Beginner Floor Singer

Subject: Beginner Floor Singer?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM

I know I should probably have trawled old threads, but it is much more interesting hearing from 'here and now' people ;-)

So I'm thinking about stepping up to Floor-Singing & maybe even thence to err like odd gigging or whatever the folkie term is (friends assure me that it's worth having a stab at...)
All thoughts on how to tackle 'floor singing' appreciated....?

Subject: RE: Beginnr Floor Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:50 PM

I will give it some thought then I will pm you,best of luck with your other replies.

Subject: RE: Beginnr Floor Singer
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:08 PM

Cheers Cap'n - as you may know I've followed your YouTubes for a while, and I wish there were more "trad singers" out in the pubic arena for younger people to draw from.

Subject: RE: Beginnr Floor Singer
From: Dead Horse
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:46 PM

Dont sing to the floor, sing to the back wall.
Deep breath - relax - go for it.

Subject: RE: Beginnr Floor Singer
From: GUEST,Graham O'Callaghan
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:59 PM

Hi Sister. I had run many 'masterclass' workshop for new and aspiring simgers at festivals. A key piece of advice is to 'know your own voice' and select material which suits your singing voice not just because you 'like the song'. For those starting out it's so important to give yourself a fighting chance of success ... for purposes of your own confidence.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Tangledwood
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:47 PM

Kristina Olsen gives some useful tips.

Link to page

direct link to zip file

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 07:02 PM

Nil illegitimum carborundum. Listen to yourself and to friendly criticism, and be aware that some sods are jealous. Always think of how you could do it better, make the songs your own and not just an attempt to reproduce someone else's performance. The rules of appropriateness apply- match the song and delivery to the audience. If you want to sing a particular way, save it for people who will appreciate that way.

Do as I say, not as I do.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: stallion
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 07:56 PM

I started because I wanted to join in but the singers sang in keys that were just awful for me. The solution was to lead the song, eurika!
Any way, I would recommend that you start in sessions, work out what works and what doesn't and then do floor spots. It really is hard work but the end result is worth it. There maybe some very tallented people who might say that it is a breeze but I find it very hard work but the rewards are wonderful, remember that the only place that success comes before work is in a dictionary.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 08:03 PM

Rule ONE ! LEARN your songs ! Singing into a book is NOT good !

Rule Two IF you play an instrument to accompany your self PRACTICE

Rule Three !! PRACTICE , then Practice some more

Rule Four ENJOY it !!

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 11:16 PM

Chose you

accompanist

well...

They can make .... or brake you ! Or take and .... bake you !

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Follow rule Four above....HAVE FUN!!! If you are sober... and having fun.... as a polished performer....the audience is getting what they paid for...a shared playfulness along with you...or insight...or melacholy...or memory...

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: the fence
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 12:51 AM

Totally agree with Leadfingers, also remember that you will never please everyone!!

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: GUEST,Ana
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:18 AM

When you're just starting, nerves can be the biggest obstacle - you know when you sing at home it can sound great! But, when you're on a stage your throat muscles can tighten and the wobbles can hit you. Adrenalin can either make or break your performance - remember it isn't just about delivering a song, it's also about engaging your audience. Practice finding your centre, breath steadily, warm up first and if necessary find a private place to run on the spot or jump up and down! Physical activity is the only way to nuke adrenalin.
Tight throat muscles can mean you start on too high a note - make sure you sort out your start note (instrument etc) before you start. If you blow the first line (ie wrong note) begin again!
Avoid beer - it makes you burb - and only have enough alcohol to feel relaxed (if at all!).
Choose a song that you know so well it has become a friend. It's ok to have a cheat sheet in case your fear takes away all memory of words - but don't read it word for word - a glance reference is all.
Imagine your notes are flying from a bow, and you're casting them to the furtherest wall.
Most importantly - smile, have fun!

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:53 AM

Talk to people and find out about singarounds and singers nights in a reachable radius of home. Get to as many of these as you can and sing. Talk to people some more once they're heard you singing.

Also find out about 'nu-folk'/acoustic nights locally. If they are anything like the ones up north, they like the odd bit of "proper" folk and some have the equivalent of floor spots.

As you're where you are, get into London some evenings.

