Three Hole Pipes

Subject: Three Hole Pipes
From: Edain
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 03:27 PM

Just a quick shout out to see if anyone knows where I could get my hand on one of these fine instruments. Doens't need to be a particularly fancy one as I'm more testing it out for things, and similarly (for now atleast), key isn't a major consideration. Basically just something to practice on/get used to thats not going to cost an arm and a leg if it doesn't work out.

Currently UK based, although I don't know if shipping would be massively different for something like this.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM

generation used to do one.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Edain
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 03:32 PM

I saw a comment on that in a previous thread and did a google search for - "3 hold pipe" generation - but it came up with no results. Same with three instead of 3.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 03:32 PM

Here, right at the bottom

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Edain
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 03:36 PM

Thank you :)

(I've also now spotted the typo in my google search, maybe this had something to do with my failure...)

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: PHJim
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 04:31 PM

A number of years ago I had an extra D whistle and I found a drill bit that was the same size as the third hole from the bottom. I put the bit through the third hole and bored a hole in the back of the whistle. I then put tape over the top four holes and had a perfectly workable 3 hole pipe.

I'm curious as to what people are using for tabor drums. Should it have a snare? I have a seven inch one sided frame drum. Would that work?

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Weasel
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 04:37 PM

I've been using a penny whistle with all but the bottom three holes covered with tape for years - works perfectly well.

cheers

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 04:43 PM

It's apparently easier (and more traditional) with two holes at the front and one for the thumb.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 04:46 PM

The Generations can be a bit on the shrill side, even for a high D (tape up the top 3 holes on a Generation D whistle & see what I mean); for a few extra quid (or so) try the Susatos.

That said The Taborers Society favour the Generation...

And for that extra special early Christmas present there's always The Early Music Shop.

Happy tootling - Sean.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 04:52 PM

I'm curious as to what people are using for tabor drums.

I use various sizes of Darbuka, which can be had very cheaply from Knock on Wood in Leeds: the 15 cms (£16.59) is light, loud, versatile, tuneable and highly versatile.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 04:53 PM

Did I mention it was versatile?

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 04:59 PM

Edain - I used to play pipe and tabor with a morris team a number of years back. The pipe belonged to the team, so when I left, I didn't have a pipe.
I bought one of the Generation ones and it does a good job. I then got busy and ran out of time. I had just bought a Susato plastic one, but didn't play about with it until a few weeks back for morris tunes again.
What I have found is that the Susato I have is not good on the very high notes, but the Generation is much more reliable.
I think I bought both from the Music Room in Cleckheaton.

There have been previous threads on tabor pipe, so a forum search might help.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Edain
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 06:20 PM

I've ordered a Generation one, on the grounds that if it turns out to notbe useable for what I want then it's only a tenner, if it does work then I can always get a better one later on :)

I've was first introduced to them during a historical education project I work on each year, part of which we introduce school children to tudor musical instruments. Found to so easy to play I figured it was worth it, was defiantely a 2 front and 1 back hole one though.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM

Our outhouse has 3 holes. But no pipes at all that I could ever discern.

Art

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Tradsinger
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM

I would start with a Generation D,which you can get from Hobgoblin and is playable and cheap, if a little piercing on the top notes. Anything else is a jump up in price. Someone mentioned Susato, which are not too expensive. I play a Susato D for morris, which is quite loud and carries above melodeons, and a Susato C for medieval music. The C is actually much more pleasant to play and to listen to. If you want to go up market, look at the links for the Taborers Society, which someone posted above.

Good luck.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 08:02 PM

Problem with these things: the Generation is the cheapest. The Susato in high D is not much more expensive. But both of them are so high in pitch you won't be able to stand the sound long enough to learn to play it properly.

Practicing needs a much larger instrument, which comes to a lot more money.

On the other hand the high pitches are exactly what you want when playing outdoors in a public space.

There aren't many instruments where the expensive one is the one you leave at home.

I've tinkering around with a Moldavian kaval over the last year. It's similar to a 3-hole pipe in that you mainly play it in higher harmonics (though it has five holes). But it's the size of an alto flute and soft enough that you can play it for hours and not bother the neighbours (or, in its original application, your flock of sheep).

András Hodorog
Ádám Török

You often find three-hole pipes that size depicted in late mediaeval art.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Tootler
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:01 AM

I have a Generation D and a Susato Bb. The Susato is certainly easier on the ear, but like all Susato whistles, it needs a good hard blow for the higher notes. For a tabor I used a cheap kiddies frame drum - about the size of a tambourine but without the jingles.

I was getting along quite happily but didn't persist because the domestic authorities objected. Of all my various musical efforts the only things they have objected to have been the pipe and tabor and a crumhorn I had on loan once.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 01:55 AM

Although it's traditional, there's no other reason why you shouldn't experiment with instruments other than the tabor for the free hand. Perhaps duet, Dave Brady style?

