 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:45 PM I see they named the river after you.. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 09 - 12:58 AM It is here, too. I'm in Alberta, Canada. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 22 Jul 09 - 09:19 PM I'm from the north of England, Peace - it's considered an art form around here. It can confuse outsiders, but that's generally considered a good thing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 22 Jul 09 - 09:07 PM What yer sayin' is were a couple of miserable old farts, right? (Well, this half of we is, anyway.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:50 PM I grumble, therefore I am :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:31 PM I'm with Smokey on that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:28 PM Smokey, it is being mischaracterized by those who claim that there is a fundamentalist atheism as if it were religious in itself. That is grossly incorrect. It's an attempt by some religious people to discredit an atheist view. (etc.) I see what you mean now, thanks for your patience. There are atheists who make such a song and dance about it that they may as well be religious though, and I find them intensely irritating. I suspect, that like the religious ranters the attitude comes from insecurity about their beliefs - hence my earlier comment about testing their faith, albeit slightly tongue-in-cheek. I happen to think it is impossible to discredit an atheist view, but sadly it doesn't stop some of 'em trying. I'm inclined to agree with LH, in that they should all just fuck off and leave us in peace. What individuals believe is irrelevant, it's what they DO that counts. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:59 PM I've met a few fundamentalist atheists in my time, strinsinger. They're just as intolerant and bullheaded and unpleasant to be around as the fundamentalist religious people. You can hardly tell the one from the other if you go strictly by their attitude...but they work from diametrically opposite scripts! ;-) It would be nice if they would all agree to go live on some isolated island. They could fight about stuff there, and leave the rest of humanity in relative peace. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 09 - 03:13 PM Well, labels are malleable, but I think there is a spectrum of attitudes, with numerous quirks and twists and kinks in it, ranging from absolute materialism to various degrees of spirituality, various mixes of perception, doctrine, and dogma. In my view there is little distance between dogmatic theists and hard-over dogmatic materialists with no tolerance for spiritual experience. I put them both at the same end of the specturm, the end where the idees fixees and the rigid dogmatism are found. Saying "there is no infinite spiritual plane to be found behind material existence" is different from saying "there is no unary anthropomorphic male at the top of a rigid hierarchy of cherubim"--yet both views could be called atheistic. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 22 Jul 09 - 01:59 PM Smokey, it is being mischaracterized by those who claim that there is a fundamentalist atheism as if it were religious in itself. That is grossly incorrect. It's an attempt by some religious people to discredit an atheist view. Thom Hartmann and Christopher Hitchens had a debate about this on one of the blogs, recently. There was no resolution of the discussion and a complete disagreement about it. Thom says there is a fundamentalist atheism and Chris said no. I agree with Chris. Some people who are religious are analogous to smokers who can't understand those who reject tobacco smoke. They do it and see no reason not to so why shouldn't others? I think there needs to be far more tolerance on the part of many religious people toward accepting that there is an atheist position and allow for disagreement without rancor and defensiveness. I only present my views on the appropriate forum such as this thread. I don't post them to any other thread on another topic. An exception would be if I were challenged about my position. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 22 Jul 09 - 01:08 AM Only joshing, old bean.. Besides, why change perfection ;-? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:57 AM Don't change your self for me, Smoke, you won't be happy. Pedantry has lost it's sparkle, and, at least in the circles that count, is regarded as boring, and bigotry has been overdone-- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:56 AM Amos, eef I zing, zee vorld cries.. I schtick to zee moosick, eet ees murch saifaire. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:12 AM Zing, undt der vorld zings mit you; cry, undt you cry alone. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 21 Jul 09 - 11:29 PM Uh, vott iss ziss 'zing'? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 21 Jul 09 - 11:26 PM Thanks Amos. I don't quite know how I'm going to manage socially without derision and mockery, but luckily I went to an English grammar school, so I've always got pedantry and bigotry to fall back on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 10:01 PM Dave Barry is a widely-read American humorist with a zing. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 21 Jul 09 - 09:21 PM Oh dear, does that mean we have to give up deriding and mocking in order to be 'nice'? Where would 'faith' be without something to test itself against? Dave Barry (who he?) is obviously right, but I don't think you're comparing like with like. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 21 Jul 09 - 08:40 PM I don't really have a problem with any ideas that anyone might have about any sort of deity, pro or con, because I think that God can take care of himself. I have a great deal of respect for people who try to make something worthwhile out of their lives, whether it is in the imitation of Christ, or some other path of self-realization. And as to the people who deride and mock them, I think of Dave Barry, who said, "A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 21 Jul 09 - 07:47 PM Stringsinger, I'm inclined to agree with your views, but how is it possible to mischaracterize atheism? For me it's a very straightforward, effortless thing that doesn't require or offer any defence or explanation. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 07:06 PM Pah! Eet ees a battle of ze wits wiz an unarmed opponent!! Zere is no honor in eet!