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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,baz parkes Date: 01 Jul 09 - 05:07 AM Quoting Ruth "If sides who practice this tradition are going to black up, I'd much rather they were honest with themselves, and with anyone who might enquire about the tradition." I think those sides who care about the tradition are...it's those who dance a type of "border" because they like to wear fancy dress that don't. I've never seen Motley dance, so wouldn't like to judge here And Ruth again "from anything else, I don't like the spread of fakelore," And,again, neither do the sides that care... Sadly when you're just about to dance or play and someone asks you why you black up, you rarely have time to go through the options, and said member of the public has usuually disappeared by the time you have time to explain... |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: TheSnail Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:02 AM Just for the record, GUEST,Rick H has never posted to Mudcat before or since under that name and there is no-one called Rick among the named officers on the Motley Morris web site. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,DizzyLisa Motley Muso Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:11 AM I was wary of adding anything to this thread as I know how quickly Mudcat often descends into mudsling. However I must speak in defence of Rick H who is one of the nicest people you could hope to meet. Who here has not castigated the chavvy element which spoil so many of our festivals – especially Sweeps. I get the point he was trying to make, though certain aspects could have been omitted. On the point of blacking up… yes we could change the colour of our faces and we have considered it. However the kit was designed to create visual impact over 20 years ago. Single bright colour tatters which provide a contrast to the black faces. We could paint our faces in the colour of our tatters but unless the face was exactly the same colour as the tatters – the impact would be lost. We have a vast array of colours and not all are available as face paints. The blacking is messy and sweaty in the summer but we feel that the visual effect is worth it. You can see us dancing here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eonC7Wv_k5o |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:19 AM DissyLisa Did you tell the school about blacking up when you took the booking? |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Royston Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:24 AM Richard, of course you are not racist. Of all the people I know you are one of the furthest from that description. I do feel though that whilst your academic investigation of the roots of blackface, and your careful conclusions do not address the real issue of what people actually feel and nor does it address the overtly racist modern development of border morris. It also misses the overt public racism of some border morris practitioners, i.e. Their co.uk website. If anyone seriously believes that blacking up creates only imagined sleight in the minds of white folk then they are free to come to my place in Lewisham in full make-up. I won't stand alongside you but I promise to call the ambulance for you. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:52 AM There will be a delay in further postings by me here, pending my receipt of further research. I have spent a half hour on the phone with a very well informed person who assures me inter alia that it is virtually certain that the oldest part of morris costume is blackface - but he is not computerate and I am going to have to print the thread and post it my snailmail to him, and then await his handwritten response that I will need to type up and post here. I would also say to Pip - thank you for your consideration but anyone who knows me in person will be well aware that I would rather be right than anything! What worries me is if I think I might be wrong, and for a while you had me rattled there, but I feel much more comfortable now. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Sandman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:41 AM the onus was on the head teacher,to check about morris sides,five minutes reserach on the computer by this ignoramus and this situation would have been avoided, and she could have booked a Cotswold Morris side,and the children would have learned about an English tradition. I do not find it offensive when japanese or black people whiten their face as disguise,consequently I do not feel that black people should be offended by people browning/blacking up. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:44 AM We can argue until we're blue in the face Maybe that's the idea? Dizzy Lisa - "over 20 years ago"? What, you mean this is a tradition that goes back to that dim and distant age slightly before Acid House? I'm amazed the archives have survived that long! |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,DizzyLisa Motley Muso Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:47 AM We were booked on the strength of our website (which contains a link to our myspace page, containing over 700 photos) http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewAlbums&friendID=168289144 This was NOT a paid stand – it was a goodwill gesture to a local school. There was no loss of money involved but people had made space in their busy lives to attend. