Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 01:51 PM

Michael - you're probably right. It WAS a good training ground 38 years ago, and I learned to reach out and grab a crowd's attention even if they weren't there specifically to hear me, because unlike today there WEREN'T cell-phones and I-pods and MP3 players and a dozen TV sets to contend with.

Without those distractions, I had a better than 50-50 chance of winning them over.

And people who had come to hear me were a bonus!

Seamus

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: dwditty
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:19 PM

mmmm...I guess what I get out of all this is that if a performer is having a problem gaining attention/respect/adoration/etc. from the audience in a pub (and presumably anywhere else), it is the audience's fault.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:38 PM

DWD, on the contrary, I think there were a lot of good suggestions as to how a performer might go about gaining the attention of a difficult audience. And what is that "presumably anywere else" comment supposed to mean? Did anybody say they had a problem getting the audience's attention in a concert setting? The original poster asked a legitimate question. He didn't deserve sarcasm.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: dwditty
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 03:00 PM

I quite agree, Mary. I apologize for being flippant. My original post to this thread was fully intended as helpful recommendation for Jeremy. I also agree, there are lots of good thoughts here. There is also a fair amount of blame being thrown onto the audience who, in my opinion, is under no obligation to forego their own good time to accomodate the performer. In this regard, I mean the audience as a whole, not the rude behavior of one or two (or more) hecklers disrupting a peformer to whom the audience is trying to hear.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 07:43 PM

Sorry if I misunderstood your intent, DWD. I agree that it's the entertainer's job to get the attention of the audience. Some venues/audiences make that harder to do than others.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: JeremyC
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 09:02 AM

Willie-O: I see what you mean about looking for other venues if the pop songs are a drag. The main thing for me is that it seems as if most venues are like that.

And on the other hand, I think that DWD makes some valid points. You get booked at a place to play things that the most typical customers will want to hear. So clearly I need to update my repertoire, since the most familiar stuff I know is Simon and Garfunkel (and obviously, this is not bar music). I've been looking around for likely suspects to add to a setlist, but the fact is, a lot of this stuff is pretty boring. I mean, one song that seems to be a near-requirement is "Wonderwall" by Oasis, and it's just a lousy song. On the other hand, stuff like the usual Tom Petty ("Free Fallin'", "Last Dance") isn't so bad. I was also recently reminded of how much time and effort the Beatles put into their arrangements compared to a lot of stuff that's come out in the past 20 years. So there is certainly bar music that ISN'T boring - it's just not stuff I customarily listen to, so I have a lot of catching up to do.

This doesn't stop me from lamenting the current taste in music, but we are all traditionalists here and this is itself a long-standing tradition. :)

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 10:22 AM

If you do Irish themed pubs you can get away with slipping some "folk" into the mix - even Simon and Garfunkle if it's a quiet night. You will have to do things like Whiskey in the Jar, Wild Rover, Wild Colonial Boy, Molly Malone, etc. as well. But even though those songs are overdone, there're not bad songs.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 02:34 PM

The bar entertainer isn't really even there to get the attention of the audience--if the audience doesn't want to pay attention, the entertainer has to find a way to play in the background.If the audience wants to sing, well, the entertainer has to do that.
Playing in bars is a job, and, if you need to work, you find a way to do your job. If you don't need the work, you find some other way to spend your time.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: JeremyC
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:35 PM

I have another, kind of related question: The other night, I was playing at a cafe/bar/restaurant...relaxed atmosphere where you can order dinner or have a glass of wine, that kind of place. It was very lightly populated, and sitting right in front of me was a table of very loud people who were paying no attention to me whatsoever. Now, the attention thing is fine - I don't begrudge anyone the option to ignore me. What kept throwing me off was the extra noise. If I played a ballad or something similar, I was off my game, and if I tried something uptempo and louder, I felt like I was competing with them in volume; they actually seemed to get louder if I did.

I know this is a common situation, yet it never fails to mess up my concentration, even on things I should be able to play in my sleep. How do the rest of you deal with this kind of thing in your chosen venues?

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: foggers
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:05 PM

Jeremy - I have come to the conclusion that I am just not made of the right stuff to do bar/pub gigs, as the scenario you describe is just too depressingly distracting and affects my concentration and performance far too much. I guess if I really needed the work I would have to develop a way to screen out loud people, (practising self hypnosis? Ear plugs?)

