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Billy Bragg and incitement to violence

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fairplay 12 Jun 09 - 07:35 AM
The Borchester Echo 12 Jun 09 - 07:59 AM
GUEST,Puck 12 Jun 09 - 08:17 AM
Jack Campin 12 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM
theleveller 12 Jun 09 - 09:20 AM
Morris-ey 12 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM
banjoman 12 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM
Ringer 12 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM
theleveller 12 Jun 09 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,Silas 12 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM
johnadams 12 Jun 09 - 10:37 AM
theleveller 12 Jun 09 - 10:38 AM
The Borchester Echo 12 Jun 09 - 10:46 AM
Bryn Pugh 12 Jun 09 - 11:01 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 09 - 11:05 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 12 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM
Ringer 12 Jun 09 - 11:30 AM
theleveller 12 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM
JeffB 12 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM
Mrs.Duck 12 Jun 09 - 01:06 PM
Little Hawk 12 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM
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TheSilentOne 12 Jun 09 - 01:52 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM
Banjiman 12 Jun 09 - 02:08 PM
Ernest 12 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,wordy 12 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM
Jack Campin 12 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM
Paul Burke 12 Jun 09 - 02:25 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 09 - 02:34 PM
Ernest 12 Jun 09 - 02:36 PM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Jun 09 - 02:40 PM
The Borchester Echo 12 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,lox 12 Jun 09 - 02:50 PM
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Subject: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: fairplay
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:35 AM

I am disturbed that one or two people here have quoted, and seemingly endorsed, Billy Bragg's approval of political violence against the BNP.

While Bragg also advocates other action against BNP supporters, he said he was also in favour of "...duffing them up in the street..."

Gervase Webb described Bragg as "humane and reasonable as ever". Is this the same person or do the words "humane" and "reasonable" have a different meaning here?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:59 AM

BB is, as usual, quite right.
Duffing up the BNP in the street is the epitome of reasonable behaviour.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:17 AM

I am sure some of Bragg's comments were born of the recent election successes of otherwise fringe parties. But to put this success into context you have to examine the cause of their success, and our politicians themselves are the architects of the recent election results. Recent events have shown politicians of all 'political colours' cannot be trusted, with only a few showing the expected and required moral conscience. Time for a complete clean sweep! Lets have a major change I say.
Offloading or attempting to offload blame onto, first of all onto the Speaker, Martin, and then trying to fob their collective blame onto getting rid of Brown, just indicates what a shower of s**t they are. In altering the focus in this fashion they think they can spin their way clear of any blame, but blame rests with them for the recent success of racists! Cameron's lot are no better - probably worse! So don't lets swallow their bullshit any longer. Prune out the useless and rotten and throw them out to wither.
Bragg's reaction is entirely understandable. The idea that M.P.s wickedness has lead to more support for the likes of the BNP during the recent elections makes me livid. More power to his elbow!
Remember the Peasants revolt of 1381?
Time for the peasants to revolt again and cut this cancer out of Government!


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM

we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em
we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em

some a dem say dem a niggah haytah
an´ some a dem say dem a black beatah
some a dem say dem a black stabbah
an´ some a dem say dem a paki bashah

fashist an di attack
noh baddah worry ´bout dat
fashist an di attack
wi wi´ fite dem back
fashist an di attack
den wi countah-attack
fashist an di attack
den wi drive dem back

we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em
we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em

- Linton Kwesi Johnson, "Fite Dem Back"

And that goes for you, you gutless anonymous turd.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:20 AM

fairplay, it's called fighting fire with fire. The BNP are a bunch of fascist thugs who have no compuction about about using violence at any opportunity. Like I said elsewhere, take a look at the picture in the Manchester Evening News of Griffin's entourage of bodyguards - ugly thugs standing guard over the door of a pub where he was holding court - same uniform, same shaved heads (not that I've anything aganst that LOL!), same Hitler-inspired pose with hands clasped in front of them.

Denying that the BNP are violent thugs is pretty much tantamount to holocaust denial - exactly what you'd expect from a load of lying scumbags.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Morris-ey
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM

Opposing any legal political party with violence is to be exactly like those you condemn.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: banjoman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM

I agree that the reason for the election of BNP candidates is down to the actions of a lot of MP's of all political colours. I despise all forms of racism and violence but am now really concerened that these people claim to represent our views in the european parliament.
I hope that by the time of the next election a few more people have come to their senses and recognised the BNP for what they are and give them short shrift at the ballot box


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

Billy Bragg? Who he?

I know of a singer-songwriter of that name, but not of anyone qualified to comment on political issues.

Equally, I don't listen to David Beckham nor Paris Hilton on politics, either


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:13 AM

"Opposing any legal political party with violence is to be exactly like those you condemn. "

Defending yourself against the violence of the supporters of a so-called legal political party, however, is not.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM

"but not of anyone qualified to comment on political issues."


I would have thought that everyone was qualified to comment on political issues...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:37 AM

Ringer wrote:

Billy Bragg? Who he?

I know of a singer-songwriter of that name, but not of anyone qualified to comment on political issues.


He's been a political activist for years as a bit of simple research would have shown.

Beckham and Hilton have not and don't speak on politics anyway.

Bragg on Wikipedia


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:38 AM

"I know of a singer-songwriter of that name, but not of anyone qualified to comment on political issues.

Equally, I don't listen to David Beckham nor Paris Hilton on politics, either"

Who do you listen to, Ringer? Who, exactly, do you consider qualified to comment on political issues? I'm dying to know.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:46 AM

Billy Bragg is a frequent and eloquent contributor to Newsnight, Question Time and Today and lends weight to a number of worthwhile causes.
He is well-qualified and has every right to comment on political matters.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:01 AM

What Jack Campin said.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:05 AM

Billy Bragg's just lovely. I couldn't listen to anything he said without nodding and smiling...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

"I am disturbed that one or two people here have quoted, and seemingly endorsed, Billy Bragg's approval of political violence against the BNP"
One of them wass and is me..sorry I'm not one your peace and lovet-dovey advocates when it comes to scum like the BNP.

