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Billy Bragg and incitement to violence

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fairplay 12 Jun 09 - 07:35 AM
The Borchester Echo 12 Jun 09 - 07:59 AM
GUEST,Puck 12 Jun 09 - 08:17 AM
Jack Campin 12 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM
theleveller 12 Jun 09 - 09:20 AM
Morris-ey 12 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM
banjoman 12 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM
Ringer 12 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM
theleveller 12 Jun 09 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,Silas 12 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM
johnadams 12 Jun 09 - 10:37 AM
theleveller 12 Jun 09 - 10:38 AM
The Borchester Echo 12 Jun 09 - 10:46 AM
Bryn Pugh 12 Jun 09 - 11:01 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 09 - 11:05 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 12 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM
Ringer 12 Jun 09 - 11:30 AM
theleveller 12 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM
JeffB 12 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM
Mrs.Duck 12 Jun 09 - 01:06 PM
Little Hawk 12 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM
VirginiaTam 12 Jun 09 - 01:49 PM
TheSilentOne 12 Jun 09 - 01:52 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM
Banjiman 12 Jun 09 - 02:08 PM
Ernest 12 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,wordy 12 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM
Jack Campin 12 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM
Paul Burke 12 Jun 09 - 02:25 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 09 - 02:34 PM
Ernest 12 Jun 09 - 02:36 PM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Jun 09 - 02:40 PM
The Borchester Echo 12 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,lox 12 Jun 09 - 02:50 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 12 Jun 09 - 03:13 PM
Banjiman 12 Jun 09 - 03:36 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 12 Jun 09 - 03:39 PM
Jim McLean 12 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Jun 09 - 04:03 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Jun 09 - 04:03 PM
George Papavgeris 12 Jun 09 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,lox 12 Jun 09 - 04:09 PM
George Papavgeris 12 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 12 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,ifor 12 Jun 09 - 04:47 PM
BB 12 Jun 09 - 04:51 PM
The Borchester Echo 12 Jun 09 - 05:08 PM
Richard Bridge 12 Jun 09 - 05:55 PM
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Subject: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: fairplay
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:35 AM

I am disturbed that one or two people here have quoted, and seemingly endorsed, Billy Bragg's approval of political violence against the BNP.

While Bragg also advocates other action against BNP supporters, he said he was also in favour of "...duffing them up in the street..."

Gervase Webb described Bragg as "humane and reasonable as ever". Is this the same person or do the words "humane" and "reasonable" have a different meaning here?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:59 AM

BB is, as usual, quite right.
Duffing up the BNP in the street is the epitome of reasonable behaviour.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:17 AM

I am sure some of Bragg's comments were born of the recent election successes of otherwise fringe parties. But to put this success into context you have to examine the cause of their success, and our politicians themselves are the architects of the recent election results. Recent events have shown politicians of all 'political colours' cannot be trusted, with only a few showing the expected and required moral conscience. Time for a complete clean sweep! Lets have a major change I say.
Offloading or attempting to offload blame onto, first of all onto the Speaker, Martin, and then trying to fob their collective blame onto getting rid of Brown, just indicates what a shower of s**t they are. In altering the focus in this fashion they think they can spin their way clear of any blame, but blame rests with them for the recent success of racists! Cameron's lot are no better - probably worse! So don't lets swallow their bullshit any longer. Prune out the useless and rotten and throw them out to wither.
Bragg's reaction is entirely understandable. The idea that M.P.s wickedness has lead to more support for the likes of the BNP during the recent elections makes me livid. More power to his elbow!
Remember the Peasants revolt of 1381?
Time for the peasants to revolt again and cut this cancer out of Government!


