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BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?

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Subject: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 04:26 PM

Thoughts, anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:11 PM

Unfettered immigration?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:13 PM

Some elements of protest vote but mainly because a heck of a lot of people were pissed off by the venal nature of the mainstream parties so they stayed at home and gave the elections to the dedicated fascists of the BNP; who have been planning for years and just waiting for such an opportunity.

Take the two EU seats - Nazi Nick in NW England polled 8% of the vote and Andrew Brons in Humberside got 9.6% of the vote. Hardly a convincing electoral smash is it?

In Humberside the labour vote was 56% down on 2004 levels. The stay-at-home factor. Well done UK voters!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:31 PM

So predictable, Rig.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:15 PM

In the North West, the BNP vote fell from 134,959 at the 2004 European election to 132,094 this year.

In Yorkshire and the Humber, its vote fell from 126,538 in 2004 to 120,139.

Obviously, any vote is one vote too many, but the election of Griffin and Brons is more about the collapse of the Labour vote than any massive surge towards fascism.

To quote from the socialist press, "The BNP has exploited concerns over unemployment, targeting fear and anger at migrants by standing on a platform of defending "British jobs". They have also benefited from the climate of racism against Muslims and migrant workers that New Labour has helped to whip up, as well as from the disillusionment with mainstream politics caused by the MPs' expenses scandal."

What is growing far faster than support for the BNP right now is support for the anti fascist alliances such as Unite Against Fascism...


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:30 PM

Howzat! Killer blow, knocked for 6 by spleeny! Cheers!

Spleeeeeeen Cringe. God, I love that name!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:36 PM

Very good point SC and one I shall remember. So, in answer to the question - They haven't! The vote for the BNP has in fact decreased. It is a complete breakdown or trust in all the mainsteam parties that has enabled the extremists to gain power. Should be a wake up call to everyone but I doubt that the nature of British politics will change much because of it.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:37 PM

And Royston, you described yourself as a libertarian on another thread (Rather than a small town in Hertfordshire...), so a big friendly YOWSAH! back to you. Keep the black flag flying!

¡No Pasarán!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,MJ
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:39 PM

You lot don't half talk a load of rubbish.

Of course the actual votes were down for the BNP. I think you'll find that the actual votes were down for most parties as less people bothered to vote.

I'm no BNP supporter, but don't just crow about incomplete facts - list totals for all the parties and give a far more rounded view instead of trying to mislead people in the same way that you all keep telling us that the BNP do.

Hello we're not total imbeciles.

MJ


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:54 PM

When has anyone said otherwise MJ?

You are quite right about the last point though.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:08 PM

MJ, the BNP thought that votes going down for mainstream parties would translate into more votes for them. Despite the daily news stories about politicians from the major parties with their noses in the trough it clearly didn't happen. We need to nail the myth that the nazi vote is up.

And for the record, I'm not interested in the "rounded" view. I'm interested in sending the BNP back to whatever stone they crawled out from under, because I don't believe there is a place for an openly racist, fascist party in a modern democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:09 PM

Oh don't be such a dullard MJ.

SC has given you the 2004/2009 absolute numbers for the BNP vote in Yorks./Humber

The labour comparison is 413,213 (2004) against 230,009 (2009)

Tories are 387,369 / 299,802

Lib dems are 244,607 / 161,552

The fall in absolute numbers in the BNP vote is a little cause for celebration. What is really worth celebrating is that the only reason the vile scum got their seats is because of the above-detailed collapse in the mainstream vote. The stay-at-home effect.

If you want to do some work and bring some reasoned, referenced arguments to the table then go ahead. *We* are not total imbeciles.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:01 PM

The BNP party leader (Nick Gifford? Grifford?) has been elected. HIS seat is lucrative and secure for a bit. Does anyone really think he gives a damn about the rank and file now? Dream on.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:05 PM

GRIFFIN

--that's it--GRIFFIN.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:42 PM

I think that there are reasons for the relative firmness in the BNP vote that are not within the remit of FaF. The purpose of FaF although generally to oppose fascism and hence the BNP is more specifically to prevent fascists and so the BNP from taking "ownership" (ghastly modern misuse of that word) of traditional folk arts in England and/or the UK. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the (absolute or relative) rise in the BNP vote which is a much broader question.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:50 PM

I do not know about figures or names but what is clearly happening is that the main parties have bullshitted and lied and robbed so much over the years that folk are not voting for them anymore and you cant wonder at it? folk are fed up.

Clearly there is a national no confidence in the main political parties I wont and have not voted for any of them in years?

And before any one goes off spouting about "If you do not vote you do not have a say?

Well clearly that is Bollocks.
I put it to you.
Non voters say a hell of a lot.

BMP have been waiting for this non vote melt down for years..

Do not blame the voter blame the main parties themselves,
There is a national no confidence in the main political parties. BIG TIME.And its there own sodding fault.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:54 PM

You are of course correct. BUT, that doesn't solve the problem.

I am old enough to have been voting in Canada for four decades. I still have never missed voting even when the choices have been beneath contempt. I simply mark my ballot with, ""You have GOT to be kidding."


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 09:10 PM

Hi Peace.
Re Beneath contempt? Fimilarality breeds comtempt nationally.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 09:58 PM

"So predictable, Rig."

                And so factual!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 03:40 AM

Whilst not voting is clearly better than voting for the BNP, you can't ignore voter apathy as part of the reason for the fact that the fascists have two seats. I'll say it one more time: their vote hasn't gone up, it's gone down. Problem is, people stayed away from the elections in droves, possibly because they don't see the Euro-elections as important, possibly because they don't give a shit and possibly because they swallowed the media-led, populist, anti-politician frenzy the Telegraph started just in time for the elections. Yes, some politicians have their snouts in the trough, but what's new? The Lib Dems don't, particularly, and the Greens certainly don't. People could have voted for them rather than staying on the sofa glued to Big Brother.

There are real issues around which to make a decision about who to vote for rather than the side shows about expenses: Labour's increased health and education spending over the past twelve years (good!) or Labour's dodgy overseas adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan (bad!)... just two examples for starters. On some levels, the Telegraph campaign is just another example of dumbed down celebrity culture where someone's duck island becomes more important that the policies of his party. It's the latter, not the former, that will for better or worse impact on your life...

So by all means withhold you vote, but at least do it for a decent reason. And at least show some enthusiasm and commitment by going to the polling station and spoiling your ballot card rather than passively staying away.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 03:47 AM

P-l-C

Absolutely spot on mate. Said it before, I'll say it again...

Real Political Parties:

* Start talking sensibly about immigration, how low it actually is and the need for it to continue.

* Build more social housing

* Build more hospitals

* Build more schools

And the BNP will wither away.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 03:48 AM

No, rig, no party proposes unfettered immigration. I have a good friend who used to sit as a judge (maybe still does) in the immigration appeal tribunal and she used to refuse shedloads of immigration appeals.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:00 AM

And Rig, don't come here claiming your wishful thinking as "Factual" when the election numbers have been posted here in *factual* proof that the number of BNP voters IN A SEAT THEY WON *fell* slightly. The only reason they WON is because their SHARE of the vote increased because the vote for the main parties dropped off the edge of a cliff.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:42 AM

The new FaF thread seems to be Woody Guthries birthday?! ;-)

Eh oh: in any case I'm guessing that *this* is actually the new FaF thread, so here are pertinent links before the other one falls off the board:

FaF Facebook

FaF MySpace

FaF Webpage (work in progress)


Also a cut & paste (begging his indulgence) of one of Roystons most recent posts made near the end of the old one, in response to a previous request for links to proof of some of the stated objections to the BNP:

"Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston - PM
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 02:10 PM

fairplay, sorry old chap. You may have a point. Is there another fascist political party in the UK? One that I missed? Because if there is then I will organise against that also.

The BNP is not a normal political party. It aims to use and subvert the democratic process in order to secure power; after which it will enact its inhumane, anti-democratic policies.

Nazi Nick has been caught on camera (or has blatantly bragged to the watching media) that BNP policy is geared at sowing discontent and disaffection amongst poor white folk to whip up racial discord and hatred. His policy is - according to him - to stop talking about the true end-game of BNP policy, until they have secured power or sufficient momentum in public opinion, so that their true agenda is either more "acceptable" or can be implemented forcibly.

PROOF HERE
- Nazi Nick addressing a group of American white-supremacists in New Orleans arranged by the former KKK leader David Duke.

Play the video, listen to Nazi Nick's own words.

"BNP is not about selling out its ideas, which are your ideas too [the KKK]...but we will use the saleable words: 'freedom', 'identity', 'security', 'democracy'...nobody can criticise them, nobody can attack you for those, they are saleable. Perhaps one day, once by being rather more subtle we've got ourselves in a position where we control the British broadcast media...people may change their mind and say 'every last one of them must go'...but if you hold that out as your aim to start with you'll get absolutely nowhere. So instead of talking about racial purity we talk about 'racial identity'"

What say you to that, fairplay?"

As you were guys.. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 06:07 AM

Yes, this is the new FaF thread. Joe closed the old one and immediately BNP clones were crowing on FaF.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 06:38 AM

One reason for the increasing electoral success of the BNP has been the rising and open racism of ta large section of the mainstream press which has dripped on an almost weekly basis a bunch of anti immigrant,anti refugee and Islamophobic stories and articles for years.
In addition Labour politicians have also fed the racist feeding frenzy with all kinds of dangerous smears and attacks.
This has allowed the BNP to appear to be tucked in nicely with what passes as mainstream political opinion.
As anti racists we should make no concessions to the thugs of the BNP but also the widespread racism being pumped out by newspapers and politicians alike.
Ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 06:58 AM

I'm sorry that the Faf thread was closed as, apart from the usual thread drift, its title did indicate that it was the appropiate place to look for (or post) information about any forth coming concerts, events etc especially for those people not on Facebook or myspace

Unfortunately, as any regular poster to the forum knows, starting another (related) thread is the most likely way of getting the older one closed down :(

Good luck with the Web site


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,George Davis
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:24 AM

THREE BNP THREADS IS TOO MUCH, PLEASE CLOSE TWO OF THEM.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:33 AM

Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,George Davis
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:38 AM

Because Bruce starts swearing !!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:39 AM

Because George Davis is a BNP supporter and he hates to see the BNP getting its ass kicked by folks who post here. That's why.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:39 AM

"Hello we're not total imbeciles."

Unless you voted BNP, of course.

A large proportion of the vote for Brons came from the major connurbation in the area - Hull, which has to be one of the most racist cities in England.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:41 AM

Hey George: are you the poof wot 'angs with Fairplay?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:43 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,George Davis - PM
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:38 AM

Because Bruce starts swearing !!"

Cursing, not swearing.

So, 'ow's it, cupcake?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:53 AM

If Nick Griffiths is the head of the BNP, is it possible that George Davis is the anal sphincter?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM

Oh, he'll have plenty of friends then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 09:35 AM

I think what is somewhat disappointing about the FaF thread in particular being closed, is that of all three current BNP related discussions, the FaF thread was the ONLY thread which very *specifically pertains to Folk Music*. Yes there was substantial thread drift, but the organisation itself is one for folk enthusiasts wishing to take demonstrate their discomfort at traditional British Folk Music and Arts, being currently targeted by the BNP in particular and utilised for far-right, nationalistic, and racist propaganda.

While some of those across the pond, might think we're creating a big old storm in a teacup about all this, considering the historical precedent for similar strategies by the Nazi's during WWII and the current increase of interest in and apparent support for far-right politics in the UK (especially amid a time of economic trouble), this issue is of current and key importance to British Folk enthusiasts. As such, whatever threads concerning associated topics happen to be current, I'll try to make sure links to FaF sites are present, for any interested parties.

Otherwise there does seem to be something of a deluge of associated threads currently, which is why I can understand Joe's decision to close one (albeit with some chagrin, that it happened to be the only one that was specifically pertinent to this board and its membership).

I expect this thread will be closed, but I hope that if a later thread is initiated with further updates about FaF Folk Musical events, that it will be posted (and indeed permitted to remain) Above the Line, where other music threads are posted, and indeed where most of the relevent British membership tend to congregate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 10:02 AM

I posted my comment before reading Crow Sister's 23 Jul 09 - 09:35 AM post.

In the hope that this thread is not closed, here are the links to FaF pages:

Folk Against Fascism Facebook

Folk Against Fascism MySpace

Folk Against Fascism website (work in progress)


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 10:06 AM

Apologies to non-British members of FaF, and other interested parties (including Azizi & Peace there). I think my last post was clearly in error presuming that FaF was only of interest interest to British folk enthusiasts! A pretty daft oversight on my part, seeing the contributions from non-British members of Mudcat on the prior FaF thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 10:42 AM

Hey, Crow Sister, NO apology necessary.

The BNP will and do grab anything they think will be useful to them. The one saving grace is that the UK folks are much too smart to fall for their party line. Yes, some will. It's a given that every society has its share of idiots. The fact that the BNP gets any support at all will attest to that. However, the BNP cannot take your music from you. And since y'all ain't gonna let 'em, they will continue to look like the scum they are: liars, thugs, bums and just plain-old-garden-variety Nazis and racists.

It's people like you, CS, who will ensure that they don't win. Their votes are dropping, and so is their popularity. Keep up the good work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 12:17 PM

Fascism. Fascism. FaScism. Got it.   :0)

Here you go, George...your leader....

"Nazi Scum Off Our Streets" - Youtube


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 12:33 PM

Lizzie, although I support your intentions and I also see that that particular footage might represent *a proportion* of perhaps rightfully angered rejection of BNP policies, unfortunately IMO it's not the right way to *communicate the threat BNP policies truly imply for this country*.

Because I feel it is neither helpful to democratic process, or indeed increasing broader awareness of the BNP's *true* agenda (as illustrated in the: Nick Griffin teaching the KKK about 'how to sound more nice for the public' speech, link), I will never myself participate in egg-throwing or other similar superficial strategies intended to publicly humiliate (and thus unfortunately effectively MARTYR) BNP representatives or their supporters.

I'd far rather see intelligent breakdown of BNP propeganda. That is what's needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 01:05 PM

I agree with Crow Sister.

I removed the gloating over the egging of Nick Griffin from the facebook FAF page, because it's not something that we, as a group, would want to be associated with, for all of the reasons cited above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 01:09 PM

Well, there are times when personally, I think he deserves far more than an egg coming his way, but...that's just me.

I'm afraid I don't deal very well, or politely, with folks who want to sink the boats of immigrants and let them cling to a life-raft.

I mean...this man, imo, is seriously nuts! But...he's not as nutty as those who've voted for him.


Nick Griffin 'Sinking The Boats' - Youtube

You see, it's all linked up with Dumbing Down, isn't it. People no longer think deeply, or think for themselves, they've become apathetic automatons, who see a 10 second clip and think "Cor, that bloke's talkin' sense, ain't he. I fink we'll vote for 'im, Dolores!"

What fooks me off the most about them, apart from their obvious hatred of anyone who's not 'them'...is that they have the audacity to stand in front of the flag my Dad fought for, a flag that stands for freedom, democracy and fairness.

These scumbags should be flying Hitler's flag, not ours.

And WHO is this twit?

The Reverend Robert West

He's saying that the BNP is pretty much saying what the Bible says, that we should live as 'nations'......

??????????

Gawd, if EVER there was a man who could make God shudder in his shoes, I think this is the man who could do it!

Yeesh!

We are a nation. We are ONE nation, that's the whole point! We're all the same bloomin' species! (apart from Nick Griffin of course, who's one on his own, imho, naturally)


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 01:12 PM

Mick Griffiths is different. Has anyone else noticed he's gained about two and a half stone since he got elected? Must be the beer ya figure?


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 01:59 PM

Interesting that Bible based idea - that I first met in an Odinist book, possibly also believing in the making of the earth from a dead giant's bits and pieces.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:17 PM

Some interesting stuff there Lizzie!

What is this: "Babel thesis of one undifferentiated mass" that I hear speak of?
I want to hear MORE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:18 PM

This 'Babel Thesis' Sounds uber "Love thy Neighbour" if you ask me? Good Christian stuff then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:21 PM

Babel pretty much describes the BNP, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:33 PM

The "Reverend" Robert West

"Ekklesia, the Christian think-tank has been doing some digging into the status of Robert West.

Jonathan Bartley, writing on Ekklesia's blog, can find no church that will admit that it ordained West, or that he is a member. Bartley does, however, quote the Apostolic Church (that were pointed at previously by the Times as the religious home of West) denying that they have any knowledge of West.

A spokesperson of the Apostolic Church said:
"If he were an active member of the Church his views would not be accepted by the Church and disciplinary action would be undertaken by the Church which strongly distances itself from views such as these."

However, this seems a little disingenous of the Apostolic Church, as West is no longer 'active' in the Apostolic Church.

Robert West was first outed as a BNP member in the famous leak of the BNP membership leak of 2008, where he was clearly listed as an Apostolic Church clergyman.

Contacted by The Times (November 20th, 2008), West was defiant - and still seemingly a clergyman in the Apostolic Church:

"At the Apostolic Church in Holbeach, Lincolnshire, the Rev Robert West was unrepentant.

'I am a member of the BNP since May 2006,' he said. 'That's public knowledge. God has divided the nations for their own good. Every race needs their space. But I get on with the ethnic minorities,' he insisted. 'I love them really.'"

Today the "Reverend" Robert West seems to have no current connection to any Christian denomination apart from the Christian Council of Britain, which he co-founded with the BNP.

Various Christian organisations have denounced the Christian Council of Britain, whilst the BNP's religious tactics have been reported in the Christian press. Back in December 2008, the General Synod of the Church of England voted to ban clergy from joining the BNP.

The thinktank Ekklesia has pointed out that churches need to disassociate themselves from the "Christian nation" rhetoric which the BNP exploits.

A few days ago the Methodist Church has become the first major denomination in the UK to ban all its members from joining the British National Party."

His credentials seem as robust as those of former BNP press spokesman "Dr Phil Edwards" (real name Stuart Russell).


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM

The BNP people DO seem to have difficulty with their own names.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM

Sory, I forgot to post the Youtube video that goes with the link to Robert West's letter, which I posted above.


Here he is:

Rev. Robert West on Youtube

God Help Us All, eh?

Strangely, they didn't let my 'comment' go on to their page yesterday. I can't think why. ;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Royston
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 03:12 PM

Forgive me, I haven't listened to the "Reverend's" stuff about Babel but I wanted to chip in about the reference to him arguing that God made us nations for own good. I infer from this that he argues God determined that we should stay apart for our own good.

You see some Christian theological reasoning argues that the "Babel" incident was God acting to stop a juvenile humanity over-reaching itself by striving for knowledge it had not necessarily earned, or was not ready for. So, some say, "Babel" sent humans into nations and tribes with barriers (at least) of language so that they would have to find a way back to unity and mutual understanding before being entitled to, or earning, the knowledge of the divine that had been the objective of the tower-builders.

So it follows that some Christians believe that the separation of nations and tribes is a human condition which must be overcome in order for enlightenment to occur.

This rings with Islamic beliefs where (to a Muslim) God has said most plainly in the Qur'an that he has made humans into tribes and nations "that you might come to know each other".

All of which flies in the face of Nazi Nick and his fascist friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM

"Forgive me, I haven't listened to the "Reverend's" stuff about Babel"

I wuz just being tongue in cheek there R, :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:16 PM

I got it now. The 'nation' he's talking about refers to the Scots. Same damned reason the Romans built the wall. My ancestors used to go south to plunder women, kill sheep and rape the men. They never have forgiven us. Buncha sissies.

So, is this 'Reverend' the new Mick Griffith? Inquiring minds . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:58 PM

More Robert West (I've dropped the Reverend bit)


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 05:15 PM

Loving all the comments concerning our pal Mike Geffin and his portly portentous pretensions.


Why has the number of BNP votes gone up ...

... it hasn't ...

.. why has it gone down ...

who cares.

probably because mook goofy is losing his touch with the ladies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 05:20 PM

Peace, are you sure you have that the right way round?


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 05:41 PM

I've had 4 (Yes 4!) PMs to my facebook account today. 2 From Richard Bridge(sic)...Yes I know it's not you Richard!
One from the esteemed George Davies!
And one from Royston Rifleman.
They've obviously all done a lot of digging into my musical history...Shame they got it so wrong...I would have loved to have been a member of Pyewackett...Sadly I was just their occasional sound man!
The Eric logo was the White Horse of Uffington, not Effenham (wherever tha may be!)
I'm so looking forward to the next message from these strange people!
I don't get angry...I just laugh at their stupidity...Open Mouths, insert feet!
Toodle Pip all Ralphie


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 07:54 PM

While the original "Folk Against Facism" thread specifically pertained to folk music, the last folk music post in the old thread, was posted well over a month ago. In the last two weeks, it had denigrated to petty squabbling and sloganeering that had nothing to do with music, so it was moved to the non-music section and then closed when this thread was opened.

When there's more to discuss from a folk music perspective, then would be a good time to start a new thread. Until that happens, this existing BNP thread should suffice. There was no need to start TWO new BNP threads today. So, please use this thread for discussion about the BNP. If you wish to discuss thread closure, please contact me by personal message.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,George Davis
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:13 PM

Joe, It's an emotive subject which you handled sensitively. If anyone wants to read about the BNP there is already enough on the web about them, they even have their own website. If anyone wants to use four letter words or call people names head over there.

This site lost it's sparkle over the past few weeks due to BNP threads, I would dearly like to see everyone put it behind them and move on.

Come on, friendship is more important.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:21 PM

Well, it's an important subject, and Mudcatters have passionate feelings about it. We need to have an ongoing discussion of the BNP.

Still, it just doesn't work to have parallel threads running on the same subject. When I see people post a message in one thread, and then copy-paste the same message into another current thread, I know that there's a bit too much duplication.

But anyhow, let's go back to the discussion of the BNP.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 09:07 PM

"I would dearly like to see everyone put it behind them and move on."

When the second world war ended, the allied nations who fought against Nazism had exactly the same thought.

Lets leave this great evil behind us.

Sadly, it seems that it has refused to die and as a rsult we have had to learn to be ever vigilant.

Therefore, when the BNP no longer has reps in the european parliament, nor on local government, nor any other support whatsoever, and when Nazi Ideology has been eradicated so that it may no longer contaminate society with its poison, then we will be able to say that we have left it behind us.

Democracy is a precious luxury. It must be participated in to keep itself protected from ideologies that would otherwise cause its disintegration.

So George, in fact you have unwitingly hit the nail n the head.

We would love to put all this talk of the BNP far behind us.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 09:35 PM

For the record, my 23 Jul 09 - 10:02 AM comment found above was in reference to this post that I wrote:

thread.cfm?threadid=122461&messages=19#2685977 RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 09 - 02:57 AM

Real Ralphie, if you were to become a Mudcat member we could PM you and vice versa, and once we knew that you were you (so to speak) it would avoid the potential ambiguity of the often cloned Facebook identities and the public nature of open posts here.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Jul 09 - 06:49 AM

Lizzie Cornish. Re Robert West Youtube link.

During his tirade on above, this greaseball introduced the name of The Christian Council of Britain, as though it has some standing in the theological world.

I googled Christian Council of Britain. It's a front for the BNP.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Jul 09 - 07:23 AM

What wiki has to say -

"Taking its name directly in imitation of the Muslim Council of Britain, the Christian Council of Britain was set up by concerned British Christians of various denominations with assistance from members and supporters of the BNP in April 2006.

BNP web editor Steve Blake who runs an IT consultancy registered the URL christiancouncil.org.uk on behalf of the CCB and provided a basic template for the fledgling organisation's website.

The Observer reported on April 16, 2006 that Clive Potter, another member of the BNP was to be the president of the CCB.

Rev. Robert West, a former Conservative district councillor and a founding member of the Christian Council of Britain defected to the BNP in May 2006.

The CCB is opposed to female ordination and leadership and the ordination of gay men.
The Council believes that there is a 'godly importance of race and nation'

The Christian Council of Britain has been criticised by a number of mainstream British Christian organisations who claim that 'Christian belief is incompatible with any political party or philosophy that is based on hatred or treats people as inferior because of their race, beliefs or for any other reason' and argues against the CCB's theological views on separation of races."

A stement from the Methodist church spokesperson

"I am outraged that the BNP and its allies are using Christianity to further their agenda of segregation and division.
I think most Christians will be deeply affronted by this and want to speak out against such misguided extremism. We reaffirm our earlier statements that Christian belief is incompatible with any political party or philosophy that is based on hatred or treats people as inferior because of their race, beliefs or for any other reason

The CCB has claimed that the Bible justifies its support for the BNP's repatriation policy.
But the Revd Ken Howcroft, Coordinating Secretary for Conference and Communication, said "this was a way of interpreting scripture that was used to justify apartheid in South Africa, the banning of mixed-race marriages and the setting up of homelands. The South African Council of Churches condemned this interpretation, and some of the churches that did support this interpretation later formally repented.
In Galatians, Paul writes 'In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile,' and this makes it clear that there is no Christian basis for racial discrimination or separation."

A letter in my local newspaper


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Jul 09 - 07:31 AM

Well, well.....

Thank you, Fred.

The Christian Council of Britain - Wiki

Taken from there:

>>>Formation and association with the BNP

"Taking its name directly in imitation of the Muslim Council of Britain, the Christian Council of Britain was set up by concerned British Christians of various denominations with assistance from members and supporters of the BNP in April 2006. BNP web editor Steve Blake who runs an IT consultancy registered the URL christiancouncil.org.uk on behalf of the CCB and provided a basic template for the fledgling organisation's website.[4] The Observer reported on April 16, 2006 that Clive Potter, another member of the BNP was to be the president of the CCB.[5] Rev. Robert West, a former Conservative district councillor and a founding member of the Christian Council of Britain defected to the BNP in May 2006.[6]"<<<<


The Christian Council of Britain - their own site


So, is *anyone* allowed to wear a 'dog collar' and call themselves 'Reverend' then?


This programme shows how *easy* it is for people to be taken in...

The 'Loose Women' TV show discussing why the BNP have got their seats. - Youtube


And here is 'The Big Questions' debating the BNPs 'right to be heard' - with guest speakers, including BNP members and Benjamin Zephaniah:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Jul 09 - 08:24 AM

Robert West stood as the BNP candidate in yesterday's by election in Norwich after failing to get enough votes in the East Midlands to win a seat in the European Parliament last month.