"...duffing them up in the street..."
you bet...! don't like it?then don't hang around with me, it's that simple.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:30 AM

Just because he is a frequent contributor, Borchester Echo, doesn't make him "well-qualified." And "worthwile" is, I think, in the eye of the beholder. Of course he has "every right" to comment, just as I have every right to consider him narcissistic and self-opinionated. As exemplified by his proposals for tactical vote-swapping, like all today's bien pensant left he is incapable of entertaining the possibility that anyone who disagrees with him can have motives other than ulterior; that way tyranny lies.

On politics, theleveller, I listen to many (I've even listened to Billy Bragg speaking, although as far as I'm aware I've never heard him sing). But I can think of no-one who represents the totality of my views. Tony Benn (who once represented me, though I never voted for him) agreed with me on the EU but not on the place of the State; Margaret Thatcher was closer. Basically, I am an old-fashioned liberal (with a small "L"). I believe with Locke that the smaller the State the better, that there is no intrinsic benefit in public spending and I am inclined to say, "bugger you," to authoritarianism, whether that authoritarianism be of the left or the right.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM

"I am an old-fashioned liberal "

Well it's not old-fashioned liberalism as I know it (except, maybe the "bugger you" to authoritarianism LOL!).

Right now, I'm off to liberally indulge my need for a pint or two.

Peace and love (except to the BNP).


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: JeffB
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM

What's this thread doing here anyway? This part of Mudcat is supposed to be about music and allied topics. If you want to talk politics and duffing up people in the street, you can do it in the BS section.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:06 PM

Billy Brag probably knows more about politics than most. The fact that his chosen medium for putting forward his views is music rather than standing for government in no way detracts from his qualification to speak on political matters. Unlike some politicians he speaks freely about his views and is happy to answer questions without avoiding the issue.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM

Fear is what drives people to violence.

Remember the conversation between the Jack Nicholson character in the movie "Easy Rider" and the two bikers ("Billy" and "Captain America")?

The bikers are complaining about the hostility they're getting from southern rednecks as they travel through the American South.

Nicholson says, "They're afraid of you."

Billy says, "It don't make them run away, though..."

Nicholson (a local boy) says with his usual sardonic grin, "Nope. It makes 'em dangerous." In a scene shortly following that one a group of rednecks attack the sleeping trio in the middle of the night, and Nicholson gets his skull smashed in with a baseball bat.

The thugs in the BNP are deeply afraid of foreigners. They're afraid that they'll lose their jobs and their neighborhoods to foreigners. They're afraid of anyone who's "different" from them. That makes them dangerous.

You people who are venting your bile here at the BNP are afraid of the BNP. You're afraid of them because they aren't like you.

That makes some of you dangerous.

I would do my best to avoid being around either you OR the BNP thugs. You're both bloody dangerous, and you're both perfect potential fodder for serving a fascist course of action...under whatever righteous label you choose to stick over top of it.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:49 PM

Billy Bragg is like a Bard

some of the wiki definiton

In the 20th century, the word Bard lost much of its original connotation of Celtic revivalism or Romanticism, and could refer to any professional poet or singer, sometimes in a mildly ironic tone. In the Soviet Union, singers who were outside the establishment were called bards from the 1960s.

Irish bards formed a professional hereditary caste of highly trained, learned poets. The bards were steeped in the history and traditions of clan and country, as well as in the technical requirements of a verse technique. As officials of the court of king or chieftain, they performed a number of official roles. They were chroniclers and satirists whose job it was to praise their employers and damn those who crossed them. It was believed that a well-aimed bardic satire, glam dicenn, could raise boils on the face of its target.


If only we could raise boils on the .... No no no. We want to lance the boil that is the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:52 PM

Little Hawk: "You people who are venting your bile here at the BNP are afraid of the BNP. You're afraid of them because they aren't like you."

No. We're not afraid of them. We are disgusted by them. I feel personally affronted and degraded to be living in a country where the public has in two areas voted (even in the small numbers involved) to elect two of their vile racist fascist number to "represent" us in Europe. It's akin to the KKK having two senators elected in the US - they would not deserve to be afforded the same rights to freedom of expression as the rest of the population.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM

"It's akin to the KKK having two senators elected in the US - they would not deserve to be afforded the same rights to freedom of expression as the rest of the population."

Aye - I don't think LH, has a clue about some of what he's commenting on here (and in other threads on associated matters.)

I'd be inclined to consider affording full "freedom of expression" to such groups, as being equivalent to "freedom of oppression." (ungrammatical but correct) i.e: it it intentionally infringes substantially upon other groups freedoms, thus cannot be allowed in a free society.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:08 PM

Little Hawk, correct, I'm terrified of the BNP and what they would do to our democracy (imperfect though it is). of I'm also terrified what they want to do to some of my friends who happen to have ancestors born outside of this country.

Do I want to beat them up? Well in some ways, yes.

I'm not going to though as this would make me as bad as them.

A bit like a state killing murderers or waging a war on terrorism, you end up becoming the perpetrator of a greater crime.

I'll argue them down..... and defend myself when I need to though.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ernest
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM

Fighting fire with fire?

Or fighting thugs by becoming a thug yourself?

This does only increases the number of thugs (even if they`re of different coulours, they are still thugs).

Let those BNP members who got elected make their speeches and they will very soon show what fools they are. And after a while they will start to fight among themselves (usually over the abuse of money for private purposes).

