Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Reacting to anti immigration songs

The Sandman 13 Jul 09 - 04:41 AM
Valmai Goodyear 13 Jul 09 - 04:56 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 13 Jul 09 - 05:01 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 13 Jul 09 - 05:23 AM
Fred McCormick 13 Jul 09 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 13 Jul 09 - 05:47 AM
Royston 13 Jul 09 - 05:47 AM
Zen 13 Jul 09 - 05:48 AM
Phil Edwards 13 Jul 09 - 05:58 AM
foggers 13 Jul 09 - 05:59 AM
The Sandman 13 Jul 09 - 06:25 AM
The Sandman 13 Jul 09 - 06:34 AM
MartinRyan 13 Jul 09 - 06:37 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Jul 09 - 07:24 AM
Jack Blandiver 13 Jul 09 - 07:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jul 09 - 07:30 AM
Phil Edwards 13 Jul 09 - 07:32 AM
Jack Blandiver 13 Jul 09 - 07:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jul 09 - 07:54 AM
Tim Leaning 13 Jul 09 - 07:55 AM
theleveller 13 Jul 09 - 08:16 AM
Royston 13 Jul 09 - 08:17 AM
Tug the Cox 13 Jul 09 - 08:29 AM
Royston 13 Jul 09 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 13 Jul 09 - 09:11 AM
Royston 13 Jul 09 - 09:23 AM
Gibb Sahib 13 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Jul 09 - 09:55 AM
Phil Edwards 13 Jul 09 - 10:18 AM
theleveller 13 Jul 09 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,synbyn 13 Jul 09 - 11:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jul 09 - 04:30 PM
MartinRyan 13 Jul 09 - 04:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jul 09 - 04:59 PM
The Sandman 13 Jul 09 - 05:31 PM
bubblyrat 13 Jul 09 - 05:34 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Jul 09 - 05:50 PM
The Sandman 13 Jul 09 - 05:57 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Jul 09 - 06:04 PM
MartinRyan 13 Jul 09 - 06:05 PM
Royston 13 Jul 09 - 06:14 PM
The Sandman 13 Jul 09 - 06:26 PM
The Sandman 13 Jul 09 - 06:31 PM
The Sandman 13 Jul 09 - 06:41 PM
Matthew Edwards 13 Jul 09 - 06:49 PM
MartinRyan 13 Jul 09 - 06:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jul 09 - 07:19 PM
Leadfingers 13 Jul 09 - 07:56 PM
dick greenhaus 13 Jul 09 - 09:14 PM
MartinRyan 13 Jul 09 - 09:38 PM
The Sandman 14 Jul 09 - 05:42 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: anti immigration songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:41 AM

If a performer got up and sang an anti immigration song in a Folk club,how would you react
would you
1.Walk out mid song.
2,Heckle the performer mid song
3 ,complain to the organiser afterwards.
4,complain to the performer in the break.
5.other,please specify.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: anti immigration songs
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:56 AM

If it was a night when I was MCing, I think I'd stop them mid-song and probably invite the audience to vote on whether they wanted to hear the rest of the song.

It's very likely, however that there would be so much spontaneous noise from the audience that all an MC would have to do is say, 'You've got the sentiment of the house - that's more than enough'.

Valmai (Lewes)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: anti immigration songs
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:01 AM

Captain, I'm just wondering, what kind of songs do you know of that ilk?

My own feeling is that I think almost any song is probably alright to sing if placed *in context* with appropriate introduction.

If I thought that the performer was just being an arsehole though, I'd leave and complain to management.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: anti immigration songs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:23 AM

As an example - since the Craptain does not have one available.... and since he currently resides as an immigrant in Ireland.
may I suggest Famine Song sung by some Glasgow Rangers fans.
The lyrics call on people to leave Scotland because of their racial origins.

In a court judgement eight months ago...it was ruled...
that the lyrics fo not bear any reasonable comparison to those of
'Flower of Scotland' or indeed 'God Save the Queen'.