The 53-year-old, said during campaigning

"We are taking a strong anti-immigration line. And we are against the issue of sovereignty to the European community.
I believe multi-culturalism is unnecessary and evil.

"I want the people of Norwich to follow this line and realise we have not been tough enough on immigration. I do not want anywhere in this country turning into the Middle East.

"This is Britain and I will fight to keep it that way."

http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=ENOnline&category=News&tBrand=ENOnline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED22%20Jun%202009%2018%3A13%3A41%3A730   
-local news report and photo

He polled 941 votes representing 2.74% of the total votes cast


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 11:33 AM

"I am outraged that the BNP and its allies are using Christianity to further their agenda of segregation and division."


            Isn't that what religion is all about?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 12:24 PM

"And before any one goes off spouting about "If you do not vote you do not have a say?

Well clearly that is Bollocks.
I put it to you.
Non voters say a hell of a lot." Pierre le Chapeau

Actually, 'Peter the Hat' non-voters say nothing whatsoever! If you don't vote you not only have no say but you also reveal yourself to be a lazy, ignorant fool. The ONLY chance that you have to alter things in this country is through the ballot box. The stupid Labour non-voters in the NW and Humberside let the BNP in and their equally stupid brothers and sisters in Norwich have just let the Tories in. A 'non-vote' is usually a vote for the Right. If you're too idle, apathetic and selfish to engage in the political process you will be to blame when the country slips further and further rightward. Not voting will merely create a 'power vacuum' which will be filled by some very unsavoury people.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:08 PM

Emma B. Re. your link to the news report on Robert West. Note the mysoginistic/chauvinistic manner in which he dismisses the idea of women working. His views are a virtual echo of third reich policy towards women.

"He polled 941 votes representing 2.74% of the total votes cast" It's pretty obvious that the BNP aren't gaining votes, and that their constitutional facade isn't impressing anyone. West's showing in Norwich in fact showed him to be nothing more than one of the monster raving loony fringe candidates.

This should be good news, indeed it is. However, it's only a matter of time before Griffin and Co realise they're not going to get anywhere via the democratic process. That I think is when they'll take the fight back out onto the streets.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:22 PM

Riginslinger says:
    Isn't that (segregation and division) what religion is all about?
It may be a bit off the topic, but I can't let this go by. Riginslinger, I think you're letting your bigotry show. There are plenty of religious people who are fundamentally opposed to segregation and division - so what you say is a cheap shot.

Racists have long used religion as a rationalization of their racism. For that matter, all sorts of oppressors have twisted religion to rationalize their oppression. But at its core, religious belief is altruistic, and is at its essence opposed to oppression. If the BPN uses religion, it is a perversion of religion.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 03:21 PM

Religion has been used as an excuse for many totalitarian groups. That isn't religion. That's fanatacism. Perversions ofered by people who wish to speak on behalf of God are many, but really they vary only in content, and then only slightly. We see this today with all ultra-orthodox groups, be they BNP, Jewish, Muslim, etc.

I am reminded of Dylan's

"God said to Abraham kill me a son
Abe said man you must be putting me on
God said no, Abe said what?
God said you can do anything you want Abe, but
The next time you see me coming you better run
God just pointed with his gun and said
That way down highway fifty-one"

Not believing in God is a help in this case.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:16 PM

"Riginslinger, I think you're letting your bigotry show."

          Not bigotry at all, just years and years of observation!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:22 PM

One disturbing thought occurs to me. The BNP may have gained more votes recently because people on this forum are bellyaching about them so much that it has greatly increased their public profile by gaining them much extra attention!

Be afraid. Be very afraid. They are about to take over your entire folk tradition. Check the back of every bodhran for those little swastika markings and prepare to fight them on the beaches, in the wardrobes, on the street, and in the loo!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:30 PM

So, Riginslinger, how is your generalization about religious people any different from the anti-immigrant generalizations coming from the BNP? When you make wide-reaching statements against the members of any group, where's the justice in that?

Certainly, what you say can apply to some religious people - and believe it or not, some non-religious people use those same tactics of segregation and division.

In opposing bigotry, we must be careful not to become bigots ourselves.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM

"One disturbing thought occurs to me. The BNP may have gained more votes recently because people on this forum are bellyaching about them so much that it has greatly increased their public profile by gaining them much extra attention!"

Ten bucks says that's bull, LH. People here stop posting and that ten bucks says "GUESTS" from the BNP come 'round and keep refreshing the thread. That kind of reasoning is waaaay beneath your abilities, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 06:31 PM

I was joking.

Anyway, there are a great many things that are beneath my abilities. Wrestling alligators, for example. I'm no good at all when it comes to that. Nor can I bench press 150 pounds or play the banjo half decently.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 06:35 PM

My apologies. Some idiot was thinking that way recently and I was concerned it was spreading.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 08:11 PM

"So, Riginslinger, how is your generalization about religious people any different from the anti-immigrant generalizations coming from the BNP?"

            I guess I wasn't thinking about religious people as much as religious dogma and institutions. I would agree, it's better to avoid generalizations.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:08 PM

I get frustrated with the institutions, too. Trouble is, it seems the same with every institution. It's the idiots who get the power. I think the world is divided into two kinds of people - those who believe in structure and doctrines and ideologies and rules, and those who believe in people and in common sense. You can guess what kind I class the BNP in. For them, ideology is all-important. People aren't.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:43 AM

Little Hawk. "One disturbing thought occurs to me. The BNP may have gained more votes recently because people on this forum are bellyaching about them so much that it has greatly increased their public profile by gaining them much extra attention!"

They haven't gained votes. That's the whole point. In the EU elections, the BNP vote actually declined. In the Norwich north by-election, their loony christian candidate polled less than 3% of the votes. This despite the fact that we're in a very bad recession, there is massive disenchantment with the centre parties, and there is a lot of very understandable concern about British jobs going to foreign workers.

All these are things which the far right has traditionally festered on. Yet the electorate continues to reject the BNP. Why? One obvious answer is that anti-fascists continue to expose the BNP for the nazi scum that they are.

(And just in case anyone misunderstands me, I don't buy into that argument about foreign workers destroying British jobs. Foreign workers generate jobs and they are an asset to the economy. One day, when the world has grown up a little, and national boundaries have been shown up for the shibboleths they really are, there will be peace in the world, and people will be able to move wherever they want to move.)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:47 AM

LH says he posted that remark as a joke, fyi.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:08 AM

Peace. Quite possibly. But don't forget that people are apt to accuse us of talking the problem up. If the election results are anything to go by, we're doing quite opposite.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:16 AM

I agree with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:21 AM

Of course, the BNP has learned well from Hitler's group. Tell the lie often enough and people start to accept it as fact. It would be neat to have the BNP membership and cross-reference the names to criminal records. And publish that, lots. I'm working on that now.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:04 AM

A party of convictions


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:15 AM

Peace. "Tell the lie often enough and people start to accept it as fact" From Polish air force pilots to the "truth" about the Stephen Lawrence murder, to holocaust denial, to massive distortions of just about everything it says in the Koran, to phoney biologists and phoney reverends, the BNP couldn't tell the truth if someone twisted its arm up its back. No, the world's heaviest tome isn't the Encyclopaedia Brittanica. It's the list of lies which the BNP has tried to foist on the British public.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:26 PM

The one truth in it all, however, is the larger the immigrant community becomes, the numbers of native Brits against them will grow. So time is on the side of the BNP.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:44 PM

You always get a reactionary backlash when there's a big influx of immigrants into a society. Look at what happened in North America when the Irish were pouring in during the potatoe famine. They were caricatured as apes in American newspapers, and were often beaten up and terrorized by "Native American" gangs, as shown in the movie "Gangs of New York". The Irish reacted by forming their own violent gangs.

And look at what's happening in the USA right now with concerns about the large numbers of Hispanics who are coming into the USA.

Large scale immigration always provides an opportunity for reactionaries and extremists to get the native population in a country stirred up against foreigners...for the usual simple reasons: they feel that their jobs and their culture are being threatened.

So, yes, as long as immigration levels to the UK stay high, the BNP will profit by getting more support from native Britons who are afraid of change.

****

The one thing that could cure all this divisive nonsense would be if:

- Economic advantages and social freedoms were fairly much equalized all around the globe...and then people wouldn't feel the pressing NEED to emigrate to other countries, would they?

They'd mostly be quite happy to stay where they were.

This, however, would require the human race to get way beyond their present state of self-aggrandizing and competitive awareness...needless to say. ;-)

I don't expect it to happen anytime soon. But that doesn't mean it can never happen. I think the ultimate destiny of this planet has to be a unified and prosperous human society....or a complete collapse of human civilization and a massive die-off of our species.

Either way, the planet will definitely survive, but we may not. I hope humanity makes the intelligent choice between those alternatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:46 PM

I still think the rabbits should be blamed.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:52 PM

For what? The missing "cawwots"?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 02:12 PM

Nope. For the UK's difficulties. And Canada's and the US's, et.al.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 02:40 PM

Okay...

But which rabbits?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:15 PM

Excuse me asking but has this thread been taken over by North Americans talking rubbish? Is this what you wanted to achieve by closing down the Folk Against Fascism thread, Joe?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:32 PM

Hey Rig

While we're on the subject of religion being responsible for division and killing etc ... a favourite drum for aethists to bang ...

... how many religious people died as a result of the imposition of an aetheist ideology in China during the cultural revolution and in the USSR during the purges?

As for your comments about immigrants and immigration, you are talking utter bollocks. In reality, places where there are large numbers of immigrants change culturallly and people get used to each other.

I grew up in Hong Kong and now I live in London, so I have been at the centre of the melting pot all my life.

In other words, I know what I'm talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:41 PM

It's not rubbish, Snail--except in your head. We SHOULD blame the rabbits. Why the rabbits? Good question. Why the immigrants?

You want to say what you want to say, Snail, then fuckin' do so. But quit your whinging. OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:54 PM

PS, Snail. ANY time we talk BNP we're talking rubbish. However, I will ask all Canucks to check with you before they post. Would that help?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:21 PM

Actually, this is an important topic (albeit based on a false premise) and I don't think it is being treated with the importance it deserves. Snail, I agree with you.

The fact that people as vile and loathsome as the BNP can get any sort of electoral seat indicates a deep problem with our democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:34 PM

Richard, the question IS important. However, we really don't need to search so far to see the answer. People who are having a rough time will look for soemone to blame. Hitler chose the Jews. They were easy targets. Today, the BNP chooses immigrants. They too are easy targets. Recall if you would the words to one of Dylan's songs:

"A South politician preaches to the poor white man
"You got more than blacks, don't complain
You're better than them, you been born with white skin" they explain
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game."

There have always been political parties that appeal to the basest of people. The greatness of democracy is that all votes are equal. It's also its great failing.

Snail's suggestion that this is being treated lightly by Canucks or Yanks is bull. Here we have the Aryan Nations and the US has the KKK. We even have people elected to government who are just a bit to the right of Hitler. However, they don't get to set policy, and that's good.

If Snail didn't want shit thrown at him he could have used the message function. He wants it public, well, it's public.

If Lizzie tells me to back off I will. She started this thread. Snail? He's just another poster with an opinion, just like the rest of us. He should read Thurber, btw.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:39 PM

Here's the next stanza in Dylan's song "Only a Pawn in Their Game"

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM

Here's the whole song.



"Only A Pawn In Their Game"

A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers' blood
A finger fired the trigger to his name
A handle hid out in the dark
A hand set the spark
Two eyes took the aim
Behind a man's brain
But he can't be blamed
He's only a pawn in their game.

A South politician preaches to the poor white man
"You got more than blacks, don't complain
You're better than them, you been born with white skin" they explain
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

From the powerty shacks, he looks from the cracks to the tracks
And the hoof beats pound in his brain
And he's taught how to walk in a pack
Shoot in the back
With his fist in a clinch
To hang and to lynch
To hide 'neath the hood
To kill with no pain
Like a dog on a chain
He ain't got no name
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

Today, Medgar Evers was buried from the bullet he caught
They lowered him down as a king
But when the shadowy sun sets on the one
That fired the gun
He'll see by his grave
On the stone that remains
Carved next to his name
His epitaph plain:
Only a pawn in their game.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 05:55 PM

Peace, I agree with part of what you say: indeed quite a lot of it. But I don't feel that getting ratty with the Snail is appropriate.

There were a a number of North Americans diminishing this topic (no matter what small-minded poilticiand and followers they have at home) by wabbitting along about wabbits.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 06:32 PM

I think Peace was making a rather good satirical point by arbitrarily blaming "rabbits" for all the world's troubles. He was demonstrating just how silly it is when a political movement starts demonizing some particular minority group of people for its own political gains. It could be the Jews or the Gyspies or the Hispanics or the Hindus or the Muslims...or the rabbits.

That's the satirical point, isn't it? The point is the innate irrationality and unfairness of blaming some whole group of people for your problems, whatever you think those problems are.

But don't complain that your democracy allows a BNP member to get elected in some riding. If it didn't allow some particular category of political candidate to get elected...provided he or she got enough votes to get elected...then it simply wouldn't BE a democracy. It would be something else just pretending to be a democracy. It would be a controlled oligarchy of officially sanctioned viewpoints, not a democracy.

You cannot found a true democracy upon the exclusion of those viewpoints you don't happen to like or agree with. If you have a message which you think is better than theirs, then my suggestion is: get your own message out there. Don't waste your energy attacking them. Promote what is positive in your own message. I get tired of hearing people attack other people when they could be presenting positive ideas of their own instead.

That's why Mother Teresa once refused an invitation to attend an "anti-war" demonstration, but she said she would be happy to attend any "peace" demonstration.

The first is based upon angrily attacking someone else's agenda. The second is based on resolutely presenting a positive agenda of your own. There's a vital difference in psychology there. It's the difference Obama kept trying to articulate in the past USA election (not that I think Obama is perfect in that respect...he's not...but he did at least try to stick to positives instead of constantly attacking other people).


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 07:22 PM

The BNP and other right wing groups have it as their stated aim to use British traditional music and customs to promote their cause. I know from my own experience that they would also like to use it to insinuate themselves into schools. There is no possibility that they will take over British folk music but they could do it serious harm by soiling its name with their odious views. This could have major repercussions in terms of funding, availability of venues and the general image in the mind of the public.

Thanks to Joe, this is now the only thread we have so I don't think it is too much to ask that it be kept on subject. To some of us here in the UK it matters very much.

Little Hawk, I very much agree with your last post but it was one of your compatriots who was most keen on saying "Fuck the BNP".


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 08:45 PM

And I'll say it again--but then I see you've said it on my behalf. Many thanks.

And fyi, to many people in North America the 'rise' and present 'slump' of the BNP means a great deal to us also. You're smug sob to think that you, and you alone, have a francise on a hatred of fascism. Jaysus. Bryan, we have been at odds before. And here we are at it again. I opened this thread to apologize for my remarks. I hereby do so. BUT, stop already with your horseshit, OK? And thank you for saying what I do think and feel about the BNP.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 08:47 PM

"Thanks to Joe, this is now the only thread we have so I don't think it is too much to ask that it be kept on subject."

Look beyond your nose. There IS another thread. This is not the only one.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:13 PM

And thank you, LH. You aced what I meant. But then, you would.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:02 PM

I understand what is concerning you about the BNP using folk music in schools, and so on, "Snail". You just have to combat that by getting your own message out in the clearest and most positive way you can, I would think, but there's no way to stop a fascist social movement from making use of a country's traditional music.

You just have to make better use of it than they do, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:54 PM

Amen to that. And here I thought you were just another pretty face.

The BNP., as will all Fascist organizations, use a culture against itself. Allow me to ask fascists: if your neighbour is of a different accent, will you despise him? Will you hate him? If so,, what shall we think of YOUR accent? The BNP are weak in thought. They cannot be strong in thought because their premise is wrong. The problem is NOT immigrants: the problem is a difficulty iof etting to know another culture, Since the BNP doesn't really know its own, they're 'f*****.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:58 PM

Pardo n theba dtyp in g



                                                                               ,


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:00 PM

It's the Tim Hortons coffee. It kills yer brain cells. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:03 PM

The guy lives in Ontario and I love him anyway!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:21 PM

"So why has the BNP gained votes?"

            More people are worried about human population growth than are worried about the human condition!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:27 PM

People are more concerned about living than they are about anything else. Never forget that.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:42 PM

people are concerned with living first. then second protecting what they have from 'threats'. in this case a manipulated threat from immigrant workers.

poeple from the UK need to remember how many ex pats there are working and living all over the world. howver moat of the countries they have gone to have welcomed them with open arms and as a nation we would lie to do the same to others. if the BNP and others would stop scaremongering we would be doing so already.

take care all

jade x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:45 PM

"People are more concerned about living than they are about anything else."


                   There are a number of ways to read that statement. Immigrants are concerned about living, and the populations into which immigrants are trying to assimilate are concerned about living as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:50 PM

Canada is a country of immigrants. We have one the best countries in the world according to most other countries. Let us know when you want it done. We'll be proud 'ta gie ya a han, Jimmy.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:53 PM

Just before I go to sleep, I wish to mention


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:56 PM

Okay, let 'er rip!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:56 AM

I think the rabbit bit was a variant of Rabbi Blue's story about the Reich going for the Jews and the bicyclists.
"Why the bicyclists?"
"You see, no-one worries about the Jews."

My feeling, as a fairheaded Saxon, is that the BNP can only honourably argue that all people who cannot show DNA evidence of descent from the aboriginal Mesolithic peoples - ie Cheddar man, Swanscombe woman et al, should return to their origins. If Denmark et al would have them/us.

There was a piece in Guardian last week about ex pats in Spain suffering from the credit crunch, and how many had gone there because they didn't like immigrants. ?

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 08:21 AM

There was a piece in Guardian last week about ex pats in Spain suffering from the credit crunch, and how many had gone there because they didn't like immigrants.
That really does sum it up. They don't even realise that to any Spaniard, they are the immigrants.
Anyhow, on thread, as has already been said, the BNP are not gaining votes - thank goodness.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 08:24 AM

A party of convictions

Is the double meaning intended?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 08:56 AM

Wolfgang,

Yes I think it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:02 AM

Peace, I don't think "smug sob" was called for. The BNP calls itself the BRITISH National Party - so it is a more direct threat to those of us here in Britain than it is to others. We do however appreciate international support for our antifascist views.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST, Fisheye
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 11:47 AM

I would dearly love to know where you come up with this word "fascist" when referring to the British National Party.

The British people voted and elected two BNP Euro ministers recently, are you saying those who elected them are not allowed to think for themselves ?

The BNP already hold a number of local council seats, anyone calling ordinary working class British people fascists, or saying they are supporting fascists should hang their head in shame.

Britain is changing, if some people want to vote for a party that protects British interests then allow them that freedom. If you don't then who is the fascist ?

Did I vote BNP ? Yes I did, why ? because I worked all my life and paid my taxes to build this great country. Like many the sight of waiting lists for jobs,hospitals and schools is the result of a failed government swinging the gates open.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 11:51 AM

troll, come back under your real name and we might be willing to listen.

jade


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 11:58 AM

No one told you or is telling you who to vote for. People are saying you are aa taco short of a combination plate for voting BNP. They are Nazis. They intend to be fascists. Have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 11:59 AM

I have nothing against Immigration.
but the political parties use it to keep basic pay down to a minimum for lower grade workers
and professionals alike?

The problem is that If the government uses immigration to save money and refuses to pay a decent wage to it own people and fall back on immigration to save money nationally all our doctors and nurses will go to other countries where the pay is better .


That breeds Racism. I heard one chap say at work
"I do not mind immigration but not at the expense of nationals?

Regards to all Pierre.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 01:50 PM

No, fake Fisheye (at least I really hope you are a fake) we are saying that you have proven that you cannot think for yourself if you voted BNP.

Did you not read my posts long ago? Without immigrants we would be short of doctors, dentists, nurses, a range of lawyers, builders, bricklayers, carpenters, underground train staff, and agricultural workers just for starters. Chelsea Football club would have gone bust (well, OK, there's always a snag) and TVR (cars) and Range Rover would be no more. Where would you go to eat out (unless you could afford the Savoy Grill or 90 Park Lane)?

The BNP leader thinks he can murder people navigating international waters, and parachute immigrants back "somewhere in the middle of Africa". Can you follow a leader that stupid?

The BNP wants all those who complete national service to keep automatic weapons at home. Well, it probably would reduce overpopulation - but in a sort of Malthusian or Swiftian way.

Ask yourself why there are so many convicted criminals supporting the BNP.



Apologies, but lengthy cut and paste follows: -

"Just in case you think we are being unfair in calling the BNP neo-Nazis and fascists, please read the below comparison. I've included some quotes so you can see what they stand for in their own words.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Nazi Party
We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

BNP
It believes that the indigenous peoples of the entire British Isles, and their descendants overseas, form a single brotherhood of peoples, and is pledged therefore to adapt or create political, cultural, economic and military institutions with the aim of fostering the closest possible partnership between these peoples.


Nazi Party
Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.

BNP
The British National Party stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people and is wholly opposed to any form of racial integration between British and non-European peoples. BNP activists and writers should never refer to 'black Britons' or 'Asian Britons' etc, for the simple reason that such persons do not exist.

Nazi Party
Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately.

BNP
It is therefore committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent, the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948.

Nazi Party
We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press.

BNP
The BNP stands for the revolutionary principle that the printing presses and broadcast channels of the media must tell the truth in their reports.... we will create a new criminal offence of "The deliberate dissemination of falsehoods about an individual or organisation for financial or political gain" by any media outlet.

Nazi Party
All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

BNP
A separate danger to genuine democracy comes from the concentration of ownership and control of the mass media in too few hands, particularly when the hands concerned are those of foreigners whose primary loyalty is not to Britain.

Fascism
An inherent aspect of fascist economies was an economy where the government exerts strong directive influence. Fascist economies were based on private property and private initiative, but these were contingent upon service to the state. Fascism opposes many capitalist tenets, such as support of free trade and free international movement of capital.

BNP
The British National Party is pledged to the maintenance of a private-enterprise economy operating within a broad framework of national economic policy. It is opposed to international monopoly capitalism and to laissez-faire free trade and free movement of plant and capital.

Fascism
Fascist movements oppose any ideology or political system that is deemed detrimental to national identity and unity, such as communism and laissez-faire capitalism.

BNP
The British National Party is implacably opposed to Marxism and liberal-capitalist globalism, which undermine our standard of living, human and ecological welfare, freedom and national identity.

Fascism
Fascism tends to promote principles of masculine heroism, militarism, and discipline; and rejects cultural pluralism and multiculturalism.

BNP
The compulsory National Service system....would begin at the age of 18 with a period of basic training in the army. This would include full training with the citizens' assault rifle. Conscientious objectors who refuse to undertake military service would be allocated other constructive work for the community, but would NOT receive THE CITIZEN'S RIGHT TO BE ARMED, or THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
Even if.... it proved to be possible to assimilate and integrate huge numbers of immigrants from other ethnic and cultural groups into Western societies without mayhem and bloodshed, we would still oppose it.

MEMBERSHIP (Lifted from their earlier website, they have never retracted this however)
Membership of the party shall be open only to those who are 16 years of age or over and whose ethnic origin is listed within Sub-section 2 (ii) The Celtic Scottish Folk Community; iii) The Scots-Northern Irish Folk Community; iv) The Celtic Welsh Folk Community; v) The Celtic Irish Folk Community; vi) The Celtic Cornish Folk Community; vii) The Anglo-Saxon-Celtic Folk Community; viii) The Celtic-Norse Folk Community; ix) The Anglo-Saxon-Norse Folk Community; x) The Anglo-Saxon-Indigenous European Folk Community; xi) Members of these ethnic groups who reside either within or outside Europe but ethnically derive from them.)<-----That's white to you and me.


"[t]he British National Party's determination not simply to stop any further mass immigration into the British Isles, but also to reverse the tide which has transformed vast areas of our country out of all recognition over the last fifty years. We, as the sole political representatives of the Silent Majority of the English, Scots, Irish and Welsh who formed and were formed by our island home, have one overriding demand: We want our country back!"

"We would repeal the Race Relations Acts and all other restrictions on free speech in Britain.... We would abolish all departments, agencies, or other units of government whose sole and specific purpose is to deal with ethnic issues, grievances, or crimes.... We would abolish all laws against racial discrimination in employment and the government bodies associated with enforcing them."

"A Clause 28-style proscription against the promotion of racial integration in schools and the media would be introduced."