Regards
Ernest


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM

There will come a time when violence is necessary. Those who stood in Cable Street and denied Moseley's Blackshirts knew this. A virus is a virus and it must be killed if possible before it becomes an epidemic. Every inch given is an inch gained by the BNP.Best to stand our ground now and say no further, or even "they shall not pass".
With these thugs it's already a declared war and talking won't stop them, and neither will flowers in the barrels of their guns.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM

You people who are venting your bile here at the BNP are afraid of the BNP. You're afraid of them because they aren't like you.

Speak for yourself. I have much the same ethnic and class background as most BNP organizers. And I was brought up to share a lot of the same ideas. They're much like my family.

A lot of my family are scum, too.

(I guess it'll be a cold day in hell before "Little Hawk" comes up with any constructive help in defeating fascism - cut the weasel words and just fess up to which side you're really on).


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM

So it is wrong to attack racists, but by your argument do you think it is ok for racists to attack peopel because in their opinion they have the wrong skin colour??????


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM

I agree that violence isn't *really* the way. But Billy Bragg is just such a dear. Couldn't find it in me to take the boy to task on anything...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:25 PM

"fairplay"- new member, 3 posts, all supporting the BNP.

Ignore the slimy little snot.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:34 PM

"Speak for yourself. I have much the same ethnic and class background as most BNP organizers."

Ditto.
Not like me? Yes they are. I'm very, very familiar with the people the BNP are targeting. White, working-class, Essex is prime BNP turf. More BNP candidates here than anywhere in the country. And I personally know plenty of white-working class people (including family) who are either actively racist due to cultural default (it's *expected in order to be accepted* in many working class professions and social groups) or otherwise tempted by BNP propaganda. Some of them are blokes raised that way, some are genuinely nice but unthinking consumers of right wing propaganda.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ernest
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:36 PM

@ SPB-Cooperator(I presume your remarks were directed at me):

I never said that it is ok for racists to attack other people. It is not. Also I wasn`t referring to skin-colour but to political colours (Nazis = brown, Communists= red).

It is ok to defend yourself or others against ONGOING attacks.

Attacking yourself while there is no attack going on or about to start is not self defense.

Regards
Ernest


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:40 PM

Personally I find that the written and spoken word is by far the greatest weapon


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM

I'm not afraid of the BNP, I despise them and anyone taken in by them. In particular, I'm disgusted by those who whinge that they're a "legal" political party and thus "entitled to their views". No, they're not.

Wordy mentioned the Battle of Cable Street when eastenders repelled the Mosleyite thugs under the slogan ¡No Pasarán! My old Foreign Editor Sam Lesser, the son of Jewish Polish immigrants and now aged 94, was there and shortly afterwards, left for Spain to fight in the International Brigades against Franco.

Last Tuesday, the second day of Folk Against Fascism, he was on the Today programme being interviewed along with the Spanish ambassador to mark the occasion of the last few surviving veterans being granted Spanish citizenship as a mark of respect for their bravery, albeit unsuccessful since the Spanish people were oppressed by Franco the fascist for the next four decades. Although I'd sworn never to use Facebook, I joined up instantly just to join this group.

If the International Brigaders had the bottle to stand up to fascism with whatever arms they could lay hands on, so should we.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:50 PM

"You people who are venting your bile here at the BNP are afraid of the BNP. You're afraid of them because they aren't like you."

LH,

You aren't paying attention.

Its time to find out what you're talking about because you're starting to come across like you're being wilfully ignorant.

Here is the news!

The BNP are a white supremacist party, who believe that non white people should be expatriated from Britain.

They do not support their views with arguments or evidence.

They support their views with violence.

They also believe that homosexuality should be outlawed and they believe that disable dpeople are a drain on resources.

Again, they do not support these views with evidence or argument, they do so with violence.

A lot of cowardly vicious remorseless violence, only made even less palatable by their apparent enjoyment of it.

I know many people of Asian and African origin who have been forced to defend themselves from grievous assault.

I know white people who have disagreed with the BNP and been hospitalized as a consequence.



So what .....


... here's what.



They know and I do that the BNP must never be allowed to flourish.

They stand for the same politics as the Nazi's of world war II and would repeat those crimes if they ever got into power.

The Bile you talk about is utterly justified.



On the question of people being "different" - it's bad enough that you should presume to be so judgemental, but what makes my blood boil most about your comments is that they are based on utter ignorance of the subject.

When the Nazis rise again, what will you be doing?

Persuading people that we all need to be more tolerant of them?

Forming the new Vichy Government?

or will you be in the back of one of their lorries wishing you'd listened as they dispose of you for being another 'face don't fit' liberal.


Before you begin to assert any point of view about who you perceive the BNP to be, you need to do a bit of field research.

Come to the UK and go and drink in a BNP pub and tell them that you think Blacks and whites should be allowed to live in peace.

They'd love you - the laughter would be dark and evil as they made sport out of spilling your blood.

I am not afraid of them, but I know plenty of people who are - and it isn't because they are different, it is because thay have had their heads kicked around like footballs for looking different and because people like them have had knives forced between their ribs for the same reason.


Blither on aboout your theoretival fanasy worls if you like, but we in the UK are coming to terms with the shock that there are two Nazis representing us in the European Parliament.


I had thought Azizi a bit harsh when she commented that you were free to philosophize from 5,000 miles away in the comfort of your white skin, but I am only a whisker away from echoing her comments.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:13 PM

Well, you know what Little Hawk, it's a damned googd thing I don't listen to people like you. I said off the top, I'm no peace lovey-dovey type. It's highly unlikely I,m going to stand there and do nothing while some BNP thug tries to have a go at me, because I,m NOT like him/her. (I've also stated elsewhere that I,m a non-white immigrant, the perfect BNP target...not)


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:36 PM

Phew, you lot are really brave.

