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It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?

PoppaGator 24 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM
frogprince 24 Jun 09 - 01:32 PM
Ernest 24 Jun 09 - 01:37 PM
fat B****rd 24 Jun 09 - 03:15 PM
Will Fly 24 Jun 09 - 03:26 PM
PoppaGator 24 Jun 09 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,lox 24 Jun 09 - 05:18 PM
GUEST,lox 24 Jun 09 - 05:21 PM
gnu 24 Jun 09 - 05:34 PM
Lox 24 Jun 09 - 05:36 PM
Joe_F 24 Jun 09 - 06:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 24 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,lox 24 Jun 09 - 07:57 PM
PoppaGator 25 Jun 09 - 01:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Jun 09 - 03:08 PM
breezy 25 Jun 09 - 03:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 25 Jun 09 - 05:52 PM
Stringsinger 25 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM
PoppaGator 26 Jun 09 - 05:18 PM
Stringsinger 27 Jun 09 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,lox 27 Jun 09 - 05:33 PM
Stringsinger 27 Jun 09 - 06:21 PM
PoppaGator 28 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jun 09 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,lox 28 Jun 09 - 07:13 PM
Stringsinger 29 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,lox 29 Jun 09 - 07:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jun 09 - 07:53 PM
Stringsinger 29 Jun 09 - 09:27 PM
PoppaGator 30 Jun 09 - 11:28 AM
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Subject: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM

Here's a great example of the music I truly love, which is unfortunately way beyond the realm of music that I'm able to play on acoustic guitar:

Do Whatcha Wanna

We occasionally have long and heated discussions about jazz, like the recent one about Paul Whiteman, the white-man so-called King of Jazz.

My perception of the music that first developed and came to be called "jazz" is that it was distinguished by two important characteristics: group improvisation; and a deep, infectious, can't-not-dance rhythmic groove. The latter-day genre we recognize as today's jazz is wonderful music ~ don't get me wrong ~ but it lacks both those original features: improvisation occurs only in solo form, and the "beat," such as it is, is pretty laid back.

Around the same time that jazz was becoming cool, funky African-American dance music continued to grow and develop under new names: jump blues, rhythm and blues, rock 'n' roll (most notably the truly classic R&B/R&R recorded in New Orleans by Cosimo Matassa). My feeling is that these other forms can also claim direct descent from the founding fathers of jazz.

And then, there's the new contemporary street-beat second-line brass band music ~ like this, which is why I love New Orleans.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 01:32 PM

Looks to me like it's got plenty of that "can't-not-dance" factor; set a toddler down while he listens to that, and he would find a way to dance to it for sure. And I sorta doubt if these guys practiced every lick to a written score. Lottsa fun, thanks, PoppaGator.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: Ernest
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 01:37 PM

I agree - sounds like Jazz to me too.

All these labels - be they "Jazz", "Rock" and even - no especially - our favourite "F"-word here have spawned so many sub-genres that they lost quite a bit of their orginal meaning by now.

Definitely a good reason to love New Orleans!

Hope all is well there with you and your family
Best wishes
Ernest


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 03:15 PM

PoppaGator, thank you so much for that. It looks like the best of good times. Labels schmabels!!
I hope you're well ATB from Charlie


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 03:26 PM

I just love the sounds of New Orleans - from early jazz to The Meters - James Booker and Snooks Eaglin. Great video - thanks for posting.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 04:15 PM

It's pretty rare to find such a COMPLETE video of a second-line street-parade on You Tube ~ long enough to hear an entire song, and also "complete" in the sense of showing the band, the costumed social-and-pleasure-club secondliners, AND the random spontaneous participants drawn in from the general public as well.

The sound quality is OK too. The only improvement I would wish for is that they should have sung a chorus or two of the lyrics, which DOES happen. Most of the popular selections for these events are written to include some sort of repetitive call-and-response chant in which the crowd can participate (e.g., in this case, "Do Whatcha Wanna").