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM

we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em
we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em

some a dem say dem a niggah haytah
an´ some a dem say dem a black beatah
some a dem say dem a black stabbah
an´ some a dem say dem a paki bashah

fashist an di attack
noh baddah worry ´bout dat
fashist an di attack
wi wi´ fite dem back
fashist an di attack
den wi countah-attack
fashist an di attack
den wi drive dem back

we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em
we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em

- Linton Kwesi Johnson, "Fite Dem Back"

And that goes for you, you gutless anonymous turd.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:20 AM

fairplay, it's called fighting fire with fire. The BNP are a bunch of fascist thugs who have no compuction about about using violence at any opportunity. Like I said elsewhere, take a look at the picture in the Manchester Evening News of Griffin's entourage of bodyguards - ugly thugs standing guard over the door of a pub where he was holding court - same uniform, same shaved heads (not that I've anything aganst that LOL!), same Hitler-inspired pose with hands clasped in front of them.

Denying that the BNP are violent thugs is pretty much tantamount to holocaust denial - exactly what you'd expect from a load of lying scumbags.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Morris-ey
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM

Opposing any legal political party with violence is to be exactly like those you condemn.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: banjoman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM

I agree that the reason for the election of BNP candidates is down to the actions of a lot of MP's of all political colours. I despise all forms of racism and violence but am now really concerened that these people claim to represent our views in the european parliament.
I hope that by the time of the next election a few more people have come to their senses and recognised the BNP for what they are and give them short shrift at the ballot box


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

Billy Bragg? Who he?

I know of a singer-songwriter of that name, but not of anyone qualified to comment on political issues.

Equally, I don't listen to David Beckham nor Paris Hilton on politics, either


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:13 AM

"Opposing any legal political party with violence is to be exactly like those you condemn. "

Defending yourself against the violence of the supporters of a so-called legal political party, however, is not.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM

"but not of anyone qualified to comment on political issues."


I would have thought that everyone was qualified to comment on political issues...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:37 AM

Ringer wrote:

Billy Bragg? Who he?

I know of a singer-songwriter of that name, but not of anyone qualified to comment on political issues.


He's been a political activist for years as a bit of simple research would have shown.

Beckham and Hilton have not and don't speak on politics anyway.

Bragg on Wikipedia


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:38 AM

"I know of a singer-songwriter of that name, but not of anyone qualified to comment on political issues.

Equally, I don't listen to David Beckham nor Paris Hilton on politics, either"

Who do you listen to, Ringer? Who, exactly, do you consider qualified to comment on political issues? I'm dying to know.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:46 AM

Billy Bragg is a frequent and eloquent contributor to Newsnight, Question Time and Today and lends weight to a number of worthwhile causes.
He is well-qualified and has every right to comment on political matters.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:01 AM

What Jack Campin said.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:05 AM

Billy Bragg's just lovely. I couldn't listen to anything he said without nodding and smiling...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

"I am disturbed that one or two people here have quoted, and seemingly endorsed, Billy Bragg's approval of political violence against the BNP"
One of them wass and is me..sorry I'm not one your peace and lovet-dovey advocates when it comes to scum like the BNP.

"...duffing them up in the street..."
you bet...! don't like it?then don't hang around with me, it's that simple.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ringer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:30 AM

Just because he is a frequent contributor, Borchester Echo, doesn't make him "well-qualified." And "worthwile" is, I think, in the eye of the beholder. Of course he has "every right" to comment, just as I have every right to consider him narcissistic and self-opinionated. As exemplified by his proposals for tactical vote-swapping, like all today's bien pensant left he is incapable of entertaining the possibility that anyone who disagrees with him can have motives other than ulterior; that way tyranny lies.

On politics, theleveller, I listen to many (I've even listened to Billy Bragg speaking, although as far as I'm aware I've never heard him sing). But I can think of no-one who represents the totality of my views. Tony Benn (who once represented me, though I never voted for him) agreed with me on the EU but not on the place of the State; Margaret Thatcher was closer. Basically, I am an old-fashioned liberal (with a small "L"). I believe with Locke that the smaller the State the better, that there is no intrinsic benefit in public spending and I am inclined to say, "bugger you," to authoritarianism, whether that authoritarianism be of the left or the right.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM

"I am an old-fashioned liberal "

Well it's not old-fashioned liberalism as I know it (except, maybe the "bugger you" to authoritarianism LOL!).

Right now, I'm off to liberally indulge my need for a pint or two.

Peace and love (except to the BNP).


