Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: Islam and politics

Lox 07 Jul 09 - 05:14 AM
Richard Bridge 07 Jul 09 - 05:52 AM
The Villan 07 Jul 09 - 06:34 AM
Emma B 07 Jul 09 - 07:24 AM
Lox 07 Jul 09 - 07:53 AM
freda underhill 07 Jul 09 - 08:39 AM
Emma B 07 Jul 09 - 08:42 AM
freda underhill 07 Jul 09 - 08:46 AM
freda underhill 07 Jul 09 - 08:56 AM
Emma B 07 Jul 09 - 10:15 AM
Emma B 07 Jul 09 - 11:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 09 - 11:22 AM
Lox 07 Jul 09 - 01:18 PM
Emma B 07 Jul 09 - 03:04 PM
The Villan 07 Jul 09 - 03:17 PM
Art Thieme 07 Jul 09 - 08:58 PM
Lepus Rex 07 Jul 09 - 10:48 PM
GUEST,lox 08 Jul 09 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,lox 08 Jul 09 - 03:53 PM
Emma B 08 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM
Richard Bridge 08 Jul 09 - 06:46 PM
Emma B 08 Jul 09 - 07:10 PM
Richard Bridge 08 Jul 09 - 09:36 PM
Emma B 08 Jul 09 - 09:40 PM
Paul Burke 09 Jul 09 - 02:12 AM
GUEST,Stringsinger 09 Jul 09 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,lox 09 Jul 09 - 05:17 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Jul 09 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,lox 09 Jul 09 - 08:23 AM
Emma B 09 Jul 09 - 09:27 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:





Subject: BS: Islam and politics
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:14 AM

I thought this merited a new thread.

So sad ...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:52 AM

I'm not clear that this is about Islam. I think it is about the Chinese colonialist occupations of this province and of Tibet.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: The Villan
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 06:34 AM

Q&A: China and the Uighurs

This I think helps to understand a little about what is actually going on. Again I am sure you will decide what you think is correct based on which side of the fence you sit. I only post it to provide some sort of background and nothing else.

I personally find it very sad, but does one blame the Chinese authority or the two warring factions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 07:24 AM

From time to time the publication here of on-line 'rumours', aimed solely at increasing religious/ethnic intolerance or even hatred, have been justifiably criticised.

It wouod appear that such rumours, accusing Uighur workers of raping two Han women, prompted a deadly brawl on June 26 at a toy factory in Guangdong's Shaoguan city, between Chinese workers and other locals and Uighur workers

On Sunday, more than 300 ethnic Uyghurs - mostly Sunni Muslims - staged a protest in Urumqi's People's Square to demand an investigation into the June 26 incident

The Earth Times reports that -

"Rumours that police had failed to arrest those who attacked the Uighurs in Guangdong were reportedly one of the major reasons for the violent protests that began Sunday in Urumqi, the capital of China's far western region of Xinjiang"

And it appears that was indeed violence from both sides

According to the state-run Xinhua News Agency. -

"Groups of rioters broke down guardrails on roads, torched automobiles and beat Han pedestrians. The mob attacked buses and set fire to a hotel near the office building of the Xinjiang Regional Foreign Trade Commission"

Whether the riots were instigated by pro-independence activists operating from other countries or not as claimed, the fact remains that violent conflicts are easily stirred up by the mutual distrust between the Han people and ethnic minorities.
Internet rumors were also involved and the authorities later arrested a Han worker for uploading the rape rumor to stir up trouble.

The communist government considers all ethnic groups to be Chinese, however the idea that all people in China belong to the "great family of Chinese" is not the invention of the communists. This attitude began with the founding fathers of modern China

In the era of chairman Mao Zedong the concept of a 'common class', which gave equality to all people in the same class regardless of their ethnicity, surpassed the idea of ethnic identity and forestalled ethnic conflict although made the former elites of ethnic minorities diehard enemies of the Chinese Communist Party

The actions of the, mainly Han, Red guards during the Cultural Revolution severely damaged this situation and following the dreadful excesses, apparently as some form of compensation, the Chinese government began to award some privileges and preferences to ethnic minorities.