"This wicked, vicious faith has expanded from a handful of cranky lunatics about 1,300 years ago, to it's now sweeping country after country before it, all over the world. And if you read that book (the Koran), you'll find that that's what they want." - Nick Griffin

"It is more important to control the streets of a city than its council chamber." - Nick Griffin

"The electors of Millwall did not back a post-modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan "Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, POWER IS THE PRODUCT OF FORCE AND WILL, NOT OF RATIONAL DEBATE." - Nick Griffin

"I am only going to represent the white people. I WILL NOT REPRESENT ASIANS. I will not do anything for them. They have no right to be in my great country." - Derek Beackon

"When we get to power OUR OPPONENTS WILL BE SWEPT AWAY like flies." - John Tyndall

"Very few people in Britain are aware of the huge influence over the mass media exercised by a certain ethnic minority, namely the Jews." - Nick Griffin

"The controllers of Hollywood, almost entirely Jewish. Some 'ANTI-SEMITISM' MAY BE PROVOKED BY THE ACTIONS OF CERTAIN JEWS THEMSELVES and thereby have a RATIONAL BASIS". - Nick Griffin

"There is no doubt that hundreds, probably thousands of Jews were shot to death in Eastern Europe, because they were rightly or wrongly seen as communists or potential partisan supporters. That was awful. But THIS NONSENSE ABOUT GAS CHAMBERS is exposed as a total lie." - Nick Griffin

"[t]his BLOODY JEW [Alex Carlile MP] whose only claim is that his grandparents died in the Holocaust." - Nick Griffin

"There's not a European country the Jews haven't been thrown out of. When it happens that many times, it's not just persecution. THERE'S NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE." - Mark Collett

"Without the White race nothing matters [other right-wing parties] believe that the answer to the race question is integration and a futile attempt to create "Black Britons", while we affirm that NON-WHITES HAVE NO PLACE HERE AT ALL AND WILL NOT REST UNTIL EVERY LAST ONE HAS LEFT OUR LAND." - Nick Griffin

"Yes, Adolf went a bit too far. His legacy is the biggest problem that the British nationalist movement has to deal with. It just creates a bad image." - Nick Griffin

"There is a STRONG, DIRECT LINK from Oswald Mosley to me." - Nick Griffin

"The TV footage of dozens of 'gay' demonstrators flaunting their perversions in front of the world's journalists showed just why so many ordinary people find these CREATURES so repulsive." - Nick Griffin

"Churchill was a fucking cunt who led us into a pointless war with other whites [the Nazis] standing up for their race." - Mark Collett

"He's a fucking traitor." - Mark Collett on the Prince of Wales

"The Royals have betrayed their people. When we're in power they'll be WIPED OUT and we'll get some Germans to rule properly." - Mark Collett

"A FRIENDLY DISEASE because blacks, drug users and gays have it." - Mark Collett on AIDS

"Hitler will live forever; and maybe I will." - Mark Collett

"The sick minds who would have us believe that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz are completely twisted." - Tony Lecomber

"Asians are rubbish, and that is what WE ARE GOING TO CLEAR FROM THE STREETS." - Derek Beackon

"Those responsible for creating this multi-racial hell hole must face trial and pay the ultimate penalty." - Nick Griffin

"AIDS Monkeys.... bum bandits.... faggots." - Mark Collett on homosexuals

"Racial laws will be enacted FORBIDDING MARRIAGE between Britons and non-Aryans: medical measures will be taken to prevent procreation on the part of all those who have hereditary defects either racial, mental or physical." - John Tyndall

"Mein Kampf is my Bible." - John Tyndall

"[t]here will be an unanswerable case when the day for the great clean up comes, to IMPLEMENT THE FINAL SOLUTION against these sub-human elements by means of the GAS CHAMBERS" - John Tyndall

"There's a difference between selling out your ideas and selling your ideas. And the British National Party isn't about selling out it's ideas, which are your ideas, but we are determined now to sell them. And that means basically to use these salable words.
As I say, 'freedom', 'security', 'identity', 'democracy', nobody can criticise them, nobody can come at you and attack you on those ideas: they are salable. Perhaps one day, once by being rather more subtle, we got ourselves into a position where we control the British broadcasting media, then perhaps one day the British people might change their minds and say, 'Yes, every last one must go'. Perhaps they will one day, but if you offer that as your soul mate to start with, you're going to get absolutely nowhere. So, INSTEAD OF TALKING ABOUT RACIAL PURITY WE TALK ABOUT IDENTITY." - Nick Griffin addressing the Ku Klux Klan

"Voluntary repatriation. Isn't that EASIER TO SELL than compulsory repatriation for all?" - Nick Griffin

"I honestly don't hate asylum seekers - THESE PEOPLE ARE COCKROACHES *and they're doing what cockroaches do because cockroaches can't help what they do, they just do it, like cats miaow and dogs bark." - Mark Collett *This is what the Hutus in Rwanda called the Tutsis of which 800,000-1 million were killed

"Well apparently didn't they get a lot of dentistry and plastic surgery."
- Rotherham BNP's Marlene Guest, referring to horrific Nazi experiments on Jews and others during World War II.

"We don't subscribe to the politically correct fiction that just because they happen to be born in Britain, a Pakistani is a Briton. They're not. They remain of Pakistani stock. You can't say that especially large numbers of people can come from the rest of the world and assume an English identity without denying the English their own identity, and I would say that's wrong. In a very subtle way, it's a sort of bloodless genocide." - Nick Griffin, 23 April 2009

"The idea that the Black African Bishop Sentamu, the Asian Muslim MP Shahid Malik, the part-Turkish Boris Johnson and the Jewish Lord Goldsmith have anything to teach the indigenous English about St. Georges Day is absurd." - John Lee Barnes

"When these Asians go out looking for a victim, they don't go looking for Asian victims. They don't go mugging Asian grandmas, they don't go stabbing each other, they don't go trying to solicit sex off little Pritesh or little Sanjita, they go straight to the whites because they are trying to destroy us and they are the racists." - Mark Collett

"All black people will be repatriated, even if they were born here. " - Nick Griffin

"Black culture is totally inimical to the mental and spiritual development of young white people, encouraging laziness, lack of ambition in worthy pursuits, preoccupation with the trivial and the banal, appalling manners and absence of respect for others". - John Tyndall

"WHITE WORKING CLASS SCUM will be swept away by a future BNP government." - BNP councillor Simon Smith

"THE RICH ARE GENETICALLY SUPERIOR TO THE POOR." - Tony Lecomber

"I'm no apologist for WHITE WORKING CLASS SCUM." - BNP councillor Simon Smith

"Rest assured, all those HOMEGROWN TRATORS who have taken part in the war against our indigenous rights will one day be held to account for their crimes." - Nick Griffin

"I want to see Britain become the 99 per cent genetically white country she was just eleven years before I was born, and I want to die knowing that I have helped to set her on a course whereby her future genetic makeup will one day not even resemble that of January 1948, but that of July 1914. Nothing will ever turn me from working towards that final vision." - Nick Griffin

"Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal... [it] is like suggesting force-feeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence." - Nick Eriksen

"Honestly now, would you prefer your kid growing up in Oldham and Burnley or 1930's Germany? It would be better for your child to grow up there." - Mark Collett

"Meanwhile, the indigenous side in the low-to-medium level civil war brewing in this country is getting its training. . .Its all going to get very messy." - Nick Griffin's blog on the BNP website

"It's clearly worth talking in terms of SIX-FIGURE SUMS to persuade families to go"- Nick Griffin, the Times, April 19, 2007

"We live in a country today which is unhealthily dominated by an EXCESS OF SENTIMENTALITY TOWARDS THE WEAK AND UNPRODUCTIVE. No good will come of it." -Jeffrey Marshall (senior organiser for the BNP's London European election campaign), 2009 after the death of Ivan Cameron.

"There is not a great deal of point in keeping these people alive after all." Jeffrey Marshall again referring to Ivan Cameron.

"The capitalist free traders, the Marxists and organised Jewry have declared war on the white man, not just in Britain but in every nation on the planet". - Nick Griffin

"We don't think the most overcrowded country in Europe, can realistically say, 'Look, you can all come and all your relatives'. When the Gurkhas signed up - frankly as mercenaries - they expected a pension which would allow them to live well in their own country." - Nick Griffin, 12 May 2009

Nick Griffin addressing a KKK meeting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OSzAtxnAJU

Nick Griffin denying the Holocaust on the Cook Report
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X8QQwU00Jk&feature=related


Nick Griffin denying he denied the Holocaust on the Cook Report
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-G2x9lotx8&feature=channel_page

The BNP canvassing for the EU and council elections 2009.
http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=82021815938&h=17rjV&u=vcxm0&ref=mf

The BNP's organiser admits that membership is limited to white Europeans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuyLVayDOHo&feature=player_embedded

Marlene Guest repeating the claims of 'Did Six Million Really Die?', a Holocaust denial book by Richard Verrall of the National Front. It's been thoroughly refuted by historians and claims things such as the Holocaust is used as a tool to exterminate the 'white race': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Did_Six_Million_Really_Die%3F



Sky News expose on the BNP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRKk2K3fMk0 "


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 01:53 PM

Excellent, Richard.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 02:17 PM

"Without immigrants we would be short of doctors, dentists, nurses, a range of lawyers, builders, bricklayers, carpenters, underground train staff, and agricultural workers just for starters."


               Actually, that only works if one buys into the Ronald Reagan/Margaret Thatcher concept of a "Free Market Economy" where you have ever expanding markets requiring ever expanding populations to support them.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 02:18 PM

Bloody hell Richard. I bet that tok some digging out. Congratulations.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 02:35 PM

here's another video link. BNP Wives


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 02:51 PM

Different breeds of people? Sheesh.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 02:55 PM

As for fishhead's request, it seems the fascist label was applied to the BNP by the BNP.

LOL

Thanks for a great laugh. Just what I needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 03:33 PM

Immigration depresses wages but not for the liberal elite.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 03:35 PM

Prove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 03:50 PM

I work in London and I see the bad side of Immigration whereby we have tent cities in the grounds of the War Museum and other local parks. I mean cities.

Its a sorry sight seeing folk sleeping rough, but its terrible when you see children streaked with tears clinging to parents whose families have come here from foreign lands to a miserable starving existence with no home no work no money and no future and no hope.
Take a stroll round Waterloo and re write Streets Of London.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 03:53 PM

We have similar stuff here, too. It has everything to do with multi-nationals and nowt to do with immigration.


Hey, FEARPLOY--where's the proof. Put up or shut up, svp.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 03:53 PM

I seriously doubt that's the real Fisheye, because the real one worked abroad for a serious number of years, and was therefore an 'Immigrant' wherever he/she went.
So try and sign is as me then you SCUM
John Barden


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 03:57 PM

Well said, TBoE. I no longer use words like that, but I give standing ovations to those who do.

BRAVO.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM

Well, looks like the BNP are a little short on proof today. No surprise there.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:14 PM

That stuff abut white working class trash could be publicised a bit more. If the putative voters realise they are for the gas chambers or the firing squad, that might change things a little.

So pacifists aren't going to get a free gun. Hmm.

I can't begin to quantify what is wrong with their ideas for a citizen army. If they can't see it, I'm not telling them.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:21 PM

ALL MUDCAT MEMBERS.
I suggest you sign on regarding Login on to stop the above happening. Some Dick head done the same to me on a Knockholt thread and Joe had to sort that out. I suggest Fisheye is told of the above because I doubt he would say that.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:23 PM

Supply and demand. Why should labour be exempt?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:29 PM

The BNP has the morals of a dog in heat. That is clear.

FEARPLOY--where's the proof?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fisheye
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 05:58 PM

Looks like somebody is abusing my name:    'Guest Fisheye' is not me folks..(the video man)

in my opinion folks should be registered with mudcat before they can start spouting their

minds. There are too many guests on here, and a political discussion is sure going to bring

them all out. For history i filmed a BMP march/meeting in Welling a number of years ago.

and if I had converted it to B/W it would have been perfect for Germany 1936.   

fisheye..the real one


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fisheye
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:23 PM

OK, I have read and scanned a lot of this discussion (LOL) and yes I have work in a lot of countries, usually they have been a lot bigger than little old United Kingdom. without making any racist statements, we are a small island and with an estimated 70 million in 2020 it sure is going to be crowded. However if you pack every unwanted bag and ship them out. I believe the few million left would have one hell of a time surviving. None of us can plow fields anymore and when I go fishing I usually catch old boots.
As a photographer I take pics, not make news.

Fisheye


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:35 PM

Little Hawk

I understand what is concerning you about the BNP using folk music in schools, and so on, "Snail". You just have to combat that by getting your own message out in the clearest and most positive way you can

If you look back at my posts, you will find that that is what I have been saying and doing all along, for instance here.

In your first post to this thread, you said -

Be afraid. Be very afraid. They are about to take over your entire folk tradition. Check the back of every bodhran for those little swastika markings and prepare to fight them on the beaches, in the wardrobes, on the street, and in the loo!

Very droll but remember that people have been beaten up in the street for taking BNP posters down. This is no laughing matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 07:20 PM

"Actually, that only works if one buys into the Ronald Reagan/Margaret Thatcher concept of a "Free Market Economy" where you have ever expanding markets requiring ever expanding populations to support them."

Richards comment wasn't a theory that needs justifying, it was an observation of the reality of "northern" economies.

These economies are currently depending on their immigrant workforce - from doctors and dustmen through to lawyers and bankers.

Trying to extract them would be like trying to extract half the DNA from a dual heritage child.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,stringsinger
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 07:57 PM

I think that it's a bad idea to start blaming anyone for the rise
of the BNP. Religious people are not the issue. This is racism,
pure and simple.

Immigration is a catalyst. It has always been one because of the tribal nature of certain groups. Fear is at the basis. Fear of the "outsider", "auslander","gadja","goy""proddie",
"papist","honky"....the list of derogations go on. Getting beyond
the destructive labels is getting to know the people who are being
persecuted.

Econmic conditions aggravate this stuff.

It's perfectly understandable when you think of the rise of Nazism
out of the economic slump in Germany. The Depression in the US saw
the rise of the German Bund. The Revolution in Russia. Whenever you see great disparities in wealth, you find this kind of thing.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 08:31 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density

Above is a link to a list of places ranked by population density. THe UK is 52nd on the list.

Even if the UK were over-densely populated, that would be because there were too many people there. It would tell us nothing about which of those people constituted the excess.

Here is a synopsis of a study that proposes that modern cultural behaviour emerges when a threshold population density is reached - and eve tnat it may disappear if density drops below that threshold. Tinker with population densities at your peril!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:25 PM

Fisheye, no one posting here thought that asshole was you. Just a further indication of what scum the BNP really are. I'm quoting my British buddy when I use the word 'scum'. Such a delightful term and apt, especially when applied to the British Neo-Nazi-Nationalist Party.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:27 PM

"Whenever you see great disparities in wealth, you find this kind of thing."

             And now that the Goldman Sachs bonuses have returned, we're about to see it here.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:39 PM

Is there someway a clone could edit out the GUEST, fisheye title on that idiots posts? Maybe give it the name GUEST crackhead? The posts are important to remain else the general flow will suffer. But here's no way the real Fisheye should have his name attached to garbage like that that was posted by the crack freak.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:41 PM

BTW, I'm still waiting for proof from that jerk, FEARPLOY.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 03:14 AM

That's a good idea, Peace, for an elf to edit out the fake names.

Incidentally the fools are at play over on Facebook again, with clones of me, John Barden, and VT. It re-emphasises what I said above - we don't tell BNP supporters what to think, we can see by their words and deeds that they can't and don't think.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST, RB elsewhere on the network
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 05:39 AM

And the new toy is a netbook so I will be able to label it up like Woodie Guthrie and fight fascists from anywhere!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 05:51 AM

I know Fisheye, so that is why I knew it wasn't him who signed in as a GUEST. I put him/her in to see if that threw the BNP scum off the scent, but they went and put something up on facebook as 'JON BARDEN' showing a picture of me with the caption 'British Folk Musicians support the BNP'. This shows what low down dirty bastards they really are, and I'll repeat, NOTHING BUT SCUM. They don't frighten me in the slightest.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 11:53 AM

It would be great if troll posts from the Nazi trash were edited so the the poster name read something like GUEST gutless or GUEST wanker.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 07:10 PM

How much space is there between the BNP and the Consevatives?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 07:51 PM

I think in all fairness there is a vast chasm between the two, though Ian Duncan Smith's campaign manager was Edgar Griffin (Nicks Dad) and there was a scandal in which he was caught feilding calls for his wife who was a BNP party candidate.

Aside from that, I think the tories do not specifically discriminate against anyone, but they are utterly blind to discrimination on grounds of race where it occurs and dismiss the whole thing as a load of twaddle.

This is in my view down to their fixation on keeping teh wheels runing smothly for their pals in big business.

They current batch are an old etonian club and I don't believe any of them understands what it means to run for the bus much less run the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 08:22 PM

"but they are utterly blind to discrimination on grounds of race where it occurs and dismiss the whole thing as a load of twaddle."

Sorry Lox, but our Conservative 'Cllr', mudcatter and friend is as anti racist as anyone I know.

Ok I know a generalization but ......


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 06:05 AM

Fair point Emma,

Though my point is really about tories being blind to anything that isn't to do with making it easier for Big Businesses to make a living, and reluctant to sign up to anything that might impede big business or that might cost big business money ...

... thus impeding their old pals ability to keep filling the coffers.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 06:32 AM

Had the impression New Labour was much the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 02:25 PM

Quite right Penny, they are all the same, gutless jobsworths.....Oh so "liberal" yet afraid to tackle any of the horrific social problems thrown up by our modern "liberal" way of life.

All they are interested in is working this unfair, slave owning system to their own advantage.
The "liberals" on here make me laugh....being offended by a ragtag little group like the BNP.   THey need to be fuckin' offended....anything to shake them out of their apathy....maybe they will start protesting about something important someday, like the erosion of our freedom...our people enslaved by economics.. our kids rotting in the drugs sink, or dumbed down by modern "culture"

We are supposed to respect tradition, yet ludicrous political correctness is destroying the spirit in our music and dance.

As I said on another thread, the danger to our freedom and rights will not come from the BNP who have almost no support in the country, but the odious and insidious cult of so called "Liberalism", which will, if it is not opposed, remove our will, spirit and even our thought processes.

Start fighting back now, even if it means joining forces with old "enemies"....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM

Ake, I love it when you get pissed off.

Trust things are good, buddy.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 03:20 PM

The conservatives however have nothing useful to say on any of the fronts that Akenaton mentions.

It seems to me that a good start would be some proper Fabian socialists.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 04:06 PM

Akenaton... surely not an old-school blood 'n' guts style tankie?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 05:18 PM

welcome back ake, believe it or not i have missed you.


you are right in some respects, we are becoming too politically correct to even try to address some of the issues we are facing. this is why the main parties are not going to get some real policies. they are too scared of being seen as the bad guys. it would seem that we now have reactionary politians. they react to crises and newpaper articles but do nothing to provent headlines in the first place, in case it is seen to be too full on or won't get public backing.
how can any government run a country like that? ... they can't.
they need to work out what is best for the country not what the public wants, the two sometimes do not go together.


sorry if this makes no sense, other than to me.

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 06:13 PM

"As I said on another thread, the danger to our freedom and rights will not come from the BNP who have almost no support in the country"

Are you not aware they won two seats in the European election recently.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 06:35 PM

Oh boy what an apt name.

Tits.

Windscreen wipers.

Barrage balloons.

Have you dear Russ bothered to read? Do you know what a question mark is for?

THE BNP VOTE WENT DOWN. IT WAS MINISCULE IN ANY EVENT. LIKE THEIR BRAINS.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 07:31 PM

Dunno who russ is - but it seems like he is making the point that we shouldn't trivialise the potential Danger that the BNP poses.

They are a serious bunch who bring violence and hatred into our communities and who would be more dangerous if they weren't held in check by people who are active in campaigning against them.

I believe that you share this view Richard, or have I misunderstood your take on the subject?

I read the comment before yours as a response to Ake's usual irrelevant capitalizing on whatever tenuous link is available to spew up his usual predictable tirade agqinst liberals and the PC Brigade.

I would have read his post as being more about how new labour are no better than the tories if he hadn't poured so much bile into his description of liberal mudcatters.

For the record, - I ain't got much, I'm a single parent and I live in new cross (in south london). Milwall Stadium is just up the road and I can see just how the petri dish of the inner city could easily grow a culture of racism, fear and paranoia if people like the BNP were to be ignored and trivialized.

The threat that the BNP poses is tangible to the point that you can taste it on the air when you are on their turf.

Ake never responded to my evidence on a previous thread which demonstrated that if there was a correlation between immigration and unemployment (which by the way there isn't), then according to the statistics, periods of high immigration have coincided with periods of low unemployment suggesting that immigration, in that context of this facile argument, causes low unemployment.

It is obvious to me that employment levels are influenced by numerous and much more significant other factors than immigration.

I provided this evidence because Ake was suggesting that the opposite was the case - i.e. that foreign immigrants are coming over here taking our jobs etc.

I wonder does he still hold that view?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 08:07 PM

Richard, I say old boy, steady on. There is no need for filthy chat like that. Thank you Lox, you are the only one that seemed to understand my post. Nice to see at least one poster is sober tonight !


I repeat, to get two seats in a European parliment you need a lot of people to place a tick beside your name. They also have a number of seats at local council level up and down the country.

Calling these people names and endless cut and paste anti BNP comments isn't going to make them go away. Put pressure on the main parties to address the issues that the rank and file British public want dealt with. There is a lot of decent folk out there who are giving up asking Labour to do their job, the result was two European seats, how many more next June ?

That isn't a pro BNP comment, that is fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 10:05 PM

The real Russ Meyer was of course a well-known limp-porn film-maker best known for things like "Beyond the Valley of the SuperVixens" and "Pussycat Dolls". The name chosen by the above poster is redolent of the fascination of some of the BNP clones with tits - to the extent of photoshopping the pictures of some of the fake BNP clone profiles on Fakebook to enhance the breasts.

The fact of the matter is that BNP support is, on a national scale, tiny, and went down in the recent Euro-elections. Where the BNP is dangerous is on the streets where its supporter thugs attack on Redwatch commands: no model for any democratic society.

If you want to see how intellectually bankrupt the BNP is, visit Nick Griffin's blog .   It is frankly beneath contempt.

Expect a rash of new rants from the xenophobes since the also ridiculous Daily Mail is sounding off about immigrants again. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of immigrants are hard working decent honest individuals.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 10:10 PM

Wikipedia on Russ Meyer


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 03:49 AM

Spleen Cringe....sorry to disappoint you, but I am as much of a radical as you are ever likely to encounter.

Radicalism today, does not consist of engineering a huge lumpen working class to ensure the future of the Capitalist system and incidentally increase their reliance on the money supply and enable their addiction to consumerism.

Capitalism has been shown recently as simply a means of robbing the populace....something radicals have known for some time.

The banks over reach themselves, through unbridled greed, made easier by the govt's search for ever increasing economic growth(a necessity for the survival of Capitalism), then the taxpayers are robbed of the funds needed to set the banks back on their feet, ready to start the cycle all over again....But not only taxpayers have been robbed, the situation has given govt the excuse to cut public spending on important social issues right across the board.

Radicals are no longer prepared to support this system, and are questioning the "Quisling" nature of "Democratic liberalism"

The important thing is not to allow ourselves to be organised for the benefit of those who rule us....defend free speech, freedom of thought, and search for happiness and fulfillment in our short time on the planet.
Humanity suffers from economic slavery right now...just as wrong as the physical slavery of other races, which we all rightly condemn...yet we all ignore the condition of society today, because "there is no other option"....no real radical would ever believe that shit!

The BNP?.....Grow up,we are all the BNP somewhere in the back of the specially prepared brains we have been given. Throughout the generations of exploitation, we have all aquired our little prejudices, along with the plasma TV, the mondeo, and the house in the suburbs.....or along with the deprivation of living with drugs, violence, teenage prostitution, in some sink estate.
The answer is not to deny those prejudices, but to get them out in the open, put them up for debate.....don't ban free speech....use it!............"Liberalism" just hates debate!...Ake

Good post Jeddy! I understood it all right!   think you might be a real radical, if you can kick the gay marriage thing!...:0)

Brucie Baby......Nobody here has seen me "pissed off"....YET!
I'm OK my friend, thanks,hope you are likewise


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 05:41 AM

"From: Emma B - PM
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 08:22 PM

"but they are utterly blind to discrimination on grounds of race where it occurs and dismiss the whole thing as a load of twaddle."

Sorry Lox, but our Conservative 'Cllr', mudcatter and friend is as anti racist as anyone I know.

Ok I know a generalization but ......"

I have never been and never will be racist but unfortunately people seem unable to look past the "label". Facism seems more rife against the BNP than within.

MBS George


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:19 AM

MBS George. Practically every racist I've ever known has denied being a racist. The BNP deny it. The National Front deny it. But they still want to empty the country of everyone they feel doesn't belong here by virtue of the colour of their skin, and that is racism. By their deeds shall ye know them.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:27 AM

""The fact of the matter is that BNP support is, on a national scale, tiny, and went down in the recent Euro-elections. Where the BNP is dangerous is on the streets where its supporter thugs attack on Redwatch commands: no model for any democratic society.

If you want to see how intellectually bankrupt the BNP is, visit Nick Griffin's blog .   It is frankly beneath contempt.
""

How many Germans thought of the Nazi party as a future government in 1928?

These scum MUST be confronted at every chance. To ignore them is to open the door to armageddon once again.

Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:29 AM

I don't realy care about your opinion Mr McCormick or is it Mr Bridge I have read everything you have to say and the only opinions I care about are those of my friends and you sir are not my friend. Your comments are among the most fascist I have ever seen.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Don
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:08 AM

Well said MBSGeorge, there are a lot here that share your views.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:09 AM

MBSGeorge. "you sir are not my friend"

By God. You can say that again.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 08:51 AM

goerge,
i understand that though you might not be racist, you have aligned yourself with a party that is. please have a look at their history. when they cannot get their way through reasonable disscusion, they bully and use violence to get what they want.
although i nearly understand the problems you face,but they are not the answer.

ake, lol :)

this problem is coming from the main parties, no question about that. but the BNP are using it to tell the public what they want to hear, not only without the slightest intention of keeping their word, but to use their power for their own nasty agenda.

this is why we cannot give up. we have to let people know that they are being used and lied to.
personally i cannot tolerate what they stand for but it is their right to say what they want, IF and it is a very big if, they are honest of their intentions from the start.

dishonesty is one of my pet hates thes same as not taking personal responsability.(?) okay it is first thing in my morning and my brain doesn't work........(fill in the blank)

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 09:24 AM

The case made here against the BNP is pure assertion. They are a legal, constitutional party who fight elections and win votes, which is more than can be said for the UAF-SWP and other advocates of "confrontation" (read intimidation and violence). The Searchlight/Hope Against Hate outfit also has a murky past.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 09:38 AM

The BNP gets votes because in some areas of England the indigenous population is swamped by muslim immigrants who have their own agenda.How do I know that? It happened to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 09:42 AM

I'm not getting involved in this particular can of worms, but I did follow the link to Nick Griffin's blog, in which he talks about alleged vote rigging.
Speaking as one who has worked as a poll clerk at many elections locally, I consider these allegations to be compete and utter twaddle, and an insult to hard working election officials.
And that's all I wish to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 10:00 AM

I have never been and never will be racist but unfortunately people seem unable to look past the "label". Facism seems more rife against the BNP than within.
It seems perverse to stand for election for a party about which you clearly know very little. The BNP is, by its own admission, a racist organisation. By endorsing its views, George, you are going to be labelled as a racist.
Have you really not followed any of the links given to the truth behind the BNP? Have you not considered any of the questions put?
If you have, and you still support the BNP, then you are a racist and a fascist, and I imagine that your circle of 'friends' will be very narrow indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,A.Rees
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 10:26 AM

Gervase, What people have to understand is a lot of people in Britain who voted for the Bnp at European and council level are no more a racist than I am. There is a problem in a lot of areas with Europeans.