As vibrant as this scene is, it's still documentation of a "staged" event (marking the opening of Jazzfest) in semi-artificial surroundings (the French Quarter). To experience the really real thing, you need to find one of the annual Sunday-afternoon celebrations of a Social and Pleasure Club's "anniversary," where they parade through their own neighborhoods. All through the spring, summer, and fall, there's one or two of these parades almost every Sunday, not widely publicized. Or, better yet, you might stumble across a truly incredible spectacle at the right person's funeral.

At a "real" second-line event out in the neighborhoods, in addition to the music, the bands, the highly skilled and enthusiastic dancers, etc., you'll see folks following along pulling little kids' wagons from which they'll sell you cold beer (or soft drinks or water), homemade fried chicken, BBQ ribs., yet-ca-mein, etc. On a few rare occasions, I've been able to share such an experience with out-of-town friends, and everyone has always found it absolutely unforgettable.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 05:18 PM

"improvisation occurs only in solo form"

Not true - Jazz comping continues to be improvised and Jazz bands continue to communicate and respond amonsgt each other to changes of dynamic intensity, time and pitch etc

Just check out the way that Chick Corea accompanies ... anyone ... chick is obviously a greeat composer and soloist, but in my opiniion his great strength is his utterly unselfish ability to comp in unceasingly interesting and inspiring ways, feeding his the soloist and respondiing to him simultaneously.

Also check out the way Jazz bass players move smooothly through the chords like Oscar Wilde walking through a crowd.

"a deep, infectious, can't-not-dance rhythmic groove"

This was the case yes, but there were also slower numbers.

"jump blues, rhythm and blues, rock 'n' roll (most notably the truly classic R&B/R&R recorded in New Orleans by Cosimo Matassa). My feeling is that these other forms can also claim direct descent from the founding fathers of jazz."

To some extent yes, but only insofar as they are based on the european construct of I7-IV7-V7 as organized by the classic 12 bar system that blues has come to be known by.

Raw blues had no bars and where there are recordings and we divide up with hindsight, we find 13 bar blues, 16 bar blues, 10 barblues etc.

So the idea of 12 bar blues makes it nearly blues ... add a pinch of european chord theory and the I7 - IV7 - V7 chord foundation makes it less bluesy and veers it in the direction of Jazz.

The more complex the chords, the more Jazzy it becomes, until you reach the point where you are forced to acknowledge multiple key centres, which is where it deviates from blues and becomes something else.

That point is where blues ends and Jazz begins.

Why? what's the difference? where's the dividing line?

It is possible to play Jazz over the I7-IV7-V7 foundation, as there are technically 3 different key centres suggested by 3 dominant chords, but generally in blues the soloist draws from one or maybe two or three scalar resources, all with a root in the same key centre but which still sound good over all three chords - the ambiguous 3rd makes this all the more possible - so while other key centres are suggested by the chords, the improvisation is in just one key so it ain't quite Jazz.

Jazz blues is where the scales used reflect alternative possible key centres and subsequently where the chords are made more complex to the extent that scales used in traditional blues cease to sound right.

The area of overlap is in the classic I7 - IV7 - V7 construct, where you can either improvise using a fixed resource or you can use numerous resources suggesting alternative keys.

But lets say you add a IV7 chord in bar 8 of a twelve bar sequence ... if you continue to draw from a fixed resource with its root in the tonic key centre, you will find that they it doesn't work any more - it isn't enough.

At this point the music can be said to have crossed over into the realm of jazz.

The use of ii m7 chords before each dominant chord, and of diminished sevenths as dominant substitutes further complicates matters as they compel the soloist to alter his key centre for each dominant chord in the sequence.

Funk is more heavily influenced by Jazz than Rhythm and Blues was as while bass lines often suggest a consistent key centre, the chords used in fact define the tonality as being quite complex, in turn requiring the soloist to draw from resources from numerous key centres.

I'm guessing you don't mean R+B as kids know it today, which sounds a million miles from the R+B of the 50's

I haven't knowingly listened to Jump blues so i can't really comment on that.