"Rather they are racist in calling upon people native to Scotland to leave the country because of their racial origins. This is a sentiment which... many persons will find offensive."

Lord Carloway added that the appeal judges had no difficulty in accepting the sheriff's conclusion that
singing the song's chorus "displays malice and ill-will towards people of Irish descent living in Scotland".

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Now - if some kind soul would post the lyrics ...
We might get a hooligan hoedown going.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: anti immigration songs
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:26 AM

This has only happened to me once. About 40 years ago some crud got up in a folk club and sang an extremely racist song to the tune of Island in the Sun. I was a lot more naive then and I sat there and said nothing, and have regretted that I didn't walk out protesting vehemently.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: anti immigration songs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:47 AM

Well - if you want go - if you don't send - here we have a popular UK example.

Famine Song (2008) Tune Sloop John B football chant, used to taunt Celtic fans Celtic for Catholics, Rangers for Protestants. the chorus:

I feel so broke up
I want to go home.

Is Replaced With:

The famine's over
Why don't you go home?

http://wearenotthepeople.blogspot.com/2008/09/racist-famine-song.html

FAMINE SONG

I often wonder where they would have been
If we hadn't have taken them in
Fed them and washed them
Thousands in Glasgow alone
From Ireland they came
Brought us nothing but trouble and shame
Well the famine is over
Why don't they go home?

Now Athenry Mike was a thief
And Large John he was fully briefed
And that wee traitor from Castlemilk
Turned his back on his own
They've all their Papists in Rome
They have U2 and Bono
Well the famine is over
Why don't they go home?

INSTRUMENTAL

Now they raped and fondled their kids
That's what those perverts from the darkside did
And they swept it under the carpet
and Large John he hid
Their evils seeds have been sown
Cause they're not of our own
Well the famine is over
Why don't you go home?

Now Timmy don't take it from me
Cause if you know your history
You've persecuted thousands of people
In Ireland alone
You turned on the lights
Fuelled U boats by night
That's how you repay us
It's time to go home.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Some pretty damning accusations - and they have not even included "The Irish Brigade" treason in the Mexican American war.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: anti immigration songs
From: Royston
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:47 AM

Put a stop to the performance straight away, Birdseye. Always assuming the MC didn't have the good sense to step in before me.

Folksong is the idiom of the people. The ordinary (working) person. It has existed to celebrate the shared experience and diversity of the ordinary working people and has celebrated all colours and creeds of working folk.

That is the folk heritage and I for one am not about to relinquish one note of it to bigots - whether they are deliberate racists or crusty old twats who should know better but are happy to wallow in their own unpleasant crap from the past because they have decided they don't want to learn new tricks!

Now, can a kindly elf bury this in the utter bollocks section please.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: anti immigration songs
From: Zen
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:48 AM

I fortunately haven't heard such a song sung in a folk club but I was witness once to some racist behaviour in a session towards some very good musicians of African origin (this wasn't in the UK). I got up on that occasion, made my feelings known and left. I never played again with those responsible for the abuse (who were quite well-known locally and apparently members of a far-right political group) although others continued (to my regret) to do so.

Zen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: anti immigration songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:58 AM

Relatedly, I physically can't listen to a performer celebrating - or commemorating - the Old South, apartheid South Africa or white rule in Zimbabwe*. My legs are halfway to the bar by the time they reach the first chorus. I actually like The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down as a song, but I'm damn well not going to endorse it.

*I've never actually heard anyone sing the praises of apartheid South Africa, but I'm sure it's been done.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: anti immigration songs
From: foggers
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:59 AM

I have not been in this situation but I hope that I would speak up in protest if the MC appeared to be letting it go by unchallenged.

