Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?

Subject: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

Just curious to know others opinions on this.

Being English with Irish parentage I have some interest in learning a few songs that relate to my the experiences of my Irish ancestry. Both learning about the history surrounding them, and simply for singing the songs in themselves. I am told that certain figures in my families ancestry were involved in the Fenian movement for example - something I need to learn more about. And later members emigrated to England to escape the privations caused by the civil war in the North - resulting naturally enough in my being born here in England :-)

I'm also interested in the songs as representing something of a historical and social document so to speak.

Yet, there does appear to be some (perhaps understandable or perhaps not?) political sensitivity in the UK about such songs, so I realise I may have to be careful about where I might sing certain songs. And yet what intrigues me, is how staunchly the folk community appear to value 'historical accuracy' over 'PC' revisions where sensitive material contained in songs is concerned.

I feel I am treading on possibly 'taboo' ground by learning some of these songs, yet have come to the conclusion that they represent a perfectly valid body of material for me to draw upon. Both due to the personal family associations, and due to their impersonal and objective value as a form of social document.

Curious to know how others feel about the singing of such songs? Either by Irish people, by people of Irish descent, or indeed people with no Irish ancestry at all?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:41 AM

There is a very good book about this - Georges Denis Zimmermann, "Songs of Irish Rebellion: Irish Political Street Ballads and Rebel Songs, 1780-1900", 342pp, Four Courts Press, 1966, reprinted 2002 (ISBN 1-85182-629-7).

Maybe somebody can suggest something to complement that for the 20th century?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM

Interesting,

Are you referring to the Irish civil war which was fought in the republic between supporters of De Valera and supporters of Collins?

If so then I would also be interested in knowing if there are songs that deal with this subject, which otherwise seems to get swept under the carpet a bit.

A link to a relevant thread would be greatly appreciated if one already exists.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:44 AM

Thanks for that Jack - I'll certainly look that one up!

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:49 AM

GUESTlox

There are a number of songs relating to the period of the Civil War in Ireland (1922/3) and its aftermath - though I don't offhand know of any published collection. Some more recent songs associated with the Northern "troubles" would reference the period and participants, also.

Regards

p.s. I'm sure we've looked at some of the songs concerned here over the years - I'll add links as I find them.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

Please see my post of this AM in the "Colored Aristocracy" thread. If you find it relevant, go ahead and paste it here.

~S~

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM

I wouldn't offend by singing "Broad Black Brimmer" or "My Little Armalite" in the UK. But then, there are also songs like "Boyne Water" and "No Surrender" I wouldn't sing in Ireland. Heck, there are places in the US where I wouldn't sing any of these.

But...

They are all good songs. Every song will offend someone -- from "Kick the Pope" to "Tantum Ergo" to "Jump Jim Crow" to "We Shall Overcome."

I'd suggest that you know your audience.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:00 PM

Lox, that's my dumb error - don't know why I put that down. Rightly I should have said "Troubles", which only ever verged on civil war. Though I do need to ask further about family history for that period too.

Possibly I should have a look at a family tree alongside the history associated with the songs. Minstrelry of some kind, is also supposed to be a part of my Irish families history, another rather tangiental reason for an interest in the subject.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: maire-aine
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

Being in the US, not the UK, I haven't got quite the same problem. But there are certain audiences that are very anti-political no matter what their stripe. By all means, learn the songs and their historical background, for your own satisfaction. You will find occasions to sing them. A lot of the songs I sing are US political, labor & social justice themes, so I try to seek out audiences that will appreciate them.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM

I am English with no Irish ancestry. There are some excellent Irish rebel songs and I have some of them on vinyl. I have not heard any that would offend me.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM

Crow Sister

Which "few songs" did you have in mind to learn?

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:49 PM

I will do appropriate reading around the history behind them, before deciding that. I'm not about to dive in, without gaining some understanding of context.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:54 PM

Tricky one Crow Sister

There are still people with many real memories of the Birmingham pub bombings in 1974 which were the most injurious terrorist attacks in England until the July 2005 London bombings; 21 people were killed (ten at the Mulberry Bush and eleven at the Tavern in the Town) and 182 people were injured.

