Guitarist's Revenge / United breaks guitars

Subject: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: BanjoRay
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 07:18 PM

For all the people who've ever had an instrument wrecked by an airline, check out this excellent video by the Sons Of Maxwell (no, I'd never heard of them either!). If enough people visit this maybe the airlines'll start to take notice....

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 07:53 PM

I had a Martin D-28 in a hard shell case (the kind ya can sit on and not worry about busting the guitar). A Canadian airline managed to snap the head of the guitar. Airlines do NOT give a shit about musicians' instruments. Of course, keep in mind that baggage is handled by companies that pay their workers minimum wage. Therein is part of the problem--at least in Canada.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Midchuck
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:53 PM

keep in mind that baggage is handled by companies that pay their workers minimum wage.

Yes, I agree that that's part of the problem, but what choice do the companies have? The managers would go to jail if they paid the luggage handlers what they're worth.

Peter

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:00 PM

IMO, a musical instrument the size of a guitar--no bigger actually than some folks' luggage, should be hand-carried to where it's gonna be kept in the plane. I'd gladly pay someone $20 to do that. Buying another seat is simply outta the question. Tell ya, if trains were cheaper--the price of airline tickets, I'd gladly travel that way.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 07:07 AM

Tom Paxton wrote one too - A WHILE back , cant remmber the Airline but I think they no longer trade !

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:03 AM

It was Republic that broke Tom's guitar.

I wouldn't fly United ever again. In London they booked us on a connecting flight that didn't exist. I complained, they said I woul;d get a voucher but when I tried they said I had to do it on line and I was screwed out of the price.

UPS broke my guitar. Apparently these companies only hire those who went to Ape school.

---

Thank You, Republic Airlines

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:05 AM

The rest of the srory:
Here

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:24 AM

LOL.

United managed to bust the wheels of TWO pieces of hold baggage first time out. They told me that they would patch up the holes but wouldn't replace the wheels, even though they admitted that they were responsible.

Another time they lost one of my bags, turned out it fell off the carrier moving it from the plane to the terminal and wasn't noticed. Next day they phoned to say it had been found and that I should come collect it. I let them know in no uncertain terms that they would deliver it to me, since it was their negligence that caused the problem in the first place. After a strong conversation I got my way but only because I stayed assertive.

I agree with this guy - I would avoid United like the plague.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 12:51 PM

No kidding it is probably cheaper to go someplace and buy one or rent one then risk having your vintage guitar worth thousands on an airline. I watched them loading luggage into the plane out my window seat. I saw a guy take someones guitar in a case and heave it onto the concrete while taking it off the truck. Then someone else tossed in on the conveyor belt to go into the plane. You know he did that on purpose cause he had this stupid grin on his face. Nice huh .. Me I will never bring it ever. I will buy a throw away or rent one from a music shop. There are just people out there with mean spirits and it is very sad that they think it is funny

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 01:01 PM

I just watched the video, that is just what I saw .. Northwest Airlines going to Madison Wisconsin. That guy is absolutely right, I bet they would do the same with any instrument. I envy people who play a fiddle, at least that you can bring on board. A large aircraft you probably can carry your guitar and store it up top. Seems like more and more however you get the small regional carriers that nothing fits in the storage bin so you have no choice. On top of that they charge you now for luggage so you get to pay to have them break it.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 01:22 PM

In 1955 and 1956 I made three trips from Seattle to Denver and back, taking my guitar (Martin 00-28-G classic) with me. Flew United. The first two trips, no problem. A flight attended carried the guitar on board and stashed it in one of the coat closets (the plane was a DC6-B, four engine prop). Same on my third trip to Denver. But on my way back, they told me that they would have to put the guitar in the luggage compartment with my suitcase. I protested, saying that they had taken it into the cabin on my previous trips. They were adamant that it would have to go with the luggage. I dug my heels in and announce that if they didn't take it into the cabin and put it into a coat closet as they had before, I wasn't going to go. I would fly another airline. And I got a bit loud about it, with other passengers standing around. They crumbled and agreed to do as I insisted.

But that was then. The last time I flew with my guitar (on a 737), when I wanted the guitar on board and in a coat closet, they refused. If I wanted to take it on board with me, I would have to by a ticket for it. It was a short hop between Grand Rapids and Chicago, so I bought it a half-fair child's ticket ($30.00), and a flight attendant carried it on board and strapped it into the seat next to me. The next leg of the trip (Chicago to Seattle, on a DC-10), no problem taking it on board with me.

But it's not just guitars.