Of course, the degree of lucid, restrained dignity with which I would conduct myself would depend on the amount of beer previously imbibed!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: anti immigration songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:25 AM

Royston QUOTE,Now, can a kindly elf bury this in the utter bollocks section please.End of quote.
no,its about suitable or unsuitable music being played in Folk clubs.
it is not utter bollocks,has it not occurred to you ,that the BNP might wish to do this,[this is not about as you describe in a derogatory manner crusty old twats ,but people using folk clubs as a place to sing racist anti immigration songs].
Royston while I am on the same side as you,I find you ill mannered and rude.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:34 AM

Crow Sister,I agree there are not many in the traditional reperetoire,but the folk clubs repertoire also includes contemporary songs,a singer song writer can get up and sing an anti immigration song.
at what point does freedom of expression end,I think it ends with the singing of racist, anti immigration songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: MartinRyan
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:37 AM

its about suitable or unsuitable music being played in Folk clubs

Nothing to talk about if it's "suitable", methinks.

This thread appears to be about the possibility (remote, judging by the examples quoted) of songs propagating a racist, anti-immigration perspective being sung in folk clubs. Gargoyles example of the use of essentially racist material by football fans is interesting - but reflects a quite deliberate goading which is unlikely in folk clubs. Much more likely is the innocent use of songs which the virulently anti-racist fraternity would CHOOSE to take offence at.

Of course,it's just possible that the thread is nothing more or less than another attempt to push the "anti-fascist" agenda to the top of the page and reduce the likelihood of reasoned debate.

Regards ;>)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:24 AM

I have heard a racist version of "Island in the Sun". My then friend who thought it funny died some years ago. He was a diver and a big boat sat on him. If I heard it now I might well feel obliged to object, but I was young and foolish then.

I know that David Hannam of the BNP does perform racist songs he has written, and they are quite well crafted and performed, but my reaction might well be conditioned by how many of his goons were right behind me at the time.

If I went into a Dublin bar and sang Harvey Andrews' "the Soldier" I think I'd be lucky to get out alive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:24 AM

It's the seemingly innocent little hints that irk me the most, like when someone sings a sentimental self-penned song about coming home from London to the town in which they used to live only to discover that amongst other changes - horror of horrors! - that the chippy is now a takeaway. The racist implication here is strong enough of course, but an argument could be made for simple reportage, although why mention it otherwise? So much Folk is turned on the past (not the traditional stuff which being of the moment belongs to the future) rather in Folk Song Writing where one finds wafts of mawkish nostalgia with which I can only go so far. Thus I remain wary, all too aware of the dangers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:30 AM

Nostalgia for the past is a very common thread in folk song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:32 AM

only to discover that amongst other changes - horror of horrors! - that the chippy is now a takeaway

Fletcher had a great line in the first episode of Going Straight - "Tandoori? What happened to good old English kebabs and Chinese takeaways?"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:52 AM

Nostalgia for the past is a very common thread in folk song.

Even in Traditional Song? Not the ones I sing. Even the word Nostalgia sounds like a morbid affliction of the brain.

in the first episode of Going Straight

An unsung classic, obviously somewhat over-shadowed by its predecessor but watching it recently on one of the Shy channels I was amazed at how good it was.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:54 AM

The Rare Old Times?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:55 AM

I have enjoyed music with references to coons etc in fact was taught them at school and listened to them on the BBC.
Hopefully children today wont have that experience.
I don't know which of the options given I would choose but I will certainly think about it now.
Thanks for putting this thread up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:16 AM

Interesting thread, Dick - certainly makes you think. It's never happened but I guess that I would make a show of getting up and heading for the bar (I suspect, along with a great many more of the audience). At the interval/end I would make my own views known to the performer and have a word with the MC to say that if songs of that sort were allowed in future, I would not be attending the club. If I was on after the performer, I'd make a point of saying that I disagreed with the sentiments expressed and perform my anti-BNP song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Royston
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:17 AM

Songs about the "good old days", reminiscences, etc. tend to be taking a happy image, a nostalgic theme and they *simply* say how marvellous that time/moment/image/feeling was.

There could never be anything wrong with that.