Just after this I was in the Lake District and felt obliged to point out to a couple of German tourists that loudly singing songs advocating 'rising up' against British rule in a local pub was probably badly timed

"What rebel songs do not have to be, is anthems dedicated to perpetuating hatred. Perhaps it's a mark of my often buried idealism, but I believe that it's possible to honor the heroes and remember the dead, without advocating or glorifying further killing. In fact, understanding the sacrifices of those whom have gone before us can, and should, motivate us to do everything in our power to avoid future violence, and to appreciate what peace and freedoms we have."

A quote from an insightful web page The Art of Defiance - Rebel songs

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:58 PM

Good idea, crow sister! As you get a sense of Irish history - from all sides - you'll find lots of songs that can provide an insight into different periods and the characters that lived then. They don't all HAVE to be "rebel songs", of course.


Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM

But let's look then at ALL rebel songs -- not just those of Ireland. "Yankee Doodle"? "Flight of Doodles"? "The Triumph of General Ludd"? "The World Turned Upside Down"? "La Makhnovtchina"? "Die Moorsoldaten"?

Where does "Le deserteur" differ from "Neck Deep In the Big Muddy" in spirit? Where does "Waltzing Wharfie" differ from "I Dreamed I Saw Joe Hill Last Night"?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 01:29 PM

I am a firm believer in singing what you like and apologizing for any offense..unless it is really really bad, in which case I would do folk surgery on it or not sing it. I also now try to take out specific anti-British words, like "if the color we must wear is England's cruel red" and making a substitution, which I don't like doing, because I do not like altering songs, but nevertheless...Just a disclaimer that you do not support violence in any form or whatever your beliefs are. I got scolded for singing some rebel song once for fear of inciting a riot or whatever and really had not connected them to incitefullness, at least in Seattle. But I absolutely positively do not believe you need a DNA connection or cultural connection to sing any song. You might lose 92% of the meaning, but maybe whoever you sing it to will get something else out of it. I also tend to be one who doesn't really listen to words too much of a song and others differ...mg

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 01:50 PM

Because you can't understand the lyrics:

Не слышны в саду даже шорохи
Все здесь замерло до утра
Если б знали вы, как мне дороги
Подмосковные вечера.

Речка движется и не движетс
Вся из лунного серебра
Песня слышится и не слышится
В эти тихие вечера.

А рассвет уже все заметне
Так, пожалуйста, будь добра
Не забудь и ты эти летние
Подмосковные вечера.

Не слышны в саду даже шорох
Все здесь замерло до утра
Если б знали вы, как мне дороги
Подмосковные вечера.

in no way makes "Moscow Nights" a song to anger people. And yet it has, back in the '60s, simply because it was Russian.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 02:32 PM

It's been my experience that people who claim to object to political songs really mean that they object to songs that run counter to 'their' politics.
The British and Irish repertoires are full of political songs - as somebody said, 'you'll always find somebody who will take offence', and if you pander to that attitude you'll end up with a very anodyne repertoire.
Irish history is fully recorded in its songs; some of the most fascinating have been those made locally which, for one reason or another, haven't caught the attention of the general population - there are numerous ones in this area dating back to the Black and Tan atrocities.
"There are still people with many real memories of the Birmingham pub bombings in 1974"
There are indeed - just as there are those who remember the fact that innocent people were fitted up for the crime, and others, and served 17 years because of it - so where do you go from there?
I would strongly second the suggestion of getting hold of Zimmermann's book; it was re-issued in paperback not so long ago - try 'The Book Depository' website. usually very reasonable and postage free.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 03:35 PM

Jim

It's been my experience that people who claim to object to political songs really mean that they object to songs that run counter to 'their' politics

Bit like the objections to the idea that BNP supporters might actually have voices!

More seriously, of course, the converse of your argument is very often true: people who claim they sing songs because of the history - implying some quasi-objective status - are doing so in support of a specific political outlook and aim. Nothing wrong with that, really - apart from the illusion of truth. Me? I'd settle for balance - which has to be worked at.

Regards

p.s. See you soon!

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 04:50 PM

Interesting thread! As I said to someone recently: "Folk songs are powerful songs." As a performer I feel it's important to understand that power ... to understand where the power came from and where the power can go. Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Marje
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 04:57 PM

Crow Sister, I think the fact that you're aware that you might offend sensiblities is pretty good guarantee that you won't. The most offence is caused when people carelessly sing songs about events that are much closer to the experience of the listeners than they realise, and casually use words that are terms of abuse in some communities. If you're taking the trouble to think about the songs you sing, and finding out a bit about how they fit into Irish history, you'll probably present them in a thoughtful and appropriate way. You can always show by the way you introduce a song that you're aware of where it comes from and how it came to be written or sung, without suggesting that you endorse the all sentiments it expresses or believe they're appropriate today.

