Folk Against Fascism

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM

"so kindly spare me your white middle class patronising"


Hmmmm....afraid you'd have a bit of difficulty squeezing me into that box.


"You very likely don't sing the ballads."

On the other hand, I very likely do. A glance into Christopher Hill's 'Liberty Against the Law', especially the chapter on the Robin Hood ballads, may enlighten your ignorance.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:50 AM

"Identity is important and if somebody questions your identity based on false criteria it can be offensive."

My last word on this, because frankly I think it's quite daft. Plastic Paddy refers to a false construct of Irishness. I first heard it used by Irish people themselves, referring to commercialised attempts to co-opt their culture.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: melodeonboy
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 04:19 AM

Well said, Ruth. Common sense really!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 04:21 AM

My last word on this, because frankly I think it's quite daft. Plastic Paddy refers to a false construct of Irishness. I first heard it used by Irish people themselves, referring to commercialised attempts to co-opt their culture.

In which sense it is used in Ireland to describe Oirish Americans.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 04:55 AM

Ruth, you are right. That is true.

It is also true that it is used as a term of abuse.


In circumstances where your definition appklies, you are right, it isn't offensive.

In circumstances that have witnessed, it is.


This isn't an argument, more of a jigsaw.

You aren't wrong and I'm not contesting your observation, I am adding another piece of the picture that you may be unaware of.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM

I've just thought this issue through again on the plastic paddy thread below the line and I've changed my miind.

I think the term is offensive.

For my reasons see the other thread.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:14 AM

And is some folk self describe themselves as plastic Paddies, who is being offended? The meaning is quite clear, someone who adopts a commercialised irish personna ( like waiters, barmaids and entertainers in Irish theme pubs). If it is lucrative, the perpetrator is honest, and actually entertains audiences who freely go to be entertained, knowing that the musician is about as Irish as yorkshire pudding, what kind of puritan prodnose would wish to be 'offeneded'.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

"On the other hand, I very likely do. A glance into Christopher Hill's 'Liberty Against the Law', especially the chapter on the Robin Hood ballads, may enlighten your ignorance"

Sorry I,m really not THAT interested in what you sing or don't sing,mor what you read or don,t read, my remark was one of flippancy more than anything.

Currently listening to Highway 61 Revisited, Bob Dylan, specifically Desolation Row, very appropriate indeed.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

i find dylan really hard to understand, i love his songs.. just sung by someone else lol

jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM

Agreed, The Byrds, Fairport Convention and Manfred Mann are the top interpreters of Dylan in my opinion. Give a listen, particularly, to Fairport's version of Percy's Song from their Unhalfbricking recording. The vocals of Sandy Denny with Ian Matthews guesting are supburb.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM

Give a listen, particularly, to Fairport's version of Percy's Song

I tried, but I couldn't sit through it - the sound's just too sweet. But Dylan's version nails me to the spot every time, all seven minutes of it. De gustibus eh?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM

"Agreed, The Byrds, Fairport Convention and Manfred Mann are the top interpreters of Dylan in my opinion. Give a listen, particularly, to Fairport's version of Percy's Song from their Unhalfbricking recording. The vocals of Sandy Denny with Ian Matthews guesting are supburb. "

Frankly, I'm not THAT interested in what you listen to. Your persistent use of the comma instead of the apostrophe, however, I find very intersting.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:58 AM

An interesting interpretation of Dylan, which just occurred to me, is the Julie Driscoll/Brian Auger Trnity version of This Wheels On Fire, The Band do a fantastic live version of this as well (there are videos of both versions on Youtube).

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 12:00 PM

"Your persistent use of the comma instead of the apostrophe, however, I find very intersting."

my problem not yours, sunshine... *LOL*

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 12:07 PM

"I find very intersting."

I too find this intersting!"

Unless you are absoloutly brilliant at it, I'd leave comments about grammar, spelling and typing out of it!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 12:26 PM

Silas, I missed THAT, thanks for pointing it out. *LOL*

Actually the keyboard I've taken to using lately (out of neccesity I might add) is a French language rather than an English language one, some of the characters are in a different postion, still getting used to it.

"I find very intersting."

let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone....*LOL*

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:11 PM

Come along now folkies, no squabbles needed here! And TheLeveller - why now, surely you're too savvy to need to use details over grammar as ammo to quash an online quibble, innit?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM

Just found this further up the thread:

"Peter Bellamy was a Right-Wing Traddie, and he was quite possibly the only world-class Genius the Folk Revival ever produced."

Now there's a debatable statement if I ever read one! The 'only' world-class Genius? I assume this means that you liked Peter Bellamy, SO'P?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:42 PM

i get the importance of decent grammar,but surely what is more important is getting your meaning across, spelling mistakes.mmmm.. not me!!!! lol as long as it makes some sort of sense, then, hey go for it!

i think most spelling mistakes are a product of being passionate and trying to type things as you hink them (t).

take care all

jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:44 PM

Slight thread drift alert

Received an email from colleague (cultural festival manager) today re needing ideas to promote the One World One Essex initiative. And I mentioned the threads like this and others and said that I would like to see monthly multicoultural folk sessions in pubs, schools or village halls and big festival in large venue yearly.