A song that then tips over into a sentiment like "Now, it's changed, full of strange people, I don't like it, wish they'd all go home" is unacceptable. Immigrant folk may be trying, reasonably, to have happy lives and experiences that they could write a reminiscent song about. Why shouldn't they be respected for that, and supported? People are entitled to hold negative views of sections of society if they must, they are to be discouraged from singing about their prejudices in a public space.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:29 AM

Times , tastes etc change. The first songs I learned were irish rebel songs, being a catholic I had a fellow feeling for those who suffered at the hands of the Black and tans. I particularly admired Dominic behan's 'Patriot Game'. When the Birmingham Bombings happened no-one dared sing these songs in public for fear of inflaming violent sentiment. One otherwise mild and level headed man of my acquintance publicly broke all his Clancy brothers records!
   Now such songs are once again accepted as some sort of historical commentary on former times.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Royston
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:44 AM

TtC,

I get what you mean, but the Cromwell campaign in Ireland is part of the British, as well as the Irish heritage. My sympathies were always clear to me and I sang Irish Rebel songs that talked about the original injustice and the righteous resistance against an overwhelming invading military force as well as the need for an equitable and peaceful modern settlement of those injustices.

I would never sing (and nor would right-minded Republicans) songs about blowing up civilians or police or soldiers in the twentieth century.

I would never get into singing songs about contemporary and specific acts or grievances - too dangerous, inflammatory and unhelpful to the cause of peaceful settlement; which requires calm heads and dialogue.

So the distinctions around songs should be clear, I think, to most of us. The parallel you draw is a good one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:11 AM

I `ad that Royston in my cab the other night.I picked `im up from that "`orse & `arrow`" club in `ertford. `e looked well despondent. You`da thought `is A `ad gone down to G sharp in the middle of his song.
I said, "What`s up then, Roy? Didn`t they like your songs then?"
`e said, "Jim, you just can`t please anybody these days. They said they wouldn`t `ave any anti-immigration songs so I done `em one about `ow nice it will be when there is 80 millions of us living `ere. Blimey, that brought the pains on. `alf the audience made a dash for the passport office!!!

Whaddam I Like??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Royston
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:23 AM

LOL Jim, you got me. That's genuinely funny! Wish you'd name yourself and stay around!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM

I'd walk out and get a plane back to America ;)

Seriously though, I am the kind of person that follows a policy of letting people express their beliefs and opinions-- with the assumption they'd do me the same favor in return. I would probably leave if it was clear that the rest of the night was going to be such crap or if I wasnt enjoying myself otherwise. However I would not complain to anybody or heckle....or walk out dramatically. Not only would that be immature, it also communicate a message that "my opinions are more worthy than yours."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:55 AM

I would first be astounded by the effrontery, and then I would hang around to see what sort of response the audience gave. If that response was total silence I would join it heartily. If the audience applauded that would be the time to leave! No dramatics. I would say the only place we can respond to such people is in the ballot box.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 10:18 AM

I would not complain to anybody or heckle....or walk out dramatically. Not only would that be immature, it also communicate a message that "my opinions are more worthy than yours."

Not really - more "my opinions are as worthy as yours". I also think there's a big difference between heckling and heading for the bar; to me it's the difference between not showing respect and showing active disrespect. But YMMV.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 10:42 AM

"it also communicate a message that "my opinions are more worthy than yours." "

I don't think it does. What it says is that I am not going to condone an opinion with which I heartily disagree by staying here. It certainly isn't immature - it's a considered reaction and one that I would make sure I explained to the person in question when it would not disrupt the evening for the rest of the audience.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: GUEST,synbyn
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:31 AM

If the sonwriter is anty good he/she will be able to see things from many angles during the course of an evening. It's perfectly possible ( in the Uk, I've no experience elsewhere) to set down lyrics which are obviously ironic when performed but which on the page may look iffy.

If the songwriter is creating a character who is whose views are supposed to be reflected, it emphatically does not mean that the songwriter endorses those views. It's called imagination. It's essential imho to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes for a moment, even if they don't fit. Then you may discover why it is that they have a permanent scowl. Each song has its internal integrity.