I don't think being of "Irish descent" is of any particular significance. Irish history belongs not just to the Irish, but to the Scots, Welsh and English too - we and our forebears were all a part of it to some degree. It's more important that you have some awareness of the issues and events that the songs refer to, and it sounds to me as if you're already taking the trouble to prepare the ground. You'll be fine - the worst thing would be to ignore the songs and let them die out.

Marje

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 06:09 PM

Every nation has done things in the past of which is isn't proud. Slavery in the US, the Holocaust in Germany, the Japanese sex slaves, Cromwell's excesses in Ireland, the Albigensian Crusade in France, and many many others. History is full of these.

We should remember them and learn from them so that we don't do them again. However, this is an imperfect world and we are imperfect people (even I once had an very slight imperfection). Certain sights, smells, sounds can trigger bad old memories, memories of people and events long gone by but still alive inside our heads.

Know your audience and don't do anything to deliberately offend. "Broad Black Brimmer" and "A Nation Once Again" are wonderful songs that can get the audience "going" -- unless the audience has memories of the IRA and the Troubles recently ended (and not necessarily all of the audience).

I'd try not to cause unnecessary and deliberate pain, but the songs should still be sung. And I include the songs of ALL sides.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 08:41 PM

I got involved in 'Folk' song in the mid sixties (In UK) and thoroughly enjoyed singing songs like 'Dublin in the Green' and other
similar Irish Rebel songs , as did all my Folkie mates . They were GOOD choruses and were sung in Drunken nights in The NAAFI on a lot of Military bases .
That all changed when the Civil Rights Movement in Northern Ireland was Hijacked by the I R A in 1969 . Who wanted to sing about 'The Glorious Struggle' when a good percentage of your audience could well have loved ones serving in Belfast , and being shot and bombed by 'The Boyos' !
Now that there is a sort of peace in Ireland , it is not so bad to sing some of the songs , but as has been pointed out , there are too many memories of stupid things done by ALL participants in 'The Troubles' , so a degree of circumspection wold seem to be called for .
A Bloody Shame in MY opinion , as they are STILL Good Chorus songs !

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 04:46 AM

The value of a song as a social document must be considered with reference to when it was written.
There are many songs now about WW1 that aspire to speak for the soldiers of the day, but are modern songs that reflect modern values and mores and not the ethos of the time.

Many Irish rebel songs were written long after the events they portray, and are imbued with ideas that may not have been as prevalent as the revisionist authors would like to believe they were.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 04:49 AM

Keith

Fair, calm comment.

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 11:38 AM

I really appreciate the considered responses to this thread. I wondered if I might be opening another Pandoras Box on Mudcat.

Martin - with respect to your comments yes indeed. Precisely so. My feeling is I wish to find a vivid and active inroad into some of my Irish heritage through song. But to clarify, 'Rebel Songs' are not the *only* area of interest, I simply felt that they in particular may perhaps be somewhat 'taboo' for me to engage with - being English (albeit Anglo-Irish) rather than Irish - hence my interest in others opinion on the matter.

It has been a very useful thread, and great to see such temperate and well-informed views expressed on such a potentially contentious issue.

I'd be happy to garner anecdotes about their own singing of 'Rebel Songs' too, if anyone wanted to share them?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Fiolar
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 08:44 AM

Crow Sister. Just to mention that there were some beautiful songs written years and years before the 20th century which dealt with various aspects of Irish history and the various rebellions. For example, just to mention a few:
"The Wind that Shakes the Barley" (1798 rebellion); "The Bold Fenian Men" (the 1860s); "The Blacksmith of Limerick" (1690); "Skibereen" (possibly the 1840s)

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 11:20 AM

Fiolar

Mind you, all of those were written well after the events they describe - which limits their impact as social documents.

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:57 PM

Indeed, Skibbereen and Bold Fenian Men (Down By The Glenside) are both 20th century.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 02:43 PM

Keith

While I've always believed that Skibbereen is probably late 19C. or early 20 - it's a hard one to date or find an author for. What you know, please?