Take the area I live. Twenty years ago it was a beautiful quiet owner/occupier residential development. If you were off on annual leave you never saw anyone as they were all working. Today it's different. Greedy land lands buy up everything that comes on the market and rent out to people who have neither respect for their property or their neighbours.

Most are from Europe. They came here to work, and they did, and worked long hours. Even that has changed. They brought their wives and girlfriends over and started rearing families. The couple next to me have three kids. He is a skilled engineer, he admitted to me it would not pay him to work now with what he is able to claim from the government as an unemployed father of three children supporting a partner.

The government even pay the rent on the house he lives in and he doesn't have council tax to worry about either.

In one part alone, twelve of the fourteen houses are occupied by Europeans, few speak English and only three of the residents work. All seem to enjoy a charmed lifestyle, who is paying for it ?

This is reflected up and down the country, if you don't see this leading to problems, you must be blind.

I agree with people coming into the country to work and improve themselves and benefit our society, but come on it has got totally out of control and public services can't cope with the numbers.I am the one feeling in a minority now.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 11:27 AM

As for radicalism, the left abandoned the struggle against capitalism in favour of 'cultural marxism': i.e. patronising ethnic minorities, promoting 'diversity' and multiculturalism (even when those cultures are reactionary), sneering at the white working class they used to champion, and working to eliminate national boundaries. How very convenient for international capitalism and globalization.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 11:48 AM

The case made here against the BNP is pure assertion. They are a legal, constitutional party

That year after year fail to submit their accounts on time. Just been fined another £500.00 this year, by the Electoral Commission.

They are not even competent racists.

I have never been and never will be racist but unfortunately people seem unable to look past the "label".

A candidate for the BNP in Chippenham not a racist? Have you told the party?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 01:42 PM

Gosh - looks like the BNP supporters on this site have got together to support each other.

Fairplay, MBSGeorge and a couple of guests all posting at the same time.


The case against the BNP on this site has been fully supported by testimony from the Party leader himself.

Here he gives the KKK a lecture on how to package racism in politically correct language.

Here he denies the holocaust.


Here he argues that boats containing immigrants to europe should be sunk to keep them out and the immigrants left to "go back to Libya" on life rafts.


That's just the tip of the iceberg as evidence of the BNP's vile character goes.

I will leave it to other catters to post the rest of the evidence.


MBSGeorge, Fairplay etc, do you reject Nick Griffins views as expressed in these videos or do you agree with him?


Can you provide evidence that the organizations you have discredited have anything shady about their past or are your comments fiction?



The evidence overwhelmingly shows the BNP to be a neo-Nazi political organization.


If you don't want to be described as a neo-Nazi, then don't support, sign up to or represent a neo-Nazi party.


By doing so you are making it public that you support/represent a neo--Nazi ideology.


Do you support this ideology or do you reject it?


I think this is your big opportunity to clarify this point.


I will not accept reasons, I don't care why people may or may not have turned to the BNP, I expressly wish to know if you support or reject Nick Griffins views as expressed in the above videos.

I also wish to know if you support or reject the BNP's neo-Nazi ideology.


Where do you stand George?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 01:52 PM

"He is a skilled engineer, he admitted to me it would not pay him to work now with what he is able to claim from the government as an unemployed father of three children supporting a partner."


Please provide evidence of this?


I am a single parent. I have depended on income support, though I don't do so now and I know how much you get and I know who qualifies and who doesn't.

I am fully informed on this subject and know for a fact that your claims are not true.


Where is your evidence?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:01 PM

For a breakdown of Engineers salaries look here

Starting salaries 18,000 to 29,000

Qualified engineers (yours was apparently skilled) 35,000 - 45,000

Experienced engineers (maybe this suits your "skilled" category) 65,000


I can tell you for a fact that a single parent receives the maximum income support at just over £50 a week. Child benefit (available to everyone) £20, child tax credit £45 a week.

Beyond that, a single parent may claim their exact rent in housing benefit.

In most cities in England this equates to about 16,000 a year.


A two parent family DOES NOT QUALIFY as only one parent is needed to provide care for the child.


So,

1, they would not qualify

2, they would not have anything like the same income as a "skilled" engineer.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:03 PM

The BNP crap that posts here doesn't give evidence. It provides allegations. Always has, always will.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:11 PM

Paco Rabanne

The BNP gets votes because in some areas of England the indigenous population is swamped by muslim immigrants who have their own agenda.How do I know that? It happened to me.

Personal experience is always valid, if it is backed up with facts. Where do you live, how long have you lived there? In what way have you personally been affected detrimentally by a "swamping" of or by anyone? I'd like to understand your viewpoint.

----------------

A Rees:

Take the area I live. Twenty years ago it was a beautiful quiet owner/occupier residential development. If you were off on annual leave you never saw anyone as they were all working. Today it's different. Greedy land lands buy up everything that comes on the market and rent out to people who have neither respect for their property or their neighbours

What area is that? Don't you think that the whole country has been affected by greedy landlords and vile neighbours? Is it peculiar to eastern Europeans?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:18 PM

A Rees:

Most are from Europe. They came here to work, and they did, and worked long hours. Even that has changed. They brought their wives and girlfriends over and started rearing families. The couple next to me have three kids. He is a skilled engineer, he admitted to me it would not pay him to work now with what he is able to claim from the government as an unemployed father of three children supporting a partner.


So it *is* OK, by you, for Eastern Europeans to come here, work hard, pay taxes and contribute to our country.

But apparently they should not be allowed to raise a family?

And when things go wrong for them, they should be less entitled to state-support than any other taxpayer?

You describe the so-called "benefit trap". This is a fact of the benefits system but it has nothing to do with being Black, White, European, Christian or Muslim. Go to a "white" area and there will be x% of Aryan Volk who are in the same boat. I'm not excusing it, but it certainly isn't a reason to pick on some parts of society and to vote BNP is it?

Rees, I don't know if you are a BNP Troll or a genuine person so I am pointing out *how you sound*. Can you think about what you wrote, and how it sounds and if necessary come back and explain things better to correct any misunderstanding on my part, or by others?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:20 PM

"Immigration depresses wages but not for the liberal elite."

Fearploy posted the above a while back. STILL waiting for proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:26 PM

Fairplay:

As for radicalism, the left abandoned the struggle against capitalism in favour of 'cultural marxism': i.e. patronising ethnic minorities, promoting 'diversity' and multiculturalism (even when those cultures are reactionary), sneering at the white working class they used to champion, and working to eliminate national boundaries. How very convenient for international capitalism and globalization.


The left never supported *the white* working class, against and over the interests of any other type of working class, it supported and continues to champion the working class of our species regardless of colour, race, creed and nation.

What is convenient for capitalism and the Bush/Blair neocon vision of a west-dominated globalisation is the existence of divisive forces such as fascism and nationlism, of which the BNP is a leading light.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:26 PM

""The case made here against the BNP is pure assertion. They are a legal, constitutional party who fight elections and win votes""


Here's an example for you that is fact, not assertion, regarding your legal, constitutional, apology for a political party. Apparently identity theft is now legal, and constitutional, according to the filth that you and MBS George so misguidedly espouse.


Richard Bridge, John Barden (Barden of England), Fisheye, myself, and several other Catters are being cloned on Facebook, as Folkies Supporting the British Nazi Party.

A photo of me, stolen from a U-Tube Video has been superimposed on a BNP poster, so it purports to show me playing in front of Nick Griffin.

It has been put up on a false profile, with no background information, and I have been forced today, to sit down with my grandchildren, and explain that "No! Grandad isn't a Nazi racist, but the people who are pretending to be him ARE!"

How does that make YOU feel MBS George, assuming you still have feelings?

For any of you who see this, until I manage to persuade Facebook that it isn't me, let me assure you that the only way I would support that scum is with a good strong rope, applied correctly with a hangman's knot.

Ditto Facebook. If they can't, or won't, remove that filth, I will have nothing to do with them.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:32 PM

And a general question to all the BNP supporters.

Why can none of you answer the essential questions.

There is endless evidence that Nick Griffin and the BNP hardcore are racist, neo-nazi, holocaust denying, fascist politicians. It has been posted here so often it becomes tedious. This evidence is the people, speaking their own words, writing their own articles, books, manifestos.

In spite of all this you still say that you believe that a) BNP politics are not fascist or neo-nazi and b) that you yourselves are not fascist or neo-nazi.

So you have to understand that with all the evidence standing against you, why do you believe something different?

If you can't provide some explanation for why you do, and we should, think differently of the BNP then why should we believe that you are not simply as racist and fascist as the party you advocate?

C'mon, help us out here.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:33 PM

The BNP are shit. People who belong to it are shit. It's that simple.

That includes MBS George. That's the kind of stuff YOUR party is doing. You have cut yourself off from a community of people and I feel no sympathy for you at all. BTW, decide on your name for krissake.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:34 PM

'Racism' and 'Fascism' are highly-charged terms. They are also highly-loaded and hugely manipulated, and ought to be challenged. To apply these terms to those who want to preserve their own identity and culture is crass, accusatory and aimed at stifling and criminalising a perfectly legitimate aspiration.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:35 PM

Fearploy: the question. Answer the question. Or fuck off, asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM

"From: Lox - PM
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 01:42 PM

Gosh - looks like the BNP supporters on this site have got together to support each other.

Fairplay, MBSGeorge and a couple of guests all posting at the same time."



Don't be ridiculous!! What do you think I did - rang all my little BNP mates and said hey I'm gonna post something now come and say some good stuff after me!! Grow up!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:38 PM

Andrew, answer the question idiot. (That's addressed to Fearploy, AKA Fairplay.)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:38 PM

Fairplay:

The case made here against the BNP is pure assertion. They are a legal, constitutional party who fight elections and win votes


The BNP is a legal party, but we are taking legal actions to try to change that, based on the evidence of its unlawful membership and constiutional articles.

That aside, the danger is that this currently legal party is controlled by a dangerous nazi racist. In his own words (proof already posted several times: the KKK Speech) has a scheme of lying about the true policies and the true end-game of Griffinism until he has gained power and until it is too late then to stop him.

That is why he must be stopped now. It's exactly like being in 1920's Germany and seeing the rise of National Socialism.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:40 PM

That doesn't work, "George". You hang with scum you become scum.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:42 PM

Fairplay, MBSGeorge,

As you are here, please get to the question.

There is all the evidence from Griffin's own mouth and pen that he is a neo-nazi and racist politician. He runs the BNP totally. So the BNP is a neo-nazi and fascist party.

If you and your friends are not neo-nazi or fascist then why do you support the BNP?

Find some other way to express your (apparently different) political viewpoint.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:44 PM

Anyone else want to single me out and attack me personally? Go for your life. I have a thick skin and I've been through a lot worse than you lot can throw at me!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:47 PM

George, I am not attacking you personally, I am pleading with you to explain your position. Sorry if I sound exasparated but, damn, you stood for public office. I've never come across a politician with absolutely nothing to say about their politics and party.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:49 PM

Poor baby. You are fast becoming the garbage that posts on behalf of the BNP. They are scum. YOU picked your friends. They have gone out of their way to hurt musicians. Many of them. I hope the day comes when they can spit on the ground you walk, because after the likes of you have thereon trod it will be useful for little else.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:50 PM

She speaks for and belongs to a party that has targeted musicians. That makes her the same shit they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:55 PM

Keep it coming Peace. I haven't insulted anyone on this thread but your last 3 posts have included insults aimed at ............. me. You're such a polite person aren't you?




Joe

Appologies for the thread drift. I will no longer post unless it is in reference to the thread title.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 02:58 PM

Facebook can be used two ways. You do NOT have the only 'roaming servers' in the world, nor are you any different from the Nazis you so ardently defend.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 03:05 PM

george,
i have attacked you in the past and like i said i am sorry for that. however you do not make it easy to understand or to try to defend you, when you don't answer questions put to you.
i am more interested in getting you sorted so that you have a clear enough head to see through the lies you have been told.
if you keep refusing to address the questions or to rethink your' connection to the BNP, then i will have no option than to give you up as a racist the same as the party you not only joined but represented in an election.

take care all

jade x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 03:23 PM

Royston,
       You obviously still live on the outskirts of Woodstock in 1969! In England, this is how it goes- one group buys a house in your street, then that group and their friends/family club together and buy up every property in the street.
       That was my experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 03:45 PM

Sorry Paco, I live in Lewisham, you're not answering the question. I suspect you are a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 03:48 PM

Paco Rabanne: would you feel the same if the people buying several houses in "your" street were a white British family? Or is it about your own fear/intolerance of diversity? what have your neighbours actually done to you to warrant your attitude? I'm genuinely puzzled. I'm in England - in a large city with a diverse population and your experience certainly doesn't match mine. Where on earth do you live?

MBS George: why are you a BNP member who has stood for office on their behalf if you don't share their views? I really don't understand. I think I'm not alone in wondering why its so hard for you to give us a simple explanation of where you are coming from. Is that too much to ask? In the absence of anything else surely you can see we are just going to logically assume you support the views of your leaders? And if you don't, what on earth are you doing there? It's too easy just to home in on people's genuine anger to deflect attention from what you are doing rather than offering some rationale, and frankly, it doesn't wash.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 03:51 PM

Oh, I'm sorry Rob On, I didn't catch the postcode.

Or is it OK for YOU to borrow from families and friends but not THEM?

And if all of THEM are bidding for the properties in YOUR street why does that not drive up YOUR house price to YOUR benefit?

Can you not see that everything you have written is based on categorisation of people by race (whatever their skin colour)?

MBS (regrettably) George - you have three options. You might be blind, so you cannot see what the BNP says, does, or is. You might be stupid, so you do not understand what the BNP says, does, or is. Or you know and support them anyway.

Looks like a fair cop for me. Lie down with dogs you get fleas.

Fairplay (oh what a piece of duckspeak) - if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Racist and fascist are fair descriptors.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 04:02 PM

I just had a check of Paco's posts and it seems the joker lives in Beverley / Hull.

Hull City Council says that the Black and Minority Ethnic population figures for 2004 are 4% of a population of 250,000. That's hardly "swamped", is it now?

HULL CC WEBSITE


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 04:16 PM

hey richard,   whats so wrong with ducks? don't let our neighbour hear you say anything bad about them, she gets very protective of the wild ones that sleep on our road every year!!   in fact she treats them so well, they don't want our bread anymore!! ... now that i think of it.. fuck the ducks!   lol

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 04:20 PM

Jeddy, it has to be said you spend an inordinate amount of time laughing out loud. Keep it up! lol


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 04:21 PM

Richard Bridge

I'm surprised a legal executive should want to support a violent Fascist organization like the UAF.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 04:32 PM

Fairplay:

I'm surprised a legal executive should want to support a violent Fascist organization like the UAF.


Richard will answer for himself (but he's a solicitor, not a legal executive).

Why do you say UAF are violent?

As for fascist, well the clue is in the name Unite *Against* Fascism.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 04:34 PM

Try again twat.

If anyone is bored, there are several more twiddledicks on Fakebook.

Pop over to FaF and click on "English Folk" and see his friends and check them out and then go to "John Barden" (it's not our John) and check them out too.

If you see anyone who is a colourable impersonation of a folkie you know check with the folkie if you feel the need and then report the fake.

the fake John Barden is not him.
THe fake RIchard Hoffmeister Bridge is not me
Nor is the fake Richard Bridge
The fake GirliefromEssex is not Essex Girl
The Fake Bruce Murdoch is not (and nor is English Folk) Bruce
The fake VIrginia Tam is not VT
The fake Kat Coffey is not Katlaughing

I have no idea who Sonja Runagle is - but she probably does not want to be called "Twin airbags".


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 05:52 PM

I don't think you'll get any sense out of BNPGeorge. She's had the opportunity to answer some simple questions about the BNP but, guess what, she ducks the issue. I really would be interested to know why she supports a racist party if she claims not to be a racist, and how she would explain to those Middle Bar singers who aren't white, straight or able-bodied why she keeps calling herself "MBSGeorge" but, surprise surprise, she's not answering questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 05:53 PM

The BNP are a bit of a joke,but given time, as has happened in Holland, a more credible party devoted to the 'first nation' will emerge.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:12 PM

""To apply these terms to those who want to preserve their own identity and culture is crass, accusatory and aimed at stifling and criminalising a perfectly legitimate aspiration.""

Wanting to preserve our own culture and identity is part of what WE try to achieve.

That is very different from wanting to delete those whom you have judged not to belong to that culture, and that's what Griffin and his neo-nazi thugs are trying to achieve.

So go peddle your fascist ideals where they will be accepted. I hear there are quite a few of your old German allies hanging out in South America.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:22 PM

And Richard, we've already got enough Fascists, racists, and s**t stirrers.

Don't you start up another war with those duckist comments of yours.

LMAO
Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:30 PM

MBS George doesn't answer questions. She doesn't respond to any attempts at dialogue. In spite of her protests that she is not Fascist, or racist, she has no doubts about her choice to represent them.

And let's face it, regardless of how many local voters may have put their cross against her name, it is NOT her constituents she wishes to represent. It is the British Nazi Party.

She is a committed member who is obviously well in tune with their power hungry aims and objectives, and as such, not a person with whom I wish to have any further contact.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:32 PM

Paco

The BNP are a bit of a joke,but given time, as has happened in Holland, a more credible party devoted to the 'first nation' will emerge.

OK Waco, can't stand the heat on the home-front? From your little bunker in Dull you want to start arguing about Dutch politics? Well I work for a Dutch company and spend an awful lot of time (or a lot of awful time) there.

What rag-tag bunch of prop-rep loonies are you going for now? Wilders and the Freedom Party? Be sensible. They got 4 euro seats on the back of another tragically low turnout and don't really register in national elections in spite of prop-rep for those as well.

Bigots and fascists always do well on low turnouts because they are committed to their vile opinions and prepared to keep smearing their shit on the walls when decent folk turn their backs [on the ballot box].


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: greensue
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:34 PM

I am not straight, or able bodied, but I believe MBS George, having been a Middle Bar Singer for about 20 years, has every right to call herself that. Or are you a fascist? That is, opposed to democracy and liberalism?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:38 PM

and, before anyone starts the name calling, I believe greensue has the right to express her own views here too without disrespect.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,MJ
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:40 PM

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed it is so off topic and one or two people seem to be the targets.

On topic,

I imagine people have got fed up being told how to think and how to act in an increasingly difficult employment market, housing situation and are fed up of being told - oh yes you might have held the same job for 30 years but that guy who came to this country yesterday can get a home and money and you can't.

There are no policies to support these british citizens within the conservatives, labour or lib dem.

Just for the record all those who keep latching on to the re-patriation policy - it is already in place and has been for more than 20 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:52 PM

I really can't understand why this thread is still up here. It has broken every rule in the book and used every filthy word (and a few new ones).
How can you fight the BNP if you can't stop fighting with eachother ?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:57 PM

I haven't insulted anyone.

I have been described as ridiculous on he basis of a straw man argument.

"What do you think I did - rang all my little BNP mates and said hey I'm gonna post something now come and say some good stuff after me!!"

No - I don't have any idea what you did or didn't do.

I certainly didn't suggest that you had done that.

I did observe that lots of pro BNP posts happened at the same time.

That observation remains true.



In the meantime, would you mind informing us whether you support or reject Griffins views as expressed - here ,
here and here .


If it is your intention to run for office then shouldn't you be informing people of your point of view?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:58 PM

Er - Wacko Paco - what do you mean by "the first nation"?

MJ (funny, aren't you dead?)

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THAT "FED UP OF" IS A SOLECISM?

If you want to represent "the English" you might as well learn to speak and write the language.

Your statement of the alleged facts is simply fanciful. Why don't you go and check how asylum seekers are deprived of effective benefit, as part of a deliberate ploy by the government to stop them coming here.

The BNP is not in favour of supporting "British Citizens". Go and read it up. It wants to send (home, away, somewhere? - for swimming or flying lessons??) out of the UK even British citizens who are of non-british citisen parentage or grand-parentage. You don't mean British citizens - you mean white, n'th generation English (despite the fact that we are ALL descended from nilotics).

If you want to fix housing shortages - just reverse the doctrinaire Thatcherite restrictions on council house building and enable councils to spen on housing the money from councilhouse sales. Stop council house sales.

If you want to fix benefits issues - you do that by keeping the Tory toffs out of office, and re-creating the post-war welfare state that the conserviateves destroyed. You do it by simplifying the rules and rules and rules written, re-written and over-written to STOP deserving cases getting benefits. You might want to try a negative income tax, and cut out a lot of bureaucracy. You don't do it by assuming that non-whites and non-English get benefits and that white English can't. It simply is not true.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:00 PM

"oh yes you might have held the same job for 30 years but that guy who came to this country yesterday can get a home and money and you can't."

Where is your evidence of this?

"Just for the record all those who keep latching on to the re-patriation policy - it is already in place and has been for more than 20 years."

Where is your evidence of this?



You will provide none because it doesn't exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,paco rabanne
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:02 PM

Royston,
       Get a grip girl!! 'They got four euro seats.' Those are your words,four is better than none. four seats also tells me that native people have had a gut full of politically correct 'multi culturalism' and are starting to vote for their own survial!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:03 PM

Talking of 'ull, one of my best mates is a British Asian Hindu from that fair city. Not suprisingly she prefers it here in Manchester...

Incidently, any Wiltshire-based BNP candidates reading this might like to have a read of this research paper about the experiences of the county's 4,500 or so black and minority ethnic residents: Hidden Voices...


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:07 PM

No, Waco, in a prop-rep system of voting it just means that the committed bigots do better when the decent majority stay at home from an election (like Europe) that they can't be arsed with. Just like the British Nazi Party with its two euro-seats.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:09 PM

You hippies really have no idea what it's like to live in an English inner city have you?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:12 PM

I live in inner city London.

So does Royston.

Where so you live Paco?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:20 PM

Ah ... Hull ...

I know it well.


I went to watch Hull FC beat Widnes for the premiership in 1991 in old Trafford.

My Brother lived in Hull for many years.

Pretty grim, but not an ideal case study of the success or failure of multiculturalism.


I did enjoy the Wilberforce Museum though.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:35 PM

Inner city Manchester for the past 27 years. Does that count?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:36 PM

And WTF is wrong with hippies?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:36 PM

i always thought that the existing repariation was volentary(?) and on request? no? am i wrong?

as for people coming into this country and getting housing, well if you were being hunted by your government and half your family had been hunted down and killed you would want to go somewhere else too, not only would you be desperate for another country to take you in but you would be very grateful for any housing and money to live on while you get yourself together.

the problem with housing is actually quite simple. there are so many derilict and empty houses, why does the council refurbish these?

why are there so many new houses being built on floodplains wherepoeple can't get insurance?

where ever you go in the country you will find disused factories why can these not be used as hostels and community housing?

disused army barracks or airfields could be changed for use too.

we are not short of space in this country but we are short of housing.

why?.... the government and councils.
surely they could give incentives to developers to do them.

instead of spending so many hundreds of thousands of pounds on modern art they should get their priorities straight?

for the same price as a few houses done up they instead built , the big mirror in nottingham that fried birds in the summer when then flew over it. they also bult the big bang(where i can't remember) that kept falling to bits and injured a fair few people in the end they took it down.

our local park is a really good example. they tarmaced (?) road into it, fair enough but stole alot of parking spaces to creat a grass verge. the rest of the carpark is made of a sand and gravel mix, which on a hill and sloping towards the river was really sensible. they have had to resurface it once already and it is only a year old!
if they had sone a proper job in the first place it wouldn't need touch ups. the result is that the cars in summer go all the way up side roads.


sorry to be rambling but it shows where the councils have been wasting OUR money.

it is them that has been wasting money, it has nothing to do with immagrants or assylum seekers.

there is a huge waste of public money in just about everything you look at.

i am all ranted out for now.

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,paco rabanne
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:37 PM

Ah yes... London.. The natural home of our elders and betters! How rude of me to attempt to cross swords with such cosmopolitans!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:41 PM

sorry about the spelling mistakes and lack of spacing and punctuaition in my last post. my pc wouldn't let me go back to fix them.

btw. we lived in alot of different areas in nottingham for over 7 years.

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:48 PM

"You hippies really have no idea what it's like to live in an English inner city have you? "


The evidence above shows your statement was wrong.


2 of us "hippies" live in Inner city London and one lives in inner city Manchester.

And those are just the ones who have answered so far.


Paco - keep posting.   You are saving us the bother of arguing as you embed your foot further and further into your mouth.

It must be quite a challenge to maintain that position with your head so firmly jammed where the sun don't shine.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,George Davis
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:59 PM

I think France got it right. Remember the riots a few years ago ? the government there care for their own. Britain really has become a joke in the eyes of Europeans. It has become the walfare state feeding bowl of Europe for any Tom,Dick or Harry who fancies a free house, free medical care, free education and a free handout.

If I went to any European country on holiday I have to take out travel insurance in case of illness, why can't this apply to those landing in the UK ? If I presented myself at the dole office in Poland, would they pay for the house of my choice ? send me a load of money each week for doing sod all ? Would they look after my granny if I flew her over to get her corns done ? I know the answers and so do you.

It has to stop and the BNP are offering that leadership.
    There have been three different names posting on this IP. The primary person to use this IP was Russ Meyer. Henceforth, all messages on this IP other than those from Russ Meyer, will be deleted. We don't allow people to play games with identities here. I suggest that you may want to register and post as a member, since Guest postings are closely controlled.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 08:03 PM

"I think France got it right. Remember the riots a few years ago ? the government there care for their own."

Which Riots?

How does the French Government care for their own?


"Britain really has become a joke in the eyes of Europeans. It has become the walfare state feeding bowl of Europe for any Tom,Dick or Harry who fancies a free house, free medical care, free education and a free handout."