As for your clip, I hear numerous instruments working in free counterpoint with each other to accompany a loose melody, which suggests that it is Jazz, however, the chord structure seems to be simply either I7-IV7-I7-IV7 continuously, a sustained I7 chord or V7-IV7-I7 and the soloist seems to be drawing from a fixed resource without ever sounding wrong so it is arguably closer to blues.

In fact, I think what we have here is an example of what early jazz sounded like as it first began to seperate from blues to become an artform in its own right.

I hope that that has been helpful and does not appear heated despite the passion and love of the subject with which I wrote it :-)


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 05:21 PM

"But lets say you add a IV7 chord in bar 8 of a twelve bar sequence"

Sorry, I meant a VI7 chord not a IV7 chord


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 05:34 PM

Ah... I don't care... I LIKE IT!


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 05:36 PM

Me too :-)


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 06:02 PM

"Staged" it may be, but at least they *sound* as if they were having fun.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM

I only really like Jazz when it's folk music, which is where it started.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM

I'm going with friends to see the Preservation Hall Jazz Band here in July at a new venue called "Anthology." I haven't been in New Orleans in years, but did have a conversation a couple of years back with Jim Cullum, who has a "hot jazz" combo at his nightclub in San Antonio on the Riverwalk. He was lamenting the state of music in New Orleans at the time. A lot of the old-timers were gone and he wasn't seeing the same passion for the old music there. Maybe that's outdated news since the hurricane and recovery efforts. I hope so.

Cullum does have a great band which has long been featured on public radio as "Live, From the Landing" or "Riverwalk Jazz." The great thing about the program is that you get the history along with the music and a lot of old-time performers to give some flavor of what it must have been like in the heyday of traditional jazz.

If you like performers such as Jack Teagarden, Muggsy Spanier, Bix Beiderbecke or Kid Ory, et al, you'll like this.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 07:57 PM

"I only really like Jazz when it's folk music, which is where it started."

All types of music have their origins in folk and can be traced back to folk tunes and songs of some description.

By that token you could say "I only like classical when its folk - which is where it started" and not be incorrect.

yet by the very definitions used in both of the above sentences we see a distinction between two types of music, identified by the terms used to describe them.

In your sentence, the terms "jazz" and "folk", in my sentence the terms "jazz" and "folk".

So how do we decide which term to use?

we have to establish some kind of boundary or borderline between the two genres.

How do we do that?

By identifying what is unique about each.

Jazz is distinct from folk in its use of muliple key centres.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 01:54 PM

New Orleans music, even the old-style jazz heard at Preservation Hall and the Palm Court Cafe, is a tradition, but it's a living tradition.

You're not going to hear the exact same music from Dr Michael White, Evan Christopher, Tom Laughlin, Greg Stafford, Wendell Brunious, Bob French, George French, etc., that you might have heard 30-40 years ago from Billy and DeDe Pierce, the Humphrey brothers, Big Jim Robinson, and any number of others who have since passed on.

Today's serious traditional-jazz players have tremendous knowledge and respect for the music that came before (certainly deeper and more credible than that of some critics who decry their "inferiority" to their forebearers). Interestingly enough, many of them are members of musical families who have lived in the Treme (or elsewhere in the city) and carried on this tradition for generations.

Still in all, these are people living in the here-and-now 21st century, and as working musicians most of them are able to play, and have to play, more modern styles of jazz as well as various popular genres. It's impossible for this broad musical knowledge not to have some impact when a group of living breathing players provides a rendition of, say, St. James Infirmary, Bourbon Street Parade, or even When the Saints...

The brass-band phenomenon is a very interesting study in musical history. The late Danny Barker started a band of young teenagers back in, I think, the late 70s, and secured sponsorship from a local church. At the time, Danny was concerned that the old songs were being forgotten, and he taught these young kids all the correct numbers to play at funerals (before and after the body is "cut loose") and for other traditional functions and celebrations.

Danny was right. Back then, there was a very real danger of that tradition dying out. Fortunately, the kids learned to play and to love the old jazz standards, but of course they also loved, and could play, the contemporary music of their own generation.

