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BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread

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PoppaGator 26 Jun 09 - 02:35 PM
Stringsinger 26 Jun 09 - 02:41 PM
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ard mhacha 26 Jun 09 - 02:46 PM
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Subject: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:35 PM

I just want to serve notice, but do not wish to say so by opening the obituary thread, up there in the music section, which would move it back to the top of the page. I would prefer to see it drop off the bottom of the page as soon as possible.

The celebrity-obsession we have to endure by living in the contemporary world is bad enough. Now we see the death of a very talented and very weird person, someone we saw grow from a precocious child into a very disturbed and disturbing adult, eclipsing the death of another celebrity (Farrah) who we first saw as a kind of mindless sex symbol but who became a relatively serious actress and, eventually, an absolutely admirable adult person.

I have also learned (from my young facebook friends) that yet another, more "minor," celebrity also passed away yesterday: Sky Saxon of the The Seeds.

I truly wish the best to everyone, may we all eventually rest in peace...but enough is enough! I woke up this morning to a Michael Jackson "special edition" of the Today show, and don't expect the Jacko hysteria to let up all weekend. Humbug!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:41 PM

Poppa, the thing that I believe should be addressed is the issue of child abuse by both Jackson and his parents. His death should be a reminder of the cyclical nature of parental abuse and how it needs to be stopped.

LaToya has been dissed by the MJ cultists because she alluded to that problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:41 PM

I didn't know him, but I quite agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:46 PM

All of the news programmes in the UK and Ireland have headlined the death of This weirdo, the world HAS gone mad.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:48 PM

PoppaGator, I share your opinion, but Michael Jackson was a musician, and so the thread will stay in the music section.

I'm not sure why it's deemed unacceptable to post negative comments in the obituary thread of a celebrity. The taboo about "respect for the dead" seems to hold strong sway here, but I don't see much reason to have respect for Michael Jackson. Pity, perhaps - but not respect. If we were to say anything critical of him in his obituary thread, we'd be likely to have wooden stakes driven into our cold, wicked hearts.

Michael Jackson was a caricature. There was a real human being inside there somewhere, but nobody ever knew him. I'm not sure that even Michael knew that human being himself.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:51 PM

I have to agree about the celebrity thing. I get a small number of important 'news flash' text messages from the BBC to my mobile. Since only the important stuff is covered, there was nothing about the recent announcement of changes in approach to the swine fever flu in the UK, for example. But for some reason, MJ warranted two messages overnight.

(I was also suitably depressed some months ago when the BBC website showed that 'the most displayed pages at the moment from Africa' were about Jade Goody.)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,NYC
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:53 PM

I didn't like his music,I thought him strange. I honestly think he up to no good inviting children to stay at his home. How can the world forget this side of him ? The media called him a great dancer ! all he did was jump in the air and kick, God help us if that is dancing. Good thread PoppaGator, I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:53 PM

Yeah - If ever the *truth* could be known, I'd prefer it over celebrity circus! I'm not happy that allegations of mollestation could be bought off so easily.
An adult does not seek for children, to sleep in their bed, without some ulterior purpose IMO.
If he wasn't so wealthy and iconic he would have been nailed long ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM

Don't mention that name, Dave. I'm still stinging from the beating I took after my "disrespectful" comments about J.G.
I hope the mob doesn't start a torchlight parade against anyone who dares to criticize Michael Jackson.
-Joe- (but I did like the Thriller video)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:03 PM

Hey. To me it appears that this thread is already more tasteless than the other one.

And I say that as a person who realizes full well the irrelevance of the 'rich and famous' to her own life and wellbeing. I agree that we are being beat about the head with this phenom, but I also realize that it's for but a brief span. Change the channel, lay down that magazine, redirect the conversation.

I don't have or heed the taboo of speaking ill of the dead but I do think that for me who knows little factual of the matter I can cut him lots of slack.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:12 PM

Ebbie, you're missing the point that open discussion is frowned upon on Obit threads, thus the OP found it necessary to create a thread where open discussion was allowed.

Considering it taboo to even create such a thread in order to avoid offending participipants in the other obits is err like uber mind police stuff... IMO.

I think the OP did exactly the right thing here.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:18 PM

I agree with PoppaGator on this one. I just made a respectful comment,
as I do when someone dies and I know who they are.

But, the reaction was a little ridiculous. People were blocking off
the streets to see Michael Jackson. They should be giving him some
space.

And, I don't see why we can't speak ill of him, though. Wasn't
the acquittal of the child molestation charges unjust, and the last
thing he'll be remembered for is the contract dispute? He was being
sued over breaching a contract wasn't he?
His last few years, he was revealed to be a criminal and got away with it.
At least it will come back to get him in the afterlife.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

Sheesh. Reminds me of the time I overheard my religious father and a religious friend speak of an absent person's perfidy and my father's friend saying comfortably, "I just tell myself that when he dies, he will be punished." Even at 14 years of age I was shocked at the callousness.

OK- I'm out of here.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Nancy King
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:39 PM

I'm with you, PoppaGator.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

Except Ebbie, for most of us who are non-religious, it really is just a moment of general discussion.
Not elevation or anything. Just general thoughts that arise as a consequence of discussion on some famous party's life and death, as indeed is IMO quite natural.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: meself
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:50 PM

At 14, I would have been shocked at the naivety. But I suppose that's just me ...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM

Oh, I'm SO glad that I'm not the only one who didn't like his music! And whatever we thought of him, he WAS a phenom.

But if I were king the newspapers wouldn't be allowed to write about entertainment and call it news. That would be for a separate publication.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM

Perhaps I'm in a minority in that I have never been able to listen to a jackson song all the way through, and can't stand that type of music(?) spectacle?).
Even the BBC News is running their comment on Jackson into the ground; I have stopped listening to news until the hysteria is over.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:57 PM

neither Micheal Jackson or his music , interest me,but innocent until proved guilty does,allegations against him are not proven,therefore he is innocent.that is aright every human being is entitled to.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:01 PM

The Los Angeles Times--which publishes about 20% few pages (they say, but I think even fewer) than previously--used five pages for MJ and two for FF in todays edition. I think six of those pages--maybe more--would better have been spent on California's budget (lack thereof), the US government taking over the economy, and or world problems from NoKo to Iran to Iraq to Israel/Palestine. Jeez, I wish my wife would agree to cancel that paper! Even the comics suck (except for Mutts and Zits), and they're unreadable unless one has perfect vision. Do not confuse Mutts and Zits with Mutt & Jeff.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM

Thanks for starting this thread.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS:bit thr I am boycotting the MJ oead
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:12 PM

I'm waiting to see if someone starts a thread called "I am boycotting the 'I am boycotting the MJ obit thread.'"


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: bankley
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:26 PM

great publicity stunt but hard to follow, unless you're Heath Ledger.

Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer also died on June 25th, but in 1876.

MJ was much more entertaining than Yellow-hair..esp. if you're Lakota


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:40 PM

I just added a comment "up there" before I saw this thread.

Yes! That thread should be down here.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:41 PM

"Michael Jackson was a musician..."

You're in charge, Joe.... I strongly disagree that his music was relevant to Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:01 PM

I think that it is good to keep positive vs. controversial comments separated. He was obviously a troubled man, but probably had a heart of gold and a case of seriously arrested development. One person at least twittered from the Iran revolution a comment about his passing. He was very important to a lot of people, and a tragic figure at the same time. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:07 PM

I'm also with ya on this Poppagator.

I was unaware of Sky Saxon passing away. Funny as we and an old friend/relative were listening to to the Seeds last nite.

I guess Sky was pushing it to hard for too long.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:15 PM

..Let's go to Michael Jackson's house the party never stops,
Be sure to bring your jammies, well, really, just the tops. (Tom Paxton)

What bugs me about this character is, I simply dont understand his popularity. I wouldn't go across the street to see him


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:25 PM

Much ado about nothing.

MJ was a musical talent and a musical genius and a dance genius.

These are beyond refute. His bank account is prime facia evidence.

Unfortuanately, for WHATEVER reason, he was a severly fucked up human being... again, beyond refute.

Whatever you do, boycott or cheer or feel sorry for him... don't laud it or impinge upon others. That only impinges upon you.

I would like to see this thread closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:29 PM

I must admit I never actually took much notice of him except when he made his attempts to fight Mother Nature - and there could only be one winner in that battle in the long run.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:31 PM

"MJ was a musical talent and a musical genius and a dance genius.

These are beyond refute."

Scholars differ....


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:43 PM

As to why I believe that the discussion thread about Michael Jackson deserves to be in Mudcat's above the line music section-

Some people here may be interested in reading my transcription of several pages from Tom McGrath's essay "Integrating MTV". That essay is included in the online Google Books edition of William McKeen's book Rock and Roll Is Here To Stay. Those pages remind folks that in the early 1980s television was not nearly as integrated as it is now [and in many ways it's still not that integrated now]. But these pages provide some clues-for those who are open to considering them-of the phenomenal, revolutionary impact that MTV, largely fueled early on by Michael Jackson videos, has had on the presentation and marketing of contemporary music. By "contemporary music" I don't just mean "Pop" and "R&B". I mean most contemporary music. And this impact occurred in spite of the problematic personal issues that Michael Jackson had in his later years.

Without any further comments from me, here is that partial transcription of "Integrating MTV" by Tom McGrath [pages 458, 459, 461, 462]

"... Nevertheless all involved with Thriller knew that getting MTV to play Michael Jackson videos was anything but a sure thing. The reason was simple: in the channel's first eighteen months, as it became a cult hit among white suburban teens all over America, it had played only a handful of black artists. From Bob Pittman's and everyone else at MTV's point of view, it was simply a matter of format. Ever since the MTV flag was planted in the moon, during the summer of 1981 the channel had positioned itself as the rock and roll station. And because only a handful of black acts-Tina Turner, Prince, Joan Armatrading, the Bus Boys-played what most people called rock and roll anymore, only a few of their clips had been played on that network. For Pittman, programming head Les Garland, and the rest of them, the situation was no different than radio, where few rock stations played black artists.

But that argument didn't fly with everyone. MTV's original head of talent and artist relations, Carolyn Baker, who was black, had questioned why the definition of music had to be so narrow, as had a few others. What's more as MTV received more and more press attention, a growing number of journalists and music critics and black artists really began to slam the network for its segregated view of music. True, the critics said, album rock stations didn't play many black acts, either. But other radio formats did, and black music was widely available on the radio. MTV, on the other hand, was still the only music video channel on television, and therefore, according to critics, it had an obligation to expose black acts and to educate its viewers to what else was out there.

... one week after the song hit no 1 on Billboard's Hot 100. "Billie Jean" video debuted on MTV." "Beat it" arrived a couple of weeks later,and if they were impressed by "Billie Jean", they were absolutely floored by "Beat It". …Costing more than $150,000 and directed by Broadway choreographer Michael Peters, the video looked like an updated, inner city version of West Side Story. They even got members of real Lost Angeles gangs to appear in it. But what made it great was the dancing. Michael dressed, in a red jacket, snapped and stepped, and shrieked to the music, this time with a hundred talented extras moving along with him.

Never before had there been a video like this. Almost single handed, this shy former child star had taken the entire field of music video and lifted it up a notch artistically

After "Billie Jean" and "Beat It" everything changed. Everything. With MTV spreading like never before, and Michael demonstrating how mesmerizing these promo videos could be, music video were suddenly everywhere."

[my italics added for emphasis; the entire available pages make very interesting reading. Prior to this afternoon, I hadn't read about that book. Hat tip to http://www.stewartcopeland.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10412 for mentioning that essay in a post that he wrote about the irony of MTV playing Michael Jackson videos in memorial to that artist [when that channel had resisted showing hardly any Black music videos until Michael Jackson's videos showed them how hugely successful that could be for MTV].

Also, if people here really want to get a sense of a number of Black people's feelings about Michael Jackson and his music, here are two discussion threads I recommend:

http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/26/open-thread-remembering-michael-jackson/#comments

and

http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2009/06/michael-jackson-remembrance-thread/#disqus_thread


Repeatedly, commenters to these threads-and others-note that Michael Jackson's music was a large part of the "soundtrack of their childhood" (or "their youth"). True, his music and his dancing wasn't in everyone's taste-which music and dancing are in everyone's taste?

However, for better or worse, it's unlikely that the music industry will return to a time when music was promoted without music videos. To a large measure, you can thank (or berate) Michael Jackson for this.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:44 PM

Michael Jackson was COMPLETELY irrelevant to me - I despise pop music and any drivel about 'celebs' has me reaching for the 'off' switch.

I remember, years ago, a mate of mine telling me that he was dreading the day the Queen Mother died because of all the weeks of bullshit we would have to put up with afterwards. Well, that event came and went and, to be honest, I can't remember much about it (must have made good use of the 'off' switch).

My mate, sadly, passed away a couple of years ago (a much more relevant tragedy to my life)- at least he doesn't have to put up with this latest avalanche of witless nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:45 PM

My mother told me as long ago as I can remember "Son, if you have nothing good to say about a person, say nothing."

She lived by that for the whole of her 87 years of life, and never, in all that time, did I hear her say anything bad about anyone.