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Bloke from Poole Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:56 AM Ruth quotes: "There would seem to be little doubt that the black faces of the traditional morris dance groups of the Welsh Border counties were at least influenced by minstrelsy. The occasional use of banjoes, bones and tambourines in these morris dances cannot be mere coincidence." I have danced Cotswold to musos playing banjo, and tambourines - although I'm not sure about bones - spoons, though. Does this mean I'm a racist? (and guitar, ukelele, flute, recorder, even a tuba...) Dance sides of all shapes and sizes have used whatever instruments and musos were available. The above quote, however, is simply opinion ("would seem..." "cannot be...") It is perfectly possible that banjoes were popular at a given time as a result of minstrel shows. But someone who has learnt to play banjo as a result subsequently playing for a morris side doesn't provide a very convincing link to racism, intended or otherwise. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:59 AM Richard Like you I have been investigating and have been in touch with 2 Border teams. I am concerned that I do not support anything that is rascist and therefore feel that I need to investigate further, to the point where it can be proven that blacking up in the Border Morris case was to do with disguise and not for any other reason. Having spoken to these 2 teams, it would seem that they are trying to keep the traditon going that their forefathers did. As far as they are concerned the issue of blacking up is related to disguise and nothing else. They only dance in their local villages. Make of that what you will. I will keep on coming back, as I find out more, whether it supports the disguise or other reasons. Looking at the video of Motley Morris, I find it difficult to believe that they are trying to take off black people. My imagination, does not stretch that far. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: greg stephens Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:08 AM I am a little concerned by Ruth Archer's stance on this issue, particularly as she is a booker for a big festival. She is saying that people should not black up because in the past blacking up was associated with imitating the minstrel troupes, and is thus essentially racist. She also quotes an item that says the use of bajoes, or bones, or tambourines also proves a link to the minstrel troupes. Now, this may or not be true. But she appears to be drawing the deduction that not only is blacking up unacceptable, but also the playing of bajoes, tambourines, and bones is unacceptable. I play in a band that regularly uses banjo and bones, and on occasion we've had a tambourine player sitting in.(As do many bands, Martin Brinsford in the Brasshoppers springs to mind). Is Ruth Archer saying that those instruments are unacceptable at Sidmouth, becaue they have been associated with minstrelsy in the past? And if not, why not? Because if blacking up is unacceptable on her grounds, then so are bajoes. And frankly, I find that idea absolutely plain barmy.AS well as grossly offensive to musicians who play the relevant instyruments, whether they are white, black or khaki. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Sandman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:08 AM before any group are booked in to a school,the school should research the group they are booking,this head teacher did not,she is clearly incompetent as well as ignorant,she should be reprimanded by the school governors. meanwhile racism which involves people being attacked physically is still occurring unchecked,talk about tilting at windmills. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:12 AM Malcolm, it's the collective elements: the black face, the "niggering", and the instruments which all make a strong case for border once being closely associated with minstrelsy. But it's very possible that the instruments you play, if histroical to the morris side you dance with and if they go back far enough, may once have been related to minstrelsy, too. It was hugely popular. But there is a big difference between putting on blackface and playing a banjo in terms of the potential offence caused in 2009. "Does this mean I'm a racist?" I have been at pains to say that I do not believe present-day border morris dancers to be racist simply because they black up. Villan, are your two border teams revival sides or traditional sides? How long have they been going? Where did their information about dancing "as their forefathers did" come from? People interested in the genesis of this "ancient tradition" might like to read the following article. John Kirkpatrick doesn't say much about the history of blacking up, but it does give an insight into how long border, as it is practiced in 2009, has been going... Border Morris - Roots and Revival |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:12 AM "But she appears to be drawing the deduction that not only is blacking up unacceptable, but also the playing of bajoes, tambourines, and bones is unacceptable." I didn't see her draw any such further conclusion. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:21 AM I'm reluctant to join in this discussion, and have felt no need so far because Ruth, Royston and others have argued so well for my own point of view, but I feel a need to add my voice to those who find comments like this "I do not feel that black people should be offended by people browning/blacking up" to be wilfully misguided. It is not up to us to decide if someone should be offended or not by our actions. It is up to decent people to seek to avoid causing offence - as a matter of common courtesy, (or good manners to use the traditional term). And given the current political situation dancers should be thinking even more carefully about this practice, and how it may play out to the wider world. In 'closed' situations where there is an opportunity carefully to explain all the historical precedents (innocent and less so), black make-up might just be justifiable (as it might have been in this case), but in the street and on websites etc. dancers would do well to bear in mind that Morris is colourful, noisy and newsworthy - so punches above its weight in terms of public relations. Their choices will colour people's views on the whole folk scene. I'm well aware that folk music tends to attract people of a more conservative disposition (note the small c), and there may indeed be people with right wing / racist views dancing morris. These will no doubt hang on to their practices for more than one reason, but others need to beware of a 'territorial knee-jerk' reaction to change. The time line, as I see it, seems to go like this: 1) Origins of morris - possible parody of black skin = dodgy. 