This is the advice I would take if I could sing. As I can't you might want to ignore me.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:56 AM

what happens when you can't remember songs and the only way you can sing them is from a BOOK.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:59 AM

"Most importantly - smile, have fun!"
Seconded - if you enjoy the song, it's a safe bet that the audience will too - so aim to please yourself.
Remember - the audience is on your side from the word 'off' and wants to enjoy your song.
"It's ok to have a cheat sheet"
Don't agree at all - it makes you look as if you don't know the song.
If you have no confidence that you know a song, choose one that you do; if you do dry up in a song it's odds on that the audience will help you out, or else understand the situation and wait till you get it together.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 04:49 AM

1. Learn the song, inside out and back to front.
2. Practice! Keep singing and keep listening to how the song sounds. This is very, very important. Singing traditional songs is a bit like making bread - sometimes the song comes to life the first time you sing it, but sometimes you need to sing it over and over again before it's yours. Sometimes this means changing the time signature, sometimes you need to change the words around, sometimes it's just something about the way you deliver it. You get to know when it works. Don't settle for delivering the song "just like it is on the record" (unless it's a *very* good record!)
3. Listen to a lot of music. I've learnt a lot from Shirley Collins, Nic Jones, Tony Rose, Dick Miles and John Kelly, only two of whom I've seen live.
4. When you get out there, sing to the back wall. Very important. Start out in unmiked venues if you can - you need to learn to project. (I started doing this by accident, because I didn't want to meet anyone's eyes.)
5. As for graduating from floor spots to gigs, I'm not the one to comment - my highest attainment to date is a *pre-booked* two-song spot (there's glory for you). But my sense is that this requires a whole different set of skills from singing songs well - and a separate expenditure of time and effort. I don't find it easy to hustle or shmooze - and I haven't got a lot of time and effort to spare - so I've never really tried to take it further. YMMV.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 05:43 AM

Floor singer?!! You're worth more than that, CS. In any case, apart from the occasional singaround, avoid Folk Clubs like the plague; go for venues with a younger dynamic demographic who are far more likely to fully appreciate your particular talents; blag some support spots for local rock gigs; get the guitarist and drummer to lay down some dark droning grooves and enthral the bastards! Otherwise - open mikes, poetry slams, storytelling clubs, jazz clubs, nu-age, no-age, free improv, modern classical, Goth, Pagan, Witchcraft moots (they have these in Preston!), etc. etc. In my experience all these people are open enough to treasure a well sung Traditional Folk Song without the entrenched Traditional Folk Revival Attitudes. So finger out the ear & ear to the ground! Get a copy of Wire and see what's happening...

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 05:49 AM

"blag some support spots for local rock gig..................."
Unless you happen to actually prefer folk music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:05 AM

In which case, by your own admisson, you wouldn't go to Folk Clubs - would you, Jim?

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:27 AM

Knocking the socks off a bunch of Traditional Folk Revivalists, by the power of the voice alone, is my idea of success; being an intone-and-drone novelty support act at a rock gig is my idea of a dead end. Which is probably why I'm never going to get anywhere in this business...

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:44 AM

Folk Clus are fine , provided you have enough idea of WHAT you want to do , and are resilient (Politer than Thick Skinned) enough to ignore the Entrenched Attitudes of SOME Dyed in the Wool Old Fogies

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Marje
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:56 AM

A few do's and don't's, based on my own preferences and hang-ups:

Learn your songs. If you can't learn long ones, sing short ones until you get more confident.

If you can bear it (I, like most people, find this difficult), record yourself singing and listen to it critically.

If you accompany yourself, be aware that the song comes first, and the accompaniment should fit around it, not vice versa. Practice without the accompaniment until it sounds right, then add the instrument.

And whether you sing accompanied or unaccompanied, choose a comfortable key for your voice, and work out a way of finding that key (or the starting note, if you don't want to get technical) when you get up to sing. Get a pitch pipe - or just say, "Can someone give me a D (or chord of G)?" and they will.

Don't apologise before you've even started. I have a personal thing about this - so many singers begin by saying, "I don't know if I can remember the words to this one.." or "My voice isn't up to much tonight," or "I don't know if I'll get the right key.." These are your own problems and it's not right to inflict them on the audience. Sort them out for yourself. Everyone makes mistakes and gets things wrong, but good singers and professionals don't draw attention to possible problems before starting, there's no point.

Don't sing too slowly. It's harder work for your voice, and can make the song drag for the listeners.