The BNP and their ideas terrify me.

Doesn't stop me wanting to stand up to them though.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:39 PM

"I had thought Azizi a bit harsh when she commented that you were free to philosophize from 5,000 miles away in the comfort of your white skin"

It must be comforting to be able to do that, not all of us have the choice of that luxury.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM

I saw Billy Bragg on Question Time a while ago when he said ' .. if Scotland wants its Independence/government then we should give it to them' and I thought what a nice man!
No I didn't, I thought what an uninformed, patronising shit! Who were 'we' to decide what a people wanted?
If the BNP are to be marginalized and discredited it has to be done through democratic methods, the government of the day has to adopt policies, more jobs and housing, which will undermine the BNP's vile propaganda. Giving individual members a 'duffing' (a slap, a kicking, a stabbing?) is not the way in a civilised society. We have evolved a society wherein one's feeling of rage or revenge has to be curbed by democracy or through the courts. Can one really demonstrate anti-fascism by attacking individuals in the street?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:03 PM

So what next? If we agree it's OK to beat the shit out of a BNP member, do we agree that it's OK to beat the shit out of a convicted paedophile, or do we agree that teenage criminals should be birched, and do we then agree that it's OK to hang people convicted of murder?

Jim is absolutely correct, if we wish for a society which is based on peace, democracy and individual freedom, there can be no dual-standards. By descending into violence, we hand them an excuse for their policies, and give them victory on a plate.

They can only be defeated by political will, social policies and education. A thug is a thug, whatever his politics. IMHO.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:03 PM

And why is this above the line?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:09 PM

LH, there is a crack in the logic of your post (with which I mostly agree). You used a one-to-one correlation, when the truth is one-to-many: While lack of understanding something can be the cause of fear, it is not the only possible cause. There are plenty of other possibilities, including understanding well the object of fear. When you've seen someone proclaiming XXX beat someone in the streets for no reason, and then you see them coming at you, fear can be a very logical and plausible outcome too.

Yes, there may be some here whose fear is caused by lack of understanding - on both sides of the dispute. But I think this is a minority, if it exists. Many of us have seen the thing we are afraid of, in action. And not all of us would heed a call to violence except in defense (our own or of someone we value).

I understand where you are coming from, and know you from your postings to be a very reasonable person, one I'd like to meet one day. But there was a chink in the logic, as I explained, and in the heat of the discussion some took it as a sign of an apologist for the fascists (which is the wrong reaction, too).

Deep breath, everyone, and count to ten. In Urdu. Or Swahili. Or Greek.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:09 PM

None here have advocated attacking BNP members in the street.

Read my posts in the folk against fascism thread ant the oher BNP threads to know what I advocate.


Your commenst about Billy Bragg beign patronizing...

The powere to make Scotland and Wales independant or not currently resides in The Parliament in westminster.

So ifd the scottish and welsh want independance then it is the Biritish parliamnet that must grant it.

ok?

Billy Bragg is English.

so, identifying himself as such he says - if the Scottish and welsh want independance, we (the english who make up the majority of the parliament in westminster) should let them have it.

In other words, it is not our right to deny them independance.

"Who were 'we' to decide what a people wanted?"

His comment doesn't indicate that he is 'deciding' what the scottish and welsh want, it indicates that he thinks their wishes should be respected.


Billy Bragg is a well informed political commentator.

If people agree with him they are free to say so.

just as they are free to say if they disagree with him.


The quote concerning 'duffing them up in the street' sounds like a punch line at the end of an otherwise very insightful post.

His point?

That if the BNP are given a platform to debate, then it allows them to be seen for the grubby hatemongers they are.

I agree with this view as i think it serves as a means of informing people who might otherwise be tempted to join them as, a result of uncontested one sided speech making at underground rallies.

I believe an exposed BNP is weaker than an underground BNP.

I believe that as long as they are exposed, shocks like the recent one in the euro elections are less likely to happen.

Some disagree and argue that such publicity is the oxygen they need to survive.

I believe that underground they grow unsupervised by the public at which point they are able to throw more surprises at us.

Billy Braggs point is all about democracy.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM

Sorry about HTML mistake above.
It don't mean a thing.
Really!


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM

"f the BNP are to be marginalized and discredited it has to be done through democratic methods, the government of the day"

you mean appeasement...not a chance, that happened once in history, it isn't going to happen again.
It all sounds frightfully gentlemanly to me, I'm no gentleman


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:47 PM

I saw Billy a few days ago in the Pontardawe Arts Centre and he was fantastic! One of the highlights of his set was the oh so timely "You Fascists Are Bound To Lose" by Woody Guthrie and he encored with the beautiful"Between The Wars". It was a passionate and committted performance and highly political and all the better for it.

And the BNP is an organisation of thugs,bigots and race haters.
Anyone who would like to take a look at the criminal convictions of some of their core leaders should go to the website "Lenin's tomb" and scroll down.

There is plenty of stuff there about their thuggery, terrorist connections, vile racism,fascism and so on.It makes sobbering reading.And of course these people have to be challenged by anti fascists [and that should mean all of us ]..we have the warning from history to remind us what happens when the race haters gain power.
ifor


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: BB
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:51 PM

"None here have advocated attacking BNP members in the street."

Oh, really?

"Duffing up the BNP in the street is the epitome of reasonable behaviour." - 2nd post in this thread.

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:08 PM

I was endorsing Billy Bragg's (oh the shame of sharing initials with the lily-livered apologist above) entirely reasonable exhortation to duff the fascists up in the street (not necessarily literally, for the elucidation of the dim).

