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BS: Plastic Paddy slur

Related threads:
BS: Are You a Real Paddy or a Plastic Paddy? (43) (closed)
Lyr/Tune Req: Plastic Paddy (Eric Bogle) (1)


GUEST,Neil D 19 Jun 09 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Jun 09 - 02:49 PM
Jack Campin 19 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Jun 09 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Jun 09 - 03:05 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 19 Jun 09 - 03:16 PM
Herga Kitty 19 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 19 Jun 09 - 03:40 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 19 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM
VirginiaTam 19 Jun 09 - 03:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jun 09 - 04:39 PM
Gervase 19 Jun 09 - 05:38 PM
Gervase 19 Jun 09 - 05:49 PM
meself 19 Jun 09 - 06:20 PM
Tug the Cox 19 Jun 09 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,Don NC 19 Jun 09 - 08:18 PM
Ron Davies 19 Jun 09 - 10:28 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Jun 09 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,Allan Connochie 20 Jun 09 - 06:34 AM
GUEST,leeneia 20 Jun 09 - 09:38 AM
plnelson 20 Jun 09 - 10:22 AM
meself 20 Jun 09 - 10:51 AM
Ron Davies 20 Jun 09 - 12:27 PM
robomatic 20 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 20 Jun 09 - 01:34 PM
meself 20 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM
Ron Davies 20 Jun 09 - 02:34 PM
MartinRyan 20 Jun 09 - 02:41 PM
gnu 20 Jun 09 - 03:03 PM
kendall 20 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM
heric 20 Jun 09 - 03:38 PM
meself 20 Jun 09 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,mg 20 Jun 09 - 05:38 PM
Joybell 20 Jun 09 - 08:24 PM
Paul Burke 20 Jun 09 - 08:39 PM
GUEST,lox 20 Jun 09 - 08:53 PM
Joybell 20 Jun 09 - 09:24 PM
Joybell 20 Jun 09 - 10:18 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jun 09 - 10:30 PM
MartinRyan 21 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM
kendall 21 Jun 09 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 21 Jun 09 - 09:26 AM
goatfell 21 Jun 09 - 10:51 AM
Little Hawk 21 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM
meself 21 Jun 09 - 11:57 AM
kendall 21 Jun 09 - 01:18 PM
robomatic 21 Jun 09 - 01:20 PM
robomatic 21 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:47 PM

I notice in the Wikipedia article Sandra linked us to that Christy Moore has recorded this song. Make whatever implications you want of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:49 PM

"My beef is with people at sessions in US bars singing overtly political Irish songs. Irish politics is not part of the experience of anyone outside Ireland and I don't feel I or any other American has any business singing about it. We can sing about lost love, no matter whether the song comes from Ireland or Mississippi, but we should leave the immortalization of Irish heroes to the Irish."


What? What percentage of Americans has Irish blood..at least 25%. So it certainly would be part of their experience. But if they have 0%, so what. They still have universal heartbreak from wars and rebellions and someone somewhere in their own families, perhaps in their own experience, had their head bashed in by some tyrant. They have every right to sing these songs, whether they understand them, the history, etc. or not. And I have a right to sing South African songs and Hawaiaan songs, etc., as long as I do not disrepect them..although I will put in a disclaimer that if they are very sacred songs then I should not. I can sing O Freedom. I can sing the Marsellaise. If I knew Polish or Ukranian I could sing their songs. I can sing Die Deganzen sind frie???.

It is like saying I can only breathe certain air. No can do. Sing what you like. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM

My beef is with people at sessions in US bars singing overtly political Irish songs. Irish politics is not part of the experience of anyone outside Ireland and I don't feel I or any other American has any business singing about it.

Many of those songs can be taken more generically. Patrick Galvin's "James Connolly" is a fine song about the leader of a movement of armed resistance to a better-armed foreign oppressor, and it would make perfect sense to dedicate it to Abdullah Ocalan, Leonard Peltier or Velupillai Prabhakaran. "The Old Orange Flute" is a spoof on bigotry which could be sung anyhere it can be explained without taking up half the evening with footnotes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:01 PM

Furthermore, what language are many of these songs in? English. A more or less universal language. And what about times like these...can someone in Iran not sing Kelly the Boy from Killane if it gives her comfort or hope or something in these times of trial? What about the Bosnian Irish band? What did they probably go through as infants or young children? These are universal songs. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:05 PM

And furthermore, we have a couple of generations in America of Cambodians and Laotians and Vietnamese etc. Should they be mocked for trying to remember some positive bits of their culture, after the horrible times they went through? What if they sing hokey (to us) songs? What if they get together once a year and sing wearing of the saffron or whatever? It is not for us to mock them. It is not for us to say that is not what they sing in Cambodia. It is not for us to imply that they are culturally or morally inferior. Same same Irish. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:16 PM

I repeat "Get real Bee-dubya-ell !!

