Is folk music folk music?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 01:45 PM

JC your main gripe so far as the casual observer can tell, is that there's no such thing as folk police, i.e. those who believe folk is a particular ethno-cultural artefact and Absolutely Nothing Else and will apprehend anyone who disagrees with that conclusion.

The folk police force believe its job is to save folk music from some threat or other, nail it down with definitions, establish a pantheon of approved artists and forms and act outraged or wounded if anyone suggests otherwise. Police force members closely align themselves with this artefact and take any debate about it as a personal attack on themselves, using a variety of strategies that puts themselves centre stage.

I also like leeneia's post but if s/he were to post such sentiments too often s/he'd have her collar felt.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 10:19 AM

I like Leeneia's post above. Especially the last sentence.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 10:05 AM

There isn't actually such a thing as folk music because there isn't actually such a thing as the folk.

'The folk' can be defined as a homogeneous group of people who never accomplish much and don't deserve much. Its function is to work, subsist and fight for worthier people who possess wealth, genius or dignity. Its music is bland and predictable.

There is no folk. Humans are variable, and genius, wealth and dignity pop up everywhere.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 07:50 AM

"You got an answer."
When or where did I say what you accused me of saying and where did you reply? You really do need to clean up your act.
So'P
"which supposedly spoke for Black South Africans suffering under Apartheid."
Incidentally. where did you ever hear MacColl and Seeger claim to be speaking for black South Africans or is this one of Glueman's 'let's make something up to score points' statements.
I assume you disapprove of Rossleson, Dick Gaughan, Christie Moore or early Dylan singing and making songs which comment on political oppression - or is this another display of 'corpse wrestling'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 07:23 AM

You got an answer. It wasn't the one you wanted so you're saying you never got one. An old trick and one I'm not falling sweetie.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 07:19 AM

I have listened to MacColl for continuously from the time somebody gave me 'Chorus From The Gallows' for my 21st birthday. In Liverpool, when he and Peggy were booked, you had to get your tickets at least a fortnight in advance otherwise you didn't get in. Singers club nights when they residented, were nearly always full houses. MacColl continued to pack 'em in right up to the point when his health forced him to stop singing.
On the other hand, wouldn't have walked down the road to King George's Park to listen to Peter Bellamy's Larry The Lamb imitations - so I suppose it's all a matter of taste really.
I suppose Glueman's silence is the nearest thing I'll get to an apology or a retraction of his crap.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:29 AM

Oi! Wos wrong with ugly all of a sudden?

My thesis is simple befitting a simple fellow. Somebody knicked folk music, swaddled it in silly clothes and a comedy voice, gave it a fake passport and passed the changeling off as their own. I wanna know how and why and would like the real baby back.

Signed,

The Folk

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:19 AM

So, when a thread reaches 175 posts, is it irony? Or is it just boring? (Can I put this thread in the BS section now?)

Depends on how much you enjoy watching ugly people wrestling in the mud.


Whether it's about sartorial folk elegance or the boringness of Peggy Seeger, is it any more folk-irrelevant bullshit than many other threads on Mudcat?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 05:24 AM

I saw MacColl once and he didn't sing one traditional song rather used the opportunity to bore a bewildered audience with his self-written political songs which supposedly spoke for Black South Africans suffering under Apartheid. Embarrassingly atrocious. The only song I remember Peggy Seeger doing that night was a dreary singalong ditty about the radioactivity of tobacco. I came away numb and depressed feeling as if I'd witnessed the death of folk music; fortunately Peter Bellamy was on hand later in the month to bring it back to life again... Happy days, eh?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 05:08 AM

Still not biting JC.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 04:27 AM

"I still don't believe in any of them. Do you? A simple yes or no will do JC. "
No - when did I say I did? Your suggesting that I did is typical of the distortions and dishonesty that go on in these discussions, as is your phrasing of this question (rather like "Do you still beat your wife/partner - a simple yes or no will do").
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 03:34 AM

See, all the best folk music seems to have come from close to (or even to have straddled) the border of wherever its from (talking national or emotional borders here). If the national isn't porous it'll quickly be dead. If the emotional isn't porous it will quickly be dull and relentless.

Thought for the day. Typing while dumping.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 03:32 AM

Can't see why threads with 'Folk Music' in the title attract such ire and contempt. Some people want to discuss the big picture of a phenomenon they enjoy but recognise has accumulated a lot of preconceptions and plain bull around it and some don't.