For example, the tough one-child policy applies only to Han couples. Accordingly, the birth rate and population proportion of the Han are decreasing, compared to other ethnic groups.
Meanwhile, privileges have been granted to ethnic minorities for employment and education opportunities.
To boost economic growth, the government in recent years has poured much money into ethnic minority areas.

Dr Jian Junbo is assistant professor of the Institute of International Studies at Fudan University, Shanghai, China.
His summary of this situation is

"Even as ethnic groups, such as the Uyghurs, complain they are being exploited or discriminated by the Han, many Han accuse the government of doing the same. In the end, as China's economy advances, political and economic equality between Han and non-Han is being undermined.

The wealth gap is expanding between the Han, who in general live in rich areas, and those ethnic minorities who live in relatively poorer areas. The economic inequality between different regions is also a case between Han and non-Hans. Although this imbalance of economic development is due to many factors, it's easy for minorities to feel exploited by the Han."

He also gives a warning -

" The shared identity of the Chinese as socialist labor is gradually falling to pieces.
The resulting riots in Urumqi may be just the start of something much, much bigger. "


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 07:53 AM

I have read about this region of China before and about how it compares to the situation in Tibet.

To clarify, Urumqi is nowhere near Tibet. Xinjiang province and Tibet do share a border, but the geographical distance between Lhasa and Urumqi is nearly 2000km.

Uighurs share a very similar clture to their neigbours in Kyrgyzstan, Tajikstan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Khazakstan and like them are mainly Moslems.

The Chinese government, much as they have done in Tibet, have been trying to "update" the culture of that part of the world and have managed to keep a very tight lid on any information escaping from that area.

I hink we can expect to hear in coming weeks that this uprising has been brutally squashed.

The Government of China doesn't approve of loyalty to either the Dalai llama or to Mohammed. As I understand it, Religion is the obstacle to the smooth running of the modern day cultural revolution.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:39 AM

Once upon a time, Xinjiang province in China was a country known as East Turkestan. Prior to the 20th century, it was an area filled with enclaves of groups of people of Turkic ethnicities such as Uyghurs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, Kazakhs and Tajiks.

Last century, rule passed back and forward between the Chinese and the Uyghurs. It was variously known as the Turkish Islamic Republic of East Turkestan, the Uyghur Autonomous Region of People's Republic of China, and the Second East Turkistan Republic. The People's Liberation Army moved in in 1949 and named it Xinjiang province.

When the countries of "West Turkestan" (Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan) left the Soviet Union in 1989, the many of the predominantly Turkic population of Xinjiang started hoping to reclaim East Turkestan from China.

As in Tibet, school instruction is in Chinese and very few pieces of literature are published in Uyghur or other Turkic languages. The Chinese government gives economic incentives for Han Chinese to move to Xinjiang. In 1949, 95% of Xinjiang was Uyghur, by 2003, this percentage dropped to 45%.

Many Uyghurs face religious persecution and discrimination at the hands of the Chinese authorities. The Chinese state controls the management of all mosques, and children under the age of 18 are not allowed to attend church or mosque. The only nation supportive of the plight of Uyghurs is India.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:42 AM

"The Chinese government, much as they have done in Tibet, have been trying to "update" the culture of that part of the world"

American Tibetologist A. Tom Grunfeld pointed out that, although some people claimed before 1959, ordinary Tibetan people could enjoy milk tea as they wished and a great deal of meat and vegetables, a survey conducted in eastern Tibet in 1940 showed that 38 percent of Tibetan families never had tea to drink, 51 percent could not afford butter, and 75 percent sometimes had to eat weeds boiled with ox bones and oat or bean flour. "There is no evidence to support the picture of Tibet as a Utopian Shangrila."