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:30 PM Absolutement! I cannot resist zee tasty challenge of zee personal combat weez Amos. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:05 PM Me, 'owever, 'e goes haftair personallement, which gives me greate zense of importance in the cartoon world. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:13 PM That's all fine with me, strinsinger. I'm just talking about the subject in a general sense, not going after you personally. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 21 Jul 09 - 03:52 PM LH I do not reject people who have different ideas than me nor do I pester anyone. I will speak out though when someone says something about religion with which I don't agree. I do not think that my position on opposing religion makes me any better than anyone else. I will not be pestered into having to accept any ideas of "spirituality", "transcendence" or any of the airy ideas of supernatural language. I will disagree when they are brought up as a criticism of atheism. I feel the need to defend atheism or agnosticism (which really is a form of atheism) when it is mischaracterized particularly on a thread of this nature. Of course, I am open to discussion on this issue as long as it doesn't get contentious or personal. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 03:04 PM Au contraire, mon frer! Even now I am attempting to process and set up 2 large orders from customers stateside, one in Indiana and one in Minnesota. Then I have to go out to Brafasco at the local industrial mall and see if I can quickly source some large washers with 5/8" holes. I am busy, man, busy, busy. No time for fripperies with the likes of vous. ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:57 PM Leedle Hack: Schtop pretendtink!! You know perfeckly vell you don't verk. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:54 PM Well strap me to a tree and call me Brenda - what are you chaps smoking out there? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:45 PM Where ARE you right now, Amos? Are you at work? If so, get to it, man! Show a little responsibilty. I am at work and I have other stuff I really need to do here... ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:32 PM Ach, Leedle Hack, now you haff REALLY backschlided!! Dot parrot technique is morally lower dan Beardet Bwoosch mimicking his bettersch, und is really below your schtandardsch. You muscht call at once for a new scheries of appointments. Ve haff schome SCHERIOUS recoffery verk to schtart on. Liebenscheiss |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:29 PM Amos's profound admiration for Chinga's highly questionable posturing and lifestyle, and his profound awareness of Chinga's moral shortfalls, are wrapped up in a bubble of benevolence which stems from the fact that Amos sees Chinga as a projection of the unattainable virgin/whore figure that he always secretly wanted but never had. Chongo does not see Chinga in this light, and is thus less forgiving of Chinga's failings and of Amos's patronage of her crass attempts to slander a hardworking and responsible chimp. A frank opinion from Chongo is a good antidote to Amos's waxen enthusiasm for Chinga. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:20 PM Little Hawk's profound admiration for Chongo's inner self and his virtues, and his profound awareness of Chongo's moral shortfalls, are wrapped up in a bubble of benevolence which stems from the fact that Little Hawk sees Chongo as his own projection. Chongo's sister, Chinga, does not see Chongo in this light, and is thus less forgiving of Chongo's failings and Little Hawk's in designing him. A frank opinion from Chinga is a good antidote to LH's waxen enthusiasm. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:15 PM Yes, indeed. ;-) I do exactly the same thing. To be able to laugh at one's own little hypocrisies and arrogant tendencies when one catches them in the act is the first good step to understanding and getting along with other people, in spite of whatever shortcomings they may seem to have. As you say, "one needs to be in touch with one's inner 'twat'". I enjoy playing out stories with various fictional characters like Chongo Chimp in order to demonstrate the amusing and often very predictable behaviour of people who have some good qualities (and Chongo does)...but who also have some major blind spots in certain areas too which can cause them to be quite unreasonable at times. You can't just sum up these characters as "good" or "bad", because they are a confusing mixture of both. Chongo is loyal, courageous, determined, hard-working, and very independent. This is good. He's extremely outspoken. That can be good...or it can be bad...depending on what's going on. He detests prejudice against apes and monkeys...yet he is himself extremely prejudiced against most apes and monkeys because he thinks chimps are way better than all the others! He's very upset by human prejudice against apes and monkeys, but he's equally prejudiced against humans. Most of the time Chongo is relatively unaware of his "inner twat", but now and then he experiences a moment of real clarity, and realizes that he has been behaving like a total jerk. He is then quite capable of admitting to his own foolishness and is genuinely apologetic about it. He tries to make amends. This makes Chongo quite likeable in my opinion. He may be a rough diamond, but there is some real value there. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 20 Jul 09 - 11:15 PM If one becomes aware of that tendency (assuming superiority over those of different belief) in oneself, though, then one is at least on the way toward doing it less, and that's a good start. I'm apt to laugh at myself.. One way or another we can all be twats now and again. (and again) One needs to be in touch with one's 'inner twat', I think. :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jul 09 - 10:52 PM "The onset of intolerance is when we assume superiority over those of different beliefs to our own, and that applies to all of us." Dead right, Smokey! We virtually all do that to some extent, we assume our superiority over those with different ideas or beliefs, and to that extent we are intolerant. I think I've met one or two people in my life who don't do that at all, but I sure don't include myself among them. If one becomes aware of that tendency (assuming superiority over those of different belief) in