You always knew when she disapproved of someone though. When that person's name was mentioned, she would turn, look out of the window, and say something about the weather.

A direct question would elicit the response "No Comment".

I wish I could say I've followed that precept, and for the most part I've tried to, but I am not made of the same stuff she was.

I still admire her, and I miss her more than I could ever say, especially on those occasions when I know I SHOULD hold my tongue.

One thing I do remember, though! Death was NOT a requirement in order for her to avoid speaking ill of her fellow humans.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:55 PM

Bill D... you should have read my whole post. Scholars don't matter a fuck. Royalties do. If you got a problem with that, I would suggest it's a problem with his being "rather strange" and not with his talent. Otherwise, your statement is illogical.

And so, rather than try to bring some sense of decorum and compassion to this thread, I shall follow Ebbie and leave... yet again... another thread... that just ain't goin anywhere except to nastiness and shit.

gnightgnu


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:05 PM

I heard a Jackson 5 track on the radio this morning - MJ sang way out of tune!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:07 PM

I taught him everything I know


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:08 PM

Well, the obituary thread was started by somebody who thought that Michael Jackson should be honored as a musician, and I think I'll leave that thread there in the music section to respect the thread originator.

The originator of this thread wanted to give a home to the comments of those of us who wish to be a little more free in our expression of disdain for the tabloid side of Michael Jackson. And I think we need to respect the originator of this thread, too.

I was going to say something about having one's cake and eating it, but that reminds me of the Weird Al parody, which is also inappropriately sacrilegious at this sad time....

These obituary threads on tabloid stars make me really nervous. I lost my left testicle on the Jade Goody controversy, and I regret that I have but one more to give....

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:16 PM

You can dismiss Michael Jackson; you can talk about the allegations against him. You can't deny that people around the world loved his music, and he brought a lot of joy to a lot of people.

Not posting slimy remarks on an obituary thread is just common sense. When bereaved fans (of whomever has just died) go looking for information, they want to read an obituary with the basic biographical information, cause of death, and positive thoughts. Mudcat isn't the best or in any way an up-to-date place to read about Jackson, but if someone is Googling "Michael Jackson obituary" they could land there.

Save the negative stuff for another thread. Like this one.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:19 PM

I'm with PoppaGator on this one. And with Frank. And with Kendall.

Michael Jackson was much more to be pitied than admired. He was exploited from early on, and what that essentially boiled down to was child abuse. He was little, he was cute, and he did have a bundle of energy and talent, which, frankly, I don't think was ever fully realized. He was crammed into a mold performing with the Jackson Five, and not really allowed to develop his own talent in his own way. When it came right down to it, the Jackson Five would have been just one more of many such groups had it not been for the cute, energetic kid. They needed him! And they used him.

Did he really want to be there? What choice did he have?

I'm not given, God knows, to seeking out television stories about Michael Jackson, but I do recall seeing a feature on him on some news program. It might have been "60 Minutes" while I was waiting to hear Andy Rooney grump about something, but I don't recall for sure. Anyway, someone (Leslie Stahl?) interviewed him (I didn't learn anything that I cared to retain), and then followed him when he went to an art gallery to buy a bunch of new stuff for his "Neverland Ranch" ("Neverland" strikes me as significant in itself:   the land where children never grow up). It was eye-popping. He wandered through the gallery with someone following him and taking notes. As he walked through, he'd point at something (without really looking at it) and say, "I'll take that one. And I'll take that one and that one. And that one over there. . . ."

And, of course, he had the money to do it with!

It was like someone going to a bookstore and buying thirty feet of books, not carrying anything about content, just to fill their shelves at home. All for show.

But I got to thinking about this when the child abuse allegations started. I heard some newscaster or commentator venture the opinion that, inappropriate as Jackson's behavior was, laying around in a bed with young kids, he probably wasn't actually sexually abusing them (he was charged, but acquitted). He just wanted to surround himself with children. Other children.

Because he never had a childhood himself. It was stolen from him at an early age.

I was reminded of the Orson Welles' 1941 epic movie, "Citizen Kane." One of the key scenes in the movie shows Charles Kane's future being planned. He is to be sent away from his beloved mother to protect him from his abusive father, to live with a banker friend of the family who will see to his education. Private schools, preparation for material success in the world, power and greatness. While this discussion is going on, you see the boy, Charles Kane, out in the yard, playing happily in the snow with his sled. At the end of the scene, the grown-ups come out, interrupt his play, take his sled away from him, and drag him off to fulfill the destiny they have planned for him.

Just as he dies (at the beginning of the movie—the story is told in flashbacks) Kane drops a snow globe (one of those glass balls with a winter scene inside) and says the cryptic word:   "Rosebud." That question underlies the entire movie. What, or who, is "Rosebud?" And what is its significance? Many people who have seen the movie missed it, apparently because they blinked at the wrong time or just didn't notice. But after all of the millions of dollars worth of art treasures are cleaned out of Kane's mansion, "Xanadu," and while the workmen are burning all the old junk that Kane also acquired, and wondering why he had gone to such great effort to accumulate all this useless junk (SPOILER ALERT), the camera moves in on a burning sled, as the flames blister and obliterate the name on the sled; the sled the boy Kane had been playing with in the yard when the grown-ups came and took him away:   Rosebud.

Kane may have been removed from his abusive father. But he had also been robbed of his childhood, to be groomed to become the Great Man he became. All of that material acquisition was an attempt to buy back his childhood.

I think Michael Jackson's problems might very well have stemmed from something quite similar.

Random thoughts while waiting for the tea water to boil.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:35 PM

gnu, you are the one being illogical. Since when was an entertainer's income an indication of his talent?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM

Thank you, Don...that saves me a lot of typing.

Gnu...I read it. I disagree that his bank account proves his genius. It proves the line attributed to everyone from Henry Ford to Barnum..."No one ever lost money underestimating the taste of the (American) people."

You notice I make NO comment on whether MJ was guilty of anything, or whether his weird childhood was relevant. I restricted my focus to the ***IMPORTANCE*** of him occupying all the news media and being treated like a major **FOLK** figure in this forum.

I stand by my assessment....and it is mildly comforting to see some whose opinion I respect a lot agreeing with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM

Copy of my post from the Wimbledon thread:

Does anyone else lament the fact that the tournament seems to have become infested with Jackson hysteria? When champions are asked to comment on his death before the tennis I fear relevant issues have become confused. Surely there are enough other outlets for discussion without ALL the media being taken over by this event?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 07:24 PM

All I'm saying is, I dont understand his popularity.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 07:29 PM

Fine... have fun with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 07:31 PM

Virtually the whole half hour of the evening news was devoted to Jackson again tonight. Although I pity the man I don't quite see why he commands this much attention. It seems that the cult of celebrity has really gone mad.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: topical tom
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 08:43 PM

I did not like his music. Didn't he settle a child molestation charge out of court? That just doesn't smack of innocence to me. I disliked his voice. He was a human being with many major mental and physical problems ,in my opinion. I see him as a man to be pitied but virtually deified? Never. Having said all this, millions apparently loved him and his music. I simply am not one of them. I guess we all march to a different drummer. This thread needed to be started.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,6 months younger than MJ
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 08:48 PM

as much as we caring, sharing, lefty liberals deplore human nastyness
in all its vicious horrid unpleasant horribleness and all other mean bad stuff..

must say http://www.sickipedia.org/get.php?today

was extra sharp and swift in its notorious bad taste bleak disgusting humour
presentaion of the worst in human nature's blah blah..,
within hours
of this dramatic breaking news..

for example, and clearly only notified here as an interesting cultural product
of creative transgressive folk jokery in the face of mass official media hysteria..

"Farrah Fawcett arrives at the pearly gates and Saint Peter Grants her one wish,
so she thinks for a minute and says "I wish all the children in the world to be safe".

3 hours later Micheal Jackson dies from heart attack!"


plenty more there to keep accademic knickers in agonising twists
until the next sad sorry celeb overdoses or ties a knot too tight in a cheap hotel closet.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 08:52 PM

PoppaGator - Yeah, okay. Whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: heric
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 09:48 PM

Peculiarly, I agree with just about everything everyone said, pro and con. What an enigma. I don't like his music or his videos, but I want to like him. I don't want to think he diddled any little boy's dingleberries but . . . well, it doesn't look good.

I am particularly struck by this: "There was a real human being inside there somewhere, but nobody ever knew him. I'm not sure that even Michael knew that human being himself."

Anything to add? Yeah, two things: I met one of his brothers a few times and the guy is 100% normal and nice. The other is that just last week I stumbled across this video on youtube. At 6:40-6:60 on the clip, you can see Michael at age ten in the audience. One thing is clear: That's not a kid who has has had music beat into him. Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 10:09 PM

"Using" the cute energetic kid. In 1970, which I think is when the Jackson 5 had their first hits, Michael would have been 10 or 11.   What do you think he had to offer musically at 10 or 11, which was suppressed by the group and kept from the musical public?

And very soon after the first 3 big hits, they gave Michael a solo. As far as I'm concerned that was the start of his decline. He was never again such fun.

WMMV.

Having said that, I have also read that the Jackson father did drive his kids hard.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 11:39 PM

I do not beleive that MJ:
1. Wrote his own lyrics
2. Composed his own melody

He did understand marketing....

Michael ... was the black-magic-puppet ... controlled ... until he seized control (at any cost) when it all spun out of control.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Some say there is another balck-magic-puppet ... still jumping today.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 04:06 AM

I agree with you Joe Offer


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM

Yesterday (26th June) the obituary columns in the Guardian (UK) newspaper were devoted to MJ and Farah Fawcett Major. The day before two obituaries had caught my eye, those of Heinz Spitz and Hortensia Bussia de Allende.

Mr Spitz had been born into a Jewish family in Austria. As a teenager he had been evacuated to Britain in the Kindertransport and his family had been murdered by Hitler. He had become a teacher of mathematics in his new country and educated hundreds of its children. He had lived a blameless life devoted to books and the theatre (his main love outside of teaching). In the obituary he was fondly remembered by his family and friends.

H. B. de Allende was the widow the Chilean President, Salvador Allende who was deposed in a coup in 1973.
After her husband's death, and the takeover of her country by the butcher Pinochet, she had campaigned tirelessly, from exile, for human rights.

These two got a few column inches apiece, Mrs Allende more than Mr Spitz. A day later MJ got a whole page plus several more pages elsewhere in the paper devoted to his death (including the front page).

Our culture has got some very weird priorities!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM

Yes, I think all this media coverage is way over the top.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:49 AM

I think all this nonsense on Mudcat is way over the top.People writing in to say they don't want to write about something! And they called HIM Wacko.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:23 AM

God and you think that Jackson was good


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: bankley
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 10:49 AM

'for each exquisite beauty, there is strangeness in the proportion'

Alexander Pope.... inscribed for Edgar Allan Poe at his West Point memorial


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 11:57 AM

Goodness, aren't we *lucky* to have so many different types of music to celebrate! And if, just occasionally, another genre of music finds its way into Mudcat, well....why not raise our hands in joy, for it may also bring other posters into this place, new blood...and who knows, they may stay and look around, discover some of YOUR music.

Michael Jackson was a Star from the moment he stepped out onto that stage on the Andy Williams show. He remained a Star for the next 44 years of his life, at the top of the tree.

Child molester?

Well, try this.

Hey, did you all know that (insert names of whichever poster you prefer) has been rumoured to be having it off with little kids?

And *that* is all it takes.

Now, you and I may know the poster who is ficticiously named, and we know what they're really like, but Joe Public has no idea, and suddenly, from nowhere a whole 'other' life is built up, stinking mud sticks like glue, held in place by those with twisted souls who love to see others squirm in horror and make money out of it all whilst they're doing it.

Nothing was proved.

Yes, the family concerned received a great deal of money, but let's face it, even that ain't gonna stop loose mouths from talking, if that's what really happened.

I had a friend who was a teacher, a history teacher. He was accused of molesting a young girl in his class. *She* used to phone him up, found out his home number and rang him a great deal, then, I guess when the affection wasn't returned, she made her allegations. He always denied it, but the damage was already done, the doubt became his life. He went downhill from there. A year or so later, after his marriage had broken up, he went out to the little shop in Horrabridge, bought a few bits, then walked up Jordans Lane with his rucksack, saying hello to folks he passed. He got to the top, turned off into the woods, just before the open moors started to come into view...and hanged himself.



NONE of us know what happened in Michael's case.

Tell me, what kind of parents would let their kids stay over at anyone's house they didn't know? You can argue that the parents themselves had ulterior motives and used their children to get money out of Michael Jackson. If that was the case, they sure as hell succeeded.

Tell me again, if Michael's lawyers had let the case go all the way, how do you know that child would have been telling the truth?

I don't know the answers...but then, none of us do.

All I know is that a highly talented man, one who gave pleasure to millions of people, not just a few, but millions, worldwide, has died and I don't think it's right to start spewing out the venom....because, apart from anything else, it makes those who are doing it look so hard and uncaring.

Peter Pan.

Let's go back to Peter, and Neverland, and Tootles losing his marbles, shall we?