Where is your evidence?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 08:03 PM

According to the 2001 UK census, Hull had a population of 243,589. Of the total population 97.7% were white and the largest minority ethnic group was of 749 people who considered themselves to be ethnically Chinese. There were 3% of people living in Hull who were born outside the United Kingdom. In 2006 the largest minority ethnic grouping was Iraqi Kurds who were estimated at 3,000. Most of these people were placed in the city by the Home Office while their applications for asylum were being processed.

Also in 2001, the city had a high proportion, at 6.2%, of people of working age who were unemployed ranking 354th out of 376 local and unitary authorities within England and Wales.

Now, you can't really blame the people in paragraph one for the sad situation on paragraph two, can you? Even if you ethnically cleansed the entire city, Hull would still be buggered. Try blaming capitalism rather than your neighbours. Then try joining with them to fight for social justice.

Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 08:04 PM

'If I went to any European country on holiday I have to take out travel insurance in case of illness'

Well actually you don't!

The European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) can be used to cover any necessary medical treatment due to either an accident or illness within the European Economic Area (EEA).
The EHIC entitles the holder to state-provided medical treatment within the country they are visiting.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 08:06 PM

I remind you again that we do not allow personal attacks, even if you do not happen to like the political party that your opponent represents. Argue from facts, and keep personalities out of it. I'm watching this thread closely and deleting liberally.

In addition, please be aware that the BNP discussion will be confined to one, and only one thread. If there's a need for a new thread, establish a consensus in the current thread regarding the need for a new thread - and then let me know about it. I'll close the existing thread and then you can start the new one. Any BNP thread established outside this guideline, will be deleted or combined with the existing thread.

I sympathize with all the Mudcatters who oppose the BNP, and that is the vast majority of us. However, I can't allow this forum to be ruled by hysteria and personal attacks, even if the hysteria and personal attacks purport to support a noble cause. In my view, if you feel you must use bullying and other strongarm tactics to oppose the BNP, you're just playing the game by their rules - and you've already lost. If your messages contain bullying and strongarm tactics, your mesages will be deleted.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 08:13 PM

Travelling to Poland on holiday?

If you are an EU citizen (including British) you are entitleds to free health care.

Evidence here

"Medical facilities and standards of health care are good, but not many nurses or doctors speak English. It is advisable to have an European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) in case of a medical emergency. Free emergency treatment is available to visitors from the European Union and several countries with which Poland has signed international agreements (Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Russia and Serbia). EU nationals are required to produce a valid European Health Insurance Card (EHIC)"


Here's another useful link.

Poland - EU nationals free to enter and work without Visa


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 08:40 PM

But why would any Brit want to work in Poland?

Aren't they all trying to get out of a poor decaying weak ewconomy so they can sponge off us?

Isn't it true that they envy the strength and stability of the British economy?


Well maybe the reason why Poles are returning and why Brits might wish to work there is "At present Poland is the only Eastern European nation to avoid recession, with the economy growing by 0.8% in the first quarter."

Source


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 08:57 PM

Yes, the economic situation in Poland isn't very good, but there are a lot of interesting things happening there. There are lots of risks involved, but there are lots of opportunities. Poland is a beautiful, fascinating country. I could picture myself living there. If you're an entrepreneur or a good manager and you have what it takes to make a business a success, you might find opportunities in Poland that you wouldn't find anywhere else.

I've been there twice, and I want to go back again and see the western part of the country.

-Joe-


Oh, and the folk music and folk dancing are wonderful, especially in the Tatras. Hey, and it's the only place in Europe where the price of beer is still reasonable.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 03:19 AM

Ken / Russ Meyer / George Davis et al:

If I presented myself at the dole office in Poland, would they pay for the house of my choice ? send me a load of money each week for doing sod all ? Would they look after my granny if I flew her over to get her corns done ? I know the answers and so do you

Actually we do know the answers and you don't. Others have blown your medical entitlement claim out of the water.

As an EU citizen with an E101 card you would be entitled to Polish social security. Go to www.zus.pl and choose English (they like to make sure that we can access the entitlement information) and browse away.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 03:34 AM

The arguments for and against mass economic immigration seem to be the contentious factor in this discussion, but they are not being addressed.   People seem determined to make this an issue of racial bigotry...I have heard no one on this thread denigrate others because of their race.
Mr Griffin may be a racist but the the BNP members here seem to be arguing on specific issues. I hold Mr Blair and Mr Brown personally responsible for our completely illiberal and illegal attack on another nation and complicite in the deaths of perhaps a million people, yet I hear no abuse of people who still support the Labour Party!

Once again I smell a witch hunt on these pages!
I recognise only one racist on this forum, and that person is surely neither sane or British.

There is a part of the UK in which the society is so deeply divided that huge concrete walls have had to be erected between the different sections to keep them from shooting one another through their kitchen windows....yet no comment from the "liberals"....is it because both sections are "white" and not covered by current "liberal" dogma?

This thread is completely out of proportion to its importance, The UK will never become another "Reich" and you all know that very well,
times and methods of mass communication have changed...you are simply posturing...parading your "liberal credentials" before an easy target.

Why dont you wisen-up and start acting like real liberals, there are a host of causes which could benefit from your energy.....shame to waste it all on mutual masturbation......:0) Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 03:42 AM

The BNP have two MEP's - Griffin and Bron. Not four. In their voting regions the actual number of BNP votes fell.

The reason the Polish economy is not splattered (Joe, relatively it is doing better than the rest of Europe) is because they did not deregulate banks like the rest of Europe (and the USA).

The Polish land market however is being driven by speculators and developers who will soon destroy most of Poland's architectural heritage if they are not stopped.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 03:50 AM

Just as a footnote, I live near a small town on the Firth of Clyde, to which I travel daily on personal business and shopping,

I've noticed in the last few years a huge increase in numbers of Eastern Europeans who all appear to be members of large family groups.
Most of these immigrants are employed on very low paid jobs in local fish farms ect.....the wages offered by these employers woul hardly keep a single man never mind a man with a wife and small children.

Something just does not add up, this immigration was encouraged by the Blair government to "keep wage rates competitive in a global market", but obviously like other New Labour policies it has not been thought through....the cost of keeping those competitive wage rates are being more than cancelled out by benefit payments.

The economics of the madhouse!

This post is for information only!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 04:02 AM

Akenaton

The arguments for and against mass economic immigration seem to be the contentious factor in this discussion, but they are not being addressed


But the point is that this idea of "mass immigration" and "swamping" is a total fantasy. It isn't happening and that has been demonstrated by the production of evidence on several occasions in this and other related threads.

People seem determined to make this an issue of racial bigotry

But that is the issue. Proof has also been provided that the BNP is a racist and fascist party based on the German Nazi model. It lies about its ambitions and true policies (specific proof has already been given).

As I have said before, there is nothing wrong with being worried about immigration and social change but people need to bring those worries out for proper discussion. The proper response of a genuinely concerned decent person is not to vote for the next Adolf Hitler to be PM of our great nation.

This is about the BNP and how dangerous its ideas are. Some people think it is innocuous. Proof to the contrary is provided. Now if these supporters are "decent" they would be considering their position of support quite carefully. Yet they ignore all evidence and continue their support for what they now know to be a neo-nazi fascist party.

Therefore I do say that these people *are* racists and fascists. That is a fair and reasonable conclusion on the evidence of their own behaviour.

All their arguments are stripped away to the point there is only one conclusion left that explains their position.

There is a part of the UK in which the society is so deeply divided that huge concrete walls have had to be erected between the different sections to keep them from shooting one another through their kitchen windows....yet no comment from the "liberals"....is it because both sections are "white" and not covered by current "liberal" dogma?

That sentence should be in the past tense, referring to the situation in Northern Ireland. And the left/liberals were active in seeking an end to that as well. It took a left-ish conservative PM and a labour government to bring it to something approximating an end. There's little point discussing 20th Century history in the context of this thread.

This thread is completely out of proportion to its importance, The UK will never become another "Reich" and you all know that very well

No, this country will never become another Reich because most British people are decent and fair-minded and because enough of us will ensure that the BNP lies are exposed for their horrible reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 04:07 AM

Ake

Most of these immigrants are employed on very low paid jobs in local fish farms ect


In the Southeast of England we have a lot of Eastern European workers because local unemployed Brits see the work as beneath them. Farmers employ through agencies in Poland and often provide static caravans for worker-accommodation.

Most of the work is at, or slightly above, minimum wage. So unless your local fish-farmers are breaking UK law (min wage) then their migrant workers are getting what HM government considers a fair living wage for all adults on these isles.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 04:16 AM

Royston....thank you for responding civilly but,much of what you write is factually incorrect or exaggerated.
I don't have time to answer your all your points in detail, but have another look at the situation in Northern Ireland and you will see it is still very much a 21st century problem, its society as divided as ever, the "peace wall" still stands and sectarian murders on the increase again.

I tried to explain, the followers of any given party do not necessarily follow blindly the opinions of its leader.....we are all an amalgamation of many opinions some good some bad.
These opinions only become a danger to society when they are concealed under the label of something else.....as in... free speech/thought must be supressed in the name of Liberalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 04:34 AM

ROYSTON....Without wishing to be "offensive", have you ever tried to live on the minimum wage?.....if you are a young single man it might give you some quality of life....if you live with your parents!

If you are married with a couple of kids you take top-up benefits worth more in real terms than your wages(after deductions)....or starve!

Blairs policy of encouraging immigration as a way of cutting the National wage bill was indeed the economics of the madhouse, while at the same time encouraging bank the deregulation which led to our current economic collapse.

A "left leaning liberal government"......Dont make me fuckin' laugh!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM

Ake, I absolutely agree that free speech and thought must be defended otherwise we play into the hands of those who use suppression of ideas against us. That's why I'm against calling on the state to ban fascist organisations because historically those are same the powers the state readily uses to suppress dissent and radicalism. Ordinary people using their own power of thought, word and deed to oppose and expose fascism for what it is at a grassroots level is an entirely different matter. Part of the process is discourse and the battle of ideas. Personally I will use some of my own free speech to counter the views of divisive, authoritarian organisations who use their freedom of speech to promote themselves dishonestly in order further their visions of a fascist state. Luckily, we aren't in the position the Spanish found themselves in in the thirties and I agree that we are unlikely to be. Part of ensuring that is to continue to nip the ideas of the far right in the bud with better counter arguments...


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge on new desktop
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 04:52 AM

Actually, Ake, when I first got onto lecturing, by the time I had paid for my travel, and allowed for travelling time and preparation time, I was working for well below minimum wage.

But you miss the point. The workers you object to should be getting the same wage as anyone else on the minimum wage. Insofar as that minimum wage suffices for indigenous labour it likewise suffices for non-indigenous labour.

Family credit and so on assist on a means-tested basis, in general without regard to origin, which is again right.

You do however correctly identify that the taxpayer, via tax, subsidises the low-wage economy (so enabling employers to pay low wages) to the benefit of capital, so the government is playing Robin Hood in reverse - steal from the poor, give to the rich.

However, if you argue that guestworkers should not receive the same consideration as indigenes, then I regret to say that that appears to be a discrimination based on race.

Really must do some work - I was just adding another PC to the network and got sidetracked.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:00 AM

Some posts have depicted BNP members as 'knuckle-dragging skinhead thugs' or similar. I've never met a BNP member AFAIK but I did look at a video of some green conference on their website and they looked and sounded like intelligent professionals who would be an asset to any party.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:02 AM

Ake,

Don't make me regret responding civilly to you.

No I have never had to try, fortunately, living on the minimum wage. My point is that Eastern European workers cannot *legally* be treated any worse than an indigenous worker.

Lots of folk have to eke out an existence on minimum wage, my point is to ask why should we regard Polish min wage workers with suspicion? As you said that, for Polish workers "Something doesn't add up".

In my experience of living cheek by jowl with Polish migrants and counting a few of them as friends (some of the mudcatters have met at least one of my Polish friends and his wife and baby daughter), I would suggest that they come here for jobs they sourced through contacts or Polish agencies and have assistance from their employers with accommodation. Or they club together to live in close-quarters in cheap private-sector rented housing. Then they work bloody hard to improve their lot.

I thought I was being sarcastic enough in describing min wage as "What HM government considers fair..." I would be happy to be even less subtle in future; just let me know what you prefer.

I am not left-leaning or politically liberal, I am a socialist. I vote for socialist-values candidates whenever one is available to me - that is normally 'Left List' or Green Party. Otherwise I vote Liberal as the best of a bad lot. One thing I will agree on with many here is that Labour sold itself down the river in 1993/4 and should be ashamed to call itself "Labour"


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:17 AM

Richard come on! I agree with you on most things, but you know I did not mean immigrants or their families should be deprived of a living wage or benefits if they require them.
The problems are all symptoms of mad government policy which Blair was composing "on the hoof" in the days when he and the New Labour Project were seen as the saviours of humanity. In fact all they did this fine "left leaning liberal govt" was discredit us in the eye of world as bloodthirsty warmongers and saddle our children and grandchildren with a National Debt which will make their lives very unpleasant indeed, while Fuhrer Blair earns millions, is employed as a "peace envoy":0) and is being touted as the next president of the EU!!

Time to re-set your guns you mighty hunters after truth and justice....get you priorities right!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:22 AM

As far as I can see the point I made above about mad govt policy is the same as is being made by th BNP members on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:26 AM

Emma, wrong wrong wrong

"The European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) can be used to cover any necessary medical treatment due to either an accident or illness within the European Economic Area (EEA).
The EHIC entitles the holder to state-provided medical treatment within the country they are visiting."

It's a patch up job ONLY. Just checked, if you need a major operation,your heart packs in, you stroke and it could cost you a leg !

Facts my dear, always check first before posting.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 06:40 AM

Ake,

As far as I can see the point I made above about mad govt policy is the same as is being made by th BNP members on this thread.

But unlike the BNP members you haven't (I presume) concluded that the right medicine to heal the body-politic or a fractured society is a lethal dose of cyanide or the nuclear option (voting BNP).


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 06:49 AM

Well, ake, assuming that you DON'T mean that the immigrants should not get benefits to which eveyone else is entitled, then no, your policy is not the same as the BNP.

I hope your policy is "a living wage, and if necessary, a safety net from all". It doesn't read that way above.

AFAIK the BNP policy is "a living wage for white English and other similar racial groups as defined in our membership policy - but no others"

However, yes, the right-turns and lies of B. Liar were and remain sickening - but less sickening than the BNP, most of whom are knuckle-dragging unintelligent thugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 07:05 AM

Well Russ, I've been on the NHS website. Don't know what site you were on. The EHIC card entitles UK citizens to the same treatment in an EEA country as a resident of that country. So you are lying aren't you? If I have a heart attack in Romania I get the same state treatment as any other citizen of that country. It's all on the website.

In some EEA countries there are patient charges - like we have - for medicines, prosthesis, dentistry etc etc but these apply equally to us as they do to local citizens. UK citizens may be entitled to recover those in-country charges from the NHS on return to the UK.

We are entitled, for instance to go to Cyprus and have our teeth fixed (so long as we don't need dentures) at a flat-cost of EUR2 per visit. Bargain. A Cypriot coming here would have to pay our high NHS dentistry charges then recover the cost from his or her own government on return.

PROOF NHS WEBSITE

More to the point, we have reciprocal healthcare arrangements with a lot of non EEA countries.

Proof is on the link above. Below is a list of reciprocating countries.

Russ, how can it be that absolutley everything you ever say turns out to be untrue. Even on random pot-luck I'd have thought you might occasionally stumble upon a fact or two.

List of Non-EEA countries that have reciprocal healthcare arrangements with the UK: A-J
Anguila
Armenia
Australia
Azerbaijan
Barbados
Belarus
Bosnia and Herzegovina
British Virgin Islands
Croatia
Falkland Islands
Georgia
Gibraltar
Isle of Man

List of Non-EEA countries that have reciprocal healthcare arrangements with the UK: K-Z
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Macedonia
Moldova
Montserrat
New Zealand
Russia
St Helena
Serbia and Montenegro
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Turks and Caicos Islands
Uzbekistan
Ukraine


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 08:17 AM

Richard..my policy is that encouragement of immigration as a method of wage control is bad economically and bad socially, by that I mean the policy is sure to cause racial tension.

I've never read any of Mr Griffins speeches but I will take your word that he is a racist....that does not make anyone who supports any particular policy of the BNP automatically racist.

My policy would be misunderstood by many here as anti -immigration and therefore racist....but as an intelligent guy with a very good grasp of the machinations of politicians, I hope you personally understand that I am about as far from racism as it is possible to get.
One of my best friends in an area that almost completely "white" is a very dark skinned Indian from Goa.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:39 AM

Ake


"encouragement of immigration as a method of wage control"

Where is the evidence of this?



"As far as I can see the point I made above about mad govt policy is the same as is being made by th BNP members on this thread."


And the thing it has in common with their points is that it remains unsupported by any evidence.


Fairplay


"they looked and sounded like intelligent professionals who would be an asset to any party."


Are there any examples of this? so far the only examples provided here demonstrate the opposite.



Minimum wage is currently £5.70 an hour, set to go up to £5.80 in october.

40 hours a week and you earn £232 a week = 12,064 per year.

Add working tax credit and child tax credit ...


for a family with one working parent and one stay at home parent of two children with the above income this works out at

£5014.73


working and child tax credit calculator


Total income = £12,064 + £5014.73 = £17,078.73


If your earned income is less than £15,000 per annum you can also apply for asistance from housing benefit.


When I was on income support in London, I received around 17,500 a year in total icluding every type of benefit available including tax credit, child benefit, council tax benefit, housing benefit etc.

Thats in London.


A working family in London receiving the minimum wage could expect their housing allowance to bump their income up to around 20,000 a year.

Then there's child benefit etc which you receive regardless of your income.


The point is that you get more if you work and receive minimum wage than you do if you are on benefits.


A two parent family would not qualify for income support as only one is considered necessary to care for children - unless the working parent has already contributed significanty to their national insurance.- ie unless they have already been working for years.



Myth No. 2 - you get more for signing on than you do for working on minimum wage.

Ake - have you ever worked for the minimum wage? Have you ever survived solely on benefits?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:43 AM

The final point of my previous post is that a 2 parent family would not qualify to live off the state so that is also a Myth put about to create resentment.



For the purposes of this thread, I don't care who is or isn't a racist, but the views being shared on the subject of sponging immigrants on the one hand and the pointlessness of working on the other are unsupported and uninformed fiction.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:45 AM

So what is the incentive to work?


Your income will go up.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 10:45 AM

BTW

I would gladly contribute to a discussion on the failings of the Labour Government and would offer my pennorth on their shortcomings.


That however would be a different discussion.

This thread (as can be seen fairly explicitly in the title) is about the BNP.


It asked the question "why have they gained votes?" to which thwe first obvious answer is that they haven't.


Their supporters, ignoring this, then went on to argue that their support is due to the consequences of immigration.

They argue that immigration causes unemployment as migrants come and take British Jobs. They also claim that Migrants put a strain on the economy as they come here and sponge of the state.


There is no evidence to support these views.


Lots of evidence has been provided to refute these views.


So if these arguments have been dismantled so easily and repeatedly, what reasons are left to support the BNP?


Why cling on so tenaciously to a party whose view of Britain has been so clearly shown to be a fiction?


Why regurgitate views that have been disproved time and time again?


I'll tell you why - because when you hate people you will use any lie or excuse to be rid of them.


And the BNP and their supporters are full of hatred. They will cling on to their ideology and blame foreigners no matter what arguments or evidence are presented to them.

And they will lie to anyone that will listen, especially someone vulnerable to get their support and to try and get them to hate foreigners too.

We may like to think that we are so much better than the Germans of the 1930's or the Hutus of Rwanda or the Hans of Urumqi, or any other of a million ethnic groups that have at some point reached a criyical mass in terms of nationalist hatred of another group, but perhaps that is exactly what we need to be alert to.

We are all human and all capable of getting whipped up into a destructive frenzy and we must always be vigilant that our siciety does not make the same mistakes as before.

Democracy as we know it is a recent phenomenon.

The absence of war in western Europe is a recent phenomenon.

We live in politically luxurious times.

The only insurance that we have against the regression of society is our own participation in democracy.

Therefore we need to guard against Apathy and racist lies to ensure the longevity of our freedom.

The wolf is ever at our door and in this country one of its manifestations is the BNP.

We may not be happy with Lib Lab or Tory, but our current political reality is a million miles better than our ancestors of 60 years ago and before that.

The BNP represents a return to the Jungle.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:43 PM

Boing, said Zebedee.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 08:17 PM

Paco

Well said!

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 08:18 PM

Give me a nudge when this is all over, it's like listening to grass growing, pulling your own teeth out would be less painless than this thread.

We have had runs over the years that were boring, over worked, senseless, anti Irish, pro Irish, anti Bush, Martin Gibson, that stupid one about him with the rug on his head who appeared in Star trek and Michael Jackson.

This one wins hands down at insulting, swearing, cut & paste, breaking cat rules and people having to take their trousers down to talk.

Please give it a nice funeral and in doing so it will extend all our lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 08:24 PM

Lest we forget...

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 08:42 PM

I love the Magic roundabout.


I loved the film - dougal and the blue cat.


Remember?


Buxton the blue cat wanted everyone to be blue and if you weren't blue you had to go to prison.

There was a character called the Blue Voice who's line was "Blue is beautiful, blue is best. I'm blue, I'm beautiful, I'm best ..."


It was a superb way of teaching kids about both the absurdity and the cruelty of Fascism.


I remember at the age of 5 or 6 being extremely upset by this scene in particular, in which florence and her friends are imprisoned in the dungeons for not being blue.

Florence


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:31 AM

Richard's effective likening of BNP members to apes (knuckle-dragging) sounds like the biological racism that used to be directed against the Irish. This constant stream of insults, demonisation and dehumanisation is ever the totalitarian's prelude to mass murder. Quite a few here have hinted at just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:05 AM

So, just for the record, when all the BNP lies get shot down in flames with FACT, all they've got left is:

"Give me a nudge when this is all over, it's like listening to grass growing, pulling your own teeth out would be less painless than this thread."

And some people would vote for this????


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:26 AM

Lox....Your last pile of posts keep asking for evidence of political motives, well you must be very politically naive if you think political parties in power will attach an information sheet to their legislation explaining its true purpose.

Sometime, no matter how difficult it may be, we just have to use our brains....Politicians use code to disguise what they intend(another example of "Double think" or "Newspeak" and how "Liberal" govts use Orwellian methods to manipulate society), in this particular case, I think the phrase used all over the media was "we need to encourage immigrants to these shores in order that the UK can remain competitive in a Global Economy"

I repeat, immigration used as a tool to control wage rates is bad policy, in fact immigration used as a tool in any sense is always storing up trouble for the future. The immigration issue should be handled sensitively and thoughtfully.....something which seems quite impossible for polititians.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 04:05 AM

Even if all the copy-and-paste smears about BNP extremism were true, they would pale into insignificance in comparison with the prospect of demographic change facing Europe, especially where that has an Islamic dimension. England's major cities will cease to be predominantly English. Europe will not be the same place with different people.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 04:14 AM

even if?
They are, and they are far more of a threat to liberty and a decent way of life than the ethnic make-up of the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 06:14 AM

Even if...

Fairplay, what planet are you from? Copy and paste from the BNP manifesto. Video's of NICK GRIFFIN explaining IN HIS OWN WORDS his plans for lying about his true agenda until he gets into power. What more do you want?

Either you are stupid or you actually rather sympathise with Nick's "White power, send 'em all home on on the end of a boot" agenda. Grow the balls to be honest enough to tell us which you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 06:23 AM

fairplay, i don't think you and the rest of us are living in the same country!
i think that whatever drugs you are on, you need to stop man. they are clearly making you delusional and paranoid.

wow i never thought i would be telling anybody that!!

i can only think of one town that might seem like it has been 'swamped' but that has more to do with the local council placing restrictions on people and writing road signs in different languages than it does with the amount of immigrants there.

i can see why some people have a problem with those who do not try to learn the language, which is just bad manners really, but that problem is in reverse when any of the british or english go abroad too.


take care all

jade x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 06:43 AM

How many countries have or value liberty?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,William Kimber
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 07:16 AM

I just popped in to have a free reed . . . . ..


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 07:21 AM

Fairplay, If you have a point, then make it. Liberty is subjective, no society allows unfettered liberty. Anyway, how about answering the questions stacked up at your door before starting some new avoidance tactics.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 08:25 AM

"Lox....Your last pile of posts keep asking for evidence of political motives"

No - where people make claims or assert an opinion, I ask them to back up their opinion with evidence.

So far on this thread, the Anti BNP posters have provided a wealth of evidence to suppport their opinions.


The pro BNP posters have provided none.


Likewise, there has been no evidence provided to support the view that immigration is responsible for any legal reduction in wages, nor that it is responsible for unemployment, nor that Immigrants sponge off the state.

These things may happen, and if they do there will be examples/evidence.

In the absence of reliable evidence we can only conclude that such allegations are fiction.


There is a large gap between the two following statements.


"we need to encourage immigrants to these shores in order that the UK can remain competitive in a Global Economy"

and

"immigration used as a tool to control wage rates"


Their meanings are significantly different.


The government may have issued the first statement.


The second statement comes from you.

Your point of view is that the government uses immigration as a tool to bring wage rates down.

The government may spin or lie or sing nursery rhymes, but this has no bearing on whether or not your point of view is supported.

Do you have any evidence to suport your point of view?



"Sometime, no matter how difficult it may be, we just have to use our brains"

Thank you for that helpful advice - I'l bear it in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 08:58 AM

if the BNP managed to send all the immigrants away,they would still have economic problems.
the multi nationals would just relocate to where labour was cheapest.
multi nationals will also relocate[if they think it necessary to boost profit],to where they can get away with environmental abuse,and poor working conditions,and where they have to pay less tax,if the skilled work force is not there, they will then attempt to import a skilled workforce.
the policies of the BNP wil have no effect in sorting out the economic problems of Capitalism.
the multi nationals corporations are stronger than any political party including the BNP,
However they can be embarrassed, as Shell have been, by the internet.
focus on the proper enemy,the enemy is the system,not the immigrants.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 09:13 AM

how about answering the questions stacked up at your door before starting some new avoidance tactics.
I think we all now realise that it's BNP policy not to answer questions. Enough have been asked of BNP George, foulplay and the other sock-puppets here, and no answers have been given. They're intellectually and morally bankrupt, it would seem.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 09:45 AM

Their moral and intellectual bankruptcy is not their only problem GW (unfortunate initials, those LOL).