I'm pretty sure that every member of the Fairview Baptist Church Marching Band went on to a muscial career; most if not all of them participated in the brass band revival that began with the emergence of the Dirty Dozen, and that has blossomed over the last several decades.

The above-linked video is just one example of this new/old musical genre. It's quite sobering to reflect that without the determination of one man, the great Danny Barker, the entire brass band revival might never have happened and we would not have real street-parade music at all any more. Without the music, the S&P clubs might have died out, too, leaving no one to sponsor those groups of second-line dancers.

And Danny wasn't even a brass-band player; he was a string player, banjo and guitar, who left New Orleans to play and tour with Louis Armstrong. When he moved back home after Satchmo's passing, he was able to get gigs for himself, but he also was able to observe the gigs and the musical opportunities that couldn't be found any longer, that were fading into non-existence. That's when he became so concerned about keeping his favorite traditions alive.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 03:08 PM

The Rebirth Brass Band some years ago played at a festival in Edmonton, Alberta. They are superb as promoters of New Orleans style band music.

A comprehensive history of band music in the U. S., I think, is yet to be written. Any place a few musicians got together seemed to breed a brass band. The mid to late 19th c. saw many types of bands, from those on the British style, to the German and central European type, to those of Spain and Mexico in the southwest, and the European-based but Hawaiian-influenced Royal Band in Honolulu.
Sunday band music in the square or plaza or park was a fixture in many places.

Brass band instruments themselves have evolved; several types used in the mid-19th c. are now no longer used; new types have evolved.

The brass band in Dodge City, Kansas, in the cattle drive days, was known over a wide area, playing as a marching band and at dances.
During the Civil War, many bands played marching, concert and dance music.

Many of these bands reflected the population from which they were drawn; the Moravians seemed to have a band in each of their communities. One of these, from Wachovia, North Carolina, enlisted with the Confederacy, played at the Battle of Gettysburg. Their music books, with much hand notation, have been preserved.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: breezy
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 03:10 PM

Padstow Merrymakers have nothing to fear


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

Traditional English groups like the Padstow Merrymakers are little known this side of the pond. Not what the books call "English band music."

Their influence in North America?


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 05:52 PM

PoppaGator, et al:

Thanks for that piece. I'm nearing 70 and I still remember the first time I heard an old Armstrong recording on my grandfather's hand-crank Victrola in his house in Beaumont, TX. It was probably around 1946. I also fell in love with the trombone when I heard Jack Teagarden for the first time. I've seen a lot of great jazz of the later period, from Oscar Peterson to Cannonball Adderley to Howard Rumsey's All Stars. I'm still partial to the old stuff. Nothing gets my feet moving quite like it.

I hope you all are recovering and that the music recovers with you, if it ever needed to.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM

Well, it has vestiges of the early trad jazz playing style, a shouting trombone, two trumpets not unlike the tone stylings of Louis and Oliver but the beat is restrictive in that it rests with R and B and doesn't allow the imagination of the earlier musicians to take place in their ensemble playing which sounds pretty much like warmed over R and B licks and riffs.

The interesting part is the style of playing which seems natural to New Orleans trad players.
Also, the lack of secondary dominant chords keep it in the three chord category.

The drumming is R and B and not the trad playing of the marching band press rolls. It would be interesting to hear the earlier tunes from the Hot Five and Seven or Bunk and George Lewis being done with the R and B quasi-Motown rhythms.

I think it's an interesting development though. The style of attack and shouts of the horns reflect earlier trad jazz styles. So far, no Louis Armstrong has emerged.

If you want to hear young people play trad jazz well, I would recommend that you check
YouTube for Bria Skonberg, a pretty and young trumpet player and great singer who has
absorbed the trad style. She has an impressive all-girl band called "Mighty Aphrodite"
and they get the toe tapping. She's from B.C. Canada I think.

I think that this revival in New Orleans is healthy and a great expression for young black musicians. I hope it continues.