On a trip with Barbara, to visit her mother in Kansas, Barbara and I had to change planes in Denver (United again). By now, I was using a wheelchair. They had crammed the wheelchair in with the regular luggage, and when they brought it to me at the Denver airport, the frame was badly bent. It could be unfolded, but the wheels wouldn't track.

Barbara and I raised hell and slid a brick under it! With a lot of other passengers looking on. They sent a supervisor around. She looked a the chair, wrote up a report, duly apologized, and arranged for me to use a rental chair on my trip, which they paid for. They also paid to have my wheelchair replaced.

But—I am convinced that had I not yelled my head off in front of a group of sympathetic passengers, outraged in my behalf, the rather grim-faced supervisor might very well have just blown me off. But several of the other passengers looking on also wanted to know what the airline was going to do about it.

Sometimes making your complaint with a sympathetic audience present is a big help.

@$#%&!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 01:31 PM

I've heard that Andrés Segovia always bought a seat for his guitar and carried it on board himself. And that cellist Mstislav Rostropovich does the same thing with his cello.

But then, they're were (are) making the bucks, and they can also write it off as a business expense.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Fortunato
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 02:06 PM

While I support Dave who made the video, and deplore any airline's mishandling of instruments and luggage and poor customer service and recompense thereafter, I must give another perspective.

I fly United for business and personal travel. After 150,000 miles of travel with checked bags and instruments (not frequent), I have had my checked luggage misplaced once and delayed once. On both occasions United delivered the bag to my hotel or home without any discussion. We have carried our instruments on and, when necessary, checked them plane side where they travel through fewer handlings and are picked up planeside at arrival. But if checking my guitar through is absolutely necessary, then:

Heres the relatively inexpensive flight case/gig bag combination I use. CaseExtreme http://www.casextreme.com/
case with a Reunion Blues http://www.reunionblues.com/home.html gig bag inside.
For you banjo players, our pal Adam Hurt uses one of these also.

I have flown Northwest, Delta, UsAirways, Southwest, and Continental two things seem to me to be true. 1)United is equal and usually better in performance. 2)When things go wrong, and they will sometimes, a smile and an understanding attitude will obtain the best outcome. Entitled, self-righteous anger is counter-productive.

(We'll be checking Susette's Orpheum at planeside tomorrow).

Wish us luck!
Chance

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 02:29 PM

Self-righteous anger was not my first response, Fortunato. The anger came when I realized that they were trying to give me the bum's rush.

I have flown many times when there were no problems. But it's how they respond when there is a problem that matters. The crushing of my wheelchair was just damned carelessness and incompetence. I had to suggest rather insistently that they rent a wheelchair for me to use for the remainder of my trip or I don't think they would have offered. It never occurred to the supervisor to wonder about how I was going to get around without one.

Don Firth

Subject: Guitarist's Revenge on Airline
From: meself
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:05 PM

Self-explanatory: United Breaks Guitars.

(It's a vid. on youtube).

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge on Airline
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:21 PM

Reminds me of tom paxtons song thank you republic airlines...

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge on Airline
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:45 PM

Good for him! He's a hottie, too!

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge on Airline
From: Beer
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:46 PM

Watched the interview earlier today on CBC.
Good for him.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:48 PM

Too true Don. I start by being reasonable but that doesn't always get you anywhere.

I work on the basis that everyone deserves a chance to put things right. If they do that, then I'm OK. If they don't do that, and both Kendall and I have been on the wrong end of United's sharp stick once too often, then I will avoid them like the plague and let other people know what treatment we have received.

I have watched these guys loading luggage and they really do just chuck it all in without any real care. I've seen bags drop on the tarmac due to careless handling. I'm possibly going to buy my grandson a good guitar when he's over here next year but will be talking to the airline (probably Virgin) about how to get it back to the UK safely.

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge on Airline
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:49 PM

What a great idea. Just put it on my Facebook page..spread the word out. Serves the right, arrogant lot!

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge on Airline
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM

This thread should be combined with "United breaks guitars". Same subject and story.