The Arts development people and the aforementioned (cultural festival manager) started getting all excited and said I should apply for a small arts grant (£2500) to kick it off the ground. Now they want me to talk to the Diversity manager for advice.

Thoughts?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:07 PM

Now they want me to talk to the Diversity manager for advice.

Any funding is good funding, but my heart sank a bit when I read the D-word. "English traditional and other traditional" strikes me as just the wrong approach - as if English traditional music calls out to pure-bred English yeomen (yeopeople?) and excludes everyone else, and an alternative needs to be laid on for everyone with migrant roots. In actual fact English traditional music is automatically appreciated by a relatively small proportion of people of any extraction - and it can be appreciated by just about everyone, of any extraction. The relationship between English traditional music and England is historical, not ethnic - it's 'our' tradition in the sense that we live here.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM

"Peter Bellamy was a Right-Wing Traddie..."

Actually I thnk you're wrong, I've heard he was more of a free thinker..mind you with some of the left wing that would be tantamount to being right wing.....or being politically unreliable.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM

Rifleman ,never mind what you think, I bloody well knew him .
my opinion is that he was a fairly CONVENTIONAL Conservative ,although his background was much more extreme,I would never have described him as a free thinker[that is very funny],he was in my opinion an excellent performer,and why the fu## he has been dragged into this load of cobblers ,I do not know.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM

I suppose we will have somme eejit tell us next ,that he believed in free love

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 07:01 PM

There is some good news here. The BNP crap has been tried before, here in the States by none other than that old corporate fascist, Henry Ford. He was a devotee of what he considered to be "American" and presented performances by various people from different countries wearing their native outfits to be run through a special stage machine that wiped out all traces of ethnicity and made them "truly amurican". He was also a devotee of country dance, (English also) and collected fiddlers and their repertoire. He tried to interest his followers in this "wholesome" pursuit as an antidote to their "furrin'" habits. It didn't and couldn't work.

Stirring up hatred for immigrants is a cyclical pastime. It never lasts over the long haul.
We have our spate of crazies here in the States that are reaching the media but although
they are considered "newsworthy" most Americans are disgusted with this xenophobia.

At one point in time, there was a bill to establish the "Square Dance" as the national one of America. Thanks to the lucid and informed understanding of Bess Lomax Hawes, this
ridiculous idea was abandoned.

My point: The more in depth we know of a culture, and the more information disseminated about it, the less it can be appropriated by racists or xenophobes with
an agenda.

Let's know more about English traditional culture and let it enlighten the way and turn the rock over to reveal the roaches.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 03:31 AM

I really wish y'all would listen (read) closely what Frank Hamilton is saying. He's really 'been there and done that'. Arguing over this type of thing detracts from FAF, it doesn't add to it. Hell, the BNP is likely laughing itself silly over the behaviour of people here. If I have offended anyone, message me. Let the BNP wash its dirty underwear in public. One would hope that at least we could be above that.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 04:25 AM

Frank Hamilton. "Let's know more about English traditional culture and let it enlighten the way and turn the rock over to reveal the roaches."

I agree absolutely. The more one looks at the folk culture of any nation, the more one realises how utterly unrepresentative of that nation it really is. EG., English folk culture is heavily permeated by Scots and Irish influences, to say nothing of influences from mainland Europe.

To further muddy the waters, nationalists have been doctoring and manipulating "native" folk culture for centuries, whilst passing it off as the real thing.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 06:36 AM

See face book, 1,000, 000 united against the BNP>


http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8644741474

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM

Fred, interesting post,English culture has of course permeated Irish music too,[all those pattern dances]hardly surprising since Ireland was under complete English rule until 1921.
[To further muddy the waters, nationalists have been doctoring and manipulating "native" folk culture for centuries, whilst passing it off as the real thing.]quote Fred M.
so have others notably Bert Lloyd[I think we are the richer for his efforts]
even Cecil Sharp ,was guilty of this,by bowdelerising manuscripts,and by being selective in that which he chose to record.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 08:16 AM

I find very intersting."

let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone....*LOL*

Touche! Sorry can't find the accent. LOL!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Mick Tems
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 08:36 AM

I worked as a senior journalist on Cardiff's evening paper, the South Wales Echo, and I was all too familiar with the odious, ugly and repugnant policies of Nick Griffin. Griffin used to live in Penarth, the seaside resort adjoining Csrdiff, and later he ended up moving to a cottage near to Welshpool, Powys.

The BNP had its roots in the National Front, the proto-fascist gang of thugs and hooligans. As a young reporter working in Ilford, I was only too aware of the shady criminal groups the NF fed on - for example, one notorious NF leader, Ron Tear, had a shrine glorifying Hitler is his council flat (front page lead, the Ilford Recorder) and another NF leader, postal worker John Cook, was sentenced for stealing loads of valuable mail.