Indeed Tibet was described by many as being in a total state of 'serfdom' and, although many academics have questioned the applicability of the concept to Tibet (a recent example being Heidi Fjeld who in 2003 argued that feudalism and the use of the term 'serf' was misleading in relation to the social system of Tibet) at the least there existed "a caste-like social hierarchy"

The Code stipulated that people were divided into three classes according to their family background and social positions, each class was further divided into three ranks.
The upper class consisted of a small number of aristocrats from big families, high-rank Living Buddhas and senior officials; the middle class was composed of lower-ranking ecclesiastical and secular officials, military officers, and the agents of the three major kinds of estate-holders.
Serfs and slaves constituted the lower class, accounting for 95 percent of Tibet's total population

Wiki gives an outline of this pre communist caste system

"Human lease peasants (mi-bo) did not have heritable rights to land.

They were still obligated to their 'owning' estate under their status as mi-ser. In contrast with the taxpayer families and householders, they had the freedom to go wherever they wanted and could engage in trade or crafts

The relative freedom of the mi-bo status was usually purchased by an annual fee to the estate to which the mi-bo belonged. The fee could be raised if the mi-bo prospered, and the lord could still exact special corvée labor, eg for a special event.

The status could be revoked at the will of the estate owner. The offspring of the mi-bo did not automatically inherit the status of 'mi-bo', they did inherit the status of 'mi-ser', and could be indentured to service in their earlier teens, or would have to pay their own mi-bo fee

The ragyabpa or untouchable caste were the lowest level, and they performed the 'unclean' work.
This included fishermen, butchers, executioners, corpse disposers, blacksmiths and goldsmiths. Ragyabpa were also divided into three divisions: for instance a goldsmith was in the highest untouchable class, and was not regarded as being as defiled as an executioner, who was in the lowest.

They were regarded as both polluted and polluting, membership of the caste was hereditary, and escape from the untouchable status was not possible"

Social classes of Tibet

Add to this the brutal system of disfiguring and capital punishment and private jails described by David MacDonald in his book "The Land of the Lama" (1929) and observed by other foreign visitors in the early C20th and the 'updating' of the 'culture' doesn't seem to be inhumane


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:46 AM

The BBC article refers to the Muslim minority, but they have only become a minority since the Chinese took over their country.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:56 AM

Being colonised (updated) by another race and culture is usually presented as an improvement by the invaders. So hard to understand why people keep protesting :-D


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:15 AM

A note on names:

Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region is the name given to Eastern Turkistan by the Chinese government, and is the cause of much resentment
Xinjiang is Chinese for "New Dominion," or "New Frontier," a legacy of their former Manchu rulers, who invaded Eastern Turkistan in 1759 and incorporated it into China.
The reference, understandably, does not go down well with Uighur nationalists.

The Uighurs are not the only Muslims in China; the Hui Muslims are also a recognized minority of several millions, and minorities of Tajiks, Kyrgyz, and Kazakhs are to be found in Xinjiang.
Two percent of China's population is Muslim; a deceptively small statistic until one realizes the reference is to a country with a population of 1.2 billion, leading to a total of 24 million Muslims in the C21st

Ethnically, the Uighurs are a Turkic people, their language being part of the larger Altaic family.
Since their adoption of Islam in the 10th century, during the reign of the Karakhanid kings, the Uighurs used Arabic script until the Chinese forced them to adopt a new Latin-based alphabet.

In 1983 the Uighurs were allowed, in one of the Chinese government's concessions to their "national" minorities, to return to their Arabic script.

Violent opposition to Chinese rule in East Turkistan is sporadic; occasional bombings or shootings take place

The United States has accused China of using terrorism concerns as an excuse to suppress political dissent in Xinjiang.
Certainly since September 11, China has beefed up military and police units in the region; detained thousands of suspected militants; and restricted religious rights **, which are, in fact, protected under China's constitution

Nevertheless, the United States listed the ETIM (East Turkestan Islamic Movement) as a terrorist organization on August 27 2002; of the two dozen Uyghurs that were held in extrajudicial detention at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp most faced allegations that they were tied to the East Turkistan Islamic Movement, Al-Qaeda, or the Taliban.