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 03:48 AM

Another traditional right-hand instrument is the string drum (tambourin de Béarn) as played in the Basque Country.

Whatever you play, the drum part is the more complex one. James Blades' book on percussion instruments has some introductory hints if I remember right.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 04:41 AM

I have a Generation D Taborer's pipe, and also a Susato.

The Generation is the easier to play, but the cats object !

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 05:07 AM

I use a low-D Overton tabor pipe with my citeras (one in D, one in E) and with the bowed Crwth (concordant E & B). I've also invented a two-hole overtone pipe (Troll Pipe) which I play with the crwth drone - listen HERE. This is basically an overtone pipe with a leading note added - you can get the effect by playing a 3-hole pipe with the bottom hole & open end only.

I've got another invented instrument called a Troll Pipe in which an overtone pipe (in a very approximate F) is fitted with a bowed drone - see HERE for pics & sound sample. I might add that the mouthpiece currently on this instrument comes from the Generation Bb that features in the anecdote related HERE - so whilst in one sense I still have the whistle, it is currently in two parts until I find an alternative mouthpiece for the Troll Pipe - i.e. one from an old Camac wide-bore whistle which I know to be still lying around somewhere...

For general playing on the pipe & tabor I always use my Overton G, still going strong after nearly thirty years. You can here me playing it in the recording of Alison Gross that features HERE along with one of those inexpensive (and versatile) Darbuka's mentioned above. This was recorded last year in one of our wee sets at The Fylde, more of which this year I would imagine...

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 07:42 PM

Edain - Are you planning on going the whole hog and taking up Pipe AND Tabor?
If so, I would advise getting used to the idea of tapping a stick along with the pipe earlier rather than later in the process. It's a bit like patting your head and rubbing your tummy, but easier to learn as a complete set rather than trying to put two things together later.
Are we likely to see you at Warwick FF? If you are going to be there, I might bring my whittle and dub and have a session with you.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Claymore
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 01:56 AM

Jack Campins comment about the string drum, the tambourin de Béarn is correct, as it is the other instrument played with the Tabor pipes by the same musician.

The drum is actually a box with strings strung down the face and tuned to the 1, 4, 5 and 7 of the key of the tabor pipe. The stings are hit with a stick while the "Drum" hangs down the front of the player and his other hand is playing the tabor pipe. The effect is not unlike a drone while the tabor plays the treble portion of the French street music.

My neighbor, Nick Blanton, who builds Hammered Dulcimers, built one which can be seen on the Home page of http://smad.us/ or google "Shepherdstown Music and Dance". You'll note the two horns at the top which serve no purpose except to protect the friction tuning pegs.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Edain
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 03:26 AM

Geoff - don't know yet, the basic idea is for something simple to play round a campfire when LARPing and others are playing/singing. The ability to atleast kep time with the other hand is probably a useful skill to aquire though.

I should be at Warwick yes. Although I'm not yet certain how many days I can get off work for it so I don't know when I'll be arriving etc.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Tradsinger
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 03:34 AM

Don't forget the Pipe and Tabor festival at Lichfield on 10-12 July. Lots of brains to pick there.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 04:47 AM

as it is the other instrument played with the Tabor pipes by the same musician.

Many hurdy-gurdy players might whip out a three-hole pipe, and idiophones are also common. Traditionally we find all manner of bells and triangles, and latterly singing bowls, gongs, Burmese kyeezee; I once saw one chap playing accompanying his galoubet playing on his Hang - or was he accompanying his Hang with his Galoubet? Indeed, the mother of a friend of mine was particularly adept at accompanying her 3-hole piping with right-handed chord vamps and counterpoints at the piano, keeping us all enthralled with her rollicking renditions of Glorishears and Lads a Bunchum.

Here's something I feel any three-hole pipe will find pretty special anyway, Benjamin Melia - Galoubet & Tambourin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOE3a7b_E1g

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 04:56 AM

Here's Benjamin Melia playing the galoubet with the Tambourin à cordes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ__0ZKqadg

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 06:17 AM

Don't forget the Pipe and Tabor festival at Lichfield on 10-12 July. Lots of brains to pick there.


Thats Durham Big Meeting Weekend alas

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 08:04 AM

Here's something I feel any three-hole pipe will find pretty special anyway

That should, of course, be piper.

Meanwhile, just been tootling on my old Generation whittle and it's not too bad at all actually.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 06:59 PM

In the early seventies I bought a stell loe G pipe, with a loop for the little finger, ( I think made by Jim Jones) and a Bill Warder Tabor, both from C. Sharp house. Lost the Pipe in Sweden, drum, actually ownned by Blackhearh Morris, on whose behalf O aquired it, apparently enede up on the drum Kit used by the North Circular Accidental band ( probably by foul means)Both totally irreplacable.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: GUEST,scubadancer
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 01:57 AM

I just bought one from Steve Rowley at www.artension.com
email: [e-mail]

Made by Generation in D
£7.95 includes postage and a printed fingering guide.
A very knowledgeable and freindly guy.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:34 AM

I see Susato also do affordable Txistu-style 3-hole pipes. Must check these out.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:56 AM

The mention of Jim Jones taborer's pipes reminded me of two tragic losses. My first JJ pipe, which had been a birthday present, was stolen while I was at Letterkenny FF in 1977.