2) Guising to avoid recognition - innocent, but open to misinterpretation = dodgy. 3) Assumption of minstrelsy fashions - parody of black skin = dodgy. 4) Re-invention and modern popularisation - largely innocent but open to misinterpretation = dodgy. Trying to drill down on the details misses the main picture, which is that hanging on to this 'tradition' when there are viable alternatives is not really tenable or sensible. I know dancers enjoy shocking people (I remember my, then, very small son being freaked out by being chased by a dancer with a horse's skull on his head - the man plainly enjoyed his terror), but there are limits. Rather than writing to a hard-pressed head teacher who made an innocent mistake, I would rather write to the powers that be in the Morris world. Forgive my ignorance but there seem to be a number of rival factions. Who are the people of influence in this field? Tom |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,HelenJ Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:21 AM This smacks of something which happened a few years ago. Mike Riley gave trad singing lessons to children in the north Manchester area. He was instructed not to sing The Boarshead Carol, it would offend Jews and others. He was also forbidden to teach songs about foxhunting (One assumes the foxes would be offended.) Where will this all end? |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:22 AM Greg: please see my last post on thius subject. I think the instruments are one element within a weight of evidence which point conclusively to border morris having had very close ties with minstrelsy. That's all. But just in case it's not clear, I'd like to state the following, absolutely and categorically: I do NOT believe that border morris dancers who black up are racist. I do NOT believe that border morris sides who black up should stop doing it. I just think they ought to know what the roots of the custom are and make an informed choice about it. I also hope they'd be brave enough to include this in their explanations if the public asks why blacking up is part of the tradition. I DO think that, before jumping all over this poor head teacher and giving her a piece of their mind, some people maybe ought to have made sure that the history they were citing as the root of their outrage and indignation was, in fact, true. I DO think that the proliferation of fakelore, especially as a means of covering up the more unpleasant aspects of our folk history, ought not to be encouraged. I do NOT place any restrictions or guidance on the booking of dance teams or bands at Sidmouth on any grounds other than quality. As it happens, Shropshire Bedlams are one of my favourite morris sides. I hope that makes my position very clear. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:29 AM Ruth >>Villan, are your two border teams revival sides or traditional sides? How long have they been going? Where did their information about dancing "as their forefathers did" come from? << Thats exactly what I am trying to find out, and as I have said, when I get more concrete evidence I will feed back on it. If my eveidence proves to be innacurate, I will be the first to put my hands up and stop supporting Border Morris and blacking up. Maybe you should do the same. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Borchester Echo Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:35 AM Yes, and don't you think that consistently leaving the "N" out of banjo is taking PCness just a tad too far? (Wonder who's actually read JKP's piece yet? Not many seem to have done after I linked to it a few days ago). |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Gervase Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:38 AM before any group are booked in to a school,the school should research the group they are booking,this head teacher did not,she is clearly incompetent as well as ignorant,she should be reprimanded by the school governors. I find it so refreshing that traditional music has such eloquent ambassadors. Diplomacy's loss is clearly music's gain in this instance. If only one thing comes out of this it will be that poor Hazel King will never want to have anything to do with morris dancing as long as she lives. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Borchester Echo Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:38 AM The Flag & Bone Gang of Knaresborough revived some of the dances my grandfather used to play for. They hold clacking bones in their hands and wear beekeepers' veils. Who's going to find something sinister in that? |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:42 AM I'll tellya what - I find them bloody sinister! |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:55 AM Strikes me that you find anything sinister Ruth! |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Banjiman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:00 AM I see the racists are making capital out of this. Stormfront |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:12 AM Maybe you haven't seen Flag and Bone dance, Villan. The effect is quite disturbing, and I assume that this is absolutely deliberate. Their bee-keeper's veils are shroud-like, which takes disguise to a whole new level. How unfortunate that, in what has been on the whole an interesting and informative discussion, you feel compelled to continually resort to personal digs. Maybe you'd be less defensive and aggressive if you could back up your arguments with evidence rather than emotion. When you can, I will be really interested to hear them. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:15 AM 200+ posts late maybe but can I ask a few questions. 1. If I was to offend someone on this thread would they still be alive tomorrow? 2. If I was to black up for a dance or play tonight woud it make any difference to anything whatsoever? 3. Remember the old term 'sticks and stones can break my bones (no -not that sort!)~ but names can never hurt me'? Guess what. If someone offends me I may get a bit shirty. I'm over it tomorrow. Stage make-up has no bearing on anyones thoughts, charecter or intentions. I know because I have worn it. The old term is true. You are all adults. People give and take offence at all sorts of stupid things. Get over it. DeG |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:22 AM I was making a general statement there Ruth. I haven't seen them and am in no position to make comment. Obviously you see something offensive there and that is up to you. Political correctness has gone stupid and its important to ensure that such PC reaction is well founded. We won't be able to fart in our own toilet soon. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Banjiman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM I did a google search on "blacking up", these are the sort of articles that I came across. Does the Morris/ Molly/ Folk world really want to be associated with these sort of activities, whatever the history of Border Morris? Do these articles represent the reality of what many people will perceive when seeing blacked up Morris/ Molly dancers? "In February Lewis Hamilton was racially abused by Spanish Formula One fans who dressed up in wigs with blacked-up faces and "Hamilton's family" written on their T-shirts. Then in November four Oxford university rugby students, including the son of Richard Spring MP, the vice-chairman of the Conservative party, were reprimanded for blacking up and wearing loincloths to an African party. One of the participants, Phil Boon, who was also embroiled in a separate controversy surrounding an event entitled "Bring a Fit Jew to Dinner" said "Blacking up for the Safari Bop was just going along with that theme. We dress up for a lot of parties. I have not had people telling me that either of the themes were offensive." Yet for some people blacking up is clearly offensive. In 2006 Diane Abbott MP put a motion before parliament calling for the Mummer's Day festival in Padstow to be banned. But local MP Dan Rogerson defended the practice saying "It is not something local people have objected to. The tradition of blacking up is a very old one. It is not something that comes from Padstow, but around the rest of England and I don't think we should be picking on Padstow." |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:34 AM "Obviously you see something offensive there and that is up to you." Flag and Bone is weird. It's meant to be. It's not offensive - not even to bee-keepers. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Borchester Echo Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:45 AM I don't think Ruth said Flag & Bone were offensive, exactly. The dance is from beekeeping country so it's an obvious and appropriate form of disguise. It's also Lyke Wake Dirge land so of course it's scary, That's the point. And it's also bloody difficult to do in kit on account of how hard it is to see where you're going. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:48 AM Paul So hello. What has your last post got to do with Motley Morris? Les |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:49 AM Ok I apologise Ruth. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Sandman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:54 AM this poor head teacher,end of quote. this incompetent, ignorant head teacher,who cant even spend 5 minutes researching different forms of morris,[and then booked a cotswold morris that doesnt black up side]who has denied children the opportunity to learn about English morris dancing,she needs to get her act together. If she doesnt like Morris sides that black up,then find outabout the morris sides and traditions first. this could all have been avoided with a little research. Diane Abbott,would be better employed trying to help these victims of racism. Racist attack on London gurudwara: report Ians March 18th, 2009 LONDON - A Sikh gurudwara in London was gutted in an alleged racist attack, a British newspaper reported Tuesday. Gurdwara Sikh Sangat in Bow, built in 1979 and which housed priceless religious books, was holding a women-only prayer session when the suspected arson took place Monday. Most of its roof collapsed but no one was injured, the Evening Standard reported. 'Somebody did this deliberately. A man came in and got to the temple's holiest area. He was interrupted by one of the women and managed to get away. As he ran out, the place went up in flames. Everyone panicked. The women tried to put out the fire with buckets of water but it was too fierce,' said Gurpal Singh, an IT professional and a regular at the gurudwara. Witnesses described the suspected arsonist as being black or mixed-race. The London Fire Brigade confirmed that 75 percent of the building and the roof had been damaged by the fire. More than 50 fire fighters battled the fire for almost eight hours before putting out the fire completely. Kamaljeet Kaur said her aunt was in the temple when the alleged arsonist struck. She said: 'All the women thought he was a robber. It was only when they got upstairs that they discovered the fire raging. It is lucky one of them was not badly hurt.' Singh said the women managed to save just one of the temple's eight holy books before the flames took hold. 