Eastenders (as described above) duffed up Mosley and the brown shirts in Cable Street in the 1930s and swept the scum out of town. This can be done again. ¡No Pasarán!


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:55 PM

Indeed the prescient Yorgos (whatever happened to El Greko, I liked him) beats me to it, LH. You say we fear what we do not know or understand. But the BNP we well know and understand. Although the North American continent sent troops and ships and planes to fight the forefathers in belief of the BNP, they did not run the risk of invasion, nor were they bombed. You do not know the BNP. We do.

It reminds me of the day a pilled up skin'ed started arguing with me in the pub next door (it's derelict now) about race and immigration. After a while he said "Yoo fink yor be'er van mewi don'cha?" I said "Yes" and he pulled a knife. Do you understand now?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:44 PM

BB

Ask any person on this thread if any member of the BNP should be sought out and assaulted.

You'll might get a flippant response like the ones above, but when it comes to action and organization that isn't how any mudcatters act.

Now go and check out the BNP's "redwatch" - in case you didn't know, this exists to make public the names and addresses of those who publicly oppose the BNP for the specific purpose of making it possible to seek them out and intimidate them, abuse them, put faeces in their letterboxes or physically attack them.

I specifically advocate providing information that shows who the BNP are and I advocate demanding evidence of BNP claims.

I believe that BNP advocates can easily be challenged in this way and that they should always be challenged in this way to make sure that they remain out of power.

That is how I think they should be dealt with.


However, I do agree with the 'substance' of the points made above - that BNP thugs do 'deserve' a good kicking.

The comments above suggest that they deserve it on the one hand and on the other hand they warn the BNP that if they come looking for trouble they can expect to meet with stiff resistance.

The reality is that while the above is all words, the BNP have a history of actually seeking out and assaulting people of various groups with intent to injure.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM

Also, BB, check out the language used.

You are English yes?

you have some experience of life yes?

So how often do you hear genuinely intended violence described as "perfectly reasonable duffing up"

No - this is said with bitter irony.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 12:36 AM

"So how often do you hear genuinely intended violence described as "perfectly reasonable duffing up"

No - this is said with bitter irony."

The problem is, Lox, that the written word has to be very skilfully written if feelings like 'irony' are to be conveyed. And, sadly, these nuances are easily missed by the reader, as seems to be evident on here.

BB (who is a thoroughly decent, intelligent and civilised man, and a respected political commentator) may not have intended his words to be taken literally but, unfortunately, they will be, by those who it suits or who don't have the intelligence to recognise 'irony'. As evidenced by a fair number of posts on here (some from surprising directions).

A good writer/orator needs to be unambiguous in his choice of words - coded messages aren't a good way to get a message across to the masses.

Exhortations to violence have no place in civilised society - except as the absolute last resort, and in the face of imminent attack by an aggressor. We're a long way from that place right now - two swallows do not a Summer make, and the BNP have a very long way to go before they achieve any real presence in UK politics.

IMHO
10/4


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 01:47 AM

Social policies, justice and, above all else, education are what will defeat the BNP. And through the ballot box.

TBE - "I was endorsing Billy Bragg's (oh the shame of sharing initials with the lily-livered apologist above) entirely reasonable exhortation to duff the fascists up in the street (not necessarily literally, for the elucidation of the dim)."

I, and I'm sure many others here, understand what you're saying but, unfortunately, you've missed the point. It's the 'dim' (as you describe those whom you presume to be less gifted in the grey-cell department than yourself) who are the very ones who should be spoken to in absolutely unambiguous terms, because they are the very ones who are most likely to fail to recognise 'irony' and take what they hear and read literally - and indeed they are the ones the BNP target in their quest for support. They're not trying to attract Great Thinkers - just the You're-Gonna-Get-Your-Fuckin'-Head-Kicked-In Brigade.

And do you believe that the BNP will tell their targetted public that BB was only being 'ironic' and to take no notice? Not likely - if and when it suits their purpose they will use that sort of statement as a rallying-cry to their new-found supporters. What better way to fire up hatred than by quoting public threats of violence by high-profile figures against themselves and their supporters? What better way to convince TBE's 'dim' of the paucity of the arguments of those who oppose the BNP? FFS, why hand them the ammunition?

In the War Of Words with the BNP it was a real gaffe, a bad choice of words by someone who ought to know better. Period.

I understand people's outrage at the policies and methods of the BNP. I'm outraged too. But social policies, justice, education and the ballot box - these are The Only True Path.
IMHO


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 03:21 AM

In my first year lining in UK (2003), riding a First bus in Chelmsford on my way home after work, one of those race haters boarded and commenced to striding up and down the aisle though there were seats available.

He didn't say anything to any one on the bus, but you could tell he was itching to vent on something or someone. Maybe drink or drugs was involved. Soon there was a cyclist in turban and khurta, riding just ahead of us. The skin head on the bus went mental. Screaming (and I do mean screaming) obscenities and names like "Paki" at the cyclist as we passed him.

I was stunned and afraid. I wanted to say something. Clearly the driver (older white male) the bus wasn't going to do anything, nor were other passengers. But being new to England and having a distinct foreign accent, I just bit my lip. I had planned to get off at the next stop but the young monster beat me to it. I feared he was going back toward that cyclist.

I have to say, I don't know what I'd do if that happened today. I am different than I was 6 years ago. Less fearful in many ways. I hope I would go to the driver and require that such a passenger be put off.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 04:00 AM

Rather intrigued to know why the BNP Candidate thread in BS has been closed? I thought it was very typical of many Mudcat threads in that it contained robust disagreement.

The posts much earlier on were hostile to the OP (this I have no comment on). However it wasn't closed at that point, when there were *expressions of hostility towards the OP*, but much later after those had ceased and the thread had moved on to far more general and civil debate.