If the don'ts stay out of the thread Folk Music threads are usually knockabout, good natured and contain some intelligent posts (not necessarily mine). Having a background thread on the boil to remind us what the hell this thing is we're listening to seems healthy.
Some folk are just hypertensive and waiting to be offended. If we bring the board down to a level where no-one gets miffed it would be dull indeed.

Before I found Mudcat I believed I was the only person who loved folk music while recognising its contradictions and absurdities but I find there are a considerable number and for that I'm grateful.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 07:46 PM

So, when a thread reaches 175 posts, is it irony?
Or is it just boring?

-Joe-

175


(Can I put this thread in the BS section now?)

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 04:32 PM

Folknacious's last post trumped mine. Apologies, shouldn't have bitten.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 04:30 PM

"Ethnic purity, folk purity, ethnic folk, folk schmoke, diddly-dee, diddly-di."

I still don't believe in any of them. Do you? A simple yes or no will do JC.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Folknacious
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 04:07 PM

at the age of 38 I'm hardly an 'old git'

Old gittedness is in the mind, not the birth certificate.

Now, you bickering lot, bog off outside and finish it off in the car park and let us debaters of the finer points of philosophy get back to important matters. Like who is the folkiest trouser wearer of them all? Name and shame!

This thread is yet another variation on the theme of What IS Folk Music!

Infamy! 'Snot! Prove it! You just don't understand! Are we there yet?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:58 PM

Provide me with the evidence of your accusations - doesn't get more simple than that.
I joined this thread to comment on your bout of anti-MacColl necrophobia; wasn't being grumpy (or Sneezy, or Happy...), just attempting to ansewer the question which you appear to have comandeered and are now attempting to censor.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:35 PM

Um... everyone's got one? they all smoke? None begins with an N


Breasts !!!!! or breste? oh well suit yerself

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:14 PM

Show me a question Jim. So far I made a statement that had nothing to do with you and you claimed I said you'd said it. That's the stuff of bewilderment if not obsession.

This thread was bumping along so nicely as well. It really doesn't HAVE to go along grumpy lines, though it will if you insist.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:55 PM

The idea that folk music is not a genre is promoted by some of those who write their own songs. They don't get it that some songs go through a folk process by which they are smoothed out as water flowing over a rock in a stream. The songs are added to, subtracted from and changed by cultural influences over time.

The bottom line is that many of those who write their own stuff are looking for commercial success and folk music doesn't fit into that agenda. A lot of young people who want to be "hip" or "with it" do a number here.

Folk music is part of a national heritage. It will always be around despite the commercial music business and rarely because of it.

Some writers do "folk-type" songs that have the flavor of trad songs. They can be wonderful. Some trad folk songs can be awful if they're bowdlerized enough. But the
best stand the test.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:42 PM

Still avoiding my questions
Provide me with the evidence of your accusations.
"but what is the difference between folk roots as defined through nation states and nationalism?"
"Ethnic Purity"
Is it my imagination or taken over the role of 'thread policeman' now?
"Well I hate to serious in a single playful thread in a sea of grumpiness"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:15 PM

"sometime fun thread has degenerated into!"
fun? This thread is yet another variation on the theme of What IS Folk Music!

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:11 PM

"What tedious bickering this sometime fun thread has degenerated into!"

How dare you accuse me of "bickering"?

I demand you provide evidential proofage of such execrable behaviour! And whatsmore Mrs big nose, I say "poo poo to you".

And let that Sir, be a lesson to you!

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:03 PM

What tedious bickering this sometime fun thread has degenerated into!

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:03 PM

"at the age of 38 I'm hardly an 'old git'"

Yes, not quite Dearie, we're both still apprentices.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 12:55 PM

"I like all the grumpy old gits on here!"

hate to disappoint you, dearie, (no I don't) but at the age of 38 I'm hardly an 'old git'

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 12:52 PM

I like all the grumpy old gits on here!
It took a while at first though.

And it does help not having any strong feelings about all this stuff of course. So I get to watch and smile a bit.
Plus knowing that you're likely to outlive them all by several decades makes one a tad indulgent. The future as always, belongs to the young. So why not let 'em grump while they can?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 12:40 PM

Carroll I personally find you to be an EXTREMELY unpleasant human being, always have done, always will do

"As for folk police - don't make folk laws" exactly!