It is also designated as a terrorist organization by the governments of the PRC, Kazakhstan, Pakistan as well as the United Nations

ETIM leader Hahsan Mahsum was killed in raids on camps linked to al-Qaeda in 2003 but while experts agree hundreds of Uighurs left China to join al-Qaeda and its Taliban hosts in Afghanistan, some China specialists doubt the ETIM currently has significant ties to bin Laden's network

Although the ETIM seeks to establish an independent Islamic regime, the majority of Uighurs, according to the U.S. State Department, do not support the movement to establish an independent East Turkestan.


** Following a month in 2008 that saw the worst violence for a decade with a string of fatal attacks including an assault on police in Kashgar that left 16 officers dead and 16 wounded and 11 people killed in suicide bombings -

A Zhaosu county website notice said officials should "try to reduce Ramadan's influence on society as much as possible".

It told them to "dissuade people from attending organised and planned worship in large groups in order to prevent mass incidents; prevent, guide and stop situations like closing restaurants during Ramadan, students attending religious activities, women going into mosques with veils and shops stopping selling wines and cigarettes".

Prayer in public areas outside the mosque were forbidden and restrictions on worshipping at mosques outside place of residence were imposed as well as a rule that that government workers and nonreligious people may not be "forced" to attend services at the mosque and in addition government workers were not allowed to wear Islamic dress

However reports of mosques being closed down are not substantiated
in fact, one report in the American press critical of these rules reported
"As dozens of worshipers streamed into the mosque for prayer on a recent evening, one Uighur man pointed to the sign and shook his head. "We didn't write that," he said in broken Chinese. "They wrote that."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:13 AM

"The Chinese government gives economic incentives for Han Chinese to move to Xinjiang. In 1949, 95% of Xinjiang was Uyghur, by 2003, this percentage dropped to 45%."

Xinjiang's wealth hinges on its vast mineral and oil deposits.
In the early 1990s, Beijing decided to spur Xinjiang's growth by giving it special economic zones, subsidizing local cotton farmers, and overhauling its tax system.
In August 1991, the Xinjiang government launched the Tarim Basin Project (World Bank) to increase agricultural output.
During this period, Beijing invested in the region's infrastructure, building massive projects like the Tarim Desert Highway and a rail link to western Xinjiang

Beijing continued to develop Xinjiang in campaigns called "Open up the West" and "Go West."
Experts like Dru C. Gladney say these programs have made the region relatively prosperous. "If you look at the general per capita income of Xinjiang as a region," he says, "it's higher than all of China's except for the southeast coast

The growing job opportunities in Xinjiang have lured a steady stream of migrant workers to the region, many of whom are ethnically Han

The Chinese government does not count the number of workers that travel to Xinjiang, but experts say the local Han population has risen from approximately 5 percent in the 1940s to approximately 40 percent today.

These migrants work in a variety of industries, both low tech and high tech, and have transformed Xinjiang's landscape.
In June 2008, the BBC produced a photo report called Life in Urumqi, which said Xinjiang's capital had recently witnessed "the arrival of shopping centres, tower blocks, department stores and highways."

The Congressional-Executive Commission on China, appointed by the US president, claimed in 2007 that
' the Chinese government "provides incentives for migration to the region from elsewhere in China, in the name of recruiting talent and promoting stability" '


Xinjiang is home to thirteen major ethnic groups.
The largest of these groups is the Uighurs, who comprise 45 percent of Xinjiang's population, according to a 2003 census
As these Han migrants moved into Xinjiang, many Uighurs resented the strain they placed on limited resources like land and water

Ethnic tension is fanned by economic disparity: the Han tend to be wealthier than the not so well educated Uighurs in Xinjiang


Rebiyah Kadeer, a prominent exiled Uighur, condemns China for its "fierce repression of religious expression," and "its intolerance for any expression of discontent."