Try to convey some enthusiasm for the song, both in the way you introduce it and in the way you sing it. Sing the song so that it matters. The tune matters, the words matter. Show that you care about the song and your audience will warm to the song and to you.

I'm sure you know a lot of this, but you did ask...

Marje

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:57 AM

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Suibhne O'Piobaireachd - PM
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 05:43 AM

Floor singer?!! You're worth more than that, CS. In any case, apart from the occasional singaround, avoid Folk Clubs like the plague; go for venues with a younger dynamic demographic who are far more likely to fully appreciate your particular talents; blag some support spots for local rock gigs; get the guitarist and drummer to lay down some dark droning grooves and enthral the bastards! Otherwise - open mikes, poetry slams, storytelling clubs, jazz clubs, nu-age, no-age, free improv, modern classical, Goth, Pagan, Witchcraft moots (they have these in Preston!), etc. etc. In my experience all these people are open enough to treasure a well sung Traditional Folk Song without the entrenched Traditional Folk Revival Attitudes. So finger out the ear & ear to the ground! Get a copy of Wire and see what's happening..
END OF QUOTE.
right,hear is what is wrong with the above statement,get the guitarist and drummer to lay down some dark droning grooves,all WRONG, the instrumentalists should be acompanying the singer,not the singer singing to to a guitarist/ drummers rhythym.
2.Please explain why rock venues/ jazz would appreciate Crow sister,does she sing rock? or Jazz.why witchcraft moots?does Crow sister intend to turn her audience into frogs.
why not mention Seances or spiritualist meetings,or conjuring/magic meetings.
Finally where does this idea come from that floorsingers are not of value,good floorsingers are,and most of todays ptrofessional /semi professional started off as floor singers.
Folk clubs are the best place to learn the craft of performing,many of them are not amplified so the singer has to learn to project.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:58 AM

Don't apologise before you've even started. I have a personal thing about this - so many singers begin by saying, "I don't know if I can remember the words to this one.." or "My voice isn't up to much tonight," or "I don't know if I'll get the right key."

What she said. Apart from anything else, it's effectively asking for people to listen & applaud out of charity - which may seem like a good idea when you're up there for the first time, but you should aim a bit higher!

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:59 AM

Good point Spleen, I should look at London.. I hear the Magpies Nest is fairly lively.
I also think looking outside the box, as SO'P suggests might be a jolly good idea likewise.
Though I think I will start by gaining a bit of experience at floor singing spots this Summer at least. Just to gain a feel for less casual and more focused presentation, in an atmosphere that won't be uber challenging.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:20 AM

get the guitarist and drummer to lay down some dark droning grooves,all WRONG, the instrumentalists should be acompanying the singer,not the singer singing to to a guitarist/ drummers rhythym.

See what I mean? This is the entrenched Folkie mentality which ensures the Revival remains mired in its entrenched, unchanging, non-traditional orthodoxy that runs contrary to the true spirit of 1954 which is all about change.

Otherwise I would say the drummer and guitarist should hit their own improvised groove regardless, a good pedal drone / noise over which the singer then does their thang, be it a Traditional Folk Song or whatever.

Please explain why rock venues/ jazz would appreciate Crow sister,does she sing rock? or Jazz.why witchcraft moots?does Crow sister intend to turn her audience into frogs.

Maybe CS might put her audience in touch with their Inner Frog, which is essential to discovering our Inner Prince, the men anyway. I've never encountered that sort of magic in a Folk Club fo a while. My point is simply this - non-folk audiences tend to be more appreciative of Traditional Folk Song than Folk Audiences; this is something I'm slowly waking up to.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:21 AM

thank you

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:26 AM

it is not the entrenched folkie mentality,it applies to all singing classical, folk , jazz ,whatever,the instrumentalist accompanies the singer,not the other way round.
you clearly know nothing about singing and accompanying.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:49 AM

you clearly know nothing about singing and accompanying.

Thanks for that, Captain - once again, the Folk Orthodoxy reveals the blackness of its inner heart! But in those few actual Traditional instances where Folk Song was accompanied (I'm actually with WAV on this one, with significant reservations) I might listen to the oppositions and random voicings of Davie Stewart's playing & singing and ponder the dynamics of voice and instrument and conclude that the two are heterphonically conjoined as a single entity, which is the approach I, clearly knowing nothing about singing and accompanying, tend to take to such things.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: BobKnight
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:50 AM

goatfell asks:
What happens when you can't remember songs and the only way you can remember them is from a BOOK?