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 09:54 AM

It's a question. Those who are adamant that nation states ('England') have an indigenous and exclusive music that defines its 'folk roots' should see their observation is a nationalistic one. I think it's complete rubbish BTW. I don't believe there is an 'English' music, certainly not a folk one.
I'd like to know how folk 'purity' differs from ideas of ethnicity in this regard. There are differences but the two are uncomfortably close.
As for folk police - don't make folk laws and the accusation dies.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 09:20 AM

Still avoiding my questions
Provide me with the evidence of your accusations.
"but what is the difference between folk roots as defined through nation states and nationalism?"
"Ethnic Purity"
Is it my imagination or taken over the role of 'thread policeman' now?
"Well I hate to serious in a single playful thread in a sea of grumpiness"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 09:12 AM

Thing is Jim you call people cowards, spineless and arseholes but bristle at anyone questioning your unimpeacable credentials. I find you a deeply humourless type and very brittle but am happy to listen to your more measured contributions on the rare occasions they get an airing.
What we're talking about is an internet board of opinions. Other users will weigh them by generosity, accuracy, pithiness and whatever self-evident truths emerge. There is no other measure. BTW I checked in case my hackless rose without reason - you started it, as usual.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 08:58 AM

"but what is the difference between folk roots as defined through nation states and nationalism?"
Wha....... did I really say that, if so, where?
As I said - spineless - and fairly consistent.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 08:14 AM

Well I hate to serious in a single playful thread in a sea of grumpiness, but what is the difference between folk roots as defined through nation states and nationalism?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 07:59 AM

Glueman,
You have a particularly dishonest and cowardly way of making unsubstantaited statements then, when challenged, refusing to back them up.
Shame really, as, unlike our fick friend, whose aim in life seems seems to be to prove to the world how unpleasant he can be, you appear to have thought through some of your ideas.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 06:19 AM

Chimneys,Chickens and France
What have they all got in common?

Um... everyone's got one? they all smoke? None begins with an N?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 05:39 AM

Or even Burlington. Irritable vowel syndrome - ae ee ai ou ue.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 05:37 AM

Ethnic purity, folk purity, ethnic folk, folk schmoke, diddly-dee, diddly-di.
Scurrying, I never do. Think more Berlington Bertie than Peter Lorre.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 03:21 AM

"Ethnic Purity",
Sorry Glueman - missed the significance of this one first time round (wonderfully busy week listening to music and song).
I expect you'll scurry off to the local for some Dutch courage rather than answer this but Where have I EVER expressed an opinion on the ethnicity of folk music - pure or otherwise? It's about as far away from my opinions as you can get.
I expect that this is once again another example of your crass sloganising, so I won't hold my breath for an answer as I have long realised that you don't do answers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:35 AM

Chimneys,Chickens and France
What have they all got in common?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:14 PM

If you can't take it don't give it out as Ewan MacColl sang in 'If You Can't Take It (don't give it out)'

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:12 PM

"Ah come on lads, fight fair - one and a quarter against one........"

He really DOES think 'e's amusing dun 'e...gawd...!*LOL*

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:07 PM

Suggesting that Jim Carroll is concerned with "Ethnic Purity" is like some idiot (who has encountered the word in a book, but hasn't really grasped its meaning) accusing the Pope of being a "Satanist".

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:04 PM

"I'm not sure if my fireplace counts as a designated folk context yet though. "

Hey, I'd love to have a 'folk fireplace' in my re-imagined village cottage where we old gits can sit and....hang on, what bloody thread am I on?

OK. Right, I'm there now. When I stripped off the old wallpaper on the chimney breast of the old Station Master's house where we live there were signatures from, you guessed it - old station masters - going back to 1863. The old range has gone but I've put in a woodburner and it's still the heart of the house and we do sit around and sing folk-style-and-folk-inspired songs (when we're not watching Corrie), so I claim this as a folk fireplace and am going to apply for an Arts Council grant to hold performances there.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:39 PM

"the author of this quote..speaking of clichés "
Ah come on lads, fight fair - one and a quarter against one........
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:19 PM

Nice frock but on second viewing that monopede bird looks a bit high maintenance.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: glueman
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:16 PM

Only if I can add going up the pub as an admission of intellectual legerdemain, Jim.

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:15 PM

"my 'folkie' list of mindless Clichés"

the author of this quote..speaking of clichés

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Folknacious
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 01:33 PM

Casn?

Is that the Bristolese "Casn"? As in Thees got'n wur thee casn't back'un asn't?

Adge Cutler! Now thees talkin' folk music, isn't?

Subject: RE: Is folk music folk music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 12:41 PM

"Ethnic Purity Division"
Casn you add this to my 'folkie' list of mindless Clichés
Jim Carroll