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge on Airline
From: meself
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:57 PM

yeah, sorry - I just noticed that there's already a thread on this - and I was feeling so proud of myself -

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge on Airline
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:02 PM

Be proud of yourself. If there was only one thread per subject, there'd be only about twenty threads on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: meself
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:07 PM

And now for a feel-good story. When I used to fly regularly between Dorval, Quebec, and Kuujjuaq, on Canadian, while I wasn't allowed to carry on my fiddle, the flight attendant would carry it on himself, and stow it in a safe place. I can still see him, as I watched from the plane window, striding across the tarmac with my fiddle case. Kind of like watching someone dance with your wife. At the end of the flight, he would hand deliver it to me. Unfortunately, Canadian is no longer in operation.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:14 PM

I think shipping it before hand via a reliable carrier with insurance is probably another Idea that I would do before putting it on an airplane ... they are nuts anymore. Try asking a question after your flight has been cancel, United is rude, will tell you to piss off and treat you like a criminal .. last month i got literally screamed at by a United flight attendant for not putting my seat back ... I showed her it didn't go back any further it was broken .. instead of an apology I just got a snub and walk away ... hate the dang airline

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: bill\sables
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:17 PM

I usually carry a large hard suitcase big enough to hold a tenor banjo diagonaly and then pack it with clothes etc. you could do the same for a fiddle, they don't seem to want to dammage suit cases. On another occasion flying to New Zealand from the UK I carried a 5 string banjo in a case inside a golf club holdall, again they didn't know it was an instrument so it was safe.
Bill

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:17 PM

When I'm making $50,000 per gig, I'll buy a seat for my guitar.



Is there any notion out there of taking airlines to court--class action suit?

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:26 PM

I just sent their Customer Relations the following e-mail (and I'll post their response when/if.

Dear People,

I will never again fly United. Your treatment of musicians is deplorable.

TB Murdoch

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Fortunato
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:38 PM

Don et al, I didn't mean to suggest that any of you folks had ever; been self-righteous or angry, or comment on anyone else's experience. Sorry if it sounded that way.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:54 PM

When the airline broke my Martin, the first six--I kid you not, six people I spoke with didn't give a damn. I asked for a manager. It wasn't until I got to him that fur began to fly. Because of him (on a trip thru with a CD in hand, I 'autographed it for him and gave him my sincere thanks) the guitar was repaired by a darned good luthier. HE was sympathetic to my plight. Many of the folks who spoke with me didn't give a rat's ass. Be stubborn, firm and polite.

I don't dish out shit unless someone sends it my way first. Then the gloves are off and that's that.

I too have travelled over 400,000 miles with various airlines, and usually they are good. Sometimes, however, I wonder if they could find their arses with two hands. Little logic, and if no one complains to them, things ain't gonna change. The jet age. Breakfast in London, lunch in New York, supper in San Francisco and baggage in Honolulu.

Chance, that was sparked by your comments (bot NOT addressed to you. Just a general remark.

You are correct. One robin doth not a spring make. And manners IS the best way to start.

Bruce

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:31 PM

A link to that video was posted on a mailing list that I subscribe to.
I watched it and realised it would be of interest here, so I found what seemed
an appropriate thread and added a link there.

Then someone else started this thread.

Then someone else started this thread.

Any chance of combining them?

Richard

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge on Airline
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 07:50 PM

Meself, it is too good a story to miss. Far better two threads than none! It should just make for neater housekeeping if a clone combines them.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:23 PM

Suitcases aren't safe either. One of my hardshell cases came home with a neat hole punched in the side. Smaller than what one would get from a forklift but a lot bigger than that from an icepick- don't know what caused it.

Alaska Airlines honors a letter from TSA, Homeland Security, which means that IF they have room in the coat closet your guitar can go in there. Otherwise, you have to "gate check" it. That means that just before you go down the ramp you surrender the instrument to personnel.
They say that your instrument will go on TOP of the load.

Has anyone here incurred damage from gate checking?

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:05 PM

The song & performance are very good, but could have been a minute shorter with no great loss.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 11:22 PM

Mr. Carroll's band reminds me very much of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band; they have a very nice sound. He should get his video to both the American and Canadian musicians unions - players need to be aware so they can act, and the unions will get this message to all of their members, at least in print.

I just don't fly any more. Back in the 60's when I was a kid, why, the airlines - all of them - treated their passengers like royalty and simply couldn't do enough for you, either in the air or on the ground. Now they treat you like rats. I just don't fly any more.
Now where did I put that North American road map? Cheers,......mwh

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 11:41 PM

I tell ya, I'd rather take a train, but in Canada they are toooooo expensive, by a long shot.

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge / United breaks guitars
From: Barbara
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:11 AM

Don't know if it's still true, but when Alaska Airlines ate my brother's guitar, we got no joy from them until we sent a letter of complaint to the FAA. After that, they coughed up the bucks to have it repaired at a quality luthier's.
The airline's initial position was that since the case was locked and unopened, they could not have caused the damage. We quoted them several guitar repair people who referred to the snapped neck as "the airline break". It is caused by dropping or throwing the case a considerable distance, and the neck snaps from the whiplash. Gaaa.
Perhaps someone else has tried contacting the FAA more recently?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge / United breaks guitars
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:57 AM

I don't know what it contained, but I once watched a very sad-looking package going round on an airport carousel. It was marked "Fragile" and "This Way Up" - it was upside down and looked as if it had been given a good kicking around the tarmac.