I hate to tell you this goatfell, but there is no such thing as people who can't remember the words - only people who haven't bothered to memorise them.

There is a simple technique I've used for over thirty years and I NEVER go on stage with bits of paper/books, etc.

Start with one line memorise it - add another line, memorise it, add a third, then a fourth. Suddenly you've memorised a whole verse - carry on doing this until you've got the whole song - then sing it again and again until you've hammered it into your brain forever. You may have the occasional glitch and forget a word here or there, but hey, we're only human.

Now that you've memorised the song, you'll be able to add some heart and soul into it as well. I find most people who sing from books can end up sounding a bit "robotic" because they're "reading" the words.

Try it - It works.

Best wishes - Bob

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: BB
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:53 AM

Depends what you mean by 'floor spots'.

If it's a singaround, it's only one song at a time usually, and although you *can* sing anything you want to - and if you're only just starting out, you may need to do that - once you've got a bit of a repertoire, it's a good idea to try to provide some sort of contrast to what has been sung immediately before. Thus you're helping the singaround to function well, and it helps to keep people's attention. When you start out singing, singarounds are probably one of the easiest places to begin, and you will usually find terrific encouragement from all participants.

If you're in the South East, try going to Broadstairs Folk Week (7th -14th August), even if it's only for the odd day or two. We run the singarounds in the Sailing Club every evening, and you'd be very welcome. There are also other opportunities to sing there. Website is here

If you're talking about a two or three-song spot, try to build that set, so that there are contrasts within it - of tempo, of mood, of subject matter, of accompaniment - if you have any choice in that matter - and if you can, perhaps find ways to link those songs in your introductions. It will also help you to learn to build longer sets, if you're thinking of actually doing gigs.

Which is another point, of course. In singarounds/sessions, people don't necessarily expect, or even want, introductions, but when you're doing a spot, it's good to introduce the songs in some way. (See the thread about introductions for more detail.)

If the songs are important to you, it's probably wise to find places to sing where people actually want to listen, rather than talk over you - I'm not convinced that avoiding folk clubs is the way to do that!

Many of the other suggestions made are what I would say, too: practice so that you *learn* your songs; sing to the wall opposite you (it helps you to project); fix the right pitch (and don't be tempted to sing higher because it's noisy - in a pub session for instance, it's so easy to do!); make the song your own, not a carbon copy of someone else's interpretation of it; listen to lots of good singers (define 'good' - only you can decide what you think is so!); find out about singing and voice production techniques; but most importantly, love the songs and enjoy singing them.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM

Our old friend Severn had a bout of treatment that meant he coudnt go to work for some time , and was advised to take sensible exercise . To this end , he used to walk round a lake near his home , and pass the hour or so that took with singing the songs he 'knew' . The result of this was a FAR better idea of phrasing , and a higher percentage of songs that he really DID know . The last time I heard him sing, his delivery and performance was a HELL of a lot better than the previous time ! ALL through PRACTICE !

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: s&r
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:33 AM

I find it difficult to imagine music where the rhythm instruments follow the melody line. If the melody line sits over a rhythmic groove, a whole range of rhythmic interplay becomes possible.
Harmonized accompaniment should be aware of the melody line: if it follows that line slavishly then pedals, suspensions, discords and their resolutions don't happen.

However, if a singer sings at a floor spot, and is then accompanied by whoever, then I believe that the accompaniment should follow the song.

"the dynamics of voice and instrument are heterphonically conjoined as a single entity," fits my ideas.

Stu

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: s&r
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM

Going back to the OP - learn your song(s). Make sure you can start on the right note. If you are happier with words as a fallback lifesaver, wrie the first words of each line large, and use it as a trigger. Think about how you will start and finish.

Most important, when you are ready, do it. Good luck

Stu

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 10:09 AM

I am Crow Sister's very first and most ardent fan. She has a stunning voice and presentation. She really knocks the socks off of the staunchest folkies I know.

She sounds fantastic unaccompanied and equally wonderful with the drones laid on. Accompaniament is likely to appeal more to the younger crowd, so good advice on that score.

I wouldn't dismiss folk clubs, though. Got to start building your rep and cutting your teeth somewhere. The more experience you get with all types of audience the better. Well to remember that it is typically FC members who organise small festivals and book acts.