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:24 PM

Jeremy,
I just went through the exact same thing friday of last week. Not doing anymore of them. Sometime I get people clapping and listening. Too often now there is a group of very loud talkers and I just don't want to try and compete

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:30 PM

Michael Harrison wrote on 22 Jul 09:
Could it have been the funny gal named Rusty Warren? She did a series of lp's with variations on the title, "Knockers Up!"

The YouTube video that linked to has been removed due to terms of service violation. Got another source for it?

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:52 PM

I'm afraid it just goes with the territory. Playing bars and pubs, and even coffeehouses - places where food and drink are being served and talking is permitted, is difficult. What I've done when I find myself in that situation is just soldier on as best I can, trying to concentrate on the music and tune out the rowdy group. It's hard, but then again with that much racket if you make a mistake nobody will really notice, so sometimes I use it as practice time to play songs I'm working on but haven't quite polished. If there's lots of noise it's going to be virtually impossible to get through to other people in the audience who might enjoy what you are doing, if they could hear it. It's the down side of working that type of venue, and it really can be difficult. But then there are good times when you're able to get a big part of the audience listening and responding to the music. Our trio managed to do that at our last bar gig, and it was fun. It's much easier to do that when you're on stage with other musicians - hard if you're solo. Good luck!

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: GUEST,Peadar (formerly) of Portsmouth
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:26 PM

I think your experience the other night actually explains one of your original questions.

I've never understood why people will sit close to the stage when they have no visible interest in the performance, especially if they'd have more room and greater privacy further away. I'm convinced there's an unconscious desire to be "near the action" -- whatever that action is -- which is something bar managers recognize. So bar managers are just trying to create some/any kind of action when they book live music.

For what it's worth: When we have a table of talkers like you had the other night, I usually try to get them talking to me. I usually ask some kind of question to them -- How's the meal? How's it sound? Anything you want to hear? Want to hear a joke?

It doesn't always work, but at least they have to acknowledge your presence...and sometimes that's enough for them to tone it down. (It's kind of like the greeter at Walmart...they don't really care that you're there, but studies prove it helps deter shoplifting because someone has said "I see you" to the potential thief.)

And, when it DOES work and you can engage them, you can turn potential headaches into a drunken chorus who are at least on your side.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: billhudson
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 10:35 AM

My Two Cents,
As have been reading the post here it is nice to know I am not alone in a horror
stories one seems to pile up as the years go on in playing in bars, misery loves company they say. Kind of like the gig from hell post.
But getting to your question as to playing in bars, well us musicians are there for one reason, in the eyes of the bar owner at least, that is to sell drinks. If you don't they do not call you back and if the resister adds up at the end of the night, then they do call you back.
I tested this theory one day when I did not care to get the gig or not. I look right at this guy who was in charge of the music and told him, "bla,bla,bla, you have heard it all before, I can sell drinks". His eyes were wide open and he had a big grin on his face and I got the gig. Funny as hell, the guy did not know or hear my music but I got that gig., kind of shows you where you stand in the food chain in the bar business.
That being said, I have met 3 different executive producers in bars who want to help me with my music in a bar. So you never know who is listening. My take on it is T.O.S. time,on,stage everything else is bull, does not matter if you have a web site, and even a bus and all the frills. If you do not deliver in stage, well what's the point? So in a way you don't have to worry what they say out there. Give it your best and you might be surprised but you have to keep at it and at times fall flat on your face.
When I was young I use to drive Pete Seeger to gigs sometimes. He use to really put on the miles and would be beat and would ask me if I could drive him to a gig. I could never say no and I learned a lot just watching him work a crowd, real showmen, he did not waste a second and that is a good lessen.
If anyone out there has done a gig at a ground round then they know a hell, I mean a real hell. Lord knows how many TV's are on, the radio is on, some folks singing happy birthday and then there you are singing to maybe no one but the money was good so you did the gig, hell.
But in a way, a bar is a good way for a paid practice. Or so many years ago when I was hitch-hiking and I played on the streets where ever I was. Traveled with carnies and played in all kinds of situations. That too was good school, not easy at all but you do learn how to get folks attention, which is why you are there, to entertain someone.
Still Pickin'
B.H.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: JeremyC
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:26 PM

Great ideas, guys, thanks! As a long-time introvert, it never occurred to me to try to talk to the offending table, but it seems like that could work. It's really distracting and demoralizing to be out there performing (not easy for me in any case) and competing in volume with a loud table. Practicing songs sounds like a good approach, too.