J. M. Barrie...a man who had allegations of paedeophilia flung at him.....A man who took on another man's children and loved them as his own..Who looked after them after their mother's death and knew great sadness when some of those children died young...A man who gave birth to the character that Michael Jackson so longed to be....

Peter, the boy who never grew up. The boy who only wanted to play, to play with the Lost Boys, his friends, his loyal friends.

It's no good any of you putting Michael into the way you've lived your lives, because his was so different from your own. You cannot possibly understand what his journey was about, where it led him, what he thought, felt, agonised over, rejoiced over.

Was JM Barrie a paedeophile, or someone who just loved the happy, innocent minds of children, the minds of humans that are untouched by hatreds, wars, racism, evil.....the things that adults put upon them, eventually.

He created one of the most magical children's stories, that's for sure, one that nearly all of us have read to our own children.

What if Neverland really WAS built for children to be happy in?
What if Michael only wanted to see children happy?
What if he only wanted to surround himself with their happiness, catch up with a lifetime of missed childhood himself?

What if he was Good, rather than Bad?

What IF?

Finding Neverland

There are many people who adore children, I'm one of them, but that does NOT make those people paedeophiles, it merely makes us adults with the hearts of children, who love to laugh, to play, to have fun.

Just another way of looking at this whole thing. I don't know if my way is correct, but then...I don't know if your way is either.

Think out of the box, that's all.........try to see the good....


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM

On BBC news this morning their Nigerian correspondent interviewing the people on the streets of Lagos reported that there was not a lot of interest in Jackson. One young Nigerian resented his efforts to alter his facial colour, he stated that he insulted black people.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: heric
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

Sorry little Michael getting a thrill is at 3:40-3:60.

Yeah he's a human being who for some reason bothered to create a giant magic show.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:27 PM

Lizzie, I make up my mind according to the evidence, not wishful thinking. The evidence says he was a child molester. He was not found innocent, he was found not guilty which simply means the allegations were not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
In Scotland, I believe they say, "Not proven".


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:39 PM

kendall,
not proven is not guilty,not guilty is innocent.
personally I detest JACKSON AND HIS MUSIC,but I do not think he was guilty,and the allegations were never proven.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

Not proven: Essentially, the judge or jury is unconvinced that the suspect is innocent, but has insufficient evidence to the contrary.

in other words, to put it simply.... you're not guilty and don't do it again.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: heric
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:57 PM

lol


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM

Yes, but none of us know for sure whether MJ was guilty of child molestation, do we? We merely have our opinions. Those opinions are based on what we've heard through the mass media and by word of mouth. The information we've heard may be tainted, it may be misleading, and it may be wrong.

Once we've formed an opinion (the vast majority of us, I mean) we cling to it with the tenacity of a barnacle clinging to a ship or a lamprey clinging to a fish he's devouring. That's because of how our pride works. Our ego will not admit to having made an error. That's what drives threads around here to hundreds and hundreds of posts. Silly human pride.

And yet....we STILL might be wrong.

So don't imagine that YOU are in any position to make some kind of final judgement on the character of Michael Jackson or anyone else like him. You're not. You're just another person clinging to your favorite opinions.

* disclaimer: I am not directing the above post toward any specific individual on this forum, but merely as a cautionary statement toward all the people who might read it. Be not too hasty to judge others. Someone may judge you in a similar fashion one day, and you won't like it. It could even ruin your life. And you might STILL be innocent.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 02:18 PM

From a law site--written by a lawyer.

'In a criminal case you are either "guilty" or "not guilty". When the jury returns with it's verdict it will be one or the other. This is not much ado about nothing. My goal in a criminal trial is to get the jury to say at the end "not guilty" not "we find you innocent". The reason of course is that the law places the burden of proving someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt on the government. You don't have to prove your innocence. (like you could even do that). The person accused has no burden of proof at all. In fact the trial starts with one fact absolutely established, that the defendant is presumed "not guilty". The government must prove guilt to the highest standard the law allows and if they don't the jury has no choice but to find the defendant "not guilty".'


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 02:33 PM

Not proven is to be found only in Scottish law I believe, so therefore is unique in the annals of law.

Thank you yer honour..*bows to the judge and exits the court room*


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:08 PM

I'm a career law enforcement officer and I've been in many a court trial. I know what I know, and the evidence says he was guilty.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:10 PM

"...the allegations were never proven."

That means they have no photographs, All they had was testimony from a couple of 'alleged' victims.

They didn't have video of OJ at the crime scene either. People will believe what they wish.

*IF* MJ was technically innocent of 'molestion, he was still very much involved in inappropriate behavior in having underage boys alone and spending the night with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM

"...the allegations were never proven."

"People will believe what they wish."

NO...the law says innocent until proven guilty, whether what was supposed to have occurred actually happened is irrelevant in the eyes of the law, but obviously innocent until proven guilty doesn't exist in your narrow little world, good thing ignorance isn't a crime, some people would be doing life.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

Lizzie; for the first time ever, I find myself in total agreement with you.
Kendall, much as I love you, you are talking crap, and I detect more that a little prejudice in your posts.
MJ? Well I never met the guy, don't like his music, and have no evidence one way or the other apart from hearsay, as to whether he did or didn't break any laws.
I do know that he wouldn't be the first person to be denigrated on Mudcat, without both sides of the story being aired!
BNV


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM

Opinions are like assholes. We all have one, and as long as feelings are up against evidence there will be no solution. There is no further point in beating a dead horse and I lack the energy to waste on this crap, so I'm gone.

By the way. the court found OJ not guilty. How many of you believe he is innocent?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 04:07 PM

"Opinions are like assholes"

Yup.oh so true kendall*LOL*

I could care less either way about Michael Jackson, I was never a fan, prefering the far more talented musicians on the Tamla-Motown label (Smokey Robinson, and The Marvelettes come to mind)I merely state what the law says, without any agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 05:06 PM

..and I KNOW what the law says.

I also know the sage wisdom that says: "The purpose of a fair trial is to get together 12 honest people to determine who has the best lawyer."

I am quite aware that they had insufficient hard evidence to convict **Michael Jackson**, who had one of the better lawyers.. The same evidence might have allowed a jury of 12 honest people to convict Joe Sixpack from Wheeling West Virginia. You must know how these things go.

I am not offering an opinion as to his guilt, as I said before.

People will still believe what they wish. Some on both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM

This thread has done extremely well as a "boycotting" thread......


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:33 PM

I have little or no idea whether he was innocent or not, I'm not all that interested in the first place, and I will never know for sure. I would be quite interested if I had been directly involved, as in being related to some of the children in question, but I'm not, and this was never a story that interested me. This type of media frenzy story about celebrities and unsavory sex crimes holds little or no interest for me.

What interests me, though, is how much so many people find delight in obsessing over stuff like this, spewing bile at an accused, and the alacrity with which they all gather to "burn the witch", destroy the "outsider", crucify the accused, etc.

They really enjoy it. They get a lot of pleasure from it. That's what bothers me. It's just about as unsavory in spirit as the alleged crimes are. It's sordid.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:39 PM

PoppaGator's second paragraph has made it unnecessary for me to post another word on this subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:44 PM

An opinion from Chris Ayres, of the Times of London, who attended the trial:

"It is not that Jackson was obviously a child molester who happened to get lucky with a soft jury in 2005. That was not the case at all: the charges against him were overblown and should never have reached court.

The accusers were hucksters with zero credibility — something that should have been obvious from the beginning to Tom Sneddon, the red-faced, shouty Santa Barbara County District Attorney, who seemed to have made a personal crusade out of putting Jackson in prison. No, what made a little bit of your soul die every time you went to court was the spectacle of a man who had been so utterly corrupted by everything that's wrong with fame — to the point where he had quite literally mutilated himself."

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6586830.ece


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:55 PM

Well done Lizzie. For most of the others, how can you speak with such conviction about things that you admit yourselves are not known.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:38 PM

This tends to support what I wrote above about Michael Jackson's lost childhood. And it goes on to give a reasonably comprehensive run-down on the sexual abuse charges.

In all fairness. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: BS: Autopsy Reveals MJ Died of Food Poison
From: Nick E
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:03 PM

He ate a 10 year old weiner.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:06 PM

I posted this as a Facebook comment. Strangely, it seems to have been appreciated...

"So Jacko's dead? So what? He was weird (and this is someone weird saying this!), he shuffled around a bit to music he never wrote... Oh wait, he was rich, marketable even when in court & broke (I do realise the contradiction with the previous), etc. I hope I'll hear less of him dead than living. A bit like George Best & Princess Di... :-/"

What really made me laugh was the half a quote I heard that started "MJ was the first person of colour..." Yeah? Really? So why did the sad bastard spend all of his adult life trying to be white?

My annoyance isn't about his colour or his race; it's about his *denial*. He tried to be something that he wasn't. Not something he could have been; something he never was & couldn't have been. I do realise I'll probably get jumped on for that remark, as a lot of you won't see what I'm getting at; some of you will. In his case, the manifestation was (visibly, at least) trying to bleach his skin, change his face. At heart, it was running away from himself. Pathetic, in the original non-derogatory sense of pathos.

I've always felt rather sorry for him, alongside not being a fan of his music & not being interested in him. I'll metaphorically bury my head in the sand for the next couple of weeks until he goes away. After that, he'll be "Michael who? Oh, he was someone or other. He didn't change the world, did he..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Autopsy Reveals MJ Died of Food Poison
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:07 PM

So you've cornered the market on bad taste today, eh, Nick E, and thought you'd share it with us by starting a stupid thread?
    Messages moved to existing thread.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:27 PM

I suspect it's because I don't watch TV and don't listen to the radio that I am not getting affected much by all the media Hoo-Hah about MJ, and thus not reacting much against it either. It just doesn't reach me, therefore I am not irritated by it.

What I do is this: I open my internet page and check the news a couple of times a day. That takes a few seconds, and I don't have to listen to a pile of advertising. If any particular news item strikes me as worth investigating, then I read about it in some depth on the Internet...and later in the day in more depth when I read the paper.

And that's it. No broadcast media. No advertising. Hardly any hype at all to deal with.

I think, Poppa Gator, that if you (and many others here) also didn't watch TV as a regular thing, then you probably wouldn't be so annoyed by the media feeding frenzy that is presently occuring in regards to the death of Michael Jackson. It would rank as large in grabbing your attention.

It is possible to be quite well-informed without putting up with commercial TV or commercial radio, and it makes for a more relaxed mind and a happier one too, I think. The powers that be would be horrified if a couple 100 million people decided to do what I have done in this regard...because they wouldn't be able to control what they think nearly as easily any longer and they wouldn't be able to sell them all the crap in the TV and radio ads...and that's what media is largely about. Consensus is nowadays manufactured through massive media coverage to the saturation point. So is division and war between groups. People are so used to it that most of them just take it for granted. I do not.

The little hypnotic, blathering electronic screen in the living room is the main tool of modern enslavement through its conditioning of people's daily thinking. Read George Orwell and give it some thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:34 PM

One typo in the last post. Should have read: "It would not rank as large in grabbing your attention."


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 10:30 PM

"the main tool of modern enslavement through its conditioning of people's daily thinking."

... and that doesn't apply to the glowing monitor that you are glaring at as you type this post?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 11:15 PM

Not in the same way or to the same extent, Bill....although internet and computer addiction IS a major problem in itself. However, it's more comparable to many other common behavioural addictions than it is to the "passive receiver" effects created by radio and TV, and here's why:

1. A Radio or TV station stems from a single centralized source, and that source is usually a mouthpiece for some huge corporate and/or governmental interests. That source pre-censors what you will hear from it.

The content on the Internet stems from billions of separate sources, including individual people of every type imaginable...thus all possible viewpoints are accessible there. It's a free and open forum to almost everything humanity can offer one another. It is not controllable (as yet) by the centralized powers that be.

2. Radio and TV stations are primarily vehicles for corporate advertising and government propaganda.

The Internet is not primarily a vehicle for such advertising or propaganda, and YOU are the one in charge of whether or not you view most of the advertising and propaganda that's on the Net. You can easily avoid most of it and go to something else. It doesn't steal much, if any of your viewing time.

TV ads steal a big chunk of the available time spent watching what you want to watch. That is not so on the Internet, except on a very few sites there may be brief commercial interruptions, but you can usually disable them with a click.

***

You see, on the Net, I can talk directly to you and to millions of other ordinary individuals. You and I are active participants in the process, and we control our part in the process.

This is not true of TV or radio. I can't talk to you via TV or radio stations. In the case of TV or radio the viewer is not an active participant, he's a passive receiver, and he controls nothing more than the on/off switch. If he chooses to watch TV or listen to radio he becomes a totally passive receiver of whatever the station decides to give him. He becomes like a sponge, like a sheep at the trough, and must eat whatever is put in the trough, or eat nothing at all.

On the internet he can choose from an unlimited smorgasbord of "food" and he can EVEN do some of the cooking AND serve it to others!

That's what you and I can do here. We can communicate. Freely. To each other.