Some of the worst songs about imho are those in which the writer pussyfoots away from directly representing the character they're singing about. We might not agree now, but it is important that historical attitudes are not tainted with platitudes if we want our songs to be at all credible.

I like to think that most writers are well aware of these pitfalls, and one of the traits which makes Harvey Andrews so important is his absolute truth to his characters. If more were like him there would be less misunderstanding and misrepresentation, I think.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:30 PM

"...that the chippy is now a takeaway. The racist implication here is strong enough of course."

Our local chippy used to be run by Greeks, now it's run by Chinese. The chips are still as good as ever. And they do Chinese food as well.   And of course, like every chippy, it has always been "a takeaway".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: MartinRyan
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:52 PM

--- and was, usually, Italian to begin with!

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:59 PM

Are you refering to just anti-immigration songs, Dick, or to any songs with racist meanings?

If it is the latter what would you class as racist? The matter has been done to death here and I believe I am in a minority in classing any negative stereotypes as potentialy racist. It has been pointed, for instance, out that anti-British songs sung in Ireland are not racist but I am not sure I agree. OK - To be pedantic the English and Irish are of the same race, but to take that to the extreme everyone on the planet is also of the same race (unless someone knows better!) therefore no racism can exist.

If however it is the former I could not think of any and am indebted to Gargoyle for coming up with at least one. Can you give us examples of what type of stuff you are refering to so we can get a better idea on the situation you are describing?

Cheers

DeG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:31 PM

I am referring to anti immigration songs.
we are talking about a hypothetical situation,but a possible scenario,a contemporary song, [for example]about all the eastern Europeans,arriving in England,and how the SONGWRITER feels they should all be sent home.
it is not beyond the realms of possibility,that someone might get up and sing such a song,after all we have one mudcat member MBSGeorge who is a BNP member,she attends Sidmouth festival and presumably goes to folk clubs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: bubblyrat
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:34 PM

Personally,in over 40 years of going to folk clubs and folk festivals,I have never heard anyone sing an anti-immigration song,although one of my favourite songs is "Welcome ,Emigrante" by Buffy St .Marie, a blatantly PRO -immigration song !! However,if someone DID sing one, I would try to sympathise to a degree,because Great Britain is ,after all, only a small, already over-populated country,and one can understand why some people might be concerned about uncontrolled,unregulated immigration into it,especially by people who have no inclination to integrate socially,sexually,or religiously ,with the indigenous populace.It is a matter of great concern to me,but I would not condone the performance of offensive songs about it----there has to be a better and more sensitive way in which to addrerss the problem ( OK, Richard ??.---I have to ask HIS permission to have an opinion about ANYTHING on Mudcat nowadays !!!).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:50 PM

Thanks for that clarification, bubbly,
I was led astray earlier by racist discussion. There is absolutely no racist element to being anti-immigration. As it happens I am very pro immigration but I understand and respect the views of the anti-immigration lobby, many of whom are of ethnic minority background anyway. I understand the fears of those worried about losing their jobs living where I do in Hull and in the current economic climate.
Just looking at it from the Poles' point of view, there are only a limited number of jobs for them. If too many come across it makes it more difficult for those already here to get a job.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:57 PM

[There is absolutely no racist element to being anti-immigration,]end of quote.
yes, there is a racist element, it means certain races cannot live and cannot work in other parts of[for example ]Europe,that is racist,it is depriving people of the right to work because of their nationality.
eg,you cannot work or live in England because youare polish /french/greek etc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:04 PM

Great Britain is ,after all, only a small, already over-populated country

The NF were saying this in the 1970s. It wasn't true then and it isn't true now.

And as for the line about

people who have no inclination to integrate socially,sexually,or religiously ,with the indigenous populace

...that one goes back a lot longer than the 1970s. Racists were saying this about West Indians in the 1960s, Jews in the 1910s and Irish immigrants in the 1850s. Time has shown all those fears to be unfounded, and in time the fears of the current crop of racists will also be forgotten.