Peadar, your idea makes a lot of sense. Maybe if I look at it as simply providing "something going on" as opposed to a performance to be listened to, it'll make it somewhat more palatable, or at least less mystifying.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:38 PM

I think a heckler is one person you can get the crowd going for you if you can handle it.
Once I had a good crowd at a bar and all was well until these two airborne guys came in with this one girl. Of course they keep getting louder and louder. The way I got these guys to settle down was not in a loud voice but a very soft voice said, "behave yourself", right in the middle of a song. They both stopped dead and looked like deer in the headlights thing. Then they got loud again after a while and I said the same thing and it worked. So you could say they were apart of the act.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:59 PM

Maybe others will remember some more of Rick's comments on bar music.

One practical bit of advice Rick had was, have something handy to jam the one-arm-bandit - chewing gum, super-glue...
............

Isn't one of the functions of having live music in such settings as a way of drowning out the kind of loudmouths JeremyC mentioned? And the air-conditioning. What it sounds like is secondary.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: skarpi
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 06:28 AM

leave your ego at home ?
is it about your ego ? I think not .

I play only Irish, Scottish Icelandic ,and music from Norway
english and other Folk music , and I have played in a bar
where there is pther things goin on noisy place realy ,

and I at the first time felt like noone was listen , and when the
we messured the loudness it over 120 Dcb.

I have stopped playing at bars that have tv on at the same time
and its not about the ego .

I love to perform to people who wants to listen to folk music and sing along with it , and enjoy music, them self and me and my band .

sorry but thats just me ,
I have not same years of playin like Seamus and Mary , but
this what I feel about this matter .

Good luck in the future .
all the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: JeremyC
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 10:35 AM

Well, my most recent gig was yet another fiasco. The owner of the cafe expected me to magically bring in tons of business after engaging me for three weekends at $50/night+two meals. The final night, there were nine people in total, two of whom came specifically to see me, and I made $10 in tips. I was, I learned, competing with the high school Christmas pageant (small town). The owner lit out just as I started my last song, leaving the staff to stiff me on one of the meals and the chef to tell me he didn't want me to come back. What's great is that I gave him several opportunities to let me know, since I was expecting this after getting an idea of his unrealistic expectations (I was to bring a crowd of "family and friends" - family is 2,500 miles away and friends are mostly working musicians with gigs) every single night. Instead of telling me, he avoided me the entire night and left the chef to do his dirty work. At least I got the $50, though. And the customers who were there all seemed to enjoy themselves.

So, I've been reading with interest other people's experiences in bars and pubs - what kinds of setlists do you guys do, and in what kinds of venues? I have a weird repertoire, and obviously I haven't found the right kind of place for it.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: Willie-O
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 11:07 AM

Ah, the old change-the-deal scam. (I have met a lot of managers who feel that they're not doing their duty if they don't screw you out of five or ten bucks somehow. These are always the venues where the payment is marginal at best.) Hasn't happened to me recently, but since most gigs are arranged by email, I always spell out the payment & hospitality agreed on, and ask the mgr to reply, then I print it out and bring it (even if they don't reply), cause thats a contract. Which can be useful both to avoid the five-dollar screwover, and the legitimate confusion that the closing staff don't always know what your deal is.   

In this day and age, though, you were lucky to get three weekends in a row at the same place. Except that it suggests they don't have the knowledge to book a rotating roster of players to keep the audience interested...then they wonder why it's quiet after three weeks and blame you!

You shouldn't think of these as "fiascos"--unless you don't get paid--you're learning something new every week!

W-O

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 11:16 AM

If you don't already have a fan base (friends, family or people who've seen you at other venues and will turn up based on your mailing list) you would need more than three weekends to establish a following.   Is it a 'theme' pub (Irish or Celtic) or just a generic type place? Do they have other live music, and if so do those acts seem to bring people in? Give us an example of your repertoire. Definitely you need to have a fair number of songs everybody knows. The owner treated you crappily - he could have just nicely said he didn't think it was working out, or something like that.