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:29 PM

As someone whose great grandmother was exiled because of her love for an English soldier there is a part of me that feels an association with catholic Ireland, and a bit of pride in this link. I've sung and played many tunes that come from Ireland over the years. It's never bothered me and I sung many of the songs around clubs in London in the late sixties. A group of us were playing tunes on the P&O ferry from Rotterdam to Hull one night after the 1st eurogathering. Late at night after a good session where we gathered quite a good audiencea drunken angry Irishman accused us of playing rebel songs (actually tunes) and tried to berate us. His embaressed wife pulled him away and we told him that the words hadn't been added to the tunes until long after they were written. He eventually left amid comments from people who were just enjoying the music and didn't seem to care at all.

I suppose many people don't know or don't care where the songs or tunes have come from.

Marje, above adds, "I don't think being of "Irish descent" is of any particular significance. Irish history belongs not just to the Irish, but to the Scots, Welsh and English too - we and our forebears were all a part of it to some degree." Which I think is true for many of us (It's up to you to chose whether to take a side or not or whether to just view the tunes with history).

And Terry (Leadfingers) is right about the songs being sung with gusto in the sixties, ignoring the history behind them. The songs were sung in clubs all over the place and with often full audience participation.

Mike Ryan of CARA wrote a song; Exile's son. It sums up his and your right to sing.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:46 AM

The idea of songs composed retrospectively eulogising heros of the past is interesting as a form of 'folk propaganda' I think - especially as it's almost echoing the tradition of doing same with ancient heros of Irish mythology. So in as much as they might not represent a genuine take on events of the time, they can possibly be seen in light of how the past is intentionally drawn upon to inspire action in the present, and indeed in light of a long tradition of doing the same?

I learned 'Bold Fenian Men' (Down by the Glenside) yesterday, and I found that propagandist element very intriguing. Along with the notion that these men were somehow 'other', in as much as "*There* was a race of men that were so brave and beautiful that *we* could never possibly match their kind again, but nevertheless we might find their image one to inspire us to attempt to emulate them", so to speak.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:24 AM

It is not just eulogising heroes.
Songs (and movies) have created a false social history because the true history does not fit with the writers' political philosophy.
They require a history of a downtrodden Irish people united in hatred of the English oppressor.

Martin, all I know of Skibbereen is from reading the discussion and research on Mudcat to which you were a contributor.
I think that you found no reference before the second decade of 20thC.
Being such a good song (I sing it myself minus the last verse) I am sure it would have become known very quickly.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Fiolar
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 08:55 AM

"Skibbereen" is a traditional song. There is no known author but the events mentioned deal with the 1840s. One verse is as follows:
    "It's well I do remember the year of forty-eight,
      When we arose with Erin's boys to fight against our fate.
      I was hunted through the mountains as a traitor to the Queen,
      And that's another reason why I left old Skibbereen."
That verse is left out of some versions. "The Bold Fenian Men" was written by Peadar Kearney (1883 - 1942) who was involved in the Easter Rising of 1916.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 09:17 AM

The author of Skibbereen is not known.
Obviously it was inspired by the famine.
Lack of early references does not prove it a later song, but that is the most likely explanation.
The other two songs you mention were both written by the same person in the second half of 19thCentury. He was an an emigrant in USA known for his writing of emotive patriotic songs for the Irish community there.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM

As Kearney's songs were written in 20thC after the rising, it would be very misguided to see them as a social history of earlier centuries.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM

I also tend to be one who doesn't really listen to words too much...

I'm with Phil Ochs on this one:

Why sing the songs and forget about the aim?
He wrote them for a reason. Why not sing them for the same?

If you just want background noise, there's MuZak.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 11:08 AM

quote:
"Yet, there does appear to be some (perhaps understandable or perhaps not?) political sensitivity in the UK about such songs,"

That applies to Ireland as well, Crow Sister. Rebel songs went out of favour during the events in the North from 69 onwards. There appears to have been a bit of a revival since the peace process mostly amoung a younger age group who weren't about when the Provos were engaged in what they and their supporters euphemistically refer to as the "armed struggle".