It is a matter of great concern to me

Good news: your concern is unfounded.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: MartinRyan
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:05 PM

Cap'n, Sir

YOU are choosing to equate nationality with race. You're welcome to do so - but it does make intelligent discussion rather difficult since most people don't conflate the two concepts. I agree that there are similarities in the psychologies involved - but they're not the same thing. Why is it necessary to up the ante {to coin a phrase ;>)} by labelling xenophobes as racists? The answer, I suspect, is the automatic opprobium that, in certain circles at least, the tag "racist" brings.

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Royston
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:14 PM

So to be more circumspect, I am always most anxious to listen to and understand people's concerns.

I seem to be in disagreement with Captain Birdseye and Bubblyrat who have in various ways both expressed concern at immigration in England - a country they feel is variously "swamped" or "overcrowded" by "non-integrating" types.

I gather that The Captain doesn't live in England (or even UK) Can that be true?

I don't know where Bubbly comes from so I can't develop an empathy for his day to day experience, can you help me please, Bubbly?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:26 PM

Martin,
if you deprive people of certain nationalities/race the chance to work and live in another country,that is racist,and is no different from the slogan that Irish people used to encounter,when applying for jobs NINA,NO IRISH NEED APPLY.,which is considered by many to be racist.
It is also racist[and illegal] to not allow polish /greek hungarian spanish/ french/rumanian/ lithuanian/ irish/latvian people ,into England,on the grounds of their nationality and race,thus depriving them of the opportunity to work.
I presume you do consider the Irish a race,and you presumably are an Irish national and of the Irish race.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:31 PM

I have not shown concern about immigration,re read my posts.
Royston please read peoples posts ,before making hare brained statements,please show where I am supposed to have shown concern about immigration.
I live in Ireland,although I am English,but what that has to do with it I dont know.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:41 PM

[I seem to be in disagreement with Captain Birdseye and Bubblyrat who have in various ways both expressed concern at immigration in England - a country they feel is variously "swamped" or "overcrowded" by "non-integrating" types.]end of quote.
I have never said any of the above,it is completely inaccurate, those were the words of bubbly rat .
once again I am owed an apology.
try going to get some reading glasses


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:49 PM

Although Dick may not have meant to do so, he is effectively trolling in this thread. As he admits he is invoking a "hypothetical situation" which has laid a sort of bait to get responses which then lead to further arguments which go nowhere. As much as I respect some of the answers given above, I think it is only Gargoyle with his usual incisiveness as the Master Baiter who has spotted what is going on here.

There are enough real issues with intolerance, racism, and anti-immigration in the world today without looking for unlikely "possible scenarios".

I don't know of any anti-immigration songs in the tradition; there are plenty of anti-emigration songs of which perhaps the finest is Paddy's Lamentation with the great line:-
"To Amerikay I'd have you not be coming".

Matthew Edwards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: MartinRyan
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:57 PM

Matthew

Thank you for your calm contribution. I had already drafted a weighty, considered response to the Cap'n's remarks addressed to me - but fortunately saw your post in a separate window before I made the fatal "click"!

The resemblance to Alice in Wonderland is clear - without a common vocabulary and sense of what words mean (not the same thing), this kind of discussion is pointless - particularly when framed in hypothetical terms.

Regards
p.s. effectively trolling in this thread - how did you resist "trawling"?!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:19 PM

"Why is it necessary to up the ante {to coin a phrase ;>)} by labelling xenophobes as racists?" (Martin Ryan.

There's a distinction in theory - racists are people who link their hostility to foreigners to some doolally theory about "race". Perhaps that can be more dangerous in some ways - but in practice there's not too much difference.

I can't see any way in which someone who hated Poles or Jews would be any less objectionable if they could prove that they didn't think the Poles or Jews were "a different race". That wouldn't "lower the ante".