It seems to me their greatest challenge is their apparent lack of friends and supporters, a lack so overwhelming that they are forced to steal identities, and use them to invent fictitious support on a social networking site.

Billy-No-Mates is a social lion by comparison.

WHAT A JOKE THEY ARE!

The day of Griffin's funeral, they'll probably need to import labourers from some African village that's never heard of him, to carry his coffin.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 09:46 AM

OK, I give in. Mass immigration isn't happening and the country couldn't exist without it. Islam is good for women and gays. The BNP is totally insignificant and a huge threat. The UAF isn't violent or run by the SWP. I have now landed on Planet Madcap and am fully on message.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 09:58 AM

""I have now landed on Planet Madcap and am fully on message.""

NO! You haven't JUST landed. You've been there all along. Welcome to the REAL world, where England is being "swamped" by a total black and Asian contingent that is actually about 4.5 to 5.0 percent of the total population. CATASTROPHE? THE END OF CIVILIZATION AS WE KNOW IT?

NO actually. The jobs they have taken are the ones English people don't want to do for themselves.

I remember well the years when I couldn't get a pint of milk, or a loaf of bread, after 6.00pm.

My local corner shop stays open till 10.00pm.

What is the difference? Well it's run by a nice, hardworking Asian family, and very handy it is to have them available, with everything from food to fusewire. Washing up liquid to falling down liquid (booze).

They are making this country such an awful place to live in....NOT!

I'd say, on balance, better keep th immigrants.......AND DEPORT THE BNP!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 10:12 AM

Now we are making progress, Fairplay.

OK, I give in. Mass immigration isn't happening and the country couldn't exist without it. Islam is good for women and gays. The BNP is totally insignificant and a huge threat. The UAF isn't violent or run by the SWP. I have now landed on Planet Madcap and am fully on message

Mass immigration: you're right it is NOT happening. Not at least in any way that can be described as "mass", "unfettered" or "swamping".

Islam / Women: That some Muslims are misogynists does not make *Islam* or *all muslims* misogynistic. Because they dress and think differently to Europeans does not make *all muslim women* suppressed or down-trodden. If you took the trouble to get to know your Muslim neighbours you would see that family dynamics are pretty bloody similar to Europeans. Man of the house gets his ego massaged (if he's lucky) while everything gets done the way the missus wants it.

Islam / Gays: When was the last time you saw or heard a Muslim in the media, courts or press or on the streets of this country making life miserable for gays? Never, or rarely. However, the homegrown Aryan Christians - constantly banging on about hellfire, damnation and actively going to the courts for the right - THE RIGHT - to disriminate against gays in the provision of public services: The recent case of public sevants refusing to enable same-sex civil partnerships being just one example. So, yes I am pretty comfortable about my Muslim neighbours on that front; they are entitled to their private views and they keep them pretty private.

BNP: Insignificant now, but a real growing danger if left unchecked.

UAF: Not violent - you keep alluding to this violence but you never give an example. Because there isn't one. I don't regard throwing eggs at Griffin as violent. UAF is not run by the SWP. There are a lot of stakeholders, the largest is the UCU and the long list of unions that support it via the TUC. Most left wing political figures and activists have their roots in SWP. So do I. I left it about 15 years ago because I disagreed with it. What IS your point?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 10:20 AM

Ask a Moslem woman if Islam is good for women ...


Then provide evidence of UAF aggression.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 11:23 AM

I don't know whether you would class this as "evidence", but all I can do is cite acouple of cases from my locality.
You misrepresented me by saying.."Your point of view is that the government uses immigration as a tool to bring wage ratesdown"..when what I actually said was "the govt encourages immigration to control wage rates"....as you may know it is illegal to force workers to except less than the minimum wage.

I mentioned earlier about the many fish farms round here who pay the minimum wage, they used to employ local workers on the minimum wage...which is basically starvation wages.
The fish farm company decided to keep the minimum wage rate yet increase the number of hours worked for some and bring in short term contract work for others....this being advantageous to the farm company financial terms, but means that the workers were left with less money at the end of the week.

A dispute started which ended with some of the workers leaving and the rest returning to work on the new terms.
The shortfall in staff is made up by bussing in 25 Eastern European workers daily from the nearest town....by public transport of course subsidised by the taxpayer.

The most common other cases are in the building trade.
A local developer had run short of cash and applied to an agency which suppies Polish building workers at £10 per hr, far below the daywork rate for a local tradesman.....the job took months to complete....in fact it was never properly finished as the Polish gang disappeared before completion.
I was asked by the developer to finish the job and on inspection I found it to be a real "botch up" the workers involved were obviously not tradesmen. I finished the job to the best of my ability but much of the work will need to be undone.
The deveoper is very angry, but as I said to him,"did you really expect to get a decent tradesman for £10 per hour?

This scenario is occuring on quite a large scale in Scotland.

I also know quite a lot about the Asian community especially in Glasgow, who are indeed very hardworking, but the problem my Goan friend tells me is a social one.....the Asians have no intention of integrating with the indigenous Glasgow people whom they see as people of low morallity, given to drunkeness, violence and godlessness, in fact, as you "liberals" would say they are bigotted against the Scots.

I expect you to start a new thread complaining about this forthwith!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 11:38 AM

Royston. "BNP: Insignificant now, but a real growing danger if left unchecked."

I don't think it's possible to overstate the growing danger of the BNP, and of the other European fascist parties. At the moment, the BNP consists of a hard core of several hundred nutters, with proven unpleasant fascist credentials. They are surrounded by a much larger coterie of politically naive and largely passive members. Most of this lot appear to be little more than card carriers, and I'd guess that an awful lot of them are in fact lapsed members. Their electoral successes have been few and minimum. They have taken a number of council seats, with a high proportion of re-election failures; they won two seats in the Euro elections, purely because the Labour vote collapsed; and in the Norwich North by-election they were right down there with the lunatic fringe, on just 2.74% of the vote.

On current performance therefore, the BNP is highly dismissable as a gang of right wing lunatics who will never pose a threat to anyone.

The problem is that Griffin and co know perfectly well they will never get elected to government via constitutional means. They are in fact merely marking time until they can acheive their ends by unconsitutional means.

Their theories are founded on a combination of nazi white supremacism and something called survivalism. This is an idea, which started going the rounds of the far right about thirty years ago, namely that western society is decadent and doomed and headed for collapse. The BNP's take on this is the collapse will be brought about by a combination of economic chaos, oil shortages, climate change, and mass civil disorder. In other words they are planning to claw their way into power on the back of the same kind of socio/economic nightmare which was 1920s Germany.

How far their prognosis will prove correct of course is anybody's guess, but I would certainly tick at least two of those boxes. In other words there's worrying time ahead, and if they ever acheive their aim, then God help us.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 11:57 AM

Ake, I think your last post is a long way beneath your intellect

the Asians have no intention of integrating with the indigenous Glasgow people

Define your "integration". Do you want a Muslim to start drinking alcolhol or if, a woman, to start getting her tits out for the lads on a Friday night? A presbyterian or baptist Christian (both churches prevalent in Scotland) would be a lot closer to the Muslims in their views of society than many secular scots. So why do have to single out Muslims for some extraordinary expectation that they should have to become a brown-skinned facsimile of a working-class white folk? Do you not see that your mind is running on a set of racist preconceptions?

So one builder got a load of cheap Poles to bugger up a job. What about the crap English that have buggering up jobs in greater numbers for a longer time. In the last year I've had my car repaired after an accident, new fences put in and trees cut back, and the whole house decorated...by Poles...and compared to *some* of the crap British contractors I've endured over the years, they've all been a bloody breath of fresh air.

Again we see your preconceptions. To you there just has to be one "bad" Pole, Muslim, African etc etc and you think you've got "the lot of them worked out". We all know there are crap builders all over the world. I have found - as have a lot of people - that Eastern Europeans have skills and work ethics that are lacking in this country; that's why they have come here and that's why they have been largely succesful here.

By the way, you said that a private employer employed these Poles through a private agency and they took public transport to work. What on earth was your point about public subsidy? What...fare-paying foreigners should be excluded from public transport. Ake, are you taking us back to southern USA apartheid now?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 12:24 PM

i think what ake was trying to get at is that SOME of the immigrants that live in this country don't try to learn the language or try to make conversation when sitting on a bus, whatever. someof them don't invite the nieghbours to join their kids in paddling pools,or round for tea.

please don't shout at me saying that there are white folks like this, I KNOW THAT! but i think it maybe is more obvious when an immigrant does it, don't ask me why, but it seems to be.

when any group of people try to make their own comunity(?) others always feel on the outside of it, i wonder if this is why there is a seemed devide?

i might not be able to understand someone very well but am alaways happy when someone makes the effort to talk to me.

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 12:55 PM

Excellent my dear, you *are* becoming a real liberal and a bit of a star into the bargain.....:0)
Royston you are pathetic! I made it clear that the statement was made by my Indian friend who has many aquaintances in the Asian community

The story about the cheap workers was to provide a bit of evidence requested by Lox....I am well aware that there are cowboy workers in Britainthe point is that these people were vetted by an agency and prepared to work for much less than UK tradesmen....This is relatively common in Scotland don't sound so surprised.
The fact that they happened to be Poles is incidental they could have been any nationality of immigrants prepared to work for less money than locals.
I was answering Lox's point about wage rates and Don T's point about multiculturalism. The rest of your post is abusive nonesense.

What a joke! you ask me for evidence that the immigration encouraged by Blair and Co affected wage rates, and when I do so you brand me a bigot!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:16 PM

I'm the kind of gobby sod that will start up a conversation with just about anybody, on just about any subject.

I talk to people, and if they indicate that they are not interested, I drop it.

I'd have to say that the proportion of Asians, Muslims, Jews, Christians, whatever, who are prepared to interact is roughly the same, whatever their origins.

Muslim women, are ill treated in my experience, just about in the same proportion as Christian women, and never make the mistake of believing that all muslim women wearing the Burka, are forced to do so.

In fact the reverse is true. Most muslim women are brought up to a degree of modesty that white women have not seen since pre World War One, and covering up is natural to their way of life.

The number that are oppressed is most likely about equivalent to the number of battered white women. The point is that bad news being good news for the Media, those are the ones you hear about.

As for integrating into Scottish society, wouldn't that be better left until AFTER you integrate all the Rab C Nesbitt clones, who have as yet not been assimilated?

Meanwhile try a little old-fashioned "Live and let Live".

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:16 PM

From: akenaton - PM
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:26 AM

Paragraph 3

" ... immigration used as a tool to control wage rates is bad policy ..."

Maybe you misrepresent yourself.



I'll come back to the rest later.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:33 PM

here is something interesting.
the irish government has spent 150 thousand euros deporting an asylum seeker to Ghana,plus 36 thousand deporting a Georgian man in march,a total of 1 .2 million was spent deporting 264 people since the start of 2008.
that is 1.2 million,that could have been spent on the health serviceand other social services.
plus the millions they have wasted on useless electronic voting machines.
has the BNP thought what the cost would be of deporting all the people they consider undesirable,or would they indulge in a bit of ethnic cleansing.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:47 PM

No, Ake, you don't get away with that.

IF you were just making a point about wage-rates then you would have stopped the story at the local developer who employed people at £10/hr, a lot less than the "going rate".

But you chose to carry on with a load of stuff about the quality of work and you made a fatuous comment about them being subsidised by the taxpayer when, in fact, you just meant that they travelled on a public bus, like everyone else. So what is your point again Ake?

Then on the issue of your celebrated Goan friend, this "integration" is clearly something close to your heart because you chose to offer this as criticism of Glasgow Asians. Why should they not be entitled to be clean-living, alcohol-free, religious people? Go on Ake, why not? I love my drink - fine wine and real ale - but I am rarely drunk, never violent, never antisocial. I look down on town-centre yob & drinking culture. Most people do. So what's your point Ake?

Then, most wonderful of all, having established (doh!) that Muslims and some other asians don't like drinking and loutish behaviour - YOU made the link that these asians must therefore be prejudiced against Scots: so YOU ascribe these attributes to all Scots do you Ake?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:51 PM

Royston and Don .....You seem to have absolutely no problem denigrating British steriotypes yet become incadescent over perceived steriotyping of foreign nationals.....How curious!

Lox.... "control wage rates"is correct.... you said "lower wage rates" something, which for most low paid workers, is impossible.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:12 PM

The point I was making is that on under the minimum wage people travelling to work would never be able to afford the forty mile bus fare, the fact that it is heavily subsidised allows them to do so, while locals club together in cars.
In other words the taxpayer subsidy is assisting in the undercutting of local labour.....nothing to do with racism or Southern segregation
I can't believe you really said that...and meant it.

You Royston were the one who started making disparaging remarks about British women    "Do you want a Muslim to start drinking alcolhol or if, a woman, to start getting her tits out for the lads on a Friday night?"

I dont denigrate Glasgow Asians for their lifestyle, but they obviously do not want to integrate for the reasons my friend has given!


Who *are* the bigots here!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:14 PM

No Ake, you don't get away with that either.

Show one instance where I have set up ANY stereotype to be denigrated.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:20 PM

British women are prepared to get their tits out on a friday night!

I think you're just living in hope Royston!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:22 PM

Ake,

the question by me:

"Do you want a Muslim to start drinking alcolhol or if, a woman, to start getting her tits out for the lads on a Friday night?"

Says nothing about any person or group of people. I asked it in response to your suggestion that Asians were somehow not integrating because they disapproved of drunken and "immoral" behaviour. My question is, and was, what do you want asians to do, that they might qualify as "integrating". I over-estimated you.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:28 PM

Crap British builders with an inadequate work ethic??

and dont think I'm letting you off with that last cop out!... I know what you meant :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:32 PM

Jeddy won't like you talkin' about young ladies "tits" either :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:34 PM

OK Ake, you've caught Royston making ONE throwaway comment, which a purist such as yourself might consider denigratory.

But you said Royston and Don.

Where do you feel you've achieved a moral elevation relative to me?

As far as I am aware, the only adverse comment I have made on this thread relates to the BNP, and with respect, I would insist that nothing I have said could possibly denigrate that filthy crowd.

Based on their own words and actions, there would seem to be little or nothing that could be said to make them look worse than they actually ARE.

And, those who support them, no matter how you rationalise it (and rationalisation is YOUR speciality), must be aware of the obnoxious aims and objectives of those they support, and are therefor tacitly agreeing to a fascist, and racist doctrine.

No way out Ake. Lie down with dogs, and you get fleas.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:35 PM

Ah'm away fur ma tea noo ...jist gie me a shout if the smellin' salts work....:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:36 PM

No Ake,

You introduced the crap polish builder, I introduced the existence of *SOME* crap British builders I've come across. I was extremely careful about that, go back and read it again Ake.

What you *THINK* you know (in response to your "I know what you meant" comment) is largely irrelevant and certainly a product of your *apparent* tendency to see the world in "nudge nudge" stereotypes; it is nothing to do with my arguments or carefully chosen words.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:38 PM

Don,

OK Ake, you've caught Royston making ONE throwaway comment, which a purist such as yourself might consider denigratory

He certainly has not!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:42 PM

OK,

I don't need to ask any Goan friends for opinions on the views of Asians.

First of all, when you talk about Asians I presume you mean people from the Indian sub continent as opposed to Chinese, Japanes, Thai, Vietnamese or any of the other groups of Asian immigrants in the UK.

Second of all, when you talk about people from the Indian sub-continent, do you mean Pakistanis, Indians or Bangladeshis?

Thirdly, are you talking about Moslems, Hindu's, Sikhs or (in the case of many Goans) Roman Catholics?

Lets narrow it down to the "Moslem Community" for the sake of argument.

Firstly, it should be noted that Goa is a primarily Roman Catholic and Hindu region, so I would venture that your friend isn't a Muslim - would I be right?

regardless of this I would still have no need to give him pride of place as any kind of expert witness.

As you may have noted from threads on this subject that I have contributed to in the past, I spent many years Living in Leicester.

Leicester contains the largest South Asian demographic outside London.

During my time in Leicester, I spent a year and a half living on Bridge road, which is a side road next to the intersection between East Park Road and Green Lane Road.

This area of Leicester is known for being populated almost exclusively by people with their origins in the Indian sub-continent.

This includes 2nd and 3rd generation "British - Asians", the ancestors of whom come from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh as well as Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania.

It also includes recent Immigrants from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

There are numerous Mosques, Hindu Temples and Sikh Temples.

I would sometimes see no white faces for days at a time except when I went to work or into town.

What was their collective homogenous political viewpoint?

Well lets start with the Muslims ...

... well they didn't share the same opinions on anything ... they were like you and me - they all had their own opinions and disagreed vehemently with each other just as you and I do, and they were all intelligent and informed as you and I are, and some of them were rich and some poor and some Labour and some Tory ...

One example was two shops that existed on opposite sides of the same street.

One of them sold a drink called Qibla Cola.

I was informed that Qibla-Cola was being produced as a deliberate way of undermining the hold of Coke and Pepsi on the local cola market.

It was a politically motivated product that offered an alternative to the discerning Moslem.

The shop on the oher side of the road sold Coke and Pepsi. When quizzed, the proprieter told me that the Qibla is the name of the sacred Black stone in Mecca and that he viewed Qibla-Cola as a cynical and blasphemous exploitation of a culturally sensitive and religiously significant icon.

I knew the names of every kid on my street and their parents and they knew me - it was like a Hovis Advert but the Families were all from the Indian subcontinent whether directly or indirectly.

My neighbours and friends in the area were warm hearted generous honest kind people who I will always remember with fondness.

When I was in court over custody of my little girl, the entire street was prepared to come and testify on my behalf.


Now!!



Here's the point.

When I went into town and spoke to white Leicester folk, I often heard the criticism that they isolate themselves and don't integrate and think they're better and ...

... basically all the stuff that your expert witness apparently told you about the "asian" community in scotland.


Like you, the people I heard it from did not live there and never went there but shared second hand testimony gleaned from Asian Mates


There was a shop three doors down from my house that was run by a man called Shabir and his Wife Shahida, They had tw daughters called Mariam and Hadra who played with my little Girl.

Why did they bringg their kids to work?

Because they lived in a white area and couldn't play outside their home without receiving abuse.

They were 6 and 4 respectively at the time.

They had Shit put through their letterbox, they had "Al Qaeda" painted on thheir Garden wall, they had eggs thrown at them ... etc etc etc ...


They never once showed me any resentment for being one of "them" but were in fact extremely happy that they could show their kids evidence that white people aren't all so cruel.


This testimony is my honest truthful experience in a very restrictive nutshell, curtailed mainly by the need to go and make dinner.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,stringsinger
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:40 PM

They may have increased their votes but they will never
represent the British people in their diversity. It's kinda' like Sarah Palin, here. There are the hard-core followers and the people
who sort of laugh at the silliness of it all.

The British Nationalist Party has to remain conclusively
a oxymoron. It's kind of like the moral majority here, neither moral or a majority.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:49 PM

Agree with you entirely, Frank. Except for one important point that I raised right at the start of this overlong thread. The number of people voting for the BNP didn't increase, it decreased. The problem is that people stayed away from the polling stations in droves and the votes for the other parties decreased even more. They got in as a result of increased abstention, not increased votes. Now, I'm a bit of a fan of the old anarchist motto, "Don't vote, it only encourages them," but the downside of this is it assists some quite unpleasant specimens to slither out from under the stones. A few more votes for the Green Party (one of the only vaguely socialist parties in the UK) then we'd have a very different story in the north west of England.

Happy birthday, by the way. I always enjoy your posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 04:15 PM

ake, :)

nice post lox,

it is awful that kids of every skin colour and every nationalilty can't play out all together.
if left to the kids themselves i don't think there would be a problem.

after all how much language is needed for tag or kerbie?

it seems to be us adults( and for myself i use the term very loosly) that seem to have the problem. some people think tht walking past a group of teenagers is threatening, but when you think about it they are just hanging out. this is the same for any group of people, it is the them and us thing. at festies it is folkies and locals. in inner cities it is still them and us.you will always have it, but we should try to make it decent people and wankers WHATEVER colour of nationalilty they happen to be.

if someone doesn't talk to me i tend to think of them as a snob or above chats no matter what the skin colour.
we have never been afraid to go into shops run by asians, or anyone else. the thing that gets me no matter what, is the loss of manners. if someone smiles at you it is polite to smile back.

i am not above making assumptions about people, no matter where they come from, we all do it but it is on what grounds we are judging someone that makes the difference.

i understand why if you are in a diferent country you would want to stick with those who are similar to you and speak your native tongue. we are all programmed to seek out others who are the same as us, the hard bit is trying to get out of the habit!


oh yes... tits while i like them, i do prefere them on someone who has a modicum of self respect!   i too look down on those who go out get bladdered and get into trouble. i don't mind the odd flash but when sober please so you can at least remember who you have done it to!

ithink that both me and my other half were born one generation too late, as we seem to have the morals of our elders.. *dig* :)

it might seem like i am backtracking but i am trying to understand the way i look at things.

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 04:20 PM

"if someone smiles at you it is polite to smile back."

In our culture ...


Something my Greek friends constantly find hilarious to the point of tedium is the British tendency to sa "sorry" at just about every given opportunity ...

... sorry can I get that basket, sorry but do you know where the toilets are etc etc etc ...

... Something that has always worked for me no matter who I am talking to or where has been making eye contact and being polite and friendly.

Every now and then you meet someone with a problem, but they do not fall into racial or cultural categories.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 04:44 PM

Don T

I'm with you. Immigration policy should be based on shopping convenience.

Fairplay on Planet Madcap


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 04:53 PM

see now why can't i sound that concise and to the point?

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 04:58 PM

sorry if that was a little short lol, or maybe hehehe.

j x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 05:02 PM

How Ironic that fairplay, an advocate of English nationalism, should be so utterly inept at English comprehension.

Maybe that's the problem - these foreigners with their good educations are showing him up.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 05:46 PM

""I'm with you. Immigration policy should be based on shopping convenience.

Fairplay on Planet Madcap
""

If you are trying to prove that you are a toatal fool, congratulations. It's working.

The shopping isn't the point. The propensity for working hard, paying their way, and fitting very easily and usefully into the local community, entirely contrary to the stereotype presented by yourself and others, THAT'S the point you clown.

The only good thing about your posts on this thread is the fact that youy submit consistently as a member, and not as an anonymous guest. If you can learn to weed out some of the racist drivel, that might help.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 03:08 AM

Is there either point or meaning to the recent posts above ?
Name calling, lies and back slapping is all I see. I don't think I have ever read such a load of * in my life.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 03:17 AM

Aye, plenty of lies. All of them from the BNP sock-puppets. Care to answer any of the questions? Oops! Sorry, I forgot; the BNP refuses to answer questions, doesn't it "Russ"?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 04:21 AM

I have to agree with Gervase, Russ. You've come here, rolled out a few tired bits of old racist claptrap, had it all blown away with evidence, refused to answer any of the questions and now all you've got left is to complain that the subject was allowed to be discussed.

Well, this is why the BNP vote is reducing and its why it will continue. All you've got, Russ, is a thin tissue of lies over your corrosive prejudice and malice towards those different to you. You are easily exposed as a sham and you have nothing of substance or of value with which to counter the removal of your lies.

Whatever the arena in which the BNP chooses to try to sell its poison (like trying to appopriate folk music and dance) there will be plenty of decent and intelligent folk (like the FaF member) ready to shove it straight back at you!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:20 AM

has anyone else heard of this gay mass shooting in ....televive(?) i think i could be wrong. i just caught a headline so i am not sure.

this is the sort of thing the BNP will approve of, cleansing the world of undesirables.

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 08:30 AM

in answer to the original poster.
disillusionment with the main parties,economic hardship,lack of understanding that the BNP policies,will not produce an economic revival.
it would appear that the BNP has not gained votes,but that other parties votes were down,whereas the small support of the BNP remained static,so that could be interpreted as apathy or people refusing to vote as a protest.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 08:53 AM

Not sure Jade, but there was a shooting in Tel Aviv.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 08:59 AM

that's the one. i knew there was a V in there somewhere. anyone know of any details yet?

jade x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:36 AM

From Reuters "Israel's gay community was rocked on Sunday by the killing of two people in a homosexual and lesbian youth centre and the possibility they fell victim to a hate crime in the Jewish state's most freewheeling city.

"The biggest shock is to think that it happened in Tel Aviv, which is the most tolerant city in the country.

Witnesses said a masked gunman clad in black opened fire on Saturday night in a basement club belonging to the Tel Aviv Gay and Lesbian Association, which was hosting a weekly event for teenage gays.

The attacker killed a 26-year-old man and a 16-year-old girl and wounded 13 people before fleeing, hospital officials said.

"He simply fired all over the place," Or Gil, 16, told the YNet news website. "At first I thought it was prank, or a toy gun. After the killings, it was quiet, completely silent and then people came to help the wounded."

Police said they were still searching for the attacker and that the shooting was not an anti-Israeli attack by a Palestinian but gave no other details, citing a court order banning publication of details of the investigation.

Tel Aviv Mayor Ron Huldai said the motive for the shooting was still unclear.

If the incident proves to be a hate crime, it will mark the most serious attack against the gay community in Israel's history.

Condemning what he called a "horrific killing," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told his cabinet: "We are a tolerant, democratic country governed by the rule of law and we must respect each and every person."

GAY PRIDE

Although coastal, cosmopolitan Tel Aviv has a bustling gay scene, open homosexuality is less welcome in conservative areas.

Annual gay pride parades in Jerusalem meet with often violent protests from ultra-Orthodox Jews, who view homosexuality as an abomination against God.

Four years ago, an ultra-Orthodox Jew stabbed three parade participants in Jerusalem. They survived. The attacker is serving a 12-year prison term.

Nitzan Horowitz, an openly gay legislator, said he had no doubt there was a connection between the latest killings and what he termed incitement against the gay community in Israel.