That's why the Internet works for me. That's why TV and radio don't work for me. I do not relish being a helpless receiver of pre-digested dogma from some major power structure in my society...via a radio or a TV.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 11:53 PM

oh



but

concerning your point 1 .... isn't a website "a single centralized source, and that source is usually a mouthpiece for an individual, organization or corporate and/or governmental interests. That source pre-censors what you will hear from it. I think as websites much like t.v. stations ... with a much wider selection. And like t.v. stations much of the content is garbage.

concerning your point 2 .... you cannot deny many websites are primarily vehicles for individual, organizational, corporate advertising and government propaganda. Many websites do include advertizing and many have annoying popups. Then again, we can choose which website we goto, and with TV we also can choose the channel we watch ... even make the choice of some non-advertising channels.

All in all, the WWW is now the new TV. In fact it is now being integrated with the internet ... i.e. internet delivering your TV channels for viewing ... hell, we can now surf for our garbage websites and watch our reality t.v. shows on the same screen ... we can even watch Bill O'Rielly and Lou Dobbs and participate on their websites in polls, blogs etc.

Yup .... we are now becoming slaves beyond the realm of viewing TV (a helpless receiver) ... we are not becoming real time particpants on the slave galleys. It's becoming harder to break free and control our lives.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 12:29 AM

Another note in the sad passing of a troubled soul. He might be all that & more but he was a mess & a life wasted on drugs should not be imortalized nor praised. That should be given to hose that deserved it not those that abused it. I feel the same way about some other kings.
As mentioned above, there are others that recently passed on that did far more than MJ but only got a brief passing note. We should be honoring those that we really see as heroes not celebs that climed to the heights & then blew their whole wad down the toilet.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:35 AM

From Raedwulf:

"I've always felt rather sorry for him, alongside not being a fan of his music & not being interested in him. I'll metaphorically bury my head in the sand for the next couple of weeks until he goes away. After that, he'll be "Michael who? Oh, he was someone or other. He didn't change the world, did he..."



Here's a few things he did, which probably changed more people's 'worlds' for the better than you could ever hope to do.


Michael Jackson Charities

Heal The World

Heal The World on Wiki


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:38 AM

And..just in case you can't be bothered to open those links, Raedwulf, because you're so busy wanting to promote your own image of Michael Jackson, here's the piece from the Heal The World site...

    "To all those who love him,

    The death of Michael Jackson is a great American tragedy. His heart had been battered on all fronts, but he believed in humanity and wanted to change the world.

    People are now remembering his music legacy, but behind the scenes, unknown to all but a small handful of people, during these last 7 years he authorized that tens of thousands be spent on maintaining the preservation of his charity organization Heal the World Foundation (HTWF).   

    Jackson started HTWF in 1992 and was designed to leverage his name, adding to the many millions Michael Jackson had personally given to charity. With Michael Jackson not happy at turning 50 years old, he stepped up his efforts for a multifaceted comeback.

    Following these final performances, it was believed that Mr. Jackson would live a long and full life, devoted to HTWF and serving his God and his fellow man, with his fans leading the way.

    The staff at Heal the World Foundation express our deep sorrow for the loss the world has suffered. We are devastated by the loss of one of the world's great humanitarians and hope that in his absence we will be able to take the torch of his legacy and give back to his memory the same beauty he gave freely to so many.

    We express our condolences to his family, to Michael's several spokespeople and representatives who made HTWF's expanded mission possible and more especially to his fans who saw him as a genuine inspiration and the lifeblood to our work. We love you as he loved you.

    With profound sadness,

    Mel Wilson
    Vice President
    Heal the World Foundation"


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 06:35 AM

"The staff at Heal the World Foundation express our deep sorrow for the loss the world has suffered."

"the loss the world has suffered"   ..... Whew, pretty powerful.

Up until Friday the world headlines were concerning the human struggle for democracy, human rights in Iran .... people were on the streets risking their won lives, screaming to be heard against an oppressive, lying leadership.

Now Iran is 2nd page news In all the media including the WWW). Lost behind the headlines "Jackon's Doc copperating with the police" ... the human struggle for basic rights and democracy seem's now to be forgotten.

Michael Jackson never touched my heart (a moment's silent in Congress??) ... but Neda Agha Soltan did, and the vision of human beings fighting for truth, freedom has.

I guess that's the bottom line for as to why I am posting to this thread.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 06:49 AM

Jackson made some of the best recordings of the eighties. The recordings have held up well. He was also the principle conduit in the popularization of street dance to the mainstream. He was talented, and by all accounts, hard-working at his craft.

Jackson was also clearly mentally disturbed. Care to make a list of the number of people throughout history who have unsuccessfully walked the tightrope between their sanity and their genius?

I had the LPs and loved them. When his insanity led him to criminality, as much as I wanted to buy the reissued recordings on CD, I couldn't bring myself to. Now that the estate will be settled in a manner that can no longer benefit him, I may finally have my wish and be able to buy the CDs.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:27 AM

Criminality?   

Below is taken from here, on Wiki


"1993–94: Sexual abuse accusations and marriage
Main article: 1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson
Jackson gave a 90-minute interview with Oprah Winfrey in February 1993, his first television interview since 1979. He grimaced when speaking of his childhood abuse at the hands of his father; he believed he had missed out on much of his childhood years, admitting that he often cried from loneliness. He denied previous tabloid rumors that he bought the bones of the Elephant Man or slept in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber. The entertainer went on to dispel suggestions that he bleached his skin, stating for the first time that he had vitiligo. The interview was watched by 90 million Americans, becoming the fourth most-viewed non-sport program in US history. It also started a public debate on the topic of vitiligo, a relatively unknown condition before then. Dangerous re-entered the album chart top 10, more than a year after its original release.[10][11][75]

Jackson was accused of child sexual abuse by a 13-year-old child named Jordan Chandler and his father Evan Chandler.[82] The friendship between Jackson and Evan Chandler broke down. Sometime afterwards, Evan Chandler was tape-recorded saying amongst other things, "If I go through with this, I win big-time. There's no way I lose. I will get everything I want and they will be destroyed forever...Michael's career will be over".[83] A year after they had met, under the influence of sodium amytal, a controversial sedative, Jordan Chandler told his father that Jackson had touched his penis.[84] Evan Chandler and Jackson, represented by their legal teams, then engaged in unsuccessful negotiations to resolve the issue in a financial settlement; the negotiations were initiated by Chandler but Jackson did make several counter offers. Jordan Chandler then told a psychiatrist and later police that he and Jackson had engaged in acts of kissing, masturbation and oral sex, as well as giving a detailed description of what he alleged were the singer's genitals.[85]

An official investigation began, with Jordan Chandler's mother adamant that there was no wrongdoing on Jackson's part. Neverland Ranch was searched; multiple children and family members denied that he was a pedophile.[85] Jackson's image took a further turn for the worse when his older sister La Toya Jackson accused him of being a pedophile, a statement she later retracted.[86] Jackson agreed to a 25-minute strip search, conducted at his ranch. The search was required to see if a description provided by Jordan Chandler was accurate. Doctors concluded that there were some strong similarities, but it was not a definitive match.[86] Jackson made an emotional public statement on the events; he proclaimed his innocence, criticized what he perceived as biased media coverage and told of his strip search.[82]

Jackson began taking painkillers, Valium, Xanax and Ativan to deal with the stress of the allegations made against him. By the fall of 1993, Jackson was addicted to the drugs.[87] His health deteriorated to the extent that he canceled the remainder of the Dangerous World Tour and went into drug rehabilitation for a few months.[88] The stress of the allegations also caused Jackson to stop eating, and he lost a significant amount of weight.[89] With his health in decline, Jackson's friends and legal advisers took over his defense and finances; they called on him to settle the allegations out of court, believing that he could not endure a lengthy trial.[88][89]

Tabloid reaction to the allegations put Jackson in an unfavorable light.[90] Complaints about the coverage and media included everything from bias against Jackson, accepting stories of alleged criminal activity for money to accepting confidential leaked material from the police investigation in return for money paid.[91] On January 1, 1994, Jackson settled with the Chandler family and their legal team out of court, in a civil lawsuit for $22 million. After the settlement Jordan Chandler refused to continue with police regarding criminal proceedings. Jackson was never charged, and the state closed its criminal investigation, citing lack of evidence.[92]

In May 1994, Jackson married singer-songwriter Lisa Marie Presley, the daughter of Elvis Presley. They had first met in 1975 during one of Jackson's family engagements at the MGM Grand Hotel and Casino, and were reconnected through a mutual friend in early 1993.[90] They stayed in contact every day over the telephone. As child molestation accusations became public, Jackson became dependent on Lisa Marie for emotional support; she was concerned about his faltering health and addiction to drugs.[87] Lisa Marie explained, "I believed he didn't do anything wrong and that he was wrongly accused and yes I started falling for him. I wanted to save him. I felt that I could do it."[93] In a phone call he made to her, she described him as high, incoherent and delusional.[87] Shortly afterwards, she tried to persuade Jackson to settle the allegations out of court and go into rehabilitation to recover—he subsequently did both.[87] Jackson proposed to Lisa Marie over the telephone towards the fall of 1993, saying, "If I asked you to marry me, would you do it?".[87] Presley and Jackson married in the Dominican Republic in secrecy; the parties denied they had been married for nearly two months.[94] The marriage was, in her words, "a married couple's life ... that was sexually active".[95] At the time, the tabloid media speculated that the wedding was a ploy to prop up Jackson's public image in light of prior sexual abuse allegations.[94] Jackson and Presley divorced less than two years later, remaining friendly.[96]"


Just imagine, for a moment....

A man who actually was little more than a child himself, a body shape that never seemed to grow to manhood, nor a voice either. A mind which decided to stay in Neverland for the whole of his life, trying to make things better for other kids.

Allegations are flung at him, because of the naive way he lived his life, leaving him wide open for the kind of accusations that eventually found their way to him.

Let's keep to the innocent theory here....

From that moment on, Michael knew that any further work for children would be out of the question, any further association with children too.

Imagine how you'd feel, if it were you, and no, don't give me the..."I'd never have done that in the first place' stuff, because I'm asking you to step into his shoes, naievity and all.....step into his life, inside his head....and imagine that the one thing you loved doing, helping children, had suddenly taken a twist so hideous that your life would never be the same again....

Of course, there are many who'll say he was a conniving paedeophile, but no, in my view, he wasn't.

At the end of the day, only Michael and the boy concerned, and his greedy father, are the only ones who knew the truth.

It's a terrible thing though, to have to live your life knowing that vicious lies are being told about you, and there is nothing you can do to make some people change their minds.

I'm just glad he's out of it all now, poor soul....

And hey, you can't blame him for the press choosing to not report on Iran, but I guess some will..They go where they make the most money, that's all, same as they did when they made sure Michael was hanged, drawn and quartered in their pages a few years back...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:29 AM

By the way, John, I kept my MJ CDs, but threw away anything to do with Gary Glitter.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:34 AM

Hawk, I think you're wrong on the TV thing. I watch a lot of TV and all the hoopla doesn't trouble me in the least. I guess the thing is that because I am such a shallow, NASCAR watching, dumbfuck, all of this grave concern over the problems of our celebrity culture are lost on me. Today's race is at Loudon and that's a great one-miler where the racing is always pretty good.

Y'all go on and have a good time. I'll be watching TV and even occasionally tuning in to some hoopla stuff I guess. I dunno' though........after reading all of the brilliantly posted reasoning here about how we're all going to hell because of celebrity worship, I might have to quit cheering a guy for racing a car as I can now see it makes me a shallow and ignorant dickhead.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM

I didn't boycott the original obit thread and I doubt that my stated opinions there will change. When I posted similarly to other forums my contributions were either thanked (Canadian Guitar Forum), or yanked (mandolin cafe, for mean spiritedness). At least we are free to speak our minds here. Being a discussion forum, I see no reason why everything should not be discussed that the people want to discuss, or that even one of us wants to discuss. No topic should be sacrosanct.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:47 AM

You've ezpressed it very well, Spaw. ;-)

The way I figure it, you watch enough NASCAR and shit like that on TV...and your brain eventually turns to chowder. Rancid chowder at that. You are no longer really able to think, emote, or defibrillate, and you are impervious to both commercial messages and physical pain.

This means that someone can walk up stealthily behind you and KICK you HARD in the nuts!........and you don't even react.

This means that you are no longer vulnerable to the woes that assail a more sentient being as he passes through the three-score-and-ten-or-thereabouts state of illusion we term "life".

You may have solved the eternal problem of existence, Spaw! If so....ummm...maybe you should write a book about it. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:54 AM

"No topic should be sacrosanct."

Well, except for...

Winona Ryder.

And Dachshunds.