As it has long moved on to more general debate, and recent postings are no different on that thread, than any other exchange of opinion as may be found virtually anywhere on Mudcat, I am puzzled.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 05:11 AM

"Rather intrigued to know why the BNP Candidate thread in BS has been closed? I thought it was very typical of many Mudcat threads in that it contained robust disagreement."

If it has, I think it's no bad thing. I'm all for robust debate, and I'm all for exposing the BNP as a bunch of fascist thugs. But the way these threads keep descending into mud-slinging matches is regrettable to put it mildly.

On the question of incitement to violence, this is a very dangerous policy to pursue. Whatever its internal makeup, the BNP for the moment outwardly poses as a peacable constitutional political party. I have no doubt it will shed that image when the political time is right. When that time arises, egg throwing and "duffing them up in the street" (if that's what Bragg actually said), will have given them just the opportunity they need to form their own paramilitary wing, and take their idiotic ideology onto the streets. There they will wreak havoc, not just amongst anti-fascists, but against all liberal/left opinion, to say nothing of Muslims, Asians, gays, trade unionists and anyone else they disapprove of.

Remember, it took just one half crazed Dutch anarchist to burn down the Reichstag. That gave Hitler all the excuse he needed to trigger off the bloodiest pogrom in history.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 07:00 AM

Fred abd Backwoodsman,

I actually completely agree with you.

It can be a mistake to wax too poetical when confronting these kinds of issues as there will always be some pedantic critic who selectively chooses some quote out of context to use against its originator.

Clear unambiguous language may be boring but it is the only way to tackle the matter.

Also, complicated conceptual arguments are a waste of time and will only result in discussions quickly becoming bogged down in irrelevant detail.


Strategies change over time as different parties evolve and grow.

The BNP have changed their style and image in recent years to try and gain more support.

They now wish to sell themselves as reasonable democratic folks and they wish to portray their opponents as undemocratic thugs.

In the old days when they were more honest, they could be confronted with the type of Irony used by Billy Bragg.

They have learned a lesson in public image from the tabloids however, that you can ruin a persons reputation by lying about them and misquoting them.

So as you say, clarity is the key.

In addition, the emphasis must be placed on production of evidence.

When an assertion is made about the BNP, it must be backed up with evidence and peoplke must be told where they can verify information given.

That way, when the BNP refuse to match you with their own verifiable evidence it becomes clear that their views are unsupported and their claims untrue.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 10:18 AM

...It's akin to the KKK having two senators elected in the US...

Well, there's David Duke ....

There's plenty of white supremecists in positions of political power in the U.S. of A. They just don't wear it on their sleeves like the BNP.

Which may make them more dangerous-


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 04:47 PM

"I am disturbed that one or two people here have quoted, and seemingly endorsed, Billy Bragg's approval of political violence against the BNP."

I have one question: wtf is "political violence"?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,Icecreammaker
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 05:39 PM

In a 2004 article in The Guardian, Bragg was quoted as saying:

The British National Party would probably make it [into a parliament elected by proportional representation], too. It would shine a torch into the dirty little corner where the BNP defecate on our democracy, and that would be much more powerful than duffing them up in the street — which I'm also in favour of.

Where's the irony? No 'political' violence here, just plain vigilanti-ism.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 05:44 PM

So, uh, the BNP loves to dish it out but hates to take it, and this makes Billy Bragg a bad guy?

Give it a rest.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 06:20 PM

Icecreammaker,

Just because you don't understand the basic construct of a humorous punchline used at the end of a serious point, nor the substance of that point, which is that democratic means are more effective (i.e he is advocating the use of democratic means) That doesn't mean that the irony isn't there.

The irony (as you clearly need it spelled out to you) is that he quips about duffing them up in the street while making a serious point about keeping faith with the democratic system, while the BNP on the other hand pay lip servie to democracy but actually go round duffing people up in the street.

You see?

No?

Its ok I don't expect you to.

Vigilantism is what the BNP do when they round up a posse to picket a Paediatricians house in Portsmouth.


Cos you know ... apparently we need to be wary of paediatricians ...


So there's two words the BNP don't understand ...

... oh I forgot ... and democracy ...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: fairplay
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 01:15 PM

The most disturbing aspect of the rise of the BNP is the re-emergence of the Far Left and its exploitation of so-called 'antifascism' to serve its own agenda.

The way Jack Campin so flippantly throws out death threats (smashing my brains in) says it all, or is that just more irony?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 02:12 PM

Fairplay,

Just in case you missed it on another thread,

Have a look at this.

BNP Press officer explains how black peoples genetic inferiority is to blame for their being more disposed than whites to violence crime etc ...

Heres the video


Would any BNP supporters, perhaps MBSGeorge, like to explain or justify the points made here?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 03:44 AM

Some perspective: background on your elected representative, Andrew Brons, in the Guardian


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: BB
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM

"the lily-livered apologist above"

You have nothing whatsoever to base that on - I have read this thread without any comment for or against, but merely drew attention to what you actually said.

It may well be that you nor Billy meant it to be taken literally, but there was no indication of that in what you said, and bearing in mind your frequently aggressive and beligerent posts, it could well have been that you meant it literally. Personally, I prefer people to say what they mean so that there can be no misunderstanding. As I'm sure you would agree, there are 'dim' people out there, or simply those who don't expect to have to read between the lines to understand what someone is saying.

As to my own stance, I am totally anti-BNP and all they stand for, and am not afraid to say so, but I am also against physical violence and would not contemplate using it in other than direct defence.

If that doesn't suit you, I am happy to agree to differ, without throwing unmerited insults around.

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:22 AM

I refer you to my post of 12 June @ 2.45 about the honouring by Spain of surviving International Brigades veterans as broadcast on Today which prompted me to join FaF.