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: JeffB
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM

What's this thread doing here anyway? This part of Mudcat is supposed to be about music and allied topics. If you want to talk politics and duffing up people in the street, you can do it in the BS section.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:06 PM

Billy Brag probably knows more about politics than most. The fact that his chosen medium for putting forward his views is music rather than standing for government in no way detracts from his qualification to speak on political matters. Unlike some politicians he speaks freely about his views and is happy to answer questions without avoiding the issue.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM

Fear is what drives people to violence.

Remember the conversation between the Jack Nicholson character in the movie "Easy Rider" and the two bikers ("Billy" and "Captain America")?

The bikers are complaining about the hostility they're getting from southern rednecks as they travel through the American South.

Nicholson says, "They're afraid of you."

Billy says, "It don't make them run away, though..."

Nicholson (a local boy) says with his usual sardonic grin, "Nope. It makes 'em dangerous." In a scene shortly following that one a group of rednecks attack the sleeping trio in the middle of the night, and Nicholson gets his skull smashed in with a baseball bat.

The thugs in the BNP are deeply afraid of foreigners. They're afraid that they'll lose their jobs and their neighborhoods to foreigners. They're afraid of anyone who's "different" from them. That makes them dangerous.

You people who are venting your bile here at the BNP are afraid of the BNP. You're afraid of them because they aren't like you.

That makes some of you dangerous.

I would do my best to avoid being around either you OR the BNP thugs. You're both bloody dangerous, and you're both perfect potential fodder for serving a fascist course of action...under whatever righteous label you choose to stick over top of it.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:49 PM

Billy Bragg is like a Bard

some of the wiki definiton

In the 20th century, the word Bard lost much of its original connotation of Celtic revivalism or Romanticism, and could refer to any professional poet or singer, sometimes in a mildly ironic tone. In the Soviet Union, singers who were outside the establishment were called bards from the 1960s.

Irish bards formed a professional hereditary caste of highly trained, learned poets. The bards were steeped in the history and traditions of clan and country, as well as in the technical requirements of a verse technique. As officials of the court of king or chieftain, they performed a number of official roles. They were chroniclers and satirists whose job it was to praise their employers and damn those who crossed them. It was believed that a well-aimed bardic satire, glam dicenn, could raise boils on the face of its target.


If only we could raise boils on the .... No no no. We want to lance the boil that is the BNP.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:52 PM

Little Hawk: "You people who are venting your bile here at the BNP are afraid of the BNP. You're afraid of them because they aren't like you."

No. We're not afraid of them. We are disgusted by them. I feel personally affronted and degraded to be living in a country where the public has in two areas voted (even in the small numbers involved) to elect two of their vile racist fascist number to "represent" us in Europe. It's akin to the KKK having two senators elected in the US - they would not deserve to be afforded the same rights to freedom of expression as the rest of the population.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM

"It's akin to the KKK having two senators elected in the US - they would not deserve to be afforded the same rights to freedom of expression as the rest of the population."

Aye - I don't think LH, has a clue about some of what he's commenting on here (and in other threads on associated matters.)

I'd be inclined to consider affording full "freedom of expression" to such groups, as being equivalent to "freedom of oppression." (ungrammatical but correct) i.e: it it intentionally infringes substantially upon other groups freedoms, thus cannot be allowed in a free society.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:08 PM

Little Hawk, correct, I'm terrified of the BNP and what they would do to our democracy (imperfect though it is). of I'm also terrified what they want to do to some of my friends who happen to have ancestors born outside of this country.

Do I want to beat them up? Well in some ways, yes.

I'm not going to though as this would make me as bad as them.

A bit like a state killing murderers or waging a war on terrorism, you end up becoming the perpetrator of a greater crime.

I'll argue them down..... and defend myself when I need to though.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ernest
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM

Fighting fire with fire?

Or fighting thugs by becoming a thug yourself?

This does only increases the number of thugs (even if they`re of different coulours, they are still thugs).

Let those BNP members who got elected make their speeches and they will very soon show what fools they are. And after a while they will start to fight among themselves (usually over the abuse of money for private purposes).