"We demand that the government put an end to this hate campaign and that the Education Ministry institute proper information and education at schools in order to prevent the recurrence of such shameful events," Horowitz said.

Despite anti-gay sentiments among some religious Jews in Israel, gays serve openly in the military. Israel accords same-sex couples a measure of legal recognition and cohabitation rights, though Orthodox religious authorities control formal nuptials in the country.

An 18-year-old woman, who gave her name only as Alona, said she ran outside at the sound of gunfire.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:39 AM

Would all right thinking people who live in areas of England that have had their area swamped by mass immigration, please leave this thread now. Then the remaining Guardian readers can continue to preen and massage each other in private.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,William Kempe
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 11:01 AM

Quote - NO actually. The jobs they have taken are the ones English people don't want to do for themselves.

But us English wouldn't work at those poor wages, and quite rightly so when we have mortgages and families to feed !
If we were given opportunities to do the same work in a different country for approximately 5x the wages we'd receive at home, I'm sure we'd all jump at the chance . .


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 11:23 AM

i never thought i would be saying this but.. thanks russ. i never thought to look for myself, i am still getting used to this pc lark.
well, that plus i am bloody lazy!!

jade x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 11:28 AM

Paco Rabanne said: "Would all right thinking people who live in areas of England that have had their area swamped by mass immigration, please leave this thread now. Then the remaining Guardian readers can continue to preen and massage each other in private."

Please share with us your evidence of "swamping"... And then let us know what your definition of "swamping" is. At least we'll have a clear idea what's going on in your head.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 11:31 AM

No, problems Jade, glad to help.

Paco Rabanne, I'm with you on that one, as I said earlier, leave them to slap eachother on the back. Sounds like you live in an area much like my own. Did you ever reflect back twenty years and look at your area now ? I know I do and it bloody angers me.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 11:34 AM

Why does it anger you? What exactly is it that angers you? How has this mysterious thing that angers you affected you? You and Paco seem to be talking in code...


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 11:36 AM

No, problems Jade, glad to help
Hey "Russ", while you're in such a helpful mood, how about some answers to the questions about the BNP?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 11:46 AM

i think the running down of areas has more to do with bad tennants and lack of facilities than it does with the skin colour or race of the folks who move in.
have you never watched those tv programmes, where all was nice, quiet and friendly until a familiy of thugs and yobs moved in? with parents who don't care what their kids get up to, don't care who they annoy or hurt?   
theses are the people you should be annoyed at. these are the people that have brought alot of misery to housing estates accross the country.
it has nothing to do with religon, race, or colour, only morals. they are something that seems to be lacking in modern society.
sure there are a few of us who hold doors open, say thankyou when called for, who give up seats for the elderly on public transport.i know you will say these are just manners but they are also the mark of respect when dealing with another human being.

take care all

jade x x x x

p.s it is nice to know that there are people who appreiciate common sense when it is spoken. so this is not a back slapping thread it is simply saying i agree. x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 01:08 PM

What's the problem with women having a jolly drink and getting amorous or demonstrative? Goose, gander?

I can see the problem with people getting violent when drunk (or at any other time), but that's different.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 02:53 PM

there is nothing wrong with having a great time, but i think it is a matter of dignity, of who you flash.

i just think it is demeaning when lasses go around doing it to whoever asks.
don't get me wrong, i get the urge to flash too and i am no prude, though i admit i might sound like it.

i will be away for abit, pleae don't kill each other and i will catch up when i can.

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 03:58 PM

""Would all right thinking people who live in areas of England that have had their area swamped by mass immigration, please leave this thread now.""

So that'll be the last we hear from you then, Senor Rabid.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 04:51 PM

"What's the problem with women having a jolly drink and getting amorous or demonstrative?"


Absolutely nothing.


By the same token, is there anything wrong with not doing so or not wishing to participate in this aspect of British culture?


No of course not.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:18 PM

I've followed Mudcat for some years, but not for the BS. Assumptions have been made about my affiliations, but I have none. I believe there is evidence for everything I have alluded to. I will try to provide it. I don't speak for anyone but myself. I will try to present this dispassionately, and I hope, accordingly, that it will be considered without insult or threat...


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:21 PM

"Sounds like you live in an area much like my own. Did you ever reflect back twenty years and look at your area now"

What area are you talking about?

Paco lives in hull ... beverley apparently ... a place where you very rarely see a non-white face.

And he wants to lecture those of us who live in the inner cities about urban realities ...


... So unless you live in La La land ... hmmm ...


William Kempe,

"But us English wouldn't work at those poor wages, and quite rightly so when we have mortgages and families to feed"

Not actually true, we'll do other jobs for the minimum wage - its the nature of the work that we don't like.



Paco,

"Would all right thinking people who live in areas of England that have had their area swamped by mass immigration, please leave this thread now. Then the remaining Guardian readers can continue to preen and massage each other in private."


You apparently live in Beverly in hull.

Described by the Lonely Planet travel guide as follows:

"Handsome, unspoilt Beverley is one of the most attractive of Yorkshire towns largely on account of its magnificent minster – a rival to any cathedral in England – and the tangle of streets that lie beneath it, each brimming with exquisite Georgian and Victorian buildings.

Last updated: 17-Feb-2009"

This certainly confirms my memories of the place.

But you were telling us about life in the inner cities ...

... while you're would you mind picking up a copy of the Guardian for me for the morning - it probably sells a lot more copies up your way than it does round here ...


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:23 PM

"I believe there is evidence for everything I have alluded to. I will try to provide it."

... yawn ... hmmph ... how many months is it since you were first asked? ...

... happy hunting.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:34 PM

Fairplay,

Your first post was made on         12-Jun-09 - 07:35 AM.

The only posts you have ever made have been to do with pro/anti BNP politics.

You have never participated in any folk thread.


The evidence is that you are here solely to push a BNP agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:40 PM

To add to my last post,
here is a link to Fairplays posting history.

You will note that he did contribute to a thread entitled "Motley Morris Banned", but only to say the following.

"I can't imagine anyone singing John Barleycorn or Lovely Joan under Sharia law. How much are we going to suppress English culture to accomodate the cultures of others?"

So we see the BNP agenda being pushed again.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:57 PM

Lox

Make up your mind!

I never came here to push an agenda - I've merely responded to the postings of others. It's called free speech. Can you dispense with the personal attacks now?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 06:11 PM

So, fouplay, how about some comments or posts about music? In case you hadn't noticed with your head in the BNP sewer, this is a music forum.
An any chance of any answers to the questions about the BNP?
Sorry, I forgot. I'm wasting my breath expecting honesty, candour and decency from the likes of you, "Russ" and BNP George aren't I?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 06:33 PM

"I never came here to push an agenda - I've merely responded to the postings of others."


You initiated the thread about Billy Bragg and the BNP.

In addition, It was your first ever posting on the Mudcat.


To refresh your memory click here

So to clarify ... Your first ever posting on mudcat was in defence of the BNP and it was on a thread initiated by you and not in response to anyone elses post.

Since then every other post you have made has been in defence of the BNP, has advocated BNP policies or has attempted to propagate BNP lies.

The evidence is in the link I have provided.

Now would you mind providing evidence of any personal attacks I have made?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:32 PM

Thread drift setting in:

On the subject of the emancipation of women surely women should be free (if so wishing) to flaunt themselves. I find it more worrying that they should be indoctrinated into hiding themselves, or being servants of men, but Islam is far from being the only religion that has had (if it has: I am no Koranic scholar or Talmudist, but am inclined to the view that "holy men" of all kinds have a bad record in re-interpreting the roots of thier faiths) the repression of women on its agenda. Even, however, if it were, that would be no reason to wish to expel followers of that religion, rather one to encourage them to stick around and maybe see the light. In fact most organised religions have some form of repression firmly built into the organisation.

Flirtatious behaviour and drinking are not compulsory, but the current western cultural assumption that women are principally to be measured by their sexual attractiveness is probably a bad thing, musically, politically, and socially.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:39 PM

And back to the central theme.

The description of the BNP as knuckle-dragging Neanderthals may well be unfair to Neanderthals, but is in no way similar to the depictions (usually by nazis like the BNP) of Blacks, Jews, or (parhaps by extension the Irish - or, curiously, in German-speaking cultures Friesians (not the cows)) as biologically inferior. One's nationality or regionality (by descent) or race are not matters of choice. One's politics are.

Is there any other political party whose supporters make it a prevalent practice to impersonate and (by implication and sometimes expression) to threaten opponents? Do tell, oh supporters of white racial superiority.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 08:50 PM

i think i said goodbye a little bit too early, but normally you lot are all in bed or at least not posting this time of night.
back to the thread drift for moment.

like i said i am sounding like a prude. you are right that it is up to the individual what she does with her own body. of course it is her right to wear and behave how she wants to, providing she is hurting no one.
this is just my opinion. i just think it cheapens and dehumanises(?) any woman that feels the need to it just because the lads want her to or feels that it is the only way someone will pay her attention.
i feel the same with peope who get drunk and sleep around. thses women are worth more than that.

if women feel the urge to this for no other reason then i think good on ya.

back on thread.

the neanerthals were clever and ingenius people, who knew alot more than we do about how to survive and not use abuse the things that gave them life.
how can we compare them to the unthinking nazi, thugs? maybe we can call them slugs? as i see no purpose for them. or maybe leeches?
or ticks?    as they are parasites. they climb onto you without you knowing. when you do discover them, they have sucked your blood and are now looking for their next victim, who knows what nasty diseases they carry.

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 09:32 PM

I have figured it out! The extra BNP votes are like the fake identities they create on Facebook. They don't exist either.

One comparison between the Neanderthals and the BNP is that the Neanderthals lacked an essential bone in the throat that enables effective and intelligent human speech.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:09 PM

They seem to be able to speak, it seems to me that no one wants to hear what they are saying.

               But on a point of clarification, earlier in the thread I made a suggestion as to why I thought they may have gained votes, but I was informed by another poster that they actually lost vote, they just didn't lose as many votes as some of the other parties. Is that the case? If so, I wouldn't think they'd pose much of a threat.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:56 PM

richard, oh if only it were the other way around!

RIGS,
they did lose votes yes, but they are not a real threat politically speaking, well not yet anyway. what we are hoping to do is to prevent them from becoming a threat by countering all the lies they tell the public. we are trying to stop them taking us down the road of nazi germany, where it is unthinkable to mention folk songs with out people thinking you are still a nazi. i hope this is now changing for the germans.

we may not always agree on how to tackle the problem of how to deal with the BNP, but the one thing we do agree on is that something needs doing now and we are all focused on the end result... reclaiming our heritage and being proud to share it with others.

now i really must try to get some sleep before trying to drive very bendy roads tomorrow.

goodnight all sweet dreams

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 03:33 AM

The rate of demographic change in the UK is reported annually by the Office of National Statistics. You may welcome the trend, but you can't honestly pretend it's insignificant. You can Google the details, and that goes for the UAF-SWP and its tactics.

It's pointless to continue this discussion. Thanks, Joe, for your fair moderation, and thanks, Royston for your perspective on Islam. I'm going back to the music...


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 06:06 AM

I'm going back to the music...
*snort*
Are you sure you know where to find it?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 06:07 AM

""I'm going back to the music...""

Fairplay, you can't go BACK to somewhere you've never been.

You have never posted anywhere other than B.S.

Pretty much all you have posted IS Bulls**t.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 06:31 AM

Out of overwhelming human curiosity, and the kind of revulsion/compunction which makes you stare at the sight of something you'd rather not look at, I did a breakdown of fairplay's postings on Mudcat. It is as follows:-

            Thread Title                No of postings by fairplay
So why has the BNP gained votes?        15
Anti BNP Protest, Codnor                4
Folk Against Fascism                       4
Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK         3
Motley Morris banned !                       1
Billy Bragg and incitement to violence        2
What would you do?                        1
I am the BNP candidate in Chippenham        1

Yes, I know, I've got better things to do with my time. But that makes a total of 31 postings since 12 June of this year, the date upon which Mr fp appears to have been signed up to Mudcat. There's a troll among us.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 06:50 AM

Haven't read right through this thread, so my point may well have been covered.
Why has the BNP gained votes? - Maybe it is because passive racism is endemic to British society and rises to the surface in times of economic and political insecurity - as the man said "shit floats!"
I don't think it's too unusual that the first response to this question was a redneck racist one; it's pretty much what I have become used to throughout my working life.
My schooling primed me with the idea that we were 'The land of hope and glory" and that to be foreign was, at best, to be 'fettered in errors chains'. About now people will flood into the Albert Hall and demand that "Wider still and wider shall our bounds be set".
So much was racism a part of British life that it became necessary to pass laws to protect people from it.
The BNP is sowing its noxious seed on well prepared grounds.
I don't have an answer, but perhaps a first teetering step might be to take stock of where we're at.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 08:51 AM

The fact remains that immigration from Eastern Europe was facilitated/encouraged, by a "liberal/democratic" government, to control wage rates and make our country competitive in a global economy.....it was facilitated by allowing ex communist countries to join the EU....a typical capitalist ploy! and encouraged by Blair and Co who with their usual lack of foresight, failed to anticipate the obvious social problems they would create.

This discussion should have absolutely nothing to do with racism, and perhaps if the socialists here realised that and started shooting at the real enemy, we might start to get somewhere!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 02:11 PM

There was a piece in the paper Guardian today, though I can't find it on line, about anti-racist activists being threatened, and in cases, attacked since the elections. The BNP denies any connection, but the police are active.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 03:04 PM

Got it.

Threats from the right

There appears to be an Aryan Martyr's Brigade, but it looks as if its the others who are supposed to be the Martyrs.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 04:14 PM

Ake,

Your point could be useful in the context of a discussion about the pros and cons of the EU and its expansion.

In the context of this thread it is not so useful as this thread is all about the BNP and their racist agenda.

In the context of this thread your views serve to act as justifications of BNP policy.

If it is not your intention to be associated with neo-nazi ideology then you should consider starting another thread in which you can air your views about what you perceive to be wrong with the current "liberal/democratic" administrations policy on the EU and EU expansion.

You are right that any discussion about the EU should not be confused with one about racist ideology, which is what the BNP represent.

This is mainly because any discussion about the reasons for EU expansion and its consequences encompasses a much wider range of issues than just the possible impact on migration and wages.

Consequently you oversimplify the discussion about europe when you reduce it down to issues of migration and wages and you trivialise it when you try squeezing it into a thread about racism and the BNP.

You have taken a simplistic and untested hypothesis about europe and used it as a premiss for an argument that, in this thread, serves to justify BNP support.

I would be very interested to read and possibly engage in any debate on the subject of the EU and the reasons for and consequences of its expansion.

I suspect that it will turn out to be a more involved and complex discussion than you are giving it credit for here.

Take care friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 06:07 PM

Wow! I've made it! Some BNP nobber has actually made a fake profile of me on Facebook now. Check it out before it's removed: http://www.facebook.com/reqs.php#/profile.php?id=100000005573894
Shhesh guys, you shouldn't have!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 06:40 PM

Hi Lox....I have no connection to the BNP as I think you probably know, and am totally against racial discrimination.

However the thread was not about any BNP racist agenda per se, but to discuss why the BNP did not lose as many votes as the major parties in the last election.

From what I have read, increased economic immigration seems to have figured very largely as a reason why some people voted BNP.

I have simply pointed out that encouraging this sort of immigration at this time, showed lack of forethought and political naivety.

Instead of berating the BNP for doing relatively well in the election, we should be berating our government for bad policy making and producing the conditions where the BNP could raise their profile.

Regarding the Guardian article, it looks like the usual tabloid hype, we used to here all the same garbage about left wing groups some of which I was associated with.

They call it scare- mongering.....Ake

PS.... The BNP's response that "It is rather ironic that they are complaining about being attacked when they use similar tactics themselves," is telling.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 10:46 PM

"I have no connection to the BNP as I think you probably know"

Yes I know, and you also know that I am no witch-hunter.

You can see from this thread alone that my methodology is considerably better than dunking my adversaries to see if they float.


The problem with peoples concerns about immigration is that they are based on a fallacious argument.

It says - immigration is a problem beacause ...

... and then it lists housing, employment, poverty, social welfare, tax, the NHS etc as sub issues under the umbrella of the issue of immigration.


In fact it is the other way round.


There are issues with Housing, unemployment, poverty, social welfare, tax, the NHS etc.

Each of these things has its problems and its issues ...

... of which the consequences of immigration is one of many subheadings.


So it is wrong to describe the issues surrounding these areas as consequences of immigration policy.

It is right to consider immigration as one of the many equally significant contributory factors to the difficulties involved within each of these areas.


With that in mind I will throw your point back at you in a different guise ...

... instead of concentrating on the effect of immigrants on our society, we should be looking at the mistakes and betrayals of our administration.

And I would add that as long as we remain focussed on immigration as "the big issue" we will be playing political football on the BNP's playing field.

That is why I will not accept that or any similar agenda.

Especially as there is still no evidence to support the view that our problems are caused by immigration, mass or otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:58 AM

"Instead of concentrating on the effect of immigrants on our society, we should be looking at the mistakes and betrayals of our administration"

Isn't that exactly what I've been saying?

One of the worst mistakes and betrayals is using such a complex issue, cynically as a tool.

Again you talk about evidence, the problem we are discussing at the moment is the rise of the BNP and there is no doubt that late New Labour immigration policy has contributed to that rise!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:51 AM

Throughout my life, I have had an interest in watching the process of political manipulation,I have seen the "race/religion" cards played by politicians of all persuasions, not just a perquisite of the BNP.
Political manipulation comes in two forms.... overt as in the BNP's mindless call for re-patriation and attempt to encourage the racial friction evident in some parts of our society....and covert as in the current "liberal/democratic" system where more and more of our lives are being controlled by govt, where it is made illegal to speak or think in a certain fashion, on race, sexuality,religion and our every move recorded on government files......but it is a very short step from criminalising racial, sexual, or religious thought, to criminalisation of any criticism of government or government policy.

Of the two forms, "liberalism" in its quest for thought control and its use of Orwellian methods to achieve its aims is by far the most insidious and dangerous to our freedom and social wellbeing.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 06:21 AM

Gervase. Fake Facebook entries. Sorry, but I beat you to it by about a week. Must get round to complaining someday. Can't have people thinking I actually write like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 08:41 AM

keep pounding the "abuse@facebook.com" email addy.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 01:41 PM

They sure do protect those BNP folks, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 06:39 AM

""PS.... The BNP's response that "It is rather ironic that they are complaining about being attacked when they use similar tactics themselves," is telling.""

Telling indeed Ake, that you subscribe to their contention that their opponent's spoken and written denunciation of their racist, fascist aims and objectives, is somehow equivalent to BNP death threats, and BNP thugs kicking seven barrels of shit out of opponents, but only when they have ten to one superiority in numbers.

I'm surprised that you are prepared to carry your well known liking for playing devil's advocate THAT far.

In this instance you really are supporting the devil.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 07:34 AM

Incidentally, I have not yet seen any antifascist clone the identities of fascists, nor post photoshopped pictures of fascist women with grotesquely enlarged boobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Grendel's Dad
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 11:34 AM

In the early 1970s, the deputy leader of the British Movement was called Michael McLaughlin. (He became No1 after the then leader of the BM, Colin Jordan, was caught stealing women's underwear from a branch of Tesco's. But that's another story.)

Anyway, whether MM was fitted out with the set of duff and deceased brain cells which usually characterises fascists, I know not, but the daft sod put his address on some publicity material. As a result, every member of the anti-fascist left knew exactly where he lived. They also knew that his dwelling was a bungalow on an open plan estate with immediate access to a main road.

In other words, he was a sitting target for being firebombed, or having bricks thrown through his windows, or for being carved up on his doorstep, as happened to someone I know recently. Nothing of the sort ever happened to him. This despite the fact that the British Movement had an extremely vicious para military wing, which came directly under McLaughlin's control, called Column 88.

Sorry Akenton, that's not how we operate, and that's not how we operate because the way to drive fascism into oblivion is through mass action and through exposing the public to the facts about organisations like the BNP.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:08 PM

I thought I remembered "Combat 88".


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 01:28 PM

I suspect you're thinking of "Combat 18"


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 04:45 PM

It appears that there is a UK Column 88 (8 represents the 8th letter of the alphabet, H - so stands for Heil Hitler) and Combat 18 (AH, geddit) and a European Combat 88.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 05:42 PM

gosh ... creative bunch ...


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 06:05 PM

One collective brain cell, Lox.

Bound to keep coming up with the same basic crap.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 06:36 PM

Yeah, can't even think of their own names and have to keep cloning ours...


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 07:30 PM

Ah ... that's what they mean when they talk about this or that Combat 18 Cell in swuch and such a town...

I thought they were talking aboutsmall organized groups ...

... now I see that they are groups that have by some fluke managed to gather enough genetic material to form a braincell of their very own ..

... I doubt its encouraged in the ranks though ...

.. it's bound to cause disruption to the master plan ...

... I mean ... imagine ... free critical thought ... (shudder)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 12:19 AM

"Women more troubled by bag theft than rape, BNP candidate claims


Andrew Gilligan
01.04.08 A senior BNP leader with a strong chance of winning a seat in the London Assembly next month has written that rape is a "myth" and that "some women are like gongs - they need to be struck regularly."

The Standard can reveal that Nick Eriksen, the BNP's London organiser and the second-highest candidate on its list for the Assembly, is the author of "Sir John Bull," a notorious far-Right blog which has regularly advocated hatred and abuse against women. The disclosure will be a serious blow to the BNP's hopes of London electoral success.

On 24 August 2005, Mr Eriksen wrote: "I've never understood why so many men have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the feminazi myth machine into believing that rape is such a serious crime ... Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal.

"To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence, is a serious crime is like suggesting that forcefeeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence. A woman would be more inconvenienced by having her handbag snatched.

"The demonisation of rape is all part of the feminazi desire to obtain power and mastery over men. Men who go along with the rape myth are either morons or traitors."

On 5 November 2005, in an item entitled "Give her a slap!," Mr Eriksen approvingly quoted Noel Coward as saying: "Some women are like gongs - they need to be struck regularly." On 8 November, he claimed that "the vast majority of domestic [assaults] are initiated by the woman." Mr Eriksen also wrote on 24 November 2005 that mothers "should never go out to work" and described career women as "unnatural and vile... it is a strange kind of woman who would want to invest [her] energies into her job rather than into a man."

Eleven of the 25 Assembly members are elected on a London-wide basis using a form of proportional representation. The BNP is likely to win at least one of these seats, for which it needs around five per cent of the vote, and has strong hopes of winning a second, for which it needs around seven to eight per cent. If the BNP does win two seats, one of them will go to Mr Eriksen and one to London party leader Richard Barnbrook.

Gerry Gable, publisher of the antifascist magazine Searchlight, said: "It is horrifying, and an amazing indictment of the BNP, that someone with these views could be elected to the London Assembly. What is his attitude going to be to his women constituents?"

The author of the Sir John Bull blog, which stopped publication last autumn, is not identified on the website itself. But the Standard established that it is Mr Eriksen by posing as a BNP sympathiser and sending a message to the site's contact email address, johnbull@englandmail.com.

Within two days, Mr Eriksen replied, signing his name, giving Mr Barnbrook's contact number and saying: "As for your kind comments about the blog, I may well restart this after the elections - we shall see what happens! All the best, Nick."

Contacted by the Standard last night, Mr Eriksen admitted the blog postings were written by him, but said they were "deliberately provocative" in order to stimulate debate.

"I was trying to make the point that there are two kinds of rape," he said. "There is stranger rape and there is so-called rape by somebody the woman knows. I was raising an important issue in a provocative way to allow people to make up their own minds."

Mr Eriksen insisted that he "did not condone violence in any way," but was "trying to highlight the fact that violence against men is unacceptable." He said: "It's typical of the media to distort what the BNP say."

Mr Eriksen, a former Tory councillor and ex-civil servant at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport who lives in Richmond, says he will not resign. If he and Mr Barnbrook are elected, BNP leader Nick Griffin says the party will be invited on the BBC's Question Time."


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 12:27 AM

As a btw, Nick Griffin the bnp chairman has his pic on Google images and he's got his pecker in or near some fellows ass. The guys pants are down and old Nickie has his fly down and his willie hangin' out.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 12:36 AM

A cartoon: so apt.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 12:38 AM

Maybe it is because passive racism is endemic to British society

Is it just me or does anyone else find this statement ironic at best and ludicrous at worst?

There seems to be something decidedly wrong with complaining that a whole nation are endemicaly racist. Maybe it is OK. After all, most Blacks are gangsters, most Jews are money lenders and most Irish are thick. They all make sense if we are to believe that most British are racist don't they?

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 12:44 AM

Wow. Whan an inspirational figure he cuts. BTW, it ain't the hat that's pointed, it's his head.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 12:50 AM

Whattaguy. What an organization.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 01:12 AM

Telling his supporters they are Number 1 with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 01:26 AM

Gotta love the leader on Friday nights . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 01:28 AM

Nick Griffin's site says


"Men need to look tough and think they can get any woman."


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 01:32 AM

He looks DASHing in those pumps . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 01:34 AM

Nicky speaks the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 01:42 AM

Takes one to know one . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 01:50 AM

BNP maybe? New candidate?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 01:53 AM

Tomorrow I'll be posting quotes said by the BNP about porn, murder and their love of Nazism.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 02:00 AM

"Richard Barnbrook, London leader of the BNP, has been forced to deny that an erotic movie he produced and directed as a student was a gay porn film."

It's easy to determine that the BNP supports the porn industry in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 03:02 AM

Does anyone have the bnp membership list that was released a few years back?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 03:09 AM

Tellin' the truth again. Hell, twice in a decade . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 03:11 AM

Constipated? Kicked in the stones? Farted? Nickie at work . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 03:16 AM

Nick has had a change of heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 03:19 AM

Ya know, he even LOOKS stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 03:39 AM

BNP decision maker.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 03:51 AM

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=nick+griffin%2C+bnp&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=&start=0



The cabin boy, the cabin boy . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 04:14 AM

Good work Peace.