I concluded with: If the International Brigaders had the bottle to stand up to fascism with whatever arms they could lay hands on, so should we.

Not to concur is to insult the International Brigaders, many of whom came fresh from defeating the Mosleyites in Cable Street. There are many songs about both that can and should be used to silence the fascists.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

"The way Jack Campin so flippantly throws out death threats (smashing my brains in) says it all, or is that just more irony?"

This would be laughable coming from a BNP apologist, if it wasn't so hypocritical, considering past and present tactics by said BNP


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:08 AM

"The way Jack Campin so flippantly throws out death threats (smashing my brains in) says it all, or is that just more irony?"

NO person from the BNP is worthy of shining that man's shoes. In UK argot, piss off, Fairplay.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:09 AM

But, then, I doubt he'd even consider allowing that to happen.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM

When the BNP opened its "bookshop" in Welling,South London in the early 1990s racist attacks soon began to dramatically increase.These culminated in the savage group attack on Stephen Lawrence by a gang of racist thugs. Some 60000 anti fascists marched to get the BNP HQ closed down and to protest at the attacks.
More recently ,just a few weeks ago,Nick Griffin,stood at the very spot where Anthony Walker a young black teenager was brutally killed in Liverpool again by some race haters ,to say that the attack was not racist.
Of course we can educate and organise against fascists and indeed carry out the social justice policies on housing and jobs that can undercut their appeal but we also need to confront them when they start to march and organise. It is so much easier to defeat a handful of fascists rather than a marching column of the thugs.
ifor


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:09 AM

Perhaps we can allow ( though probably not) Adolph Hitler to have the last word. When asked to account for the totally unexpected rise of his unpopular little and marginalised group into total dictators of Germany in the space of a few years, he remarked ( something like)
'Only one thing could have stopped us, if our opponents had, at the beginning, crushed us mercilessly under their heels. Once we had been allowed to gain momnentum, we were unstoppable.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:32 AM

Tug,

Agreed, but one must be sure that one cruches effectively.

If as a result of my actions the BNP get more positive publicity, or get to persuade people that I am the thug, or if as a result of my actions I end up in Jail, or indeed if a riot happens and people die, and if as a consequence the streets become that little bit less safe, then I have failed utterly.

The way to crush it is to expose the the ideology for what it really is and to expose its advocates for who they really are.

As has been pointed out numerous times on numerous threads, Britain is a multicultural society and most Brits do like this fact. Most Brits do indeed abhor the idea of scapegoating ethnic minorities, gays and the disabled. Most people love to claim that they are friends, for whatever reason, with at least one person from each of these sectors of society. Some are more sincere than others, but it is a far cry from believing they should be excluded from society.

Crush it by hanging it out to dry.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:03 AM

"...Britain is a multicultural society and most Brits do like this fact."

What evidence is there for the second half of that?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM

This site for starters.

How many anti BNP remarks are ther and how many pro BNP remarks.

Facebook - how many members of pro BNP groups and how many members of Anti BNP groups.

Most importantly - how many registered voters chose political parties with racially inclusive platforms in preference to parties with racially exclusive platforms.

I'll tell you how many 93.69% of them.

I reckon that qualifies as most.

Even without UKIP we're talking 77.87% of them.


Still most.


http://www.elections2009-results.eu/en/united_kingdom_en.html


Apart from that, just about everyone I meet with few exceptions.


Do you have evidence to counter that view?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:23 PM

He would have to Troll through the archives to find some.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM

"'Only one thing could have stopped us, if our opponents had, at the beginning, crushed us mercilessly under their heels. Once we had been allowed to gain momnentum, we were unstoppable"

Notice how Ringer and its ilk ignore this one ? *LOL*

Herr Hitler provides the opposition with the answer..the irony is quite wonderful...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM

What evidence is there for the second half of that?

Try taking the black players out of Premier League football teams. See if there is an outcry.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM

No evidence, then, I gather, Lox.

Even if I admit your figures, then 96% of a turnout of 35% is hardly "most Brits."

But I don't admit your figures, because there's a big difference between not voting BNP and liking the fact that Britain is a multicultural society.

Rifleman: I don't understand your post. I have ignored your Hitler quotation because it has nothing to say that I wish to comment on and doesn't seem to provide any answer to questions I wish to ask. You'll have to explain the irony to me, I'm afraid.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:13 PM

Well Ringer alright, I'll brak it down into sound bytes, which most can understand, note I said most....

first..."'Only one thing could have stopped us, if our opponents had, at the beginning, crushed us mercilessly under their heels.

You understand that bit I'm hoping, it's fairly obvious...

and..."Once we had been allowed to gain momnentum, we were unstoppable"

*sigh* there...go and learn those two sections by heart, there will be a test to follow.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:50 PM

Like it or not, most registered voters chose pluralist parties with explicitly pluralist platfroms.

That post ook me less than a minute to research.

It may not be comprehensive evidence, but it is evidence nonetheless.

If you disagree you may have to read what evidence is in a dictionary.



By the way, at least I provided something.


You on the other hand have have not even attempted to supply evidence to the contrary.

When you do I'll take you more seriously.

Till then, the only evidence provided on this thread supports my view and not yours.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:12 PM

So who is he a dead ringer for? 'Dead' ringer....mmmmmm, don't.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:35 AM

I've made no statements that require evidence, Lox, and have given no indication of my views on multiculturalism, so you can't contrast our views (well, you can, as you've demonstrated, but can do so only in ignorance -- but, hey, let's not let ignorance get in the way, shall we?).

You asserted that most Brits liked Britain's multiculturalism. I asked for evidence of that. You responded with irrelevant data on numbers not voting for the BNP and make assumptions about what I think.