Regards
Ernest


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM

There will come a time when violence is necessary. Those who stood in Cable Street and denied Moseley's Blackshirts knew this. A virus is a virus and it must be killed if possible before it becomes an epidemic. Every inch given is an inch gained by the BNP.Best to stand our ground now and say no further, or even "they shall not pass".
With these thugs it's already a declared war and talking won't stop them, and neither will flowers in the barrels of their guns.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM

You people who are venting your bile here at the BNP are afraid of the BNP. You're afraid of them because they aren't like you.

Speak for yourself. I have much the same ethnic and class background as most BNP organizers. And I was brought up to share a lot of the same ideas. They're much like my family.

A lot of my family are scum, too.

(I guess it'll be a cold day in hell before "Little Hawk" comes up with any constructive help in defeating fascism - cut the weasel words and just fess up to which side you're really on).


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM

So it is wrong to attack racists, but by your argument do you think it is ok for racists to attack peopel because in their opinion they have the wrong skin colour??????


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM

I agree that violence isn't *really* the way. But Billy Bragg is just such a dear. Couldn't find it in me to take the boy to task on anything...


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:25 PM

"fairplay"- new member, 3 posts, all supporting the BNP.

Ignore the slimy little snot.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:34 PM

"Speak for yourself. I have much the same ethnic and class background as most BNP organizers."

Ditto.
Not like me? Yes they are. I'm very, very familiar with the people the BNP are targeting. White, working-class, Essex is prime BNP turf. More BNP candidates here than anywhere in the country. And I personally know plenty of white-working class people (including family) who are either actively racist due to cultural default (it's *expected in order to be accepted* in many working class professions and social groups) or otherwise tempted by BNP propaganda. Some of them are blokes raised that way, some are genuinely nice but unthinking consumers of right wing propaganda.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Ernest
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:36 PM

@ SPB-Cooperator(I presume your remarks were directed at me):

I never said that it is ok for racists to attack other people. It is not. Also I wasn`t referring to skin-colour but to political colours (Nazis = brown, Communists= red).

It is ok to defend yourself or others against ONGOING attacks.

Attacking yourself while there is no attack going on or about to start is not self defense.

Regards
Ernest


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:40 PM

Personally I find that the written and spoken word is by far the greatest weapon


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM

I'm not afraid of the BNP, I despise them and anyone taken in by them. In particular, I'm disgusted by those who whinge that they're a "legal" political party and thus "entitled to their views". No, they're not.

Wordy mentioned the Battle of Cable Street when eastenders repelled the Mosleyite thugs under the slogan ¡No Pasarán! My old Foreign Editor Sam Lesser, the son of Jewish Polish immigrants and now aged 94, was there and shortly afterwards, left for Spain to fight in the International Brigades against Franco.

Last Tuesday, the second day of Folk Against Fascism, he was on the Today programme being interviewed along with the Spanish ambassador to mark the occasion of the last few surviving veterans being granted Spanish citizenship as a mark of respect for their bravery, albeit unsuccessful since the Spanish people were oppressed by Franco the fascist for the next four decades. Although I'd sworn never to use Facebook, I joined up instantly just to join this group.

If the International Brigaders had the bottle to stand up to fascism with whatever arms they could lay hands on, so should we.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:50 PM

"You people who are venting your bile here at the BNP are afraid of the BNP. You're afraid of them because they aren't like you."

LH,

You aren't paying attention.

Its time to find out what you're talking about because you're starting to come across like you're being wilfully ignorant.

Here is the news!

The BNP are a white supremacist party, who believe that non white people should be expatriated from Britain.

They do not support their views with arguments or evidence.

They support their views with violence.

They also believe that homosexuality should be outlawed and they believe that disable dpeople are a drain on resources.

Again, they do not support these views with evidence or argument, they do so with violence.

A lot of cowardly vicious remorseless violence, only made even less palatable by their apparent enjoyment of it.

I know many people of Asian and African origin who have been forced to defend themselves from grievous assault.

I know white people who have disagreed with the BNP and been hospitalized as a consequence.



So what .....


... here's what.