Anyone who says anything bad about either one of them is an ignorant dumbass and should be banned from the forum for life!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:57 AM

Winona Ryder has no orifice so small it cannot accept a mangey Dachshund folded twice..............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 08:01 AM

You bastard. (grin)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 08:07 AM

now now children


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 09:27 AM

When addressing criminality the "reason" is called "motive". It doesn't mean we can empathize. But we can't survive if we excuse criminality. Not everyone who has suffered a terrible childhood grows up to be a criminal.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 09:51 AM

Below is taken from here, on Wiki

Well, all right, then- its from Blog-O-Pedia. Has to be true.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:07 AM

They should have a special graveyard for people who meet this kind of fate...people like Elvis, Hendrix, Michael Jackson, Marilyn Monroe... On all the tombstones just write:

Killed By Fame


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:20 AM

"They should have a special graveyard for people who meet this kind of fate...people like Elvis, Hendrix, Michael Jackson, Marilyn Monroe... On all the tombstones just write:

Killed By Fame"


They might do something like that if Elvis was actually dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:23 AM

(Incidentally, I'm waiting (though not watching) for the first tabloid to expose this as MJ faking his death, having plastic surgery (again?!) and assuming a new life and identity so that he could escape his financial woes. Maybe he'll disguise himself as a black man.)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:36 AM

If it were possible to bribe DEATH into returning just one deceased "star", Michael Jackson would be at the very bottom of my candidate list.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: 3refs
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM

I'm a fan of MJ's music, but not all of it. I do however think he was a genius, whether it was forced upon him by an overbearing father or not!
I was a teenager when Farrah caught my attention giving "Broadway Joe" a little rub. I thought of her often....
Ed McMahon's passing has pretty much been put to the back burner, and as a decorated veteran, that's shameful!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 11:28 AM

Ed who?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM

The horse ... that's who LH.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: 3refs
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 11:46 AM

Little Hawk
.......No, I'll just keep my mouth shut!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 11:50 AM

"I'm a fan of MJ's music, but not all of it. I do however think he was a genius, ... "

Here we go again! Someone claiming that Michael Jackson was a genius. What poppycock! He was a pop singer! He was a front man for a commercial machine that produced noises that some adolescents found pleasing. And many millions more adolescents claimed to find pleasing because they believed all the hype and the bullshit churned out, day in, day out, by an enormous marketing and publicity machine with huge resources at its disposal.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: 3refs
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 12:02 PM

Genius comes in many forms.
So, you think having the ability to take words and put them together in a way that may last forever is poppycock! I'm speechless!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM

Don't worry, 3refs. I didn't really mean that about Ed McMahon. Just making wisecracks, that was all.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 12:55 PM

I read somewhere that someone had said he was diagnosed with schizophrenia at a young age. While of course I can't confirm this, it does make everything fall into place. You can explain a lot with family dysfunction and excesses of fame and physical problems leading to drug dependence etc., but I don't think you can explain everything. Well, people around the world are certainly mourning and celebrating his life at the same time, and although his music went right over my head I can see his incredible talent. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 01:56 PM

"So, you think having the ability to take words and put them together in a way that may last forever is poppycock!"

"May" being the operative word!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 01:59 PM

I think Michael was on the Autism Circle, not the Schizophrenic one. So many, many talented people are on that circle, so many geniuses....

It explains his fears, his not wanting to grow up, his puzzlement of the world, his childlike behaviour at times, his innocence and gentleness...and....his immense talent.

So, so many geniuses and deeply talented people are on that circle. The Treasure of Autism so often carries with it such Pain though, but it gives us the Diamonds amongst the Pebbles.....and just for a short while, lights up the world in a different way, bringing in a way of thinking that the Pebbles don't understand, but they know that the Diamonds touch them, make them feel better, leave them so often astounded...

May there always be Diamonds in this world...and may the Pebbles learn from them to think outside the box, to see things from a different angle, to glory in the happiness of children....and.....to wear your pyjamas in the day time. :0)

Diamonds prove that ALL things ARE possible.

I know another Diamond and his music too is something quite extraordinary.

May they shine forever.


And now...back to the Pebbles who have never allowed themselves to be touched by the Sparkles..... :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 02:43 PM

< thread drift >

Categorically refusing to watch television or listen to radio in order to keep one's mind unpolluted strikes me as rather timorous, not to mention rather obsessively, not to mention snobbishly, fastideous, not unlike the kind of person who constantly wears rubber gloves and carries a spray-can of Lysol because they are deathly afraid of germs. It isolates a person from much of what is going on beyond his or her own narrow sphere, while at the same time depriving them of the opportunity to exercise their facilities for taste and judgment. It also leaves them in a very poor position to offer comment on what's going on in the world.

By watching news and commentary as presented by various sources, I learn to winnow the wheat from the chaff (granted, not easy sometimes, considering that there is often very much chaff and very little wheat to be found), and gradually find the more reliable sources and the more honest commentators.

Whereas commercial television offers a great deal of cheesy "entertainment" in the form of crime shows and dumb comedies, PBS gives one the alternative of many fine programs:   science shows, such as "NOVA," history programs such as the excellent documentary series' by Ken Burns, international affairs programs such as "Frontline," and many more.

There are programs like "American Masters" (recent presentation, a two-hour special on Pete Seeger entitled "The Power of Song"). There are also frequent specials featuring all kinds of music, from "Doo-Wop Hits of the '50s" (for those who are into that sort of thing) to "Live from Lincoln Center," featuring symphony concerts, song recitals, and full-length operas (for those who are into that sort of thing).

As far as television drama is concerned, PBS stations are currently running dramatizations of the novels of Jane Austen and Charles Dickens, along with their "Masterpiece Mystery" series currently featuring the novels of Agatha Christie—complete with superb acting and top-level production values. Barbara and I are currently following a gritty British detective series entitled "New Tricks," a team of "retired" police detectives reinvestigating old crimes, either never solved or about which questions still exist.

Even comedies. Current offerings on my local PBS channels are "As Time Goes By" with Dame Judi Dench (Oscar winner) and Geoffrey Palmer and "Good Neighbors" with Felicity Kendall and Richard Briers. Recently "Yes, Minister" and it's sequel "Yes, Prime Minister" with Paul Eddington and Nigel Hawthorn—a hilarious comedy, yes, but at the same time, a marvelous telecourse on how politics really works!

Radio? I listen mostly to my local NPR affiliate. News, commentary, discussion programs in which one is not yelled at or badgered, but in which differing viewpoints are presented and the listener is invited to use his or her own judgment;   News also from Canada, the BBC, and other sources. I also listen to a local classical music station, and another NPR affiliate that doesn't feature local discussion programs, but does play several hours of folk music each day.

No, you can throw your radio and television in the Dumpster, caulk the windows, and hide under the bed with your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears. Or you can look and listen, learn what's going on in the world—and use your MIND.

I am constantly amazed by people who brag that they never watch television or listen to radio and consider anything found on the internet or other public sources to be bogus, who, at the same time, will offer their totally uninformed opinions on the state of the world to anyone who will stand still to listen. Oftentimes they seem to be the ones with the most to say.

Personally, I haven't found my navel lint to be all that informative.

Don Firth

< /thread drift >


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 03:05 PM

"Even comedies. Current offerings on my local PBS channels are "As Time Goes By" with Dame Judi Dench (Oscar winner) and Geoffrey Palmer and "Good Neighbors" with Felicity Kendall and Richard Briers."

I really enjoy those as well (my favorite is Vicar of Dibley). They are like stepping back in time. Freshly naive and polite.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 03:26 PM

"The Vicar of Dibley" is one of our favorites too, John.

This has got to be right up there with the Great Classic Routines, such as Abbott and Costello's "Who's on first?"

Butter.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:21 PM

I've been racking my brains to try and remember some of MJ's "immortal words".

Hhhhhmmm! Let's see. There was some drivel on the telly last night about him, and I was in the other room on my computer, and I think I may have caught the "immortal words":

"Beat it ... something, something, something ... yeah, beat it!"

Yep, perhaps you're right - way up there with Chaucer, Shakespeare and Wordsworth ... possibly?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:21 PM

Didn't Michael Jackson die of food poisoning?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 05:37 PM

No ... your thinking of George Clinton ML boy ... but he didn't die from it .... and contrary to rumours his food poisoning was a result of Maple Leaf cold cuts. I think you would be pleased to hear that.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 05:40 PM

You know...there's another Michael Jackson who was a world famous beer & Scotch reviewer & writer. I have several of his books. He died a couple of years ago, and I'm sort of wishing I had started a thread about him. ...sort of....kinda.... a little bit...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 05:57 PM

Again I mention that this thread is a great "Boycotting" thread.... Really!!!! really ????????


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: gnu
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:03 PM

Ya gotta watch out for #695. If that is the stamp on yer pack of hot dogs... wait... WTF are you buying hot dogs for anyway? Eat sommat healthy, like bacon fer gosh sakes!

Oh... ahhh... sorry... I said earlier I was boycotting this thread. I lied.

I mean, if anyone thinks MJ was not a dance and choreography genius, well... I shall shuffle off.

Oh, yeah... anyone here make a million dollars walking on the moon? You bad.

Seriously, don't take any of it seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:32 PM

a real song and dance genius was surely Bill Robinson

Lets Scuffle

No hype and BS needed for this guy ... just pure honest artistry

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:33 PM

I'm slightly intrigued by this talk of MJ's music.. Which instrument did he play?
Ocarina perhaps?
No. MJ's music was created by very talented backing musos, often produced by Quincy Jones. I saw him at the side of stage at Wembley many years ago, and I could see the tape machine going round under the stage!
Yes he danced a bit, Jolly good, but I'm pretty sure that he didn't sing a note for real.
But he was bloody good at miming. Thats for sure.
Oh, and did he ever write a song?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:37 PM

Genius enough to squander more money than God. Really, if MJ is a genius, then the likes of Steve Martin ARE Gods.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: heric
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:40 PM

I just read in the news that his personal cardiologist couldn't get his personal home defibrillator fired up. seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 09:45 PM

The CTV channel here in Calgary ran a poll about reaction to Michael Jackson's death. Only 40% praised either his music or showmanship, the remaining 60% listed him as a child molester (28%) or of little importance (30+%).
Probably this is due to his limited exposure in western Canada, which was confined to rock radio stations.
He seems to have had a following in England, but little elsewhere in Europe.

In ten years or less he will have been forgotten.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:07 PM

Credit where it's due - he was very good at his job, but that dreadful rat song he did was unforgiveable. What next? ferrets? racing pigeons?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:11 PM

I'll say what I said on the other thread:

Any citing of either Michael Jackson or Elvis as a "genius" is proof positive of language inflation way out of control.   And when you have wild inflation, you get debasement--of anything.

Of course I wouldn't call any pop singer a genius. YMMV.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:17 PM

Nusrat Fateh Ali Kahn might have been, but generally I agree, Ron


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:50 PM

"Any citing of either Michael Jackson or Elvis as a "genius" is proof positive of language inflation way out of control."

Oh, there's a bit of that, no doubt. On the other hand, genius was inflated beyond its true meaning, so I guess it's a bit of a "turnabout is fair play".   I don't think the "genius" people are referring to with MJ is his singing or his songs. It has more to do with the whole entertainment gig. It's that he innovated the whole song-and-dance package in a way that changed pop music to an even greater extent than many of those who went before in the same category of entertaining (like Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly etc). A whole video industry was virtually built around him, and when he stopped entertaining, that video industry has languished since the late 80s, early 90s. He may be the most influential entertainer of his generation.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 11:14 PM

Liz said "I think Michael was on the Autism Circle, not the Schizophrenic one"

Forgive me for the drift here: A good friend has an autistic son, now a young adult. When I first saw the boy, then quite young, his father said that the doctors they were working with referred to the condition, at least tentatively, as childhood schizophrenia. Has that line of thought been abandoned?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 12:46 AM

I don't think it's "language inflation" as much as it is that the word "genius" has two meanings. On the one hand, it means a person of exceptionally high intelligence, like Einstein. On the other hand, it can mean an exceptional talent within a specific field of endeavor. "He has a genius for ________," is pretty common usage. While the two meanings are related,they certainly don't mean the same thing. Having a genius for entertainment may make one an exceptional entertainer, but doesn't make one a genius. Unfortunately, a fair number of people don't make the distinction.

IMHO, the only true genius to have worked in popular music during my lifetime has been Frank Zappa.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 03:54 AM

Smokey sez "that dreadful rat song he did was unforgiveable."

Oh gawd, I had mercifully forgotten about "Ben" -- now it's running in my head again like a rat in the walls -- thanks for nothing, Smokey!

To be fair, though, Jackson was only 14 years old when he recorded that piece of dreck. As a minor, I can't fault him for that; he wasn't the one who made the decision to sing it. Heck, any 14-year-old who had been forced to sing that song over and over could have grown into the type of troubled adult MJ was!

According to this article on Examiner.com, the song's lyricist Don Black suggested that MJ record it, after plans to have Donny Osmond sing it (eek!) apparently fell through. So blame Black... and blame him and Walter Scharf for writing the blasted song in the first place.

BTW, "Ben" became MJ's first solo song to reach #1 on the charts. It was nominated for an Academy Award in 1973, believe it or not!! It lost to "The Morning After" from The Poseiden Adventure. Seems it was a bad year for movie songs; the other nominees were "Come Follow, Follow Me", "Marmalade, Molasses & Honey" and "Strange are the Ways of Love." Talk about slim pickin's.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 04:08 AM

cannot believe how gillible the whole world is... MJ is not dead. He never needs to perform again, he's had practice having not performed for 10 years. He's been flown out and operated on so that he is unrecognisable. He was millions of dollars in debt, now he's 'dead' this will be paid off by all of you buying for his albums, visiting Never Land, and donating to 'the cause'. No bailing out by his family now! All of this crap about his Dr being under suspicion is just a smoke screen, a decoy. Wouldn't you lie for a good pay off? Take the wrap even?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 04:21 AM

About 4 years ago someone posted his death on mudcat for a hoax but it was deleted... I have a copy of it somewhere.

cannot believe how gillible the whole world is... MJ is not dead. He never needs to perform again, he's had practice having not performed for 10 years. He's been flown out and operated on so that he is unrecognisable. He was millions of dollars in debt, now he's 'dead' this will be paid off by all of you buying for his albums, visiting Never Land, and donating to 'the cause'. No bailing out by his family now! All of this crap about his Dr being under suspicion is just a smoke screen, a decoy. Wouldn't you lie for a good pay off? Take the wrap even?