Plastic Paddy (or whatever), there I said it with no guilty concience, describes perfectly the fakeness of the highjacking of other cultures to the commercial gods (pubs etc.... Ireland isn't special in this regard.

""My beef is with people at sessions in US bars singing overtly political Irish songs. Irish politics is not part of the experience of anyone outside Ireland"

BS!!! The reason many ofIrish descent live outside of Ireland wasbecause of politcs...for godsake read your own history....!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM

It was a friend from Athlone whom I first heard describe an Irish theme pub as Plastic Paddy...

Interesting to see that Enda Kenny's song includes Dirty Old Town, written by a Salfordian of Scottish extraction, on the list of Plastic Paddy songs (thanks Kevin). The definition of Irish songs is very elastic.

Kitty (whose great-great grandfather came over to England from Donegal in the mid 19th century.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:40 PM

"we should leave the immortalization of Irish heroes to the Irish"

I'll sing what I choose to sing, and, to be honest, I don't need yours or anyone else's approval to do it...that makes me a wanker, so be it, like I've saidelsewhere, if you're a paying member of the ausience, then I'll listen, but until that occurs, I'll carry on doing what I'm doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM

Okay, I give up. Ya'll sing whatever you want with my blessings. Sorry if my opinions have offended anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:53 PM

Crow Sister

I think you could and should sing those songs your family used to sing. Even though you are once removed from the troubles, you had first hand experience of the effect on close family.

Given your vocal ability and presence, I think you would do the songs a very good justice.

I say give it a try.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 04:39 PM

This really should be up above the line. It's a music thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 05:38 PM

To be honest the only time I've heard the term is from Irish friends, and it seems to be used in the sense of the Wikipedia definition - deriding fake or wannabe Irishness rather than as a term of abuse for someone with a bit of the Irish diaspora in them. The other phrase I've heard muttered - for the more ludicrous excesses of "St Pat's" in the USA as one example - is "Paddywhackery".
Odd, though, how it seems to be such an American trait to wish to lay claim to an Irish link. No-one seems to be quite so keen to claim an African-American link (though I can claim both in my mongrel Anglo-Irish-Franco-Cajun genes!).


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 05:49 PM

...the other end of the schtick, as it were, comes from another Irish mate who on a trip to Chicago (having drink taken) approached any attractive American girl he could find and ask, "Hey love, have you got any Irish in you?". If they shook their heads, he'd say, "Well, would you like some?!". It was only his charm, good looks and loyal mates that stopped him getting twatted a few times...


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: meself
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 06:20 PM

"It was only his charm, good looks and loyal mates that stopped him getting twatted a few times..."

Um ... isn't that what he wanted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 06:32 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Bee-dubya-ell - PM
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM

Okay, I give up. Ya'll sing whatever you want with my blessings. Sorry if my opinions have offended anyone.


Good! Mick groves, former Spinner, tells a tale of A.L.LLoyd cutting through this kind of crap when people were discussing what is folk, and who should sing it, with the comment... 'If it moves you, its folk.

As a youing man working in the company of Scots Celtics, and learniong my first orally transmitted songs. Roddy McCorley moved me..... but not to wanking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,Don NC
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 08:18 PM

I never heard of the term used anywhere only here. Teribus introduced us to it.

I think it refers to Americans who descended from Irish emigrants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:28 PM

If anybody actually read the lyrics to Eric's song it should be obvious what he's talking about. He's not running down all the songs he lists--though some might be seen as cliches.   He is talking about a wretched performer who can't or won't do justice any of the songs he sings--but still feels compelled to run through (no pun intended, of course) every song he can think of that might be popular at an Irish pub.

There's another excellent song, something to the effect of "You're not Irish, you can't be Irish--you don't know "Danny Boy"--which mentions a sizable list of songs thought to be traditional Irish by some pubgoers--but are definitely not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 06:17 AM

Correct Ron.
The main problem is that there are a lot of, presumably rather unfulfilled, people just looking for things to be 'offended' by.
They'll be making an Olympic event out of 'Offence-Seeking' before long. And there'll be plenty of Mudcatters in the line-up for the first heat! :-) :-)
IMHO, and not wishing to 'offend' any rather unfulfilled people, of course! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 06:34 AM

Bogle received a lot of complaints from cat lovers about "Nobody's Moggie Now" which was a song about a squashed cat. In response to balance things he wrote another song about a squashed dog. He's obviously got more of a sense of humour than some posters have!


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 09:38 AM

Somebody alert the media! A British-Isles male (Bogle) has found another basis for despising other British-Isles males. We can now add 'paddyism' to the. list. So far we have seen Brits despise one another for:

ethnicity (Scottish, English, Welsh, etc)

income

accent

sex (Somebody can come along and say 'Shut up, you cow.')

hair color (Don't be a redhead if you know what's good for you.)

youth (Though contempt for children seems to be dying out.)

playing instrument that doesn't have enough prestige


===========
Now they can start trouble based on knowing the wrong kind of Irish song.