Frank


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:18 PM

" So far, no Louis Armstrong has emerged."

Of course, there'll never be another Louis, but we do have Kermit Ruffins, original lead trumpet of the Rebirth who left the band (amicably) years ago. Here he is doing a couple of Satchmo classics:

Black &Blue

St James Infirmary

Kermit compares to Pops (more or less) not only as a trumpet player and vocalist, but even moreso as a stage presence and entertainer. I tried to pick the YouTube videos that were the best available musically; some of the other available clips might be a little inferior in terms of audio-quality, but better examples of Kermit's terrific showmanship (e.g., the "Live at Vaughn's" sample).


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 11:39 AM

PoppaGator,

I really thought he was good and carrying on that great tradition. Check out
Bria Skonberg on YouTube as well.

I really love this old style jazz. I bang around with it on my 1922 B and D tenor.

I'm glad to see a revival. I thought it was an endangered species.

I think Kermit has a good future. Like to hear him on some Pop's classics such as
"Cornet Chop Suey", "Heebie Jeebies" etc.

Frank


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 05:33 PM

I do too,

i would like to dedicate some time to learning some of the tunes, techniques, licks etc so I can really get to the heart of it.

You've gotta get waht came before to get what came after.

Besides which, as has been pointed out frequently, it's energizing stuff


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:21 PM

It really is. And it's so interesting to get the notes down that they play and realize that
they played those notes differently, with a unique phrasing that standard music notation can't capture. When I hear Johnny Dodds play, I realize just how much more the tone quality varies from what you would hear if a classical musician or even a modern jazz musician would play. You can find the notes and even the ornaments and semi-tone slides and glisses but to try to capture the feeling in the interpretation, you have to have some kind of insight to the period of music. In this way, it is a folk music.

Frank


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM

"In this way, it is a folk music."

Amen. I've had that same opinion for at least 39 years, since I first came to New Orleans. There's a tradition that is passed down player-to-player over the generations, a common/shared repertoire, and a sort of essential feeling of empathy, even unity, with the "audience," or perhaps more basically, with fellow members of the community who may not play instruments but who dance, bang on improvised percussion, and generally participate rather than just sit back and absorb the music.

AND, it's been going on without interruption for well over a century at this point ~ not always in the public eye. Even during periods of neglect by the outside world, the community of local musicians has always carried on this living tradition.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 05:32 PM

By that token you could say "I only like classical when its folk - which is where it started"(lox)

I could indeed, and it wouldn't be that far from the truth, though it's an oversimplification (as was my comment about jazz), but what's really involved isn't actually "being folk".

As for "we have to establish some kind of boundary or borderline between the two genres" - I think we are using the word "folk" in a different sense. I don't see "folk music" as a single genre. There are a myriad different folk traditions, every culture throws up different ones, and "jazz" is one of these.   

What I really mean is that in any musical tradition, once it loses its contact with its roots in a folk tradition, it's in danger of losing its way. And that seems to have happened all too often, in jazz, classical and many other musical traditions.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:13 PM

I accept your point.

My concern is to do with the difficulty Jazz has had in establishing itself as a legitimate artform in the same way that Genres of music under the "classical" umbrella are recognized.

When Stravinsky developed the idea of bi-tonality, there were of course the usual public arguments about whether his music sounded good or if it was really music or just a cacophony etc

These arguments dealt with the aesthetic appreciation of his work and as such were open to the views of any listener as in this respect music is entirely democratic so everyones point of view was of equal value.

But from the perspective of somebody who is aware of the development of tonal systems in European music, his ideas on how to escape from the theory of functional harmony and to develop a new or more advanced view of tonal relationships are recognizable as being well informed and genuinely innovative.

Jazz is a complex artform, and like the work of Stravinsky much of its aesthetic value is argued over. Some hate Jazz, some love certain types of Jazz etc

Again, music is the perfect democracy as everyones view is valid and one mans opinion is as good as anothers.