Just after it had disappeared through the curtain, I overheard a voice behind me saying, "Don't worry, dear, it's marked 'Fragile'."

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 11:14 AM

As posted there:

Full Story: http://www.davecarrollmusic.com/story... - In the spring of 2008, Sons of Maxwell were traveling to Nebraska for a one-week tour and my Taylor guitar was witnessed being thrown by United Airlines baggage handlers in Chicago. I discovered later that the $3500 guitar was severely damaged. They didnt deny the experience occurred but for nine months the various people I communicated with put the responsibility for dealing with the damage on everyone other than themselves and finally said they would do nothing to compensate me for my loss. So I promised the last person to finally say no to compensation (Ms. Irlweg) that I would write and produce three songs about my experience with United Airlines and make videos for each to be viewed online by anyone in the world. United: Song 1 is the first of those songs. United: Song 2 has been written and video production is underway. United: Song 3 is coming. I promise. Follow me at http://twitter.com/DaveCarroll. Video Produced by Curve Productions of Halifax, http://www.curveproductionsinc.com.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: ClaireBear
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 12:03 PM

I heard an interview with the singer on radio yesterday. He's being very canny in using music in his attempt to bring about this particular social change. In particular, regarding the 3-song series, he goes to great lengths to specify that how song 3 turns out will depend on United's response to 1 and 2.

What's more, the phenomenon has gone totally viral. NPR covered it yesterday, and as I said my local news station conducted an interview (a San Francisco station, BTW, so not local interest).

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 01:52 PM

This is an ongoing issue. An earlier take on this is "Thank you, Republic Airlines [for breaking the neck of my guitar]."

I consider the last line significant: "If you go the way of Braniff."
[It did die, shortly thereafter.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: GUEST,Louise
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:26 PM

They have been removing comments on you tube and have had the counter stopped several times ..lol. I wonder why? United has been caught tho and other airlines should wake up and pay attention. I don't think United is truly going to use the video as a training session or if they do it will be to tell their pple NOT to get caught! How about a video United teaching them how to actually pack luggage? Seems to me they don't need a music video for that! Hands on training might be just as helpful duh! No respect no accountability!

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge / United breaks guitars
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 08:40 PM

No response from United.

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge / United breaks guitars
From:
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 08:53 PM

I always enjoyed hearing Dave Carroll, the songwriter and owner of said damaged guitar, tell the story. This is his own solo song, and not part of the Sons of Maxwell band with his brother. His web-site is at www.davecarrollmusic.com

Also, from what I've heard, Lennie Gallant, another Maritimes Musician takes his guitar on board. Pays for an extra seat and the guitar is there, right next to him.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 12:04 AM

The author I mentioned above is Tom Paxton.

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge / United breaks guitars
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 12:17 AM

Generally, I carry my concertina aboard in its IBM circuit board case, with about 2" of foam on all sides. The only comment I have ever gotten was when a Homeland Security person requested a song.

Even so, I always carry a mini screwdriver with the instrument for emergency repairs.

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge / United breaks guitars
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 12:28 AM

My apologies to meself. When I combined the threads, I intended for his posting and the rest of the ones from his thread, to show up first, as it was started aa few hours before the other one, but I didn't get them in the right order. Sorry, folks.

kat

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge / United breaks guitars
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:40 AM

Over 25 yrs ago I went on an all expense paid month's vacation to Ireland. It was my job to take care of a guy who had MS, it was actually his vacation. When we got to Dublin his wheel chair which was well equiped & was pretty much his home during his waking hrs was destroyed, totaled. They gave him a piece of shit to live in for the next month & would do absolutly nothing more for him, bastards. I tried to bring it onboard, no way, no matter what I tried & was assured it would be fine.

Barry

Subject: RE: Guitarist's Revenge / United breaks guitars
From: Silas
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:53 AM

Too late now I know, but Hiscox make cases that are almost indestructible and they are not expensive - I have one and would seriously recommend them.

Subject: RE: United breaks guitars (YouTube)
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 03:37 AM

I
wrote
to
United.
They
have
yet
to
respond.
Should
Ikeep
holding
my
breath?

(Space
bar
not
working.)