They know and I do that the BNP must never be allowed to flourish.

They stand for the same politics as the Nazi's of world war II and would repeat those crimes if they ever got into power.

The Bile you talk about is utterly justified.



On the question of people being "different" - it's bad enough that you should presume to be so judgemental, but what makes my blood boil most about your comments is that they are based on utter ignorance of the subject.

When the Nazis rise again, what will you be doing?

Persuading people that we all need to be more tolerant of them?

Forming the new Vichy Government?

or will you be in the back of one of their lorries wishing you'd listened as they dispose of you for being another 'face don't fit' liberal.


Before you begin to assert any point of view about who you perceive the BNP to be, you need to do a bit of field research.

Come to the UK and go and drink in a BNP pub and tell them that you think Blacks and whites should be allowed to live in peace.

They'd love you - the laughter would be dark and evil as they made sport out of spilling your blood.

I am not afraid of them, but I know plenty of people who are - and it isn't because they are different, it is because thay have had their heads kicked around like footballs for looking different and because people like them have had knives forced between their ribs for the same reason.


Blither on aboout your theoretival fanasy worls if you like, but we in the UK are coming to terms with the shock that there are two Nazis representing us in the European Parliament.


I had thought Azizi a bit harsh when she commented that you were free to philosophize from 5,000 miles away in the comfort of your white skin, but I am only a whisker away from echoing her comments.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:13 PM

Well, you know what Little Hawk, it's a damned googd thing I don't listen to people like you. I said off the top, I'm no peace lovey-dovey type. It's highly unlikely I,m going to stand there and do nothing while some BNP thug tries to have a go at me, because I,m NOT like him/her. (I've also stated elsewhere that I,m a non-white immigrant, the perfect BNP target...not)


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:36 PM

Phew, you lot are really brave.

The BNP and their ideas terrify me.

Doesn't stop me wanting to stand up to them though.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:39 PM

"I had thought Azizi a bit harsh when she commented that you were free to philosophize from 5,000 miles away in the comfort of your white skin"

It must be comforting to be able to do that, not all of us have the choice of that luxury.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM

I saw Billy Bragg on Question Time a while ago when he said ' .. if Scotland wants its Independence/government then we should give it to them' and I thought what a nice man!
No I didn't, I thought what an uninformed, patronising shit! Who were 'we' to decide what a people wanted?
If the BNP are to be marginalized and discredited it has to be done through democratic methods, the government of the day has to adopt policies, more jobs and housing, which will undermine the BNP's vile propaganda. Giving individual members a 'duffing' (a slap, a kicking, a stabbing?) is not the way in a civilised society. We have evolved a society wherein one's feeling of rage or revenge has to be curbed by democracy or through the courts. Can one really demonstrate anti-fascism by attacking individuals in the street?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:03 PM

So what next? If we agree it's OK to beat the shit out of a BNP member, do we agree that it's OK to beat the shit out of a convicted paedophile, or do we agree that teenage criminals should be birched, and do we then agree that it's OK to hang people convicted of murder?

Jim is absolutely correct, if we wish for a society which is based on peace, democracy and individual freedom, there can be no dual-standards. By descending into violence, we hand them an excuse for their policies, and give them victory on a plate.

They can only be defeated by political will, social policies and education. A thug is a thug, whatever his politics. IMHO.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:03 PM

And why is this above the line?


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:09 PM

LH, there is a crack in the logic of your post (with which I mostly agree). You used a one-to-one correlation, when the truth is one-to-many: While lack of understanding something can be the cause of fear, it is not the only possible cause. There are plenty of other possibilities, including understanding well the object of fear. When you've seen someone proclaiming XXX beat someone in the streets for no reason, and then you see them coming at you, fear can be a very logical and plausible outcome too.

Yes, there may be some here whose fear is caused by lack of understanding - on both sides of the dispute. But I think this is a minority, if it exists. Many of us have seen the thing we are afraid of, in action. And not all of us would heed a call to violence except in defense (our own or of someone we value).

I understand where you are coming from, and know you from your postings to be a very reasonable person, one I'd like to meet one day. But there was a chink in the logic, as I explained, and in the heat of the discussion some took it as a sign of an apologist for the fascists (which is the wrong reaction, too).