But recognition of the evolution of Jazz as a distinct complex artform has been hard fought for, and the knowledge and creative genius of thelonious monk for example can often be trivialised by the notion that authentic Jazz always has one foot in a romantic primitive root. The fact is that he was a very clever man who was creating a new sound from some very advanced ideas, based in turn on an advanced musical understanding.

Understanding the roots of music is important so we can understand how it has developed and therefore know what is going on today, but we need to be careful lest we accidentally diminish genuine milestones in the development of music or lest we find ourselves, through no maliicious intent, patronizing some great musical masters.

Jazz deserves to have its achievements recognized.


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM

The jury is out on a lot of jazz players today. Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor (all recognized in the jazz community but not crossed-over for the public). Albert Ayler, Charles Lloyd and many new young faces such as Esperanza Spalding. (She is hot!)
Check her out on YouTube.

Coltrane opened the doors with his shifting tonalities. One of the keys to his concepts, check out the bridge to "Have You Met Miss Jones" by Rodgers and Hart.

Today, I think jazz is considered as a legit art form by music critics. Of course, one person's cacophony is another's consonance.

There is an underlying kinesthetic aspect to jazz of all types. Also, virtuosity.

This thread relates to folk music as jazz being a development of African American
folk music more than classical music folk themes from European folk music. The jazz playing style was originally a musical expression that sounded like African-American singing.

Many of the African-American gospels and spirituals were played by New Orleans jazz marching bands for funerals and processions. A "keening" style was developed as a result like is done at wakes in Ireland. Singing and wailing were intertwined.

The music itself displays quarter-tone slides, glisses and wide vibratos as advanced
by the singers of blues, gospels and spirituals. The incorporation of modal scales from West Africa indicate what has become known as the "blues scale" and the blue note is
a "wail from a downhearted frail".

The blues carries through in jazz right up to the present day. Charlie Parker, Miles Davis,Theonlius Monk, John Coltrane and others have adapted the blues in a very sophisticated way that influences chord progressions and harmonic patterns.

There is a strong line of African-American tonality that carries through all of jazz.

When jazz leaves this connection it tends to become something else. So-called "Third Stream Music" which tries to amalgamate classical music and jazz has never really caught on to a great degree. Someone like Monk is closer to African-American jazz roots than he is to Stravinsky, Bartok, or Schoenberg, however, he has brought the music along in sophistication and subtlety.

Again, the Dizzy Gillespie quote about Louis Armstrong, "No Louis, no me" resonates
today in an understanding of the roots of jazz.

Racism historically has been a component to denigrate jazz as a legit art form.
As a result, bands like Whiteman, who ironically labeled himself "King of Jazz"
was an attempt to legitimize jazz in the same way that Sam Phillips tried to reach white audiences through acts like Elvis who could sing "black".

Louis had it right when he insisted on playing in integrated bands. He realized that jazz really does transcend the notion of "race" although its roots are unmistakable as African-American. Many arrangers in the swing band era adopted "licks" and "riffs" that came from Armstrong and fueled the dance bands of the Thirties and Forties.

Jazz could rightly be called an evolution from folk music.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:43 PM

Just to clarify that I used Stravinsky as a parallel and not as a comparison.

The Armstrongs opened doors, coleman opened doors, Bird opened doors, coltrane opened doors etc ...

I think fundamentally we are pretty much improvising from the same lead sheet here Frank.

lox


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:53 PM

When one door opens another closes...


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 09:27 PM

right guest,lox.

Runnin' the same changes.

Frank


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Subject: RE: It's traditional ~ but is it jazz?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 11:28 AM

Interesting and valid observations from lox and Frank. I do not disagree at all ~ the point I was trying to make is that contemporary N.O. brass band funk (or even electric-organ-and-guitar-band funk per, say, The Meters) is directly descended from early jazz, shares many of its characteristics, and is essentially another branch of the same tree that also includes the cooler and much more cerebral music that is generally recognized as "jazz."

More on Kermit:

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=33301

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=1414

http://www.satchmo.com/nolavl/kermit.html

(Wikipedia has an article on Kermit, too.)


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