However this comment from SO'P" My point is simply this - non-folk audiences tend to be more appreciative of Traditional Folk Song than Folk Audiences; this is something I'm slowly waking up to." is sadly true at some clubs I have attended.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 10:34 AM

I think that you should definitely go for it, CS. I always enjoy your posts and your obviously someone with a feeling for folk song. I'm surprised that you're not, at least, a floor singer already! I'd definitely give you a hearing - but, I suspect that we're at different ends of the country.

As others have said:

- Memorise the words and don't read from a book or crib sheet.

- Start with something that you know well and can sing easily.

- Over a period of time, that you find comfortable, try and stretch yourself by working up to more 'difficult' stuff.

- Try and get some honest, supportive, critical feedback on your singing.

Just a little story: I've been interested in folk song for over 40 years now (which is enough time to get terribly jaded). I attend a little local, monthly singaround which I enjoy well enough. Recently, two young women, both relatively new singers, have got up to sing and have completely blown me away! One is so good that I think that she is one of the best singers that I have ever heard - a complete natural! I have to pretend I've got something in my eye every time I hear her! Who knows, CS, you could be that good - but even if you're not, I bet you're still worth listening to!

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 08:17 AM

Some people can struggle on for years and be no better than they were on day one. Others can sing beautifully from day one. Obviously there's a lot of middle-ground but CS is one of those rare people who can sing from day one - naturally gifted & suitably empowered. I can't think of a single Folk Club or Singaround who wouldn't welcome her with open arms. Beginner she may be but she could sing the socks many a seasoned pro with a freshness of approach to boot.

Experience isn't everything, and all advice entirely subjective, and often counter-productive; it is, after all, a different experience for everyone. That said I would think anyone who hears CS will be of a mind!

Go for it, CS...

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 02:38 PM

CS. You sounded great at Knockholt Mini Fest. I do not have a great voice but I do pratish, Lead fingers is right with his post up above follow those guidlines and you wont go wrong. I used to be terrified about playing and singing to a crowd but now I enjoy it I smile while Im playing bounce up and down to enharnch me rythum and laugh off any mastakes.Pratish and Enjoy.
Regards Pierre.
Sorry about spelling drank to much Wine.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 02:48 PM

Pierre ! You CANT drink too much wine , Only ENOUGH , and then you fall over !

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 02:50 PM

Crow Sister, you are being silly. You are excellent. Just do what you do. If anyone fails to appreciate it it is their loss.

You might find it pleasing to listen to Marian Button.

Of well-known recorded artists, I am sure you already listen to June Tabor, but her delivery is impeccable.

Subject: RE: Beginner Floor Singer
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 03:15 PM

Practice has improved my vocal delivery over the last few months - in fact I did an off the cuff rendering of KB's 'Wuthering Heights' a week ago and surprised myself - as it came out surprisingly well (at least it surprised me), certainly much better than I recall it used to! Just a case of regularly practicing folk songs (rather than KB). So, I'm far less concerned with the vocal delivery side of things, than knowing how to actually give a proper competent 'rounded' performance. I have the breath control pretty much nailed, and am happy with elements such as phrasing and ornament (though I'm not sophisticated here I'm happy enough with it).

Standing up and singing a song amongst friends, seems far different to standing on stage and doing a set, however. I've gotta get used to the idea of giving introductions (as suggested above) I think - which means fuller reading around the songs I know and fully memorising key information.

I think what I will do is look at the songs (not all that many as yet - only something like thirty five I think, but it'll do for now) I currently know and see how many ways I can thematically group them - and then think about the ways each grouping can give me a 'plot' for generating introductions.

And I also know I need to embed the songs I currently know far deeper, to avoid sudden 'blanks' - as I still get that! I like the morning constitutional combined with song practice - I need to be a little more focused with daily practice, if I want to be more serious about it. And hopefully that'll sort that one out.

Another thing I know I need to develop, is personal interpretation, I need to gain more confidence with interpreting the song for myself - as Pip says exploring the rythm, meter, ornament and so-on. Not confident with that stuff at all, so much easier to imitate... (though I have found that given long enough, the version I learned the song off, does eventually seems to slowly 'fade'.) Hopefully confidence with interpretation will come if I make more purposive efforts to tackle that area.

And thanks for the generous comments too..