I danced with Southport Swords for a time. My second JJ pipe was stolen whilst I was at a Day of Dance in Liverpool.

To all taborers - look after your pipe(s) as if you have eyes in your arse.

I wouldn't mind, but Jim had suggested that I make a little case for the pipe, and hang it round my neck when not playing, and to make a "wrist-loop" for the tabor.

Nah, I thought - no folkie would rip another folkie off.

jesus bless my innocence.

Still, I'm content with my Generation, shrill tho it might be, and the Susato is damn good value for money.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: GUEST,Edain (sans cookie)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:15 AM

[i]a printed fingering guide.[/i]

Hmmm, one of those might have been useful. The pipe arrived in the post yesterday but as I'm in the process of moving I haven't had much change to have a blow yet.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Tradsinger
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:46 AM

There's fingering chart here.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: GUEST,Steve Rowley
Date: 13 Apr 17 - 05:30 AM

Fingering charts for D pipe are here...
http://www.pipeandtabor.org/the-pipe-and-tabor/how-to-play-the-pipe-and-tabor/

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Apr 17 - 08:08 AM

Silly me!
In the past when I've heard the expression "pipe & tabor" I've imagined 'fife & drum' as in the classic American image Here So a minimum of two persons.
Rather than "pipe & tabor" Here

Oh well, live and learn.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Apr 17 - 10:05 AM

Since my last post in this thread I have acquired two more instruments in this family and both of them are rather a pig to play.

The txistu (a real, full-sized Basque one) is a sensible size and pitch, but it has a very strange metal mouthpiece which takes extreme care if you are not to knock your front teeth out with it. Some of the chromatic fingerings involve half-covering the end of the instrument with your little finger, which I find nearly impossible.

The Catalan flabiol is quite flexible and ergonomically sensible in its fingering, except for the weird feature that you have one hole to cover on the bottom of the instrument using the top of your little finger, but it's so shatteringly loud and high pitched that I can't practice it at all without wearing earplugs.

I've made a one-handed washboard to play along with these.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: GUEST,Mark Lammas
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 05:06 PM

After a seemingly fruitless, long search for one of these, I have finally managed to get hold of a genuine Basque txistu. I already had the largest plastic txistu poxpolin which is sold by Susato in the USA, so I can already play the txistu, but I must admit that the real thing is somewhat easier to play, being heavier and less inclined to move in my fingers. I had already attached a txistu ring to my poxpolin, to enable bell-stopping. It's now a matter of lots of practice to improve expertise. Lovely sound. Mine's in F#, though. The seller didn't know, or didn't think to mention the key.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 08:39 PM

There is a pipe and tabor FB group. Haven't seen any txistu or flabiol players on it yet.

Interestingly mediaeval English pictures depict something much like a flabiol fairly often and something like the morris pipe not at all. The present day folkie's 3-hole seems to be a relatively recent invention or import. Maybe based on the galoubet?

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:14 AM

The latest edition of the Folk Music Journal has an excellent paper by Richard Shaw Sermon 'Joan Sharp and the revival of the English Pipe and Tabor'.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 04:59 PM

More memories, this must be the year for them?
Pipe and Tabour at Broadstairs 1976? And latter years of St.Chartier remember played down a side street about 3 in the morning. Woman looks out of upper window, 'why it's the festival' (in French or course)Intonation suggesting No Problem.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 05:01 PM

In 1979 I was in Mexico City for the Indian 'Day of the Dead.' In the grounds of the Basilica there were thousands of spectators. And hundreds of costumed dancing groups. One of these was about 8 males in two facing files of 4, they were dressed in US Native American style with tasselled waistcoats decorated with beads, light brown leather 'trousers,' and with feather head-dresses, shells on their ankles, and wearing sandals with metal pates attached to the soles (to jingle). They seemed to be a Native American 'morris' team. They were accompanied by a wonderful 'character' of a prancing jaguar 'animal.' But what interested me was that the sole musician was playing 3-holed pipe and tabor.

====

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 04:36 AM

Steve Gardham - do agree, Richard Sermon's paper is excellent - well researched, detailed, scholarly - best item in FMJ!

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 04:50 AM

There was an article on Native American morris dancing in the Folk Music Journal a few years ago. It described several events in New Mexico with column dances, pipe and tabor and hobby horses. It was supposed that it came from the Spanish.

Subject: RE: Three Hole Pipes
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 08:07 AM

Makes perfect sense, Mah.