The BNP may have played down their fascist connections to lure and net the gullible public, but their leadership is out-and-out fascist and racist all the same, and they don't care who is trampled on in their crazed lust for power.

I signed up with FAF, and I'm proud to stand up and be counted. I dearly love Welsh traditional music, its practices and ceremonies, too much to see it hijacked by rightist thuggery.

Mick Tems

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 09:26 AM

Well said Mick, perhaps this will get the thread back on track.

Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM

I reported on many far-right incitement to racial hatred and public order trials, none so bizarre as those of the Dowager Lady Birdwood who never, unfortunately, got what she deserved. Here's what Searchlight had to say about this vile and nasty piece of work in 2000 after she died:

A very English extremist

Just a glimpse of what we are up against; the extreme voice of Britain's establishment. However, membership of FAF passed 3,000 this morning in under two weeks. Hurrah!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 01:19 PM

thanks ECHO.
I am fairly sure that Nick Griffins father ,was a member of the National Front,he used to live in Huntingfield[near Halesworth] in Suffolk,and may possibly[my memory may be playing tricks]have stood as a council candidate for the National Front in the early 1980s.
his father used to live at Cratfield road huntingfield

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM

é
this what you're looking for...yeesh some people are slow!

anyway enough of this bantering (tryng not to *LOL*)..the subject matter of this thread is far more important

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 02:00 PM

the extraordinary thing,is that there were no black ,jewish, asians,living in Huntingfield in the 1980s,and probably arent any now.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TenorTwo
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM

You're quite right about Griffin's father and, yes, he did stand as an NF candidate (I forget the exact year - must have been about 1984). My recollection of the electoral roll for Huntingfield is that - if my memory serves me correctly - it consisted of precisely nine names, three (or possibly four) of which were Griffin. The council seat was Huntingfield, Walpole and a couple of other villages, so that evened up the odds!

Me? I was wearing out shoe leather and car tyres for another, and in that area, equally hopeless cause!

T2

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM

"Nick Griffin comes from a wealthy right-wing family. His father, Edgar was a Conservative party member, involved in Iain Duncan Smith's campaign for election as party leader until he was discovered answering a BNP hotline in the absence of Griffin's mother who had also stood as a BNP candidate against Duncan Smith in during the 2001 general election."

quoted from Here

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 02:37 PM

Rifleman,
there is nothing to beat having been there,as I was,and Tenor Two was, in 1984,that is how we know,about Griffins father.
these little details are often not included in computer information.
I knew Peter Bellamy,not really well, but enough to know his politics,he was a Conservative[but not the Griffin variety],neither was he [imo] a Freethinker,so please,stop repeating hearsay codswallop.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM

Get over it, sunshine, it's simply not of any import, except maybe to you and one or two others. That's the past, we have to deal with the here and now

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

i haven't caught up yet but thought i ought to tell you that there is a new troll about under the name.
   tam lower stoke.

i am the root of your' problems richard!! the impersonater was.....me   PMSL!!

i am happy to be the target this time!!

they say you have all been talking about me, i trust you lot enough to know that any problems you have with me you would approach me directly, as i would with any or you.

take care all

jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 03:51 PM

"é"
Love your accent.

Can't read anything on this screen so off until Monday.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 04:16 AM

Re Nick Griffin's father and NF associations. Griffin dates his 'career' in ultra rightism from age 15, when he was taken to a NF meeting by his father.

BTW. I was waking up this morning, which is always a slow process with me, and I had the radio on. During the review of the morning papers, I thought I heard the announcer say that Nick Griffin's great grandfather had been a travelling hawker. Is this true or was I dreaming?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 06:19 PM

It's nearly May Day in England in 1944 and what is needed is something to cheer up war-torn England. Here is a delightful film that has the village children electing their May Queen and then the celebrations themselves.

This film should fill you with patriotic pride:-

Springtime in an English Village (1944)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 09:13 AM

Around 80 anti fascists gathered outside a grotty hotel in Blackpool on saturday to protest at a BNP victory rally being held there.

Four BNP supporters could not resist coming across to give the Hitler salute and chant the names of concentration camps at the anti fascists.They were arrested.
ifor

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 09:41 AM

Vic,thanks for the clip of the film,it was quite interesting.
so were the comments.
one thing it did not do was make me feel patriotic.
however, both of us might have felt differently had we been there in 1944.
personally,I respect ALL those people who fought against Hitler,I know I would not be alive today but for all their efforts.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 10:15 AM

the war took more than peoples lives, it took their humanity too.

i can't imagine being one of the soldiers who had to do those things. how do you carry on with that on your' concience?

even those people who don't know it, owe our brave boys and girls their thanks.

take care all

jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 11:42 AM

Good find Vic. I take it BNP aren't interested in using it!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

Springtime in an English Village (1944) reminds me rather of a cross between an Ealing film and This Pack of Lies
note the music used and compare with that used in Springtime in an English Village

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: glueman
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 12:19 PM

600?