China certainly monitors religious activity in the region to keep religious leaders from spreading separatist views

Some experts, including Nicholas Bequelin (a China researcher for Human Rights Watch), say China's anti-separatist campaign actually provokes more resentment, which can lead to more terrorism.
But other Western outlets say China's counterterrorism measures have been relatively successful.
A review of U.S. State Department documents shows a decrease in Uighur-related terrorism since the end of the 1990s.

China has been concerned that Central Asian states may back a separatist movement in Xinjiang fears that are fueled by the fact that the Soviet Union successfully backed a Uighur separatist movement in the 1940s.
However as Adam Segal, senior fellow for China studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, says China's neighbours "are now fighting their own Muslim fundamentalist groups," which makes them more sympathetic to China's plight and none of China's neighbors have expressed official support for the Uighurs

In the 1980s and 1990s, many Uighurs traveled into Pakistan and Afghanistan, where they were exposed to Islamic extremism. "Some enrolled in madrassas, some enrolled with [the anti-Taliban opposition force] the Northern Alliance, some enrolled with the Taliban, some enrolled with the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan," says Bequelin


Although the situation is much more complex than would appear from some opinions it would seem that unfortunately, as most experts agree, the human rights situation in Xinjiang is likely to get worse before it gets better.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Trouble in Chinese Empire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:22 AM

Giving this thread the heading "Islam and politics" is a bit analogous to opening one about Northern Ireland and calling it "Catholicism and politics".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 01:18 PM

Nearly, but not quite.

Catholicism is not currently being systematically driven out of existence nor being replaced by the state alternative in NI as Islam is in Xinjiang and Buddhism is in Tibet.

In Xinjiang, Culture and religion are being systematically eclipsed.

It would be more comparable to the old days in Ireland when Irish schools were not pemitted to teach in Irish and Catholics were denied the right to property etc.

In those days, the issue of Protestantism vs Catholicism was a real one in the UK and Ireland was its battle ground.

In which case you night indeed have started a thread about pre Dan O'Connell's Ireland with the title "politics and catholicism".


However, that was not where I was coming from.


With all the unfounded assertions going around about marauding Islam engulfing western civilization, I felt it might strike a balance to provide information about just one of the many diverse realities for Moslems and Islam.

Besides which it is both interesting and - as I pointed out in my first post - very sad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 03:04 PM

Lox, I have expressed anger, disgust and concern about the 'demonizing' of Muslims in the Western media in several threads, unfortunately the often violent actions of some fundamental extremists have only encouraged this in the US, UK, China and elsewhere.


The demographics of Xinjiang, as noted, have changed dramatically in the last 50 years and, while acknowledging the ethno-cultural nature of the conflict in Xinjiang, it is important at the same time to avoid generalizing to all of Chinese Muslims,

As I pointed out there are currently 24 million or so muslims in China and, outside of Xinjiang, the vast majority appear to be able to practice their religion with little or no problems

On the website of 'Islam - the modern religion' Abdur Rauf gives a brief history of Islam in China and a Report on Chinese Muslim population

"The Deputy President of the Chinese Muslim Society went on to say that there nine Islamic universities in China at the moment, and attached to every mosque is a Quran schools.
This means that there are 3,500 Quran schools, in which the Quran, Hadith and the Islamic doctrine are being taught, with attendance being on the increase. Furthermore, he said, there are Chinese Muslim students pursuing further Islamic Studies at universities in Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Algeria, at the same time learning the Arabic language."