You know, I don't think the music is the problem, it's the after-effects of the beer drunk while listening to it. You know, the anger and sadness we learned about in school. The anger and sadness that follow the high.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: plnelson
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 10:22 AM

I live in the Boston area, where we have a huge ethnic-Irish population.

And when it comes to stupid, simplistic, superficial stereotypes of the Irish, many of these are among the worst offenders!   What it means to be "Irish" in much of Boston is to drink green beer on St Patrick's day and sing "Danny Boy" at the top of your lungs and wear a pin with a shamrock that says "Kiss me, I'm Irish".   They know little or nothing about traditional Irish music or instruments, Irish history, Irish writers or poets, Irish politics, etc.

We have very active folk and literary communities around here, too - and the members are a diverse range of ethnicities, but I would say mostly not Irish.   And I think the non-Irish folk and literary communities here are doing a better job of preserving Irish music and literature than most of the true ethnic Irish in Southie (an Irish part of Boston) are doing.    Somebody's gotta preserve Irish culture and history!


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: meself
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 10:51 AM

Okay, now I'm confused: who are we supposed to be sneering at - and who is supposed to be taking our sneering in great good fun - the Irish-Americans who sing Danny Boy, or the non-Irish Americans who don't (but who are greater authorities on all things Irish)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 12:27 PM

At this point, perhaps we should resurrect the recent thread on "Boring Folk".   The instruction on that site for threads was: Sort by:   Vacuity or Contentiousness.

Also check out Robbie O'Connell's song (in the DT):   "You're Not Irish".

Though in my opinion even Danny Boy can be done very effectively--if you have the range for it, and do both verses.   The English attorney who wrote the poem did a great job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM

y'know there are all sorts of other words:

sarcasm

satire

parody

humorous intent

'plastic paddy' is an excellently alliterative term that may serve in all the above capacities, as well as insult.


There are as many shades of green as there are of gray.

Rob O'Matic


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 01:34 PM

Richard Thompson is on record as saying, in response to a slur against him by Shane MacGowan (something to do with Thompson being a has-been and being overated), that the last thing the world needed was another stage Irishman, no one, at the time (this was when The Pogues were at their height, they opened for RT), said a word. I'm wondering IF some people simply want to offended by perceieved racial slurs? Just asking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: meself
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM

I don't have any beef with the song (other than its implication that non-RC, non-IRA-supporters, are less authentically-Irish than RC, IRA supporters – how do the Irish feel about this?). However, it is the sort of thing that would have better remained as a musicians' in-joke. Like the private humour of medics, social workers, undertakers, and second-storey men, that of musicians and other show biz types is not always fully understood by the general public. This song should be taken as an expression of the frustration that many folkie/Irish-type musicians have felt and no doubt are still feeling at being required to perform the same handful of songs endlessly, night after night, year after year – or at being unable to get a well-paying gig because of their refusal to do so, and seeing lesser musicians get those gigs. There is no reason to expect the general public to relate to that frustration; the general public, inasmuch as they sit down in an "Irish" pub from time to time, apparently want to hear and sing along with that handful of songs. Having those songs, their singers, and the places where they are sung, mocked, is of course going to bewilder and even hurt those who are not part of the in-crowd. Eric should have saved this one for the after-party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 02:34 PM

"...those songs mocked". Wrong. Eric portrays a singer who butchers everything he does.   As I noted before, he does not ridicule every song listed.

If you think he does, that's in your head. If you don't like Eric's song, don't applaud. You'll probably survive til the next song. Or you can always leave the concert in protest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 02:41 PM

Just think of it as Bogle's revenge for what the Irish did to his No Man's Land ;>)

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 03:03 PM

Might I suggest "Exile's Son" by CARA. A wonderful tune which is devoted to the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

Tempest in a tea cup


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: heric
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 03:38 PM

I was drinking one night in Ireland in the seventies. This old guy told me he likes American tourists just fine, just "not the ones who come here and wear green doubleknit pants and all that." I had to tell him "Man, you don't understand. They're Americans. They actually DO wear green doubleknit pants."


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: meself
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 04:19 PM

"Yes he's just a plastic paddy, singing plastic paddy songs"

Of course you're right, Ron - there's no mocking of the songs there.

"If you don't like Eric's song, don't applaud. You'll probably survive til the next song. Or you can always leave the concert in protest."