"The nature of Jackson's foibles weren't extraordinary, though their magnitude and their reverberations might be. His finances were a shambles, but so were Ed McMahon's; Jackson's debt, however, was measured in the hundreds of millions of dollars and his assets included publishing rights to hundreds of Beatles songs and the famous, or infamous, Neverland Ranch outside Santa Barbara. Attempts to untangle his personal finances involved Citigroup, Bank of America and Goldman Sachs, Wall Street institutions more accustomed to resuscitating patients such as AIG and General Motors. The luminaries who flocked to his side to lend their assistance in his many hours of need while basking in his reflected glow included Ron Burkle, the Rev. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Johnnie Cochran. Who was exploiting whom in these relationships? It's impossible to say."


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:12 AM

Interesting theory about MJ, lemonade lady, but are you seriously suggesting that the Los Angeles County Coroner's office is in on this "hoax"?? Sorry, but I can't imagine that the professionals there would be willing to put their careers in jeopardy by making statements about Jackson's body, just so that they could help MJ slip out from under his debts and his obligation to perform a scheduled European tour.

Would MJ's doctor lie for a good payoff? Perhaps if he is unscrupulous. But the coroner's office doesn't have a reason to lie or to risk creating a scandal by accepting a payoff.

Everyone has to die sometime. Why is it so hard for you to believe that this was MJ's time?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:05 AM

I can't believe how gullible the world is - everyone knows that MJ really died back in 1984 during the filming of the Pepsi advert, supposedly emerging as this white guy in 1987 with Bad. And we all fell for that one, didn't we? The real MJ, it is said, is buried beneath the scenic railway in Neverland. Or maybe this is him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_IsJbgZDTw


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 09:39 AM

Like many here,I didn't like his music.

Like many here, I thought that he was weird.

Like many here, I could not see the point of the colour change, given that he was already a black superstar.

Unlike many here, I don't profess to be wiser than the jury who, after HEARING ALL THE EVIDENCE, found him not guilty.

Unlike many here, I don't think being weird is grounds for claiming guilt.

Unlike many here, I don't begrudge his fans their grief, their adulation of the man, or their love of the music he gave them.

He is DEAD! Dead is neither guilty nor innocent, neither genius nor fool. May he rest in peace when the world has tired of picking him apart.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 10:34 AM

I do wonder how the passage of time will affect the memories of him. The memory...um, history...of music may record his contributions more accurately than the current hyperbole. In my mind he was no Frank Zappa, Ella Fitzgerald, Jimi Hendrix, J.S.Bach, Glenn Gould, or Django Reinhardt, all of whom, I suppose, had eccentricities. I suspect that he will be the longest footnote in history, rather than the influence many believe. Time will tell.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 10:50 AM

Crediting popular entertainers with great intelligence is usually a mistake.

Much of what they do is instinctive.

No evidence that Elvis or Natalie Maines is bright at all, and George Jones in dumber than a tree stump.

Some geniuses are (were) Frank Zappa, Ian Anderson and Chris Hillman. Chris earned a Phd in math at the age of 54.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM

"Chris earned a Phd in math at the age of 54."

and Brian May of Queen earned a PhD in Astro-physics at about the same age...your point is what exactly?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:22 AM

The upside to all this is that Paul McCartney MAY get ownership back, to his own songs


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 01:07 PM

I had no intention of starting one of these never-ending discussion threads. I'm almost sorry now that I typed anything, because my whole point was to express my disappointment that we were about to face days and weeks of obsessing over Michael Jackson.

Also, please note that my opening (and, until, only) post including nothing negative or critical about Michael Jackson's music, most of which I've always liked, to a greater or lesser extent.

I enjoyed the Jackson Five stuff when it was new, but not especially more than I enjoyed the Tempts, the Four Tops, Martha and then Vandellas, Junior Walker & the All-Stars, or any other Motown act.

The more recent work is fine with me, too. It's unavoidable "life soundtrack," for one thing; here in New Orleans, we've heard the most popular of those songs every Mardi Gras season, as so many high school marching bands in the nightly parades always play each year's biggest pop hits. (If you haven't heard the St. Augustine Marching 100 play "Don't Stop Til You've Had Enough" under the flmbeau-lit oaks of St Charles Avenue, you haven't lived!)

I am simply disturbed by the Stalinesque cult of personality that has developed over the last 2-3 decades surrounding just about any "celebrity," and just DON'T WANNA HEAR ABOUT the (inevitably controversial) death of the biggest celebrity of all.

I will now stoop to make a couple of mildly negative observations that I had omitted till now:

~ Michael was, obviously, a talented singer and dancer. However, I have my doubts about enshrining him as a "musical genius" in the class of, say, Stevie Wonder. The real brains behind MJ's solo career, behind the sound of all his hits since he began performing under his own name rather than his family's, has been a TRUE genius, Quincy Jones.

~ Similarly, while he deserves some credit as a canny businessman who forsaw the power of an overlong music video, he was never a filmmaker. I'm sure his contribution of his own dance moves was essential to the success of the "Thriller" video, and I suppose he participated in the group choreography as well. However, most of the adulation he's getting about the video(s), it seems to me, is simply stealing the thunder from the director(s) and videographer(s).

Can we quit this ? Soon?

PS: I read only about halfway through this amazingly long thread this morning, after the long weekend; it got to a point where I simply could no longer continue. So then I just scrolled to the bottom to write this. (I got as for as where Little Hawk addressed me personally to write "yeah, sure, whatever.")


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 01:45 PM

It's a bit like opening Pandora's box, isn't it, PoppaGator?

My solution to escaping the insane media hype of these kind of events, as I said before, is simple. I don't watch the TV and I don't listen to the radio. I just read the paper, and that takes a few minutes, and then I can focus on other things. Problem solved! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 02:43 PM

This is why I never did the moon walk thing. I couldn't handle the fame.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:17 PM

I take it that nobody knew that my last post was a joke. Michael
Jackson died of food poisoning. I was leaving it open for someone
else to put the punch line in.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:20 PM

Wise choice, John. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:12 PM

It's actually not really much of a challenge to avoid Michael Jackson hype even if your TV is on. The one at our house has been on recently but it was Jan watching Star Trek or CMT. I even wound up watching some TV this weekend--an hour of "Can You Duet?". ( Jan and I duet, mainly country songs--our venues are usually parties or the tunnel at Wolf Trap. ) It was an interesting show--some duos have no idea what a duet is--and one really did.

Then later the TV was on again for a DVD of "Road to Singapore."   I was delighted to hear a reference to "When Yuba Played the Rhumba on the Tuba" and remembered that
the composer of that one also wrote "As Time Goes By".   Jan and I also found out Bob Hope was born an Englishman and that Dorothy Lamour's real name was amazingly close to her stage name--Dorothy LaBour was the real name, as I recall.

Any of those bits of info seemed to me more significant than Michael Jackson's career--and in my circles, it's probably true.

YMMV


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:14 PM

Dorothy Lambour was her real name.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:39 PM

Yes, of course anyone can avoid the Michael Jackson media frenzy on TV...just by deliberately watching something else on the TV instead. It's just that so many people don't, that's all. ;-) They tend to eat whatever they are served daily on "the news" by BIG MEDIA, rather like sheep at the trough or citizens in Orwell's 1984. And that's what worries me about the influence of BIG MEDIA on the public.

Josef Goebbels knew well about that sort of thing, and did it very effectively in the 30's and 40's through German radio shows and film clips shown in their movie houses. Just think how much more he could have done with a TV sitting in every German home! It is the ultimate brainwashing instrument so far known to man. All it takes is the will of those in charge of the government and the mass media to use it that way...and they do. They use it to sell products. They use it to sew fear and prejudice. They use it to get the public onside for an unjustified war. They use it to create division (in some cases) and to manufacture unquestioning conformity or consensus (in other cases).


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 03:08 AM

Food poisoning? I heard he suffered a heart attack after tripping over one of his kids' old prams.

So now they blame it on the buggy.

By the way, you can get tickets for the Jackson 5 Reunion Tour on Ebay at a 20% discount.....


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 12:19 PM

Saint's Alive! I agree with Poppa Gator, Don, and many others. Like Kendall, "I wouldn't walk across the street to see Michael Jackson." I'll go even further, I wouldn't walk across the street to see Michael Jackson when he was alive!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 12:50 PM

Wow, 159 posts boycotting the MJ Obit Thread. Oops, 160 now.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: 3refs
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 01:09 PM

Shimrod
"Yep, perhaps you're right - way up there with Chaucer, Shakespeare and Wordsworth ... possibly?"
I'll put my money where my mouth is, and say that more people could quote verses from a MJ or Jackson 5 song than could quote any verse, from any of the writtings, from all three of them put together.... The King James Bible not included!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 01:41 PM

Oh Jeeezuz

LH ... there ya go again ... now you have to go and bring WWII into "the boycotting the MJ thread".

Goddamn !!

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 01:50 PM

Little Hawk, you're assuming that everybody who watches television or listens to radio does so with their minds totally slack and their critical faculties turned off. Granted, some people do. But there are vast numbers who do not.

You seem to have a very low opinion of people in general. Beware of the "Fallacy of Self-Exclusion."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: 3refs
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM

As most are aware, eyewitness testimony, is the most unreliable evidence that can be presented in a court of law(Kangaroo court not included). I'm going to assume(not a good thing)that the reason for this is we all take in and process information a little differently. I read/watch local, national then international news and more often than not, I sometimes think they can't be describing the same thing/issue, or they are presenting opposing points of view! One side of the fence says this and the other says that! Who ya going to believe?
Ted Smith shot his next door neighbour Bill McLeod! That is the headline in the paper! It was a dispute between neighbours! That's what the story will tell you. What the story won't tell you is that Mr Smith sent out a very clear warning; McLeod get off my Ewe!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

"Little Hawk, you're assuming that everybody who watches television or listens to radio does so with their minds totally slack and their critical faculties turned off."

No, Don. (smile) I am assuming that many people do that...enough of them that it constitutes a problem.

YOU are the one assuming (or pretending) that I am talking about people in "all or nothing" terms, as you usually do assume about me, because that would make whatever I said stupid, and that would suit your argument very well, wouldn't it?

Read a bit more carefully, and you will see that I was not talking in all or nothing terms. I am quite careful not to do so, but certain unscrupulous arguers on this forum are always happy to ignore that and misinterpret what I plainly said...thus stretching it to some ridiculous "all or nothing" extreme position which in fact I do not espouse.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: fat B****rd
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM

wHAT DOES ymmv MEAN?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 03:54 PM

"More people can quote Jackson than Shakespeare, etc."

Obviously the standard of public education is extremely low, but that is another topic.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 04:31 PM

Little Hawk, it is you who are making unwarranted assumptions about me. I do read carefully. Remember, I used to work as a technical writer and editor. However, when you make flat, blanket statements the way you have the habit of doing ("People do this" or "people think that"), then one has no reason not to assume that you are referring to people in general. If you don't want folks to take what you write as absolute, all-or-nothing statements, then perhaps you should phrase things a bit more carefully.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 05:26 PM

Ping!

Pong!

Da, da, da, de dum...and round the Mulberry Bush we go once more...

Don, just go back to my original post. I didn't say "people do this" or "people are like that".

What I said was: "Yes, of course anyone can avoid the Michael Jackson media frenzy on TV...just by deliberately watching something else on the TV instead. It's just that so many people don't, that's all. ;-) They tend to eat whatever they are served daily on "the news" by BIG MEDIA, rather like sheep at the trough or citizens in Orwell's 1984. And that's what worries me about the influence of BIG MEDIA on the public."

"It's just that so many people don't"

"So many" means a lot of people, Don. It does not mean all the people, it does not necessarily even mean a majority of the people, it just means a lot of people.

And I stand by that. A lot of people eat whatever they are served by the mainstream media daily, and they don't question it. They take it as gospel.

I'm not suggesting you are one of those people, so I see no need for you to raise a personal objection to what I said. I'm not suggesting that a majority of people do that...although...it certainly wouldn't be unusual to think they do, would it? ;-) Remember the old phrases that we have heard from some of the greatest wits in American history:

"There's a sucker born every minute."

"No one ever went broke underestimating the stupidity of the American public."

That was also true in Roman times. It was true in Napoleon's day, and Hitler's day. It was true in virtually any ancient society, and it's true today. It's easy for a government and a mass media to fool most of the people in a country most of the time.