For example that Rangers song may not be "racist" - but it's still repulsive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:56 PM

Personally , I am TOTALLY opposed to ANYBODY being freely admitted to MY country who is going to be ANY kind of burden on a Welfare State to which they have never contributed , and do not intend to so do . And that holds wether they be Black ,Brown , Yellow , Pink , or any other So Called colour . Equally , any one who comes to this country and is prepared to work and pay taxes , save some money and take it with them when they leave , again , Black , Brown , Yellow , or ANY other colour , is welcome .
And if someone sang a 'Go Home Now' song , I would expect the Club to take action , otherwise I would sever all connection with the club , and tell them why in VERY plain language.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:14 PM

For an example in the tradition, I give you:


TWELVE HUNDRED MORE

O workingmen dear, and did you hear
The news that's goin' round?
Another China steamer
Has been landed here in town.
Today I read the papers,
And it grieved my heart full sore
To see upon the title page,
O, just "Twelve Hundred More!"

O, California's coming down,
As you can plainly see.
They are hiring all the Chinamen
And discharging you and me;
But strife will be in every town
Throughout the Pacific shore,
And the cry of old and young shall be,
"O, damn, `Twelve Hundred More' "
They run their steamer in at night
Upon our lovely bay;
If 'twas a free and honest trade,
They'd land it in the day.
They come here by the hundreds
The country is overrun
And go to work at any price-
By them the labor's done.

If you meet a workman in the street
And look into his face,
You'll see the signs of sorrow there
Oh, damn this long-tailed race!
And men today are languishing
Upon a prison floor,
Because they've been supplanted by
This vile "Twelve Hundred More!"

Twelve hundred honest laboring men
Thrown out of work today
By the landing of these Chinamen
In San Francisco Bay.
Twelve hundred pure and virtuous girls
In the papers I have read,
Must barter away their virtue
To get a crust of bread.

This state of things can never last
In, this our golden land,
For soon you'll hear the avenging cry,
"Drive out the China man!"
And then we'll have the stirring times
We had in days of yore,
And the devil take those dirty words
They call "Twelve Hundred More!"

From American Labor Songs of the Nineteenth Century, Foner
Note: In 1877-1878, Dennis Kearney's Working Men's Party achieved
some political success in California by attacking, not the other
political parties or the bosses, but the Chinese who were
imported as a source of cheap labor. The party splintered and
broke up shortly after, but left a legacy of exclusionary
legislation aimed at the Chinese in California.

tune: Wearing of the Green
@work @labor
filename[ TWLVMORE
TUNE FILE: WEARGREN
CLICK TO PLAY
RG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: MartinRyan
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:38 PM

McGrath of Harlow,


Not for the first time - I agree! As I'm sure you realise, I'm not suggesting a hierarchy of hate-systems and their proponents. I remain convinced, however, that the knee-jerk use of terms like "racist" and "fascist" in certain circles is often/usually intended to insult rather than describe (bit like the Rangers fans example?). Such an attitude is rarely helpful to debate.

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Reacting to anti immigration songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 05:42 AM

I have not used the term facist,but it is racist to deprive people of work on the basis of their colour ,or nationaility.
David el gnomo asked me a question which I attempted to answer,the situatuon might well be hypothetical,but is quite likely to happen,by discussing it,people[folk club goers]can prepare themselves for the most suitable response.
I get really pissed off with people like Royston,who come charging in to discussions like these without reading the posts properly.
I am certainly not against immigration,I understand that it is one of the essentials of the capitalist system,,it allows employers to exploit and get cheaper labour,Capitalism relies upon a number of things to be successful, cheap labour,cheap materials,careful control of quantity of production[too much production the price falls],and the abilty of entrepreneurs to see a market that can be expanded.
The immigrant could be the entrepreneur or the one forced to labour for cheaper rates.
but providing all European immigrants are allowed to travel anywhere in Europe to work,the BNP cant stop them coming in to England,it is a classic example of the free market,and a classic example of how capitalism functions.
I also think the capitalist system has lots of flaws.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 21 August 9:12 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.