The Hui people are the largest of many Muslims ethnicities in China.
As this is a music site here is a youtube link to "Hui Girls" appropriately sung by the elegant Hui Muslim singer Ha Hui

and a 'cutesy' video of Chinese girls reciting quran earlier this year here

I agree with you that the current situation is 'very sad' but by no means a simple black and white 'good v bad' situation


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: The Villan
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 03:17 PM

Ugly scenes on the Telly


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:58 PM

Is I-slam like a "poetry slam?"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:48 PM

"by no means a simple black and white 'good v bad' situation"

So... if your neighbour one day stormed into your house and informed you that your house was now his, you wouldn't mind? How about when he started selling off all your shit, and then moved his entire family into your bedroom? And if he had your dog euthanised for barking too loudly, and slapped your kids around when they complained about it... that'd be cool with you?

Oh, I know, I know: "But he didn't evict me from the house, which was awfully kind of him, and he even brought over his awesome TV, which is twice the size of mine. I get to watch it every other Wednesday morning... provided I only watch things that He approves of..."

That'd be, like, a "grey" situation, then, would it?

---Will


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:30 AM

Emma was referring to my comments which had simplified the issue down to a matter of Chinese state ideology versus Islam/freedom of religion.

I accept her point.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 03:53 PM

"On the other,
you have people who are indoctrinated in their religion and feel justified in defending it
violently."

They aren't defebnding their religion, they're defending their basic civil rights. This includes trying to prevent the systematic disintegration of their culture. Their culture includes their religion but it isn't the only defining factor.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM

"From its conquest by the Qing empire in the C18th there have been several attempts to wrest all or part of Xinjiang from Beijing's control

Though this restiveness is often portrayed as an 'enduring clash of civilizations' between Chinese and Muslim realms both the participants and the causes of these episodes have been more diverse than this simplistic formula allows

Indeed, Turkic or Uyghur nationalism has been a far more salient idealogical feature than religious zeal.

Three clusters of events in the 1990s underlie concern about violent Uyghur separatism and terrorism

The first was an armed uprising in Baren (near Kashgar) in April 1990 whose planner employed religious rhetoric and used mosques to disseminate a call to arms.
Some 200 men were apparently involved in the initial up rising

The second was a series of explosions and atempted bombings in 1992 - 1993 involving civilian targets
Though some of the bombs were defused, several casualties resulted from these unclaimed attacks, including a few fatalities

The third cluster from Spring 1996 until February 1997, corresponds chronologically with the inaugration of the "Shanghai Five" organization and a high profile 'Strike Hard' campaign to round up suspected separatists.......

Since 1998, accusations of Uyghur involvement in terrorist activities have become commonplace in Krygyzstan and Kazakhstan
The most serious of these concern the kidnapping of a Chinese businesman (2000) an attack on a Chinese delegation in Bishkek (2000) and the assasination of a senior Chinese diplomat with a Uyrghur buisinessman, and reportedly, a stock of forged passports (2002)"

From Policy Studies 6

"Violent Separatism in Xinjiang - a critical assessment"

East-West Center Washington supported by the Carnegie Corporation


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:46 PM

Obama is right. America has no business to interfere in internal affairs of another sovereign state. That's one of the places the intellectually challenged shrub went wrong on Iraq. The US may express its view if so wishing, but interference is not permissible under international law.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 07:10 PM

Mrs. Kadeer a prominent exiled Uighur, operates from offices on Pennsylvania Avenue, a short stroll from the White House.
She heads various Uighur groups, including the World Uyghur Congress and the Uyghur American Association.

The National Endowment for Democracy (an organization set up in the early 1980s under President Reagan in the wake of all the negative revelations about the CIA in the second half of the 1970s) says it supports some of her groups with grants totaling around $600,000 annually.

"The NED, like the CIA before it, calls what it does supporting democracy.
The governments and movements whom the NED targets call it destabilization."