My trio usually does Irish pubs. We are all three members of the local Irish American Society, so a fair number of them turn up to see us. Also I run a separate folk concert series, and therefore have access to that mailing list. We do the usual pub songs which is what our audiences enjoy and expect - Whiskey in the Jar, Wild Rover, and throw in some lesser known ones as well, but most of the music is lively. Occasionally I have a chance to do a gig where I can get away with what I really like to do, which is ballads - but that has to be a coffee house type of place. I've been gigging around here for close to 10 years, so there are some folks who will turn up.

There are some places, however, that just aren't a good 'fit' and we've had plenty of those fiascos. If it's a young crowd that wants rock and roll, and a trio of fifty something's starts playing diddly dee Irish music, it doesn't tend to go over well no matter what.

Oh and I've also run up against the scenario of competing events - not much you can do about that.

If the people there seemed to be enjoying themselves that's good! We worked one place where we did pull people in - in the beginning, but the food and service were so poor that after a couple of times they didn't come back. That place eventually closed. Again - not much you can do there!

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: JeremyC
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 01:22 PM

Willie-O: You're right, at least I did get the cash and tips. Could have been much worse. The first weekend there, the closing staff didn't know I hadn't already been paid and closed the register without giving me any money. I was able to recover it the following weekend, though.

Really, every time I perform, I learn a lot about performing. I don't get that opportunity much, as a sometimes-working musician, and my natural personality is introverted and shy, so I have a hard time wanting to do anything besides just get up and play guitar. I'd rather play guitar than talk to people - when I played last summer at a winery, some people who were there the entire evening commented on how I played really long sets and took short breaks in between. It's really hard for me to work a crowd or even make eye contact, much less actually talk to anyone. And I'm learning how to do that. So next time will be better, I hope.

Maryrrf: It's just a generic kind of place. In fact, it's mostly a lunch cafe, and it's only recent that the owner got a liquor license and started serving dinner. They do a Thursday night singalong that's well attended, where there's a pianist who performs for a bit and then passes out sheets for old tin pan alley chestnuts. Maybe he expected something equivalent from me, but I can't imagine why - he's seen me play before and knew what kind of thing I did.

I try not to play too many obscure songs, and I try to make sure I have enough uptempo stuff. Let's see, the last time I played, I did "One Meatball," a raggish version of "Puff the Magic Dragon," a country blues arrangement of "Blue Eyes Cryin' In The Rain" followed by an approximation of Blind Blake's "West Coast Blues" (for some reason they make a good segue), Scarborough Fair, Loch Lomond, a dropped D arrangement of "Little Drummer Boy" and a few other Christmas songs. I play a lot of Paul Simon/Simon and Garfunkel, some Townes Van Zandt (including, obviously, "Pancho and Lefty"), and "Don't Think Twice" plus a few other Dylan songs if I'm in the mood for that. If there are kids there, I play "They're Burnin' Down the House I was Brung Up In," which for some reason is a consistent hit with them (I don't know why) and "The Fox," and maybe "This Land Is Your Land" or anything else I can think of that might appeal to them. I have a really hard time classifying my repertoire, since it includes folk ballad rearrangements of pop songs (e.g. Friday I'm In Love), traditional stuff, country blues (a la Blind Blake, Roy Book Binder, and Rev. Gary Davis), a Joe Hill song or two, and some 70s singer-songwriters like Townes, John Denver, and Paul Simon, plus a touch of Willie Nelson, Warren Zevon, and other random things that just haven't come to mind at the moment.

Maybe there's still too much slow stuff in my repertoire. The bar experience I posted about when I started this thread involved the owner complaining about that, but I also got the impression that he wanted me to be a Rolling Stones/Doobie Brothers/Tom Petty/etc. jukebox, and that's just not what I play (well, I do play "As Tears Go By," but you don't identify that with the Stones so much). I don't know what the problem is, or how to even market myself to avoid this kind of thing in the future.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 09:33 PM

Jeremy, for a 'generic' cafe type place that sounds like a good set list - maybe it's the place, and not you. Venues have their own 'ambience' and sometimes a surly owner is a reflection of the general atmosphere of the place. Keep working on the eye contact, talking to the audience, etc. It's very important. Keep in mind that any kind of venue where there's eating, talking and especially drinking is probably going to be difficult. Don't get discouraged.

I used to perform solo a lot, but now for pubs and restaurants I have a banjo player and a fiddler that I work with. It is MUCH easier to keep the audience's attention with a couple of other people up on stage. The music is usually fuller, and you can banter with each other and bounce jokes off one another - and that sometimes helps to get the audience interested. Solo work in pubs is hard!