(occasionally, though, the people wake up to the fact that they've been fooled...and then there's a crisis in confidence, a change in government, or a revolution)

You know all this stuff already, Don. You could just as well be firmly positioned on the other side of the argument and insisting to someone else that what I said is so...had you said it first. If it had been your idea, you'd love it. ;-) That's how capricious the arguing mind is when it gets going.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:32 PM

"No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public"   ~   H.L. Mencken

The word "taste" does not mean the same thing as "stupidity".

There were many very intelligent people who liked Michael Jackson's product. They did so from an emotional basis, most likely. Also possibly from the "herd mentality".

The average American may not have quite the IQ measured in Japan or Israel, but we hold out own with the rest of the people of the world. We are a dammed sight more creative too.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:35 PM

Now...don't go into a patriotic frenzy, pdq! ;-) I love Bugs Bunny, Coney Island hotdogs, and baseball. I really do.

Still....I think Liechtenstein has got you guys beat hollow when it comes to creativity, flugelhorns, and pastries.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:42 PM

I think Liechtenstein has got you guys beat hollow when it comes to creativity, flugelhorns, and pastries." LH

I read that as "flagellation".


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:43 PM

I could not stand MJ, but I feel obligated to defend his "artistic expression" because it was creative, a hallmark of American culture.

Not that all new creations are necessarily good. Much of the creatuve stuff going on now stinks. At least he US ain't stodgy like much of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 07:10 PM

Fair enough, Little Hawk.

Nevertheless, you are in the habit of standing to one side in any thread in which there might be some difference of opinion and "keep score" in a pretty frivolous and, frankly, superior manner, as if you regard yourself as "above such petty squabbles." Petty squabbles such as matters of civil rights, for example.

You're obviously an intelligent guy, but damn, Little Hawk, forgive me for saying so, but that can get tiresome and bloody annoying after a bit.
"Lord, what fools these mortals be!"
--Puck, in Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream," Act III, Scene 2
I know you realize this, but sometimes I get the impression that you need to be reminded of the fact:   You're mortal, also.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 07:17 PM

There are more posts on this thread than there are on the Obit thread. This thread is not condemning the "hysteria", it's participating in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 07:19 PM

freda... hehehehee... yes.

Odd that people are still not talking about it so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 07:26 PM

here's my "participation"

Jackson stated that he was physically and emotionally abused by his father from a young age, enduring incessant rehearsals, whippings and name-calling. However, he also credited his father's strict discipline as playing a large part in his success. In one altercation — later recalled by Marlon Jackson — Joseph held Michael upside down by one leg and "pummeled him over and over again with his hand, hitting him on his back and buttocks". Joseph would also trip or push his male children into walls. One night while Jackson was asleep, Joseph climbed into his room through the bedroom window. Wearing a fright mask, he entered the room screaming and shouting. Joseph said he wanted to teach his children not to leave the window open when they went to sleep. For years afterwards, Jackson said he suffered nightmares about being kidnapped from his bedroom. In 2003, Joseph admitted to the BBC that he had whipped Jackson as a child.

Jackson first spoke openly about his childhood abuse in a 1993 interview with Oprah Winfrey. He said that during his childhood he often cried from loneliness and would sometimes start to vomit upon seeing his father. In Jackson's other high profile interview, Living with Michael Jackson (2003), the singer covered his face with his hand and began crying when talking about his childhood abuse. Jackson recalled that Joseph sat in a chair with a belt in his hand as he and his siblings rehearsed and that "if you didn't do it the right way, he would tear you up, really get you".


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 07:27 PM

and

Jackson donated and raised millions of dollars for beneficial causes through his foundations, charity singles, and support of 39 charities.

Jackson was accused of child sexual abuse in 1993 but the investigation was closed due to lack of evidence and Jackson was not charged. In 2005, he was tried and acquitted of similar allegations.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 07:54 PM

The transcript of that interview with Oprah Winfrey


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 09:59 PM

Oh no, not BIG MEDIA again.   The days of "BIG MEDIA" are over, if they ever existed.   Media are more fragmented than ever. Particularly when anybody who has a computer can get any number of perspectives and not spend one second more than he or she wants to on any given point of view--absolutely no chance for spoon-feeding a viewpoint you may not agree with.

And this is reflected in the decline in ratings of the major broadcasters--and the decline of newspaper circulation.

And while I'm certainly as interested in the 30s and 40s as anybody else, I can't help agreeing that dragging Goebbels into a Michael Jackson thread is just a bit much.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 02:24 AM

The days of BIG MEDIA are over instantly for any individual who thinks for himself and regulates what he's watching and listening to in an independent and aware manner. They are not over for those who passively follow the herd.

That's a matter of individual choice. It worries me when many ordinary people don't even seem to be aware that they have such choices in front of them.

I grew up in a rather unconventional family. We had no TV in the house till I was 17 years old! Can you imagine all the shows I didn't watch in those days...and which every other kid in my school classes did watch? (We also had no cigarettes in the house...in the 50s and 60s. Like I say, it was definitely an unconventional family.)

We listened to no commercial radio stations when I was a kid. We listened only to CBC, Canada's public radio show, and there are no commercials aired on CBC. You get to hear all kinds of interesting music and public affairs shows and talk shows on CBC that you will never hear on a commercial radio station. You get to hear original Canadian folk music and various ethnic music on CBC!!! You think the commercial radio stations will play that stuff? Fat chance. They will play their usual lineup of new hits and old standards that they have always played, because that's what their sponsors think will draw the most listeners, and so it's really all about money.

A public radio show like CBC is not about the money, it's about the content...and that's what it should be about...the content.

I basically grew up without the influence of commercial advertising by way of the broadcast media, and it made me a rather unconventional person, one who read a lot of books while growing up instead of mainly watching TV.

Most people grow up exposed to literally millions of commercials on TV and radio. That affects them, both consciously and subliminally, it affects their lifestyle decisions, and they take it for granted. I don't. I will avoid such advertising any way I can, because I find it annoying, invasive, and as a matter of fact downright intolerable. That's because I was almost totally free of it when I was young.

I've been an outsider all my life. And you know what? I like it.   I wouldn't have it any other way.

You're right, Ron, that mainstream TV is on the decline now. The Internet is clobbering it. And I think that's absolutely great. TV will either have to improve itself a whole lot or its decline will accelerate.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:18 AM

As I stated before LH, I disagree ... the Internet is now the new TV ...the new MASS MEDIA .... and a much larger MASS MEDIA



my apologies for getting caught up in this thread drift.

Now ... back to Michael Jackson and why I'm boycotting his obit thread ......

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 11:51 AM

Evidently my post disappeared in transit so here goes again:

Little Hawk, your dissertation requires a disclaimer to the effect that you did NOT spend most of your young years in Canada but in the US.

I would further note that a kid without television at home most usually watches it at friends' homes, especially when "every other kid in my school classes did watch" it. In fact, I know several adults without television at home are glued to tv screens at other people's homes.

Are you intimating that at such an early age you totally agreed with your parents' rules and reasons on the subject? That you were already so self-disciplined that you resisted any such exposure? Goodness gracious.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 12:31 PM

Maybe L.H.'s parents lived close enough that they could tune into the CBC from wherever they lived in the U.S.

CBC, September 9th, 1954

static ... static ... Marilyn ... static .... Bell ... static, static ... has ju..static .... stepped ashore ....yes .. static ... ladies and gen .. static ... Marilyn ... static .. ell .. has become the firs ... static .... erson to swim Lake ... natario ... static, static, static

The Lady of the Lake, great moments in CBC history.

Yes, L.H., me and probably the rest of us Canucks were there (radio, or T.V.)

biLL (feeling a bit of nationialistic pride on this rainy Canada Day)

now ... back to "why I am boycotting the MJ thread"


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 12:48 PM

This just in:

Michael Jackson is still dead!

(The ongoing hype reminds me of an old running joke from Saturday Night Live's opening season, when the world-class celebrity whose death stayed in the news way too long was Generalissimo Francisco Franco.)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 01:38 PM

I'll answer your questions, Ebbie...

"Little Hawk, your dissertation requires a disclaimer to the effect that you did NOT spend most of your young years in Canada but in the US."

I spent years 1-10 in Ontario and years 11-21 in the USA. We were located in the upper part of New York State, however, and were able to pick up CBC radio quite clearly there, so that's what we listened to. The political situation around us in upstate New York was radically different from that in Canada, that's for sure, (it was far more right wing and reactionary) and we were radically in disagreement with it for the most part. I felt like I was living in exile... ;-)

"I would further note that a kid without television at home most usually watches it at friends' homes, especially when "every other kid in my school classes did watch" it. In fact, I know several adults without television at home are glued to tv screens at other people's homes."

I occasionally saw some TV shows at friend's houses. Not a lot, but now and then. It wasn't a big deal to me one way or the other. Mostly I loved reading books. I started reading very young (before entering primary school), read everything I could find to read, including my mother's Agatha Christie novels, and it served me well later in school.

Are you intimating that at such an early age you totally agreed with your parents' rules and reasons on the subject? That you were already so self-disciplined that you resisted any such exposure? Goodness gracious.

Yeah, I took my parent's lifestyle for granted and I figured it was good. There was no smoking in the house ever...except if visitors came...so I detested the smell of cigarette smoke and I've never had a desire to smoke anything at all (not even in my teenage years)...though I have smoked tobacco in some Native ceremonies (that was a courtesy)...and I have smoked marijuana on a handful of times so as to find out what "all the fuss is about". ;-) My conclusion: it's really not that big a deal and I can do without it.

It's not that I was particularly aware of being "self-disciplined". It's just that I naturally followed the example that I saw in front of me every day in my own home.

My parents didn't lay down any rules about not watching TV or not smoking or anything else like that. There were no such rules in place. They just didn't have a TV, that's all, and they didn't smoke, and they listened to CBC. There were no rules about this or that, they just did what they did, and it seemed okay to me, so that's what I did also.

As for alcohol, there were no rules in place about that either. We sometimes had wine with dinner...or a liqueur after dinner. Maybe once or twice a week we would do that. I was allowed to have some if I wanted it. I never saw anyone get drunk in our family, and I've never had any problems with alcohol since.

If you make rules AGAINST stuff like smoking, alcohol, TV watching, then young people will rebel against those rules when they hit their teen years, and they'll run considerable risk of going too far the other way. My parents didn't make rules against anything like that...they just demonstrated a certain lifestyle themselves, and I followed in that pattern. It made sense to me.

I later did watch quite a bit of commercial TV, by the way, mostly in the 70s and 80s, and I enjoyed it a lot, but I gave up on it by the late 80s.

As for my parents, they eventually got hooked on TV. (grin) My mother now watches the bloody thing all day long! What does she watch? Mostly CNN and stuff like that. She's a politics junkie.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 02:01 PM

AHEM. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:33 PM

From YouTube:

Hitler finds out that Michael Jackson has died

(I think this same film has appeared before, with different English-language dialog dubbed in, as "Hitler doesn't want jazz played at his birthday party." Or words to that effect.)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:53 PM

Thanks, Don. ;-D Capatain Kirk is incredibly awesome, isn't he? I can only wish I was even half as amazing as William Shatner...God knows...but at least it gives me a benchmark to aim for!

****

My father is the guy to blame for the fact that my parents didn't smoke and we had no TV in the house. He was a bit of a nonconformist for some reason on certain matters. He had never smoked, in an age when virtually everyone else did, and he convinced my mother to stop smoking when they first started going out. (She'd only been smoking for a few weeks at that time, so she didn't have much trouble quitting.)

He didn't want a TV in the house because...

1. They were very short of money in the early days and couldn't really afford any luxuries like that.

2. He considered it trivial, escapist, and something that would waste a large amount of his valuable time...and he always wanted to be busy doing something he considered valuable (sort of a workaholic tendency, I'd call it).

My father was a very stubborn guy, and he stuck to certain ideas like that.

If it had been up to my mother and she'd been married to anyone else, then I'm sure the family would have smoked, had a TV, and done all the usual conventional stuff typical of that time period.

So it's my Dad's fault that I turned out this way, Don, such a purist as I am! ;-D Take it up with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:04 PM

That's hilarious Poppagator !!! LOL


thanks for sharing it.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:11 PM

It's good...but the one about the jazz music is best of all.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:14 PM

I agree L.H. .... but with all the hoopla about MJ going on, that was a much needed reprieve.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:14 PM

Yes indeed. (smile)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: heric
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:16 PM

The first I saw was about the Canucks missing the playoffs. Taken off by the copyright protectors and apparently the jazz one is too - I can't find it. This one probably won't be there long. It's a shame really as the "Hitler reacts to . . . " series is becoming a cult classic.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:36 PM

Well, it seems as if the translation of the Hitler-MJ video is pretty close--after all, Hitler is ranting that he is surrounded by traitors who allege that Michael is dead, and swears he will not leave Berlin without seeing Michael.

Who knew?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:59 PM

Little Hawk, let me follow your lead here- and I'm positive that you will find me even more virtuous than thou.

Not only did we not have a television in my youth we didn't even have a radio!. That, alone, should ensure me a certain stature here.

Better yet, neither my parents nor any of their nine children smoked in all the years that they lived at home. And no one ever touched alcohol. Oh, and no one ever abused cars or such like; we never had a car.