I find very irritating the smug, sanctimonious and self-righteous assumptions of many posters here that they have the moral high ground, that any questioning of their views must therefore be malign.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:42 AM

"You responded with irrelevant data on numbers not voting for the BNP"

Wrong.

I provided evidence of the mojority choosing parties with pluralist platforms.

They chose pluralist policies in preference to racist policies.

"But I don't admit your figures"

They aren't my figures, they are the official EU election results.

It doesn't matter whether you admit them or not, they remain the reality.


"I've made no statements that require evidence, Lox,"

But you have attempted to cast doubt over my assertion as follows.

"there's a big difference between not voting BNP and liking the fact that Britain is a multicultural society."

The evidence so far still supports my assertion.

In a court of law, the casting of reasonable doubt must be supported by evidence or it is disregarded as meaningless.

Do you have anything meaningful to add?

"... and make assumptions about what I think ..."

Can you provide evidence of assumptions I have made about you?


No - I didn't think so.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:52 AM

Shucks - I've had to take nearly 30 seconds of my time to find more evidence.

Boy that was tough!!

Mori poll showing 65% preference for multicultural Britain.

That would be a majority ... ei ... erm ... most ...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:01 AM

More evidence ... (young people this time)

Which is reassuring as it shows that the next generation, ie the ones who will live with the legacy of multiculturalism, are the ones who want it most.

So as we fuddy duddied with our ingrained hang ups shuffle off this mortal coil we will leave behind a more tolerant society.

Warms the heart to know my daughter is going to live in such a mature age.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: treewind
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:43 AM

Fixed your link

A.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:51 AM

Awesome - thanks Treewind.

I forgot to test it after I posted it.

No need now.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 08:05 AM

Folkiedave
"What evidence is there for the second half of that?

Try taking the black players out of Premier League football teams. See if there is an outcry."

Try taking the black players out of our league Dave and most teams would struggle to field eleven players.
I know we would!


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:09 AM

Congratulations, Lox: evidence at last. That wasn't too difficult, was it? I accept the results of the Mori poll.

Since you ask about assumptions you have made about me, I refer you to the last sentence of your post at 16 Jun 09 - 03:50 PM, where you purport to know that my views contrast with yours.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:27 PM

Do you know how many people were quizzed in the Mori poll?

No?

1004.

Is that as comprehensive as 39% of the British population?

No.

yet it constitutes evidence and a national election doesn't?

Your icy grip on reason is looking decidedly irrational ...


hmmm ... you remind me of somebody ...


The election does serve as evidence. The Mori poll just serves to add to it.

As for your views ... your tone - right to the end - indicates an attempt to undermine my position.

We do not exist in a vaccuum and you have your motivations for needing to cross examine me.

I don't know what your reasons are, but your purported abstract impartiality indicates that you either overlooked or ignored the context of this thread and the nature of some of the exchanges, or maybe that you simply don't understand why people think this issue is so important or that you don't give a monkeys or that you are a BNP supporter looking for an opening ... I suppose their are a multitude of possible hypotheses ...

... I would venture that your comments concerning my moral high ground suggest that you felt yours was somehow threatened by my comments.[Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:35 AM]

Either way it does not matter as my position remains unaffected.

Finally, your deeply sarcastic congratulations indicate to me that reading the evidence I provided was a bitter pill for you to swallow.

Oh well.

Now - do you have something constructive to add or will you be subjecting us to more pointless diversions?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 08:16 AM

Do you know how many people were quizzed in the Mori poll?

No?

1004.

Is that as comprehensive as 39% of the British population?

No.

yet it constitutes evidence and a national election doesn't?

Your icy grip on reason is looking decidedly irrational ...


The 1004 are an unbiased sample whereas the 39% of the British population are a self-selected sample which most likely is not representative. It is conceivable that among the 61 % non-voters the opinions to some questions are very different from those of the the 39 % voters.

To trust the result from the fewer people more than the result from the many is in fact rational. Your opinion had a much higher probability of being correct than Ringer's objection even before knowing the result of a survey, but there was still a minuscule grain of doubt possible.

Ringer was kind of stubborn, but not irrational.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM

"among the 61 % non-voters the opinions to some questions are very different from those of the the 39 % voters."

Then JUST maybe they should have voted in the first place!


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:27 PM

MR. Braggs comment echoes a quote of Woody Allen that I read in another thread. I don't remember it exactly so I'll paraphrase as close as I can. I'll defend with my life the fascists right to march in the streets, then I'll meet them there with a baseball bat. He also once said: "sometimes the best way to explain things to a fascist is with a baseball bat". I don't recall anyone trying to make an issue of Woody Allen and incitement to violence.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:47 PM

eil it's been my experience that there are some people who seem to think that you can simply "talk" to the BNP membership and their ilk and everything will be alright (it won't). The BNP understands the concept of violence only too well, it's part of the foundation upon which the party concepts are built.

Mr. Bragg got it right.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Lox
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:20 PM

Wolfgang is as ever the voice of reason.

I have been reflecting on this thread and my reaction to Ringers questioning and I would like to retract what in fact do constitute unfounded assumptions/assertions about him/her.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM

A world war was fought to rid the world of fascism. Now it rears its ugly head in Britain.
And other places in the world.

There's a lesson here.

If you want to conduct a movement, you can just go around beating people up. Appeasement is a lot about violence that goes no where. Maybe some get off on beating their chests and venting their anger but no social movement was ever completed based on this.

I gather from Billy Bragg that he would encourage a social movement like the FAF as a real antidote to hot-headed and meaningless rants and raves.

"You say you want a revolution?"   

Then stop spouting and get active.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:30 PM

That comes from a man who's been there and done that. Good one, Frank. With greatest respect.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 07:09 PM

100


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