'I cannot describe how important those holy books were to the Sikh community,' he added. One worshipper said that in the past few weeks he had noticed racist graffiti on one of the gurudwara's outer walls, the newspaper said. A police spokesman said: 'Police are treating this incident as suspicious.' |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Gervase Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:01 AM 'Political correctness' is a handy stick to wield. But consider replacing the phrase with something like 'consideration' and it sounds quite different. Just as I would hope that, even absent-mindedly, most here wouldn't wander into a synagogue eating a ham roll, so one should think about the consequences of any action. The 'live with it' and 'I don't care' attitude shown by many of the posters here is actually quite depressing - it's sticking two fingers up to anyone else and saying 'I'm all right Jack, so sod you.' The other depressing aspect is the default defence of any entrenched position - if someone suggests otherwise, they WRONG dammit. As has, I hope, been demonstrated, the routes of what was eventually invented as border morris are inextricably linked with the minstrel phenomenon, and that is something that should be acknowledged. Sticking fingers in ears and saying 'na-na-na-nah-na' won't uninvent those facts. It's akin to the difference between science and faith - scientists will look at evidence and change their position, whereas those with a faith-based stance cling on regardless. Just be thankful that Hazel King didn't raise exactly those points when she decided not to have Motley Morris at the Chantry School. A far larger can of worms would have been opened. As it is we can have a discussion here about it without revealing to the wider world our blinkers and unthinking, stubborn selfishness. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:02 AM >>so of course it's scary<< So a bit like scary pantomimes which kids and grown ups seem to love. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Banjiman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:02 AM Villan....... I'm pointing out what is the probable perception of the majority (a lot of people google) of the population around "blacking up". This is completely relevant to this debate. Don't you think that blacking up is blacking up to most of the population? Do you think people stop and think "it's (or it might be) part of the tradition and therefore OK"? The majority of people will just see white guys made up as black guys ...... with all the connotations that has. As one of the parents from Chantry school said: "To black up in this day and age is taking things too far. I know it was a diversity day and it was supposed to help bind cultures together but having a bunch of white guys with black faces turn up at a primary school and prance about is just plain wrong and would have caused confusion among the kids." This whole event is a PR disaster for the Morris/ Folk world. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Gervase Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:05 AM this incompetent, ignorant head teacher,who cant even spend 5 minutes researching different forms of morris,[and then booked a cotswold morris that doesnt black up side]who has denied children the opportunity to learn about English morris dancing,she needs to get her act together. I rest my fucking case. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:13 AM Just wanted to re-post these excellent points made by Ruth A earlier: "I DO think that, before jumping all over this poor head teacher and giving her a piece of their mind, some people maybe ought to have made sure that the history they were citing as the root of their outrage and indignation was, in fact, true. I DO think that the proliferation of fakelore, especially as a means of covering up the more unpleasant aspects of our folk history, ought not to be encouraged." * Until the folk community can through thorough research and examination of evidence, ascertain the truth about their own folk traditions, no-one else should be expected to take their wish to do what they do just because that's the way they do it, seriously. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:15 AM >>This whole event is a PR disaster for the Morris/ Folk world.<< All becuase the stupid person who booked them, didn't take time to check them out, before they booked them and ensure they were suatble for what they wanted. Had they have done that, they would have been able to say thank you, but no thank you in a nice way. I would hate to think of you as an organiser booking somebody, without checking them out first and making sure they are suitable for your venue. I check out everybody I book first. its not difficult with myspace/ youtube, live shows etc. Instead they book them, have a meeting, decide that it could cause offence, its gets into the newspapers and then gets blown out of all proportion. How does that make Motley Morris look and feel. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Banjiman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:21 AM Les, "All becuase the stupid person who booked them, didn't take time to check them out, before they booked them and ensure they were suatble for what they wanted" Is one way of looking at it and I wouldn't argue that the headteacher should have thought it through. However, for me (as you can probably gather) it raises bigger questions of the acceptability of "blacking up" in this day and age. The mixed evidence around the history of the "tradition" makes it an even harder job to justify the practice. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:21 AM "All becuase the stupid person who booked them, didn't take time to check them out, before they booked them and ensure they were suatble for what they wanted." Perhaps the head teacher was operating under the clearly naive and un-researched assumption, that traditional English culture would naturally be entirely suitable for young black children to partake in? |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:24 AM DeG - People give and take offence at all sorts of stupid things. Get over it. I dunno. It seems to me that there's quite a lot of interest in Morris these days, and the general displacement of Cotswold-and-whites by Border-and-tatters over the last couple of decades has helped keep it alive. And fair enough - traditions always change. But some Border enthusiasts are talking as if blackface and tatters is an ancient and immemorial inheritance which must be preserved unchanged forever, which (in my opinion) it ain't. (And besides, that's not how tradition works - traditions develop and borrow and adapt and change, it's what they do.) it also seems to me that there are a lot of misconceptions about English traditional culture & Morris in particular, also going back to this idea of culture as a heritage, to be preserved unchanged. My grandfathers were a South London railway worker and a Welsh miner; I know that one of them was Church of Wales and the other Plymouth Brethren, but apart from that I've got no idea what kind of songs they sang (if they sang) or what kind of music they danced to (if they danced). I've got ancestors in Sussex and Shropshire who probably danced out - or knew someone who did - but there's absolutely zero continuity between them and me: that's why it's called a Revival. What this means - and I'm sure people are wondering - is that English traditional culture is available to us now because we're in England, not because we're English - and specifically not because we're the descendants of all those sailors and milkmaids. It's available to us (if we want it) and I would like it to be available to everyone else in the country (if they want it), regardless of whether they trace their ancestors to Clun or Kiev or Calcutta. Some people take the opposite view; some people - including some folk enthusiasts - take the view that it is the culture of the true-born English(wo)man, and if anyone with a naturally darker skin doesn't like it they can run along and play with their steel drums (which is their culture, of course). I'm not accusing anyone here of thinking like that; what I'm saying is that there are people who think like that, and the less ammunition we give them, the better. Blacking-up, in imitation of Black people, is a long-established custom in this country - and frankly, why wouldn't it be? Before 1948, the Black population of Britain was about 25,000 in total - something like a twentieth of 1%. Times change, and what would have been unlikely to cause offence in one time becomes grossly offensive in another. I would ask anyone who is attached to blackface dancing to ask themselves whether they can be sure that the practice isn't connected with 'racial' blacking-up. Lots of people wouldn't be offended by it even if it was explicitly racial; lots of people weren't offended by the Black and White Minstrels. But I think we should take seriously those people who are offended. Short version: why cut yourself off from part of your potential audience for the sake of maintaining a tradition unchanged? Traditions change all the time - it's what they do. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 11:06 AM Paul As I said previously. I am waiting for correspondance to be returned to me, to substantiate the Border Morris stance. That does not let the person who booked them off the hook. >>Perhaps the head teacher was operating under the clearly naive and un-researched assumption<< Well that doesn't say much about the head teacher then. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Morris-ey Date: 01 Jul 09 - 11:20 AM My last, last word: Blacking-up in border is "traditional" and has been since Shropshire Bedlams spawned endless crap border sides; taking offence on behalf of others is a middle class, white trait and patronising in the extreme; get over yourselves. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 01 Jul 09 - 11:23 AM Shorter Morris-ey: "NA NA NA NOT LISTENING!" |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Banjiman Date: 01 Jul 09 - 11:23 AM Les, "That does not let the person who booked them off the hook." As I said, they should have thought it through. However it also doesn't let those who "black up" off the hook of thinking through the potential impact and perception of their make up either. Does your view on this really hang on the historical context? Am I completely bonkers to worry about how "blacking up" is perceived by the wider community and the potential discomfort it may be bring to some of our neighbours? Irrespective of historical context. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 11:38 AM I only concern myself, if somebody is clearly being racist. That has to be proven about Motley Morris. Until then I hold my stance. They (Motley Morris) were obviously booked by the school. Their (Motley Morris) website makes it very obvious that they black up, by the picture and the first sentence in the first paragraph. http://www.motley-morris.co.uk/ What more do they need to do. The school cocked up and Morris teams may well suffer for their action. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 01 Jul 09 - 11:43 AM Andy Murray is ahead 2 sets to NIL. Doesn't seem to be concerning him. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Borchester Echo Date: 01 Jul 09 - 11:50 AM It's a bit late but that's just reminded me of Buster Mottram, another crap Brit tennis player who brought even more fascism to SW London. |
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