A few rebel songs are often included in the repertoire of the one man ballad bands who put on entertainment for the tourists and visitors are thereby often misled as to the popularity of the particular genre of Irish songs.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 01:54 PM

I remember in the 60's Hallmark (sold in Woolworths) had an albulm called "Songs of the Irish rebellion". It sold quite well I believe and I still have my copy. It had the Tricolour on the front. This was before the mainland bombings etc. Nobody seemed to mind the songs being sung then.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 03:39 PM

I have a Dubliners LP of that time with My Ould Alarm Clock, about planting bombs in London.
It was just an amusing song then.
No sinister overtones.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 03:45 PM

I remember them singing it at the Royal Albert Hall in about 1968/69?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:38 PM

When very much younger, I sang the Men from South Armagh, a 1970s song, in a bar on Cape Clear. A bloke from Dublin was very upset; some local youths highly impressed to hear an Englishman singing a rebel song. Cape is a hell of a long way from Warrenpoint. I certainly wouldn't do it now.

But if that song is to be deprecated, why is the Battle of New Orleans acceptable?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 05:12 PM

Keith A: "I have a Dubliners LP of that time with My Ould Alarm Clock, about planting bombs in London."

Interesting.
I have vague recollections of a song about 'the clockmaker', though I'm guessing the associations were the same?
Fully naive at the time, of the possible implications of course. Wish I could remember more.

Any more songs of that ilk?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 05:18 PM

You may be thinking of "clockwinder" - different associations!

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 06:19 PM

1998 thread about Ould Alarm Clock.
Early contributor, MartinRyan.
thread.cfm?threadid=6774&messages=9

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 06:47 PM

Keith

No argument about the alarm clock, of course! It's just that "clockmaker" seems closer to "clockwinder " than anything else. Localised Dublin versions of THIS ONE were very popular at one stage. I wondered if that's what Crow Sister had in mind.

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Marje
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:24 AM

The difference between a song about the Battle of New Orleans and a 1970s Irish song is about 150 years - in other words, the difference between something that's now history, and something that's in living memory. When there are people alive who have suffered personally, or lost friends or family in the 20th-century Irish troubles, it's wise to be sensitive to this when choosing your song.

And yes, there was a time when you could sing rebel Irish songs even in very Protestant parts of the North of Ireland. I'm thinking of the early 1960s (I know because I lived there then), in the lull between the IRA action of the 1950s and the violence that marked the start of the more recent "Troubles". It was quite cool then to support the Republican cause and the civil rights marchers. But once the violence began in the late 60s, you had to be more careful what you sang and where. And (as implied above) it may be OK for an Irishman to sing a certain song but less so for an Englishman to do so - it's a bit like telling a joke against your own nation, I suppose, in that it's less acceptable coming from a (relative) outsider.

Marje

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

The advice about knowing your audience is sound .The thing is about these songs is that ,if they are good ,and if you sing them well , your audience will forgive you if they are music lovers and not attending a performance solely for political reasons.
There is often a lot of demagoguery mixed up with the singing of rebel songs - especially when drink is involved . I'm sure that would be the same in Orange circles. Performers have to learn to distinguish between whether audiences are appreciating songs for their political content or for their artistic merits . It can be both .
You should feel free to leave out offensive verses. I recall reading with horror the unexpugated words of the Irish(?)American song ,The Days of 49 , with all its racist verses . The song without those verses had always been one of my favourites. It's not so good nowadays as a social record of the prevailing racist attitudes in 19th century America because it's always sung with those verses ommitted , but it is better as a song .

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 03:51 AM

After some thought, I wish to change my position on Skibbereen.
It is the song of a man who was too young when he left to have any memory of Ireland.
A man who grew up in USA with only the possibly romanticised reminiscences of older family members, and steeped and imbued with the emotive and romantic, but false history promulgated by songs and verses churned out by professional writers like Robert Dwyer Joyce.
As a social history it does offer an insight, but an insight into the history of second and third generation immigrants in USA.
Its dangerous message is that it would be a good thing to go and do some killing of new generations as a response to the plight of previous generations.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 04:07 AM

When I posted about falsely historical rebel songs, their pernicious influence was immediately demonstrated by Fiolar.
He offered 4 examples of songs not in that category, and every one was.
The songs he has always known and loved were not what he thought them to be.
He said he had many more examples, but none offered yet.

For me the enjoyment of these songs is tainted by the knowledge that they bear a responsibity for the human and economic catastrophe of the last 40 years.