oneself, though, then one is at least on the way toward doing it less, and that's a good start. I seem to share an old cultural feature of the Indians in the early days of the arrival of the Whites in North America: I really enjoy hearing about other people's religious ideas. I find it fascinating. I don't like it if they aggressively try to convert me (and neither did the Indians like that), but I am delighted to hear them simply explain their beliefs and their traditions. I'm also pleased to see and share in some of their ceremonies, as a guest. I want to hear about a variety of religious traditions and ideas. I find it interesting in its own right, and it helps me know a lot more about other cultures and why they think the way they do and where their ideas came from. It enlarges my view of humanity, and that can only be good. Being of no religion myself, I am free to be friends with any of them...provided they're willing to be friendly to me...and I find that most people are quite willing to be friendly if you treat them respectfully. This is real 3D life I'm talking about, of course. It tends to be a lot nicer and more polite than the Internet....where people feel free to say any damn thing that pops into their mind, because they're artificially separated from the people they're saying it too, and they figure they're risking nothing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 20 Jul 09 - 09:37 PM Yes, I'm rather intolerant in that respect too, though I think the biggest sin is being boring. (was that Oscar Wilde?) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:51 PM I really don't give a darn who's what religion--as long as the individual doesn't TELL me about it. That pisses me off. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:28 PM Especially those of us who understand that principle. We're REALLY the superior ones... :>) Jes' funning. Every viewpoint has a web of firm, even transparent beliefs which inform their core range of awareness. The hardest trick in the world, though, is to recognize from one's set of experiences what beliefs one must be holding, and then to change them. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:25 PM The onset of intolerance is when we assume superiority over those of different beliefs to our own, and that applies to all of us. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jul 09 - 05:41 PM Mrzzy: "The trick is, LH, the only people doing bad things in the name of their undemonstrable belief are the religious, not the nonreligious. And as we've said before, just because the church has done good doesn't mean the church is required to do good. However, who was the philosopher, for good men to do evil requires religion." Not so, Mrzzy. Good men have also been doing evil in the service of political causes and financial objectives since the dawn of human civilization. They obey the orders they get from their commanders and officers and bosses. They very often have no idea that they are doing evil...but they still do it. It is no exclusive preserve of the religious. Political causes are also often founded upon completely undemonstrable beliefs that are simply matters of political philosophy. There are a great many historical examples of that. You see, people do not just have faith in unseen "gods"...they also have faith in unseen ideas and those ideas can stem from the non-religious power structures just as readily as they do from the religious ones. For good men to do evil only requires that they either don't fully understand what they're doing...or they're not strong enough or well-informed enough to hold up under the overwhelming pressure of command structure and general circumstance. Most people are basically good...in a general sense...but they all do some evil now and then, and that's for a great variety of reasons. You can't possibly pin it all on religion. ;-) In fact, it would be laughable to pin it all on religion. You've have to BE a very religious person in some very fundamentalist way all your own to come up with something as extraordinarily unrealistic as that. You're so busy finding just the "weasels" in the woods, Mrzzy, that you don't even notice the bears, wolves, martens, foxes, wolverines, and other predators that hunt alongside the weasels. That seems to be because you don't WISH to look for anything but the weasels. Well, watch out for the wolf. He's right behind you. And he's not religious in the least. ***** strinsinger: "I don't think it's intolerant to disagree with someone else's idea of religion. The intolerance comes in when you try to exert your view over others. I think you can reject the belief system without rejecting the person. I don't think love me love my religion applies." I agree with that, strinsinger. I see no reason why you should not disagree with someone else's idea of religion or reject their belief system. That's entirely your own business. But you shouldn't pester them about it, and you shouldn't blame all the evil in the world on religious people, because if you do that, you are demonstrating a very unreasonable prejudice that cannot possibly be justified. Heck, I reject all kinds of belief systems (religious and otherwise), but that doesn't cause me to prejudge people just because they have a belief system different to my own. I have found very good people in a whole lot of belief systems I don't personally subscribe to. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Jul 09 - 04:20 PM And after a while you end up with Jesse Jackson! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 20 Jul 09 - 04:04 PM A further thought is that while these questions may make an individual vulnerable to religious dialogues, because they engage him spiritually to some degree, the questions that give rise to organized religion are of a different sort altogether, such as "how can I gain control over these rowdy bastards?" and "how can I persuade the community into supporting me?". A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Jul 09 - 04:04 PM The trick is, LH, the only people doing bad things in the name of their undemonstrable belief are the religious, not the nonreligious. And as we've said before, just because the church has done good doesn't mean the church is required to do good. However, who was the philosopher, for good men to do evil requires religion. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 20 Jul 09 - 03:30 PM I don't think it's intolerant to disagree with someone else's idea of religion. The intolerance comes in when you try to exert your view over others. I think you can reject the belief system without rejecting the person. I don't think love me love my religion applies. "What is important in life? What do we live for? Why do we die? What constitutes good and evil, and how should we behave to others? Is there anything beyond death? Is there any higher purpose in our lives? Where did we come from?" These questions do not require religious belief. Nor do they really require a philosophical system of belief. What is important in life is highly individual and can't be scripted. What do we live for is built in to our DNA. Good and evil depend on certain definitions that are often hard to agree about. In religion, there is a Manichean view which states that there are definitive goods and evils proscribed by religion. Is there anything beyond death to me is a question not worth asking. There can be no answer that makes any sense. Higher purpose does not require philosophy or religion to suggest what that is. It is highly dependent on values and definitions. We are learning more about where we come from through scientific breakthroughs in physiology, cosmology and other disciplines. In short, you don't need religion or philosophy to answer these questions, some of which will remain unanswerable regardless. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jul 09 - 03:29 PM "People who object to other people being either religious or nonreligious strike me as being a lot like people who object to other people belonging to any religion or political party or nation or culture or race that is different from their own. They're intolerant and prejudiced and probably fearful at some level. Whichever thing makes them most afraid...that's where you'll find their strongest prejudice coming forth." You've hit the proverbial nail on the head, Little Hawk-- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jul 09 - 03:26 PM I don't think we exactly disagree, Mr. Red--I was just saying that morality doesn't come from the Universe, it comes from us--I use "Grand Architect of the Universe" in the sense that Freemasons do, as sort of a catch-all for your favorite Prime Cause---An atheistic universe still has to have a Prime Cause, of some sort--- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jul 09 - 01:59 PM Yes, the primary reason for building walled settlements was for the defense of the community from raids by armed bands of soldiers and bandits. The only way you could do it was to erect high walls around the place. The settlements were usually primarily agriculturally-based to begin with, but wherever you gather many people together you also provide much opportunity for tradespeople of all kinds, thus you begin creating a mercantile base as well...and it keeps growing. All of this is beautifully described in "The Pillars of the Earth". The people in Kingsbridge are eventually forced to build a wall around the town out of sheer necessity, because a loal baron keeps raiding the place and killing its people. Such things would have inevitably occurred with or without religion, but religion is one of the things that naturally seems to arise with the growth of a human culture. And why? Because people seek answers about the biggest philosophical questions in life, that's why. Questions like: What is important in life? What do we live for? Why do we die? What constitutes good and evil, and how should we behave to others? Is there anything beyond death? Is there any higher purpose in our lives? Where did we come from? Much of science also arises out of these questions, and that's why religion and science were seen as parts of the same discipline for a very long time...and probably will be seen that way again in the rather near future. All these questions are very much worth asking, and it is because people ask them that we have both religions and philosophies of all kinds. People who object to other people being either religious or nonreligious strike me as being a lot like people who object to other people belonging to any religion or political party or nation or culture or race that is different from their own. They're intolerant and prejudiced and probably fearful at some level. Whichever thing makes them most afraid...that's where you'll find their strongest prejudice coming forth. They might better be happy with their own way of being and leave others alone to likewise be happy with their own way of being. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 20 Jul 09 - 01:52 PM Well, centers for defense may have been the basis of city-formations, but there's nothing religious about wanting to stay alive and fend off marauders. And there's nothing religious about most marauding, either. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Jul 09 - 01:31 PM There's no evidence that the first cities were mercantile. Settlements like Jericho and Çatal Hüyük were probably more defensive in nature- in a world where some have crops and domestic cattle, and others live as gatherers and hunters it makes sense to concentrate strongly enough to frighten or fight off marauding bands. The Mesopotamian cities developed around the need to organise massive communal works for irrigation- based agriculture. The need for organisation came first, and it's the power behind the organisation that needed a legitimisation- hence priesthoods and religions. Trading in the earlier days seems to have been more ritual than economic, though as the elites became more successful at monopolising surpluses, trade in luxury goods became established. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 20 Jul 09 - 12:56 PM it was the tool used to steal the hard work of ordinary folk that made cities possible. I think you will find there are plenty of simple economic factors in the mercantilism that brought about the expansion of the first cities without landing on religion as th eprimary tool. That is not to say that religions haven't stolen lots of hard work from people at all levels; not to mention lives, property, families and other valuables! The net worth of the Catholic Church today is probably as big as many international corporations. One discussion on Yahoo as regards the net worth of the RC organization worldwide:
Consider, as well, that these valuations do not include the estimation of market value of properties world-wide, or holdings of priceless works of art and antiquity of which there is no clear inventory publicly available. A |