But we had books and games and we always had enough siblings around to play most any game and our backyard was permanently set up for long jump and pole vault and a sprint track and we had horses and dogs and we grew our own food.

Oh, so good am I.

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 11:44 PM

I don't trust people who never touch alcohol, Ebbie. ;-D

But here's what you don't know. When I was growing up we practiced vegetarianism and veganism, so as not to harm or exploit any of our fellow sentient beings, and we travelled around the yard suspended by helium balloons so as not to step on any little insects. We wore gauze face masks so as not to breathe in gnats, and we NEVER swatted mosquitos, but were happy to share our blood with the little darlings.

Furthermore, I got up at 5 AM every day and walked fifteen miles before breakfast, taking great care again to watch and not step on insects, of course!

I and my fifteen adopted brothers and sisters who came from every visible minority group possible used to hold "brotherhood and sisterhood" seminars to which all the local children were invited, and there we helped them rise above the evils of racism, sexism, and all other forms of prejudice by reading from various spiritual and ethical texts and telling parables that encouraged equality and tolerance.

No homeless animal, stranger or alien was ever turned away from our humble little door. One time when an alien vehicle from Andromeda crashed in our backyard we sheltered the injured crew for 2 weeks and helped them rebuild their vessel which we camouflaged with papier-mache so that it looked like a children's playset of Swiss Mountains, like from "The Sound of Music". They were so grateful that they went back to their home planet and cancelled their scheduled upcoming invasion of Planet Earth, since we were just too nice to invade!

The fact is, Ebbie, you and every other human being on Earth owe your lives and liberty to the selfless actions of me and my family back in 1959.

Beat that, sistah! ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 12:09 AM

Curses! Foiled again. Danged.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 09:20 AM

The oldest of four, my father died before I was conceived and my mother never remarried or even messed around. This made the births of my brothers and sister difficult, but my mother always managed somehow. She knew that I would need siblings and so gave birth to them.

We were poor, but so was everyone in our neighborhood. As a result, we kids learned to save and to make a penny go a long, long way. I remember that we saved bottle caps, washers, half-burned bags of doggy doo that our friends put on our porch as a joke (we used the bags to take our lunch to school), hubcaps, drowning puppies, the passengers of sinking ships, and sundry other things. There was always fun things to do, however, since my father had erected a gallows in the backyard before he died -- we used it for a swing set and eventually we all learned parachute landing falls by falling through the trapdoor. This familiarity with the gallows eventually saved the lives of my two brothers after they had a minor brush with the law -- of course, they were innocent and they have since gone on to raise innocent families of their own.

Sometimes we could help Mom out and bring in money for the household expenses, few though they were. I remember one time when my youngest brother won a foot race and came in at odds of 300,000 to 1, mostly because at that time he only had one leg and that was on backwards (he finally got the hang of using a zipper). Of course we didn't have any money to bet, so we bet nothing and won big. THAT really helped out with the bills!

Every morning we had to fix our own breakfast, growing, harvesting, threshing, and milling the oats for the gruel before we'd head off to school. When I tell of this everyone says, "...and it was uphill bother ways!" but that's not true and I'd be lying if I said that was the case. No, it was downhill both ways, a 270 degree slope into a crevasse that plunged into what seemed to be the middle of the Earth. In fact, we used the bubbling magma to heat our little mugs of watersoup, our sole luncheon item.

Once, while were enjoying our spartan lunch, some grown-ups came and asked us questions. All three of them were wearing red tights and had horns and tails, but since they carried pitchforks we knew they were just local farmers so we weren't afraid. They asked us about what they for some reason called "the upper world" and we answered with so much evident love for each other that the biggest said to the others, "Well, if they're all like these kids we'll never make any headway around here. Let's see about Washington, Ottawa, London, and other more productive places" and they left, leaving only a smell like burnt matches (with which we played, burnt matches being the only toys were had aside from the gallows).

Anyway, that's a little bit of my youth and I hope you enjoyed reading about it as much as I enjoyed living it. I'll tell you more sometime, if you'd like.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM

I grew up in the hollow of a gum tree, and used the tree's many nooks and curves for storage space. I learnt to test each new berry or leaf by rubbing its juice on the outside of my lips. If it didn't sting, or cause any swelling, I squeezed some more juice directly onto the lip, and waited a while to see if there was any reaction. If not, the juice would be tried on the tip of the tongue. By careful testing, I learnt which plants could heal and which could harm, which seeds could be ground to form a chewy meal, and which leaves could soothe away infection.

My father taught me to follow the trails of the indigo spider. The indigo spider wove a spider web of darkest blue of the night sky, and in it caught little moths and butterflies, beetles and humming bees - of all different colours. As they struggled in their indigo net, their colours rubbed, rolled and streaked the indigo chains of silk, and the spider pounced. My dad would then sneak up, gathering the silken threads and taking them to his loom, in the branches of the old gum tree.

That tree was home for cicadas, buzzing in the evening, birds swooping back and forth, pecking, warbling and darting, parrots swarming, and possums playing.

in the morning I watched Playschool in TV, by cyber satellite.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 09:48 AM

That sounds so pleasant, Freda. We had to run a gauntlet of cougars and velociraptors and giant people-eating bats (and worse) just to go out the back door to play on the gallows. Of course, we always saved those we had to kill so we'd have something for dinner, and we ALWAYS wiped our feet before coming back into the house. We couldn't afford shoes, so we painted our feet black or brown and carefully drew laces. We had our pride, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 10:31 AM

Har! Har! Har!

Man, this is getting good. I wonder if Chongo has any childhood tales to tell?

Looks like the MJ boycott thread is now totally derailed...but that's okay.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 04:01 AM

oops...

I've been around the world a couple of time, or maybe more,
I've seen the sights, I've had delights on ev'ery foreign shore,
But when my friends all ask me the place that I adore,
I tell them right away.

give me a home among the gum trees
With lots of plum trees, a sheep or two, a kangaroo.
A clothesline out the back, verandah out the front
And an old rocking chair.

You can see me in the kitchen cooking up a roast,
Or vegemite on toast, just you and me, a cup of tea.
Later on, we'll settle down and mull up on the porch
And watch the possums play.

Give me a home among the gum trees.
With lots of plum trees, a sheep or two, a kangaroo.
A clothesline out the back, verandah out the front
And an old rocking chair.

There's a Safeway on the corner and a Woolworths down the street,
A New World's just been opened where they regulate the heat,
But I'd trade them all tomorrow for the simple bush retreat
Where the kookaburras call.

Give me a home among the gum trees.
With lots of plum trees, a sheep or two, a kangaroo.
A clothesline out the back, verandah out the front
And an old rocking chair.

Some people like their houses with fences all around,
Others live in mansions, and some beneath the ground,
But me, I like the bush, you know, with rabbits running round
And a pumpkin vine out the back.

Give me a home among the gum trees.
With lots of plum trees, a sheep or two, a kangaroo.
A clothesline out the back, verandah out the front
And an old rocking chair...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: fat B****rd
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 04:08 AM

Luxury !!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 04:20 AM

OK - y'all asked for it! Four Yorkshiremen


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 07:58 AM

Thanks, Will.   I can't believe I've never seen that one.   Of course we used to just dream about even hearing about Monty Python, let alone see it.

Really, that is one of the all-time classics (as you know).

And it makes this whole interminable thread wonderful (though Hitler's view on Jackson's death was also a great clip.)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 08:25 AM

The Hitler/MJ clip was great. My favorite Hitler parody (about the mortgage bust):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4i9myVRDsg

the "SS" gets me every time!

Couldn't find the jazz one...

Dani


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,daylia
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 09:22 AM

Memories of Michael as a fellow musician ... from a sound tech who knew and worked with him

"I was fortunate enough to work with MJ early in my career. He was an incredible artist. Talented beyond your wildest dreams. Extremely generous, and a hard worker...

Some random memories:

One morning MJ came in with a new song he had written overnight. We called in a guitar player, and Michael sang every note of every chord to him. "here's the first chord first note, second note, third note. Here's the second chord first note, second note, third note", etc., etc. We then witnessed him giving the most heartfelt and profound vocal performance, live in the control room through an SM57.

He would sing us an entire string arrangement, every part. Steve Porcaro once told me he witnessed MJ doing that with the string section in the room. Had it all in his head, harmony and everything. Not just little eight bar loop ideas. he would actually sing the entire arrangement into a micro-cassette recorder complete with stops and fills...

During the recording of "Smile" on HIStory, Bruce thought it would be great if Michael would sing live with the orchestra. But of course, we didn't tell the players that. We set him up in a vocal booth off to the side. They rehearsed a bit without vocals in, then during the first take Michael sang, just about knocked them out of their chairs.

His beatboxing was without parallel, and his time was ridiculous.

His sense of harmony was incredible. Never a bad note, no tuning, even his breathing was perfectly in time.

Once, while we were taking a break, I think we were actually watching the OJ chase on TV, there was a news program talking about him being in Europe with some little boy. I was sitting next to the guy while the news is making this crap up. He just looked at me and said this is what I have to deal with.

I spent close to 3 years working with him, and not once did I question his morals, or ever believe any of the allegations. I wasn't even a fan then. I saw him interact with his brothers kids, other people's children, and at one point my own girlfriend's kids. I got to spend a day at Neverland with them. A completely incredible human being, always looking for a way to make all children's lives better. Every weekend at Neverland was donated to a different children's group - children with AIDS, children cancer, etc., and most of the time he wasn't there.

He was simply living the childhood he never had. In many ways he never grew up...

Oh, and one more IMPORTANT thing. I have never worked with a nicer man than Michael. He was gracious, talented as all get-out, gentle, humble, a perfect gentleman, never swore, was healthy, punctual, and just the very sweetest person I could have ever hoped to work with. Oh, what a brilliant star he was! Absolutely, gone too soon."

*********************************************************************

Posting this as a tribute to his exceptional talent and musicianship. Its the best, and most credible account of Jackson I've read yet. He's a few months younger than me .. I grew up admiring him, as a child prodigy. Never got into his 80's or 90's stuff - too "disco" for my taste - and I never fell for all the rot he's had thrown at him by the press and various leeches, vampires and bloodhounds over the years.

I've bookmarked a youtube video of him singing "Ben" at age 13. It had been years -- decades, even -- since I heard that song, but I couldn't get it out of my head the night I heard the news of his death. I could still remember all the words. Must have sung it along with him a million times, as a kid ...

anyway, thats how I will remember Michael - imo, its him at his very best.

Someday, press and public willing, he may be allowed to RIP.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 09:32 AM

You're right, Dani, that works perfectly.   Interesting how that clip from "Untergang" lends itself to several different scenarios.

Daylia-"Ben" is Michael at his peak?   I must have missed something. Is his tongue firmly in cheek when singing to a rat?

As I mentioned earlier, I loved Michael as a 10-year old squeaking:   "Get up, girl.   Show me what you can do". A great sense of humor shown by the producers of that. But I thought after the first 3 hits it was straight downhill.

Again, taste, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: daylia
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 09:37 AM

I don't even want to THINK about where that tongue might have been, Ron   =]   but I do know its fairly common for young males to adore rats. My boys loved their pet rats with a passion ... nasty creepy toxic hive-mongering little beasts that they were (the rats i mean, not my kids =]


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jul 09 - 09:41 AM

Good to read some kind and compassionate words about Michael, 'daylia', thanks for posting that, a joy to read, albeit tinged with such sadness about the lies being told about him...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,MG
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 12:33 AM

There are starting to be reports that he wanted to adopt the Octuplets, but the offer was not transmitted to the mother. That might have worked out actually. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 08:51 PM

Here is a joke that I received from a friend.

Farrah dies and goes to Heaven. She meets God at the pearly gates and God says, "Farrah, you have been a gracious person in your lifetime. I will allow you passage into Heaven and will also grant you one wish." Farrah replies, "Thank you, Lord. I can only wish that all of the children in the world will be safe forever." God answers, "It shall be done." 2 hours later, Michael Jackson dies.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 12:27 AM

I guess you're as dense as you are persistent, maple_leaf_boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: daylia
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:07 AM

in case anyone here still gives a hoot ... info/pics re Michael Jackson's skin disease

He wasn't bleaching his skin, turning against his own race etc. He was suffering from a fairly common skin disorder -- vitiligo/lupus -- that destroys natural pigmentation and leaves the skin spotted, ghostly white and extremely vulnerable to sunlight.

Its amazing -- not to mention depressing -- to watch how many people can become so blinded by hatred, jealousy, greed and meanspiritedness that they choose to ignore the explanation (its been around for years now) and continue to spew accusations/ridicule at him instead.

I think this world might become a better, kinder place if his words from the interview above were plastered over every TV screen/computer monitor for the next little while ...


"Oprah: So okay, I just want to get this straight, you are not taking anything to change the color of your skin …

Michael: Oh, God no, we tried to control it and using make-up evens it out because it makes blotches on my skin, I have to even out my skin...

But you know what's funny, why is that so important? That's not important to me. I'm a great fan of art, I love Michelangelo, if I had the chance to talk to him or read about him I would want to know what inspired him to become who he is, the anatomy of his craftsmanship, not about who he went out with last night … what' wrong with … I mean that's what is important to me."


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