William Blum, an American author, historian, and critic of United States foreign policy

- between 1990 and 1992, the Endowment donated a quarter-million dollars of taxpayers' money to the Cuban-American National Fund, the ultra-fanatic anti-Castro Miami group. The CANF, in turn, financed Luis Posada Carriles, one of the most prolific and pitiless terrorists of modern times, who was involved in the blowing up of a Cuban airplane in 1976, which killed 73 people. In 1997, he was involved in a series of bomb explosions in Havana hotels.

some folks would say that was interfering 'in internal affairs of another sovereign state' Richard


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:36 PM

That looks like you are agreeing with me - doesn't it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:40 PM

you got it Richard :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:12 AM

One problem is population pressure in China. The government see areas like Xinjiang as resources underexploited by backward nomads. They settle people to exploit the area, which supports intensive agriculture for a few years, before the soil is exhausted. They then move on to new land, leaving behind a desert.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 05:04 AM

The sad news is that during a speech, Obama trivialized the situation by making a stupid remark about "Leave it to Uighur" as if that was funny.

There is nothing funny about this situation. On one hand you have a totalitarian and authoritarian government outlawing practices they don't approve of. On the other, you have people who are indoctrinated in their religion and feel justified in defending it violently. It's a lose-lose situation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 05:17 AM

"America has no business to interfere in internal affairs of another sovereign state"

I suppose we could credit this view to Obama if we wanted.

But it has been the standard Chinese response to any criticism of their domestic policy since the Tiananmen square massacre.

By using these words, he would be sending a message to China that he is listening to them.

It doesn't necessarily represent his view.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 06:59 AM

I don't follow that Lox.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 08:23 AM

Whenever China has come under scrutiny from international critics its response has been to say that the international community has no right to interfere in China's internal affairs.

This was the standard response after the tiananmen square massacre.

"Don't interfere in China's internal affairs".


Obama's choice of words is apparently identical.

This will go down very well with Beijing and they will be much more partial to listening to subtler diplomacy.

I have absolutely no doubt that Obama's use of these words is a deliberate diplomatic statement of his desire for warm constructtive relations with China.

I don't believe it gives any indication of his opinion of the Uighur/Han crisis.

It is only under cordial conditions that China would ever pay any attention to any "helpful advice".

Dealing with China is a tricky business.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Islam and politics
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 09:27 AM

The US has not issued the forceful call that exiled Uighur activists are demanding and which Beijing would label as interference in its domestic business.

Few issues have more starkly highlighted the rest of the world's ambivalence towards the Uighurs cause than the US's long effort to resettle Guantánamo Bay's Uighur detainees.

Newt Gingrich, former Speaker of the House of Representatives, described the Uighur Guantánamo detainees as "trained mass killers instructed by the same terrorists responsible for killing 3,000 Americans on September 11, 2001".
Despite a flurry of denials and refutations, (they were briefly declared "enemy combatants" before the administration of former President George Bush withdrew its claims) the Obama administration gave up on on the idea of resettling them in the US.

Both the Obama administration and that of George W. Bush spent long months trying to find homes for the Uighurs.
They had some success with Albania, Bermuda and, provisionally, Palau, but many more obvious choices, such as Germany (which has the highest Uighur commiunity in Europe and where Uighur activists recently fire bombed the Chinese consulate) and within the US itself, have fallen through.

As Obama joked? at the recent Radio TV Correspondents' Dinner -

"As I travel to all these countries, I saw firsthand how much people truly have in common with one another. Because no matter where I went, there is one thing I heard over and over again from every world leader—no, thanks, but have you considered Palau?"


In early June the small Pacific island of Palau agreed to accept the Uighers on a temporary basis but its government made it clear that it would not grant them permanent asylum.
Palau has retained close ties with Washington since independence in 1994 when it signed a Compact of Free Association with the US.
It relies heavily on the US for aid and defence.

The Pacific island is asking longtime benefactor the United States for a 35-year extension on direct aid funding — and hinting Washington should say yes because of its offer to take in 13 Guantanamo Bay detainees.

U.S. government aid to Palau over the past 15 years has totaled more than $852 million, according to a congressional estimate.
A recent Palauan request for $18 million in aid for next year is awaiting authorization in Congress.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 28 July 6:19 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.