Calm down - and please quote from my posts to show where I said I didn't like the song.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 05:38 PM

I think we all have favorite phrases and some we have to give up. I have had to give up long ago such phrases as Japping out, Welching around, Indian Giver. I didn't really relate them at all to Indians or Japanese or Welsh people. But this is a deliberate, I'm better than they are type of insult, and I can't believe that respectful people would use it. It is meant to insult a supposedly lower than I class of people who know more than they do about their/our heritage. I admit, I knew/know next to nothing about my heritage. L here is what I knew...potato famine blah blah blah orphans blah blah blah railroad blah blah blah starvation blah blah blah Wearing of the Green blah blah blah St. Patrick blah blah blah snakes blah blah blah descended from kings blah blah blah ....not much to build on but not much to throw away on command/edict of my social superiors either. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Joybell
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 08:24 PM

I've always disliked this song. I know it's supposed to be satire but I don't believe it works that way. It's a mean and nasty comment about other performers. It gives people a chance to sneer. His comments are not private ones, they are made to be public and as such they give nastiness a legitimate voice in the name of satire. Once a song is out there it takes on a life of its own and the character, along with intentions, of the author become irrelevant.
I understand that in the whole scheme of things this discussion seems trivial but I'm out there singing for people where it's sometimes lonely. Many of us are. There's enough nastiness.

There I've said nasty three times.
Magic three times at the Solstice.
Cheers, Joy


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 08:39 PM

I'm glad Eric found it within him to write a song that wouldn't curdle cream. He's spot on; just that the synthetic Celts sing Eric Bogle songs, or the like, as often as not. The real problem is the whinging selfcongratulation of much of what has passed for Irish folk in the last 30 or 40 years. The Troubles shrove them of the need for a self- examination once again. Sad that I haven't got WLD to argue the toss with on this one, Joybell you've got the wrong stick, never mind the wrong end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 08:53 PM

"a self- examination once again"

I know that one ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Joybell
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 09:24 PM

Cute metaphor but too cryptic for me. I'm usually rather bright too. However you've proved my point, Paul. You see how easy it is for you to fit this song into your own agenda. I'm familiar with catch-phrases and the way they can be appropriated. They are sticks with which I'm quite familiar.
Joy


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Joybell
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 10:18 PM

Joybell's trulov here: Let's start by getting a few things defined. The minute you take a cent for a performance or a song, you are a professional entertainer. however heartfelt our songs, or whatever their pretensions to social relevance, we are in show business. our supporters are not a folk community: they are a market. (and of course, we love them). for one of us to publicly denigrate one of the others is tacky and unprofessional, and always carries with it the suggestion of professional resentment or jealousy. of course, any one of us has a perfect right to do it, but it is self-demeaning. for people to support this kind of activity only demonstrates the smugness and clannishness in part of what is inaccurately called the "folk" scene.
i don't know Christy Moore personally. He is certainly a fine singer, but if anybody mentioned my name in a song like that, i would be mortified.
keep on truckin. h


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 10:30 PM

I know what you mean, Joybell. I have worried for years that Eric will mention ME in one of his satirical songs! Fortunately, that hasn't happened.

Yet. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM

Joy

Re "a self-examination once again". I suspect Paul is thinking of The Wolfe Tones, one of whose party pieces (sic) was A Nation Once Again .

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 09:17 AM

I used to sing Irish songs because I like them, even though there is no Irish in me. I do have a bit of "Scotch" in me at times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 09:26 AM

Time for some comic relief anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 10:51 AM

for god sake its only a bloody song


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

That about sums it up for me, Goatfell. ;-)

But remember....there are people in this world who spend their days searching for something, simply bloody anything, to get upset about. Really, anything at all will do. For those people, Eric Bogle's Plastic Paddy "slur" makes quite a stimulating excuse for generating a bit of outrage. Yesiree! Nothing like a bit of outrage with your tea and biscuits to start the day off right!

I think that all those people should go and picket the Australian consulate over this, don't you? (grin)


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM

There was an excellent comedian on the TV last night. Aussie bloke - looked a bit like Vin Garbutt in his younger days oddly enough - can't remember his name. Anyway he was on about people taking offence. Point was - let 'em. There is enough real pain without people taking offence at real or imagined slurs. You are all grown up people here. Remeber the old adage - sticks and stones can break my bones but names can never hurt me. Guess what. It's ture. Grow up and get over it. He put it far better of course.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

Well said, Dave. That's two of us with a sense of humour and a real sense of perspective (four including LH and Goatfell). The other miserable, moaning navel-gazing idiots need to get a fuckin' life and get offended by real issues that really matter.

IMHFO, and with every intention of offending miserable, moaning navel-gazing idiots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: meself
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 11:57 AM

Offended? You take yourself far too seriously, sir.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 01:18 PM

What happened to the free exchange of opinions on this forum?

Their opinions are every bit as valid as mine or anyones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 01:20 PM

Check out "Gaelic Song" by The Arrogant Worms and let me know if it leads you to a lawsuit. I think it's hilarious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Plastic Paddy slur
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM

C


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