Deep breath, everyone, and count to ten. In Urdu. Or Swahili. Or Greek.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:09 PM

None here have advocated attacking BNP members in the street.

Read my posts in the folk against fascism thread ant the oher BNP threads to know what I advocate.


Your commenst about Billy Bragg beign patronizing...

The powere to make Scotland and Wales independant or not currently resides in The Parliament in westminster.

So ifd the scottish and welsh want independance then it is the Biritish parliamnet that must grant it.

ok?

Billy Bragg is English.

so, identifying himself as such he says - if the Scottish and welsh want independance, we (the english who make up the majority of the parliament in westminster) should let them have it.

In other words, it is not our right to deny them independance.

"Who were 'we' to decide what a people wanted?"

His comment doesn't indicate that he is 'deciding' what the scottish and welsh want, it indicates that he thinks their wishes should be respected.


Billy Bragg is a well informed political commentator.

If people agree with him they are free to say so.

just as they are free to say if they disagree with him.


The quote concerning 'duffing them up in the street' sounds like a punch line at the end of an otherwise very insightful post.

His point?

That if the BNP are given a platform to debate, then it allows them to be seen for the grubby hatemongers they are.

I agree with this view as i think it serves as a means of informing people who might otherwise be tempted to join them as, a result of uncontested one sided speech making at underground rallies.

I believe an exposed BNP is weaker than an underground BNP.

I believe that as long as they are exposed, shocks like the recent one in the euro elections are less likely to happen.

Some disagree and argue that such publicity is the oxygen they need to survive.

I believe that underground they grow unsupervised by the public at which point they are able to throw more surprises at us.

Billy Braggs point is all about democracy.


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM

Sorry about HTML mistake above.
It don't mean a thing.
Really!


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM

"f the BNP are to be marginalized and discredited it has to be done through democratic methods, the government of the day"

you mean appeasement...not a chance, that happened once in history, it isn't going to happen again.
It all sounds frightfully gentlemanly to me, I'm no gentleman


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:47 PM

I saw Billy a few days ago in the Pontardawe Arts Centre and he was fantastic! One of the highlights of his set was the oh so timely "You Fascists Are Bound To Lose" by Woody Guthrie and he encored with the beautiful"Between The Wars". It was a passionate and committted performance and highly political and all the better for it.

And the BNP is an organisation of thugs,bigots and race haters.
Anyone who would like to take a look at the criminal convictions of some of their core leaders should go to the website "Lenin's tomb" and scroll down.

There is plenty of stuff there about their thuggery, terrorist connections, vile racism,fascism and so on.It makes sobbering reading.And of course these people have to be challenged by anti fascists [and that should mean all of us ]..we have the warning from history to remind us what happens when the race haters gain power.
ifor


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: BB
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:51 PM

"None here have advocated attacking BNP members in the street."

Oh, really?

"Duffing up the BNP in the street is the epitome of reasonable behaviour." - 2nd post in this thread.

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:08 PM

I was endorsing Billy Bragg's (oh the shame of sharing initials with the lily-livered apologist above) entirely reasonable exhortation to duff the fascists up in the street (not necessarily literally, for the elucidation of the dim).

Eastenders (as described above) duffed up Mosley and the brown shirts in Cable Street in the 1930s and swept the scum out of town. This can be done again. ¡No Pasarán!


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Subject: RE: Billy Bragg and incitement to violence
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:55 PM

Indeed the prescient Yorgos (whatever happened to El Greko, I liked him) beats me to it, LH. You say we fear what we do not know or understand. But the BNP we well know and understand. Although the North American continent sent troops and ships and planes to fight the forefathers in belief of the BNP, they did not run the risk of invasion, nor were they bombed. You do not know the BNP. We do.

It reminds me of the day a pilled up skin'ed started arguing with me in the pub next door (it's derelict now) about race and immigration. After a while he said "Yoo fink yor be'er van mewi don'cha?" I said "Yes" and he pulled a knife. Do you understand now?


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