I have today taken the first tentative steps towards trying to interest an online legal journal in the laggardly approach of Fakebook towards protecting people from BNP impersonation and intimidation - which is given striking contrast by the recent announcement by YouTube of its increased efforts to protect users from abuse. In particular YouTube announces that impersonation and adverse comments are harrassment.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 01:20 PM

I haven't yet started, Richard, and it's good to see you haven't, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 01:45 PM

""Constipated? Kicked in the stones? Farted? Nickie at work . . . .""

No Bruce! He's just been introduced to his new neighbour, Grigor Wyzhnyvski, and his family.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 02:25 PM

Who says today's politicians lack convictions. The British National Party is brimming with them – all of a criminal nature. "The BNP will crack down on crime and restore public safety and confidence," its website states. But despite claiming to be a party of law and order, the BNP is home to criminals, racist thugs and football hooligans. The ranks of the criminals extend to the very highest level of the party. They include:

Nick Griffin (Party Chairman) Received a two-year suspended sentence in April 1998 for inciting racial hatred. His magazine The Rune carried obscene anti-Semitic and Holocaust denial material as well as crude racism.


Tony Lecomber
Tony Lecomber (Group Development Officer). In 1985 he was convicted on five counts for offences under the Explosives Act, including possession of homemade hand-grenades and electronic timing devices. Sentenced to three-years imprisonment.
In 1991 he was sentenced to another three years imprisonment for unlawful wounding for his part in an attack on a Jewish schoolteacher whom he caught trying to peel off a BNP sticker at an underground station. He has a total of 12 convictions.

Colin Smith (South East London organiser). Has amassed a total of 17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer.

John Tyndall (founder of the BNP). Six convictions. In 1962 he was jailed for organising a paramilitary organisation. Four years later, he was again sent to prison for possession of a loaded gun. In 1986, he was convicted for incitement to racial hatred under the Public Order Act and sentenced to 12 months imprisonment.

Warren Bennett (Chief Steward). Supposed to keep order in the party yet has convictions for football hooliganism. In 1998, he was deported from France with over 50 other Scottish hooligans, including several BNP members.

Steve Belshaw (East Midlands BNP organiser. Was convicted in 1994 for assaulting a lawyer in his home-town of Mansfield. At the time, Belshaw combined his BNP membership with Combat 18 activity.

Kevin Scott (North East Regional Organiser). Was convicted in 1993 for hurling a glass at a black customer in a pub.

Alan Gould (Waltham Forest Organiser). Was convicted in 2000 for racially abusing people in a local pub. He told the court that it was the drink getting the better of him.


Robert Bennett. A leading activist in Oldham BNP during the 2002 elections campaign, Bennett has served five years in prison for the gang rape of a woman. He has also served seven years for armed robbery and has over 30 convictions in total.


Mick Treacy. The Oldham organiser has five convictions for violence, theft, and handling stolen goods

Darren Dobson. Found guilty of racially aggravated assault at Oldham magistrates in November 2001. Fined £300. Connected to football hooligans in the Oldham area, and has links to the nazi terror group Combat 18

Darren Hoy. April 2002, the BNP supporter was sent to prison for 3 months for racially abusing people as they left an anti-fascist rally in Oldham.

In spite of this imposing list, when pressed by the BBC Panorama team in September 2001 on the convictions of its leading members, party leader Nick Griffin just lied. He claimed Tony Lecomber, his deputy merely had a conviction for handling fireworks. He also claimed that party chief steward Warren Bennett had a minor conviction "some 15 years ago" but had not been in trouble since. The truth is that Bennett has been named in the Scottish press for violence as recently as 2002. Griffin also tried to claim that Colin Smith had no convictions.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 02:28 PM

A 'former' BNP person. See the intelligence in his eyes. He received six life sentences for nail-bombing.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 02:30 PM

"Former National Organiser Richard Edmonds was convicted for his part in a vicious bottle attack on a mixed race couple in a pub in East London 1993

BNP supporter Stuart Kerr was sentenced to 12 years imprisonment for firebombing an Asian shop in Chichester, Sussex

BNP leader Nick Griffin was convicted of incitement to racial hatred in April 1998

The BNP organiser for Waltham Forest, Alan Gould, was convicted of racially abusing people in a pub in 2000"

From the www.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 02:31 PM

"In 1995, Griffin joined the BNP. He began to edit The Rune, an anti-Semitic quarterly. He also announced that the BNP should prioritise denying the Holocaust to schoolchildren.

He earned a two-year suspended prison sentence for his sick views on the Holocaust. In 1998 he was found guilty of inciting race hatred at Harrow Crown Court for denying that the Holocaust ever took place."

From the www.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 02:39 PM

What his own people think of him.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 02:41 PM

What he thinks of his people.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 02:54 PM

Gee, note that David Hannam's name is mentioned. He was the nice polite fellow from the BNP who was posting here some years back. Remember how you wanted everyone--namely me--to be polite to him? Hell, he still has a membership, no? But I'm sure YOU'LL be nice to the poor average BNP soul.



'A poster on BNP rebel blog "Enough Is Enough" writes about an incident at the BNP's 2006 conference in Blackpool where Nick Griffin's right hand man and star of Channel 4's "Young, Nazi & Proud" took 2 underage girls back to his hotel room with another BNP member, David Hannam.


Mark Collett - Star of "Young, Nazi & Proud"
"I believe [Collett's] story that he chatted up a girl in a disco who looked 18, and then took her back to his hotel room. His offence was to bring a guest back to the conference hotel room, nothing else! He was quite rightly given a final warning for that, which meant the next incident should have been automatic expulsion. But that's just one of many problems with this whole Collett thing, it seems the rules don't apply to him, he's untouchable. Mark Collett is a nasty megalomaniac, but he's not a sex offender." - Chris Hill, former Lancaster BNP organiser

"With all due respect Chris you were not in the hotel bar when Collett and Hannam came in with the 14 and 15 year old girls and I was and so was Kenny Smith and several others. We all could tell they were underage as soon as they walked through led by Collett and many of us said as much to each other including the barman.

When the girls came back down complaining about the demands for sex it was even more obvious they were children and it was Kenny Smith who persuaded them not to go to the press with the mobile phone footage and promised them that Collett and Hannam would be disciplined by the party.

One of the girls bluetoothed the footage to Kenny and I believe he gave it to security (pos. Martin Reynolds) the next morning." - 'I was there' posting in response to Chris Hill regarding Mark Collett's behaviour and lack of action taken against him. '

From this site.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 03:00 PM

BNP love of children. It's clear, they love kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 03:01 PM

Happy thirtieth, Andrew.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 03:04 PM

Another--thanks to newsoftheworld.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 06:36 PM

'Only when fervour gets the better of him does spittle fleck his sharp suits and fashionable ties. His physical presence is unimpressive: of medium height, with a slight paunch accentuated by his bullet-proof jacket, he has dark brush-like hair and small, fleshy features.

According to his jovial wife, he has "never done a proper job" apart from renovating houses, chopping down trees and teaching foreign students English. "I've been the one who has actually gone out every day, working to keep us going financially," said Jackie. "He's spent his time playing at stupid politics. To Nick, it's all a game."'

Fromm the www.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 07:36 PM

What IS he doing with his left hand?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 07:40 PM

Out of the mouths of babes.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 07:47 PM

High five from some pimply-faced teenager.

Lotsa young boys in BNP photos. Makes ya wonder.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 08:02 PM

"Here is the footage of the collett and hannam when they took 14 and 15 years girls back to their hotel room after BNP AGM in Blackpool!"

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. BUT, 14 and 15? Jaysus, guys, can't you wait until they have pubic hair?

What viewers had to say about the movie footage:

KNTFM (1 month ago) Nazi Nonces, liars hypocrites and bastards
CaptainKubla (1 month ago) Urgh. The fucking disgusting NONCES of the BRITISH NONCE/NAZI PARTY strike again. The party of so called "Law and order", in reality a motley crue of perverted Kiddy fiddlers, low life Criminals, and terrorists. How hilarious that Griffin apparently hates gay people, yet failed to sue his former Gay Nazi lover Martin Webster when he exposed their little tryst. Ooooh, chase me Nicky!!! . Fucking hilarious when the fat ugly bong eyed Jabba FLED IN TERROR from some hippies wielding eggs. Bahaha.
green500 (4 months ago) Show Hide -2   Marked as spam Reply Your a low life silkworm. l don't know what u think this will achive or do to help nationalism.
SILKWORM777 (4 months ago) do you support this then green?

collett has been damaging nationalism for years and nothing is done!!!
WhiteLadAgain (3 weeks ago) and covering up pedophilia archives what........

Your the lowlife green500
SILKWORM777 (4 months ago) hey collett! you are not the only one who has access to bebo and facebook lol there are lots of people on there who have a story to tell ...
SILKWORM777 (4 months ago) Both girls came downstairs badly shaken as both collett and hannam demanded sex and they quickley fled the scene.

WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO IS ILLEGAL.

WHY NO POLICE ACTION OR EVEN INVESTIGATION?
lornaration (1 month ago) because they didnt do anything. Apparently when propositioned they said their ages and the bnpers were just like here no.
JohninBasel (4 months ago) Dirty f*ckers!
SILKWORM777 (4 months ago) maybe hannam was promising to show them his puppy boxer dogs he has at dibrid boxers?



Go to Youtube and search

BNP officials mark collett and david hannam in hotel room in blackpool


Se what the heroes are doing at Annual General Assemblies.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 08:40 PM

Lemme see . . . and return later with more about the British Nazi Party and their sexual exploits.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 08:57 PM

BNP Policy Committee.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 09:03 PM

A man a nation could follow . . . .to hell.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 09:11 PM

Keeping your country clean . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST, Lisa Garvey-jones
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:02 PM

Come on Bruce, let it drop, Looks like all their supporters on here and Facebook have gone, and good riddance to them !


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:06 PM

I am going to keep going, sorry. These motherfuckers want war they got it. I am going to nail the bastards and KEEP nailing them until THEY back off the shit they're doing on Facebook or our legal folks can nail them for what they're doing on Facebook. Period. BTW, I don't trust anyone who posts with a guest name. No offense.

Moving on.

A neat little book . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:07 PM

PPS If it bugs you, don't open the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:09 PM

A leader in a crisis. Yep, We ALL want to follow you, Nicky.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:17 PM

What the people say about Nicky . . . .

"Given this uncompromisingly aggressive attitude. I wonder how he was able to work so intimately with Martin Webster. Even by the eccentric standards of the far right. Webster stands out as a fascinating oddity, if for no other reason than that as leader of the violently homophobic NF. he was openly gay among fellow activists. Griffin was one of his closest lieutenants for three years.
    "'Erm,' Griffin pauses, 'it was uncomfortable sometimes. He'd come into the office and put his arm around you and give you a kiss on the cheek and you'd go "Yuck."
"He says he didn't protest because he was busy plotting against Webster. A couple of years ago, Webster claimed that he and Griffin had been lovers - something which Griffin, a father of four, vehemently denies."
Report by Andrew Anthony (The Observer Magazine, 1st September 2002)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:20 PM

"I would certainly like to take up your suggestion of a regular exchange of the The Rune for Gothic Ripples. I have found your series on the NS [National Socialist] Vanguard interesting and thought-provoking so far, and look forward to the remainder.
    "The next Rune is now being put together. Among other articles we have a good brief history of the BUF [British Union of Fascists] by a youngster in Scotland, a major piece of constructive criticism of the BNP's over-emphasis on elections, and a feature on the law relating to self-defence against red/Jew terror attacks." Nick Griffin In letter to veteran Nazi Colin Jordan (22nd July 1995)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:20 PM

"Bluntly, I am not at all sure I belong in the British National Party.
    "As you will have probably gathered from my Rune articles, my opinion of party political organisations with their primary focus on parliamentary elections is very similar to that espoused by Colin Jordan... I believe that the BNP continues to put far too many of its eggs in the basket of mythical parliamentary democracy... I cannot see why we should waste so much time appealing to dupes and morons [the British electorate] when there is so much to be done recruiting, educating and equipping our power-winning machine.
    "Further, I am not a British Nationalist. I am first and foremost a White Racialist, and second a Welsh Nationalist... Nick Griffin in letter to John Tyndall (November 14th 1994)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:27 PM

"Griffin finally joined the BNP in 1995. In the same year he became editor of The Rune, an antisemitic quarterly produced by Croydon BNP, which he used as a platform for opposing the "modernisation" of the BNP, accusing those who wanted change of "rainbow Conservatism". He also declared that the BNP should prioritise denying the Holocaust to schoolchildren."

From the www.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:37 PM

"BNP leader Nick Griffin calls white people 'stupid'
The people who have the brains and ability got out [of London] years ago, one way or another. The people who are left are either the 15 per cent of the population who are happy to put up with it, they're so decadent they actually like it, or they are too stupid to do anything about it. They will vote BNP, but you can't build a movement on those people.

Nick Griffin, The Cook Report"


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:38 PM

"On democracy: "[BNP voters backed] what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate"


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 05:08 PM

It has taken five days, but I do think I have located the full real name and address of the poster "Fairplay". He's in Nottinghamshire. Next time be more careful, asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 05:09 PM

The legal tracking will be lots easier now.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 05:12 PM

NOW, I will quit this thread. Until someone/anyone gives me reason to return to it.

Open remark to the BNP: FIX THE SHIT you caused Mudcat members on Facebook. If you do not, I will continue to speak the truth about your leader, the various child molesters and other weirdos you have in your party. You have three days to get that done. Period. Until then, fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 05:18 PM

Last thing for a bit. I will publish An/Fairplays name and address on this site if the Facebook shit is not fixed. I just realized this is a weekend. You hereby have until Thursday of the coming week. Don't push anymore buttons you fucking assholes.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 08 Aug 09 - 07:40 PM

Just got my FAF t shirt and badge today.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Aug 09 - 08:44 AM

I don't knoiw why this thread is still going, the question asked in the title is easily answered.
They get votes because they tell people things they want to hear.
That's how any politician gets elected isn't it?
All the dumb fuck hair splitting, etc that has gone on on this thread is just so much fucking hot air!
You're giving publicity to the Square heads, leave it alone.
If you want to do something, vote against them, stand against them, whatever it takes.
Point scoring on a parochial, self selecting US based web site, about a UK based phenomenon, is a waste of time.
No wonder people are fed up with Mudcat


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Aug 09 - 04:46 PM

The reason for the on going discusison about the BNP is their attempts to associate folk music, cusotms and heritage with teir cause.   The good people in Mudcat are making it clear that they have no connection whatsoever with the BNP and are citing evidence rlating to BNP's extreme right and criminal deeds, words and activities to show why.

I love our traditions, I respect other peoples traditions, and I will not tolerate the traditions that I love to be used as avehcile for race hatred and neo-naziism. For that reason I will do everything in my power, not to chage the hearts and minds of the bigots who are BNP acitivist, but the herat and minds of those who may be misled by the lies that they peddle.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 09 - 05:37 PM

I agree, John - but there are widely varying opinions on that issue.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 06:15 AM

" I will do everything in my power" So SPB, apart from sending me PM,s, what other 'constructive' activities are you up in your quest to bring about the downfall of the BNP.
On this rare occasion I too agre with Mr McKenzie.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Chris Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 06:45 AM

Allow everyone their view. I voted BNP and will do again. Our local guy is great. I do not agree with government policy in throwing the doors open in the UK to freeloaders. I expect the Tories will do something about it when they get in next June. I doubt if I went to Poland I would find a group crying for my rights !


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 07:09 AM

I presume this is not the same GUEST,Chris Shaw who left an email address and telephone number in connection with tickets for a ceilidh at C Sharp house on a previous thread - it seems the stealing of identities is endemic on the internet


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 07:10 AM

CS, Are you saying that the NHS doctors, nurses, care workers, social workers, bus drivers, are freeloaders? What is your evidence for this?

PR, I can't stop people from voting they way they want to. I can't stop racists and bigots from organising, but what I can do and have done on many occasions, is to provide instances of where the BNP have lied to get support, remind people of the criminal activites of many activist high up in the BNP, reminding people of lessons from history of the impact of fascist state on their societies and asking thinking intellegent people if on the evidence provided they really want the BNP to get in a position of power. I do not use abusive langauge like some people who have sent me PMs. On a practical level I work with charities and social enterprises which in turn work with the most disadvantaged people in society.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 07:39 AM

I presume this is not the same GUEST,Chris Shaw who left an email address and telephone number in connection with tickets for a ceilidh at C Sharp house on a previous thread - it seems the stealing of identities is endemic on the internet

Why? Surely he/she is entitled to dance?

More seriously: this comment smacks of another example of using a form of cyberbullying (in this case by deliberately drawing attention to contact information posted for another purpose) as a weapon against those whose views one does not agree with. Pity, really.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 07:48 AM

sigh..........


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 08:29 AM

Martin, SATBYS. What was being pointed out was that there was a presumably real Chris Shaw who had in the past been useful in relation to a ceilidh at C#Ho - so this pro-BNP guest had probably stolen the identity of the real Chris Shaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 08:45 AM

Thank you Richard

It only took a click to find out that information about the Chris Shaw whose last post was over 18months ago - as I'm not terribly technically minded I can only assume others would find it equally simple and be tempted to jump to conclusions as it seems some people who post here are!

I think our resident troll obviously knows his way around mudcat extremely well and has no compunctions about stealing an identity that could cause maximum discomfort to an individual who has no history whatsoever of any posts other than helpful musical ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 08:54 AM

Richard

Precisely. It is the PRESUMPTION that someone who had connections with the tradition couldn't simultaneously hold pro-BNP views that fascinates me. I have no idea whether the two posters are one and the same - but I see absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be.

If Emma B. has reason to believe the identity has been stolen, then the person who needs to know is the first user - whose details she has. If the posts come from the same person, then Emma's drawing of attention to it amounts to bullying. If it is not possible to tell the difference, no comment is necessary.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 08:56 AM

Emma B

Cross-posted!

Regards.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 09:04 AM

Make up your mind Martin.

Your first criticism was to the effect that Emma was "outing" the contact details of the BNP troll (you called it "cyberbullying") - which involves her believing that they are one and the same. Your next line is that she (and I) are, but should not be, believing that the previous poster and the BNP troll are NOT one and the same.

Which do you say is the case?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 09:22 AM

Richard

Your next line is that she (and I) are, but should not be, believing that the previous poster and the BNP troll are NOT one and the same.


Sorry - I don't understand that sentence. At no stage did I mention or imply a troll. Your use of the term again simply PRESUMES that someone who holds BNP views can't dance. The logic escapes me.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 10:21 AM

The current BNP poster on this thread - using the guest name "Shaw" is the troll.

The question is whether he is or is not the same as the previous poster "Shaw". Your first concern was that he was the same. Now you complain that we say isn't the same.

You can't have it both ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 10:41 AM

Martin, I'm not a 'complicated' person

When my bank rang me up because I'd suddenly, against all previous practice, made an expensive purchase on the internet using my credit card, I was inconvienienced momentarily but grateful that someone had recognized that I had no previous history of this kind of behaviour but knew that such fraud happened only too often

I have no idea whether the Chris Shaw that posted briefly 18 months ago is the same person as the alleged BNP supporter but, simple observation informs me that there is a rash of mudcat identity theft on Facebook (I have been targetted myself) and a spate of guest posting here too (which Joe Offer has identified coming from the same ISP) and that, despite the long running and combatative nature of these threads, this is the first post from that particular 'guest' on the subject - as I pointed out all the previous posts having been very helpful musical contributions!

Guest postings are officially not allowed below the line but nevertheless the moderators cannot be everywhere and different time zones ensure that any Brit knows they have a window of opportunity to make disparing remarks about other nationalities or races which will remain here until attention is brought to them!

I don't think you will find any examples of cyber bullying in any of my posts however for one period in which 'I' chose to post under a consistent guest name only, I had that name deliberately and cynically abused!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 12:42 PM

Richard

The current BNP poster on this thread - using the guest name "Shaw" is the troll.

The question is whether he is or is not the same as the previous poster "Shaw".


So - he's a troll whether he dances or not? Is that your point? MY only point is that, on the evidence so far, he/she may be a dancer who votes BNP. So what?


Emma B
Let's suppose there's only one Chris. What effect would you expect drawing attention to the location of their email address might have? If, on the other hand, there are TWO - what was the point of doing so - your argument based on the posting pattern didn't depend on it. To put it another way, using your own analogy - how would you have felt if instead of contacting you, the bank had posted a public letter in the local newspaper, complete with your address? With all due respect, I think your original post was disingenuous, at best.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 12:58 PM

Martin as I pointed out, anyone who wished to do a 'check' on any poster could do it as simply as me and may not be as wised up about the state of ID fraud that seems to be the flavour of the month.

If I had been as mean spirited as you insist on attributing to me, for whatever motives of your own, I could have simply linked to the previous post without any further comment.
Frankly I find it extremely unlikely that anyone who wished to post those kind of views (which mimic exactly posts by a series of other 'guests') would also have personal contact details readily availble on the forum; BNP members became very upset when a membership list was published on the net recently.

However I don't feel I have any need to defend my actions to you any more - I have better things to do with my time.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 04:10 PM

Martin, answer the question. Is your problem that we might think him the same person, or a different person? Make up your mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 04:30 PM

Richards point:


Martin

"More seriously: this comment smacks of another example of using a form of cyberbullying (in this case by deliberately drawing attention to contact information posted for another purpose) as a weapon against those whose views one does not agree with. Pity, really."


This suggests that EmmaB thinks that the chris shaw in this thread is the same as the chris shaw in a previous thread and that she is drawing attentiion to his contact details in order to make it possible for people to bully him.

"Precisely. It is the PRESUMPTION that someone who had connections with the tradition couldn't simultaneously hold pro-BNP views that fascinates me. I have no idea whether the two posters are one and the same - but I see absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be."


This suggests that she has presumed that they are not the same person and that that is a bad thing.

Which point do you stand by?

My point

In fact both the above points are nonsense, she has alerted us to the possibility that another mudcat identity may have been cloned.

She may be right or wrong, but under current circumstances her observation may prove useful to moderators, to Chris Shaw and also to the rest of us as reminders to remain vigilant.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 04:58 PM

Martin, answer the question. Is your problem that we might think him the same person, or a different person? Make up your mind.

No, Richard - my problem is the underlying assumption that anyone who votes BNP can't dance.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 05:51 PM

Martin...Your problem is that you dont speak "liberalese"...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 09:43 PM

Martin, that was not the underlying assumption, and your attempt to cling to it is such a transparent figleaf that it does nothing to spare your deserved blushes.

I am however happy to report that for the moment, while Fakebook has not yet zapped ALL of the clones, it has got rid of quite a lot. I also got a fake of me zapped off bebo. Regrettably there is a fake "Richard "Hoff" Bridge" at present on flickr. I do not use flickr.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 09 - 09:46 PM

PS. There is however a poster (one I have not noticed before) on FaF who appears to be defending the BNP, and his picture seems to show the regalia of a particular morris side.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 12:11 AM

The shit had best be gone by Thursday.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 12:25 AM

A friend of mine who has a Facebook account--I do NOT--has sent the following message from me/on my behalf to people who have 'befriended' the fake me:

"Sure, tell 'em. I hate the fuckin' Nazis and as a result of not backing off nailing the bastards the BNP then proceeded to steal the ids of about ten people--mostly musicians--and do their best to make the musicians look as if we support the BNP. Nothing could be further from the truth. All of us have spoken against the BNP, in no uncertain terms, and we shall continue to do so. It'll be one cold day in hell before those bastards make me back up."

FYI


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 02:21 AM

flickr got back to me overnight with intelligent questions.

What an amazing contrast with Fakebook!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 02:23 AM

WOW. There are some sites on the 'net that DO have their stuff wired tight. You have done excellent work, Richard. I am beholden to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 03:11 AM

Richard

Please try to resist the temptation to patronise me. Adding that to the toe-curlingly self-righteous tone of much of this thread really would make me question our sanity.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:29 PM

martin,
of course someone can cance and be a BNP supporter. BUT there has been too many id thefts to assume that anyones posts are really from who they say they are especially when they are guests.

EMMA B is not and never will be a bully.

as the BNP and the KKK have such an intimate relationship, i am grateful to have the support of our U.S friends. to be honest until i came on here, i always thought that the KKK had been disbanded and outlawed sometime in the 70s.

i still think that people should be allowed to voice their opinions freely, even when we wholley dissagree with what they say. personally i have found some of the pro BNP stuff really sickening but it shows the level of (un)intelligence not to mention loyalty of those who support their cause.

for example, the rape and abuse stuff sickens me no end, especially as i have been on the recieving end.
HOWEVER i think he should keep saying crap like that. if it sickens me and you lot then imagine how many others. he will lose more votes every time he comes up with stuff like that, so FILL YA BOOTS MATE.

take care all

jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:57 PM

Martin - try to make it less tempting.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:39 PM

Is today Wednesday?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:44 PM

not sure bruce, i think so but then my days have been going backwards and forwards so much i think it might be september!!

x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 07:25 PM

Was that Ricky Nelson?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 08:10 PM

I notice stepped-up attacks against me on MySpace by the BNP. I will out the member tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 08:19 PM

Pardon: On Youtube. Including many from the fake Richard. The real Richard is a man. The person imitating him spells poorly, has little education, formal or otherwise, and likely 'spends time' with older teenaged boys on weekends.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 09:02 PM

A


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 09:55 PM

Well, one letter at a time and I'll never get the guy's name out there. Start with Andrew.

BTW, Andrew, if that was you a few days back who sent the death threat, FUCK YOU! Pussies, the fuckin' lot of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 10:00 PM

Where is Langley Mill in England? Anyone know?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 10:18 PM

://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=Langley+Mill&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=uk&ei=FHeDSoTPBZahjAf057WICg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=t


Actually just in Derbyshire


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 10:23 PM

Thank you, Richard.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 10:27 PM

500


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:32 AM

This is a little, off topic, so my apologies. However, someone has just drawn my attention to an organisation called the League of American Voters. It was formed apparently to fight Obama's proposed health care reform. Fair enough. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But look what it says here. "It will add 50 million new patients — including up to 13 million illegal aliens — to an system that already doesn't have enough doctors."

Goddamn racists. They get everywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 05:23 AM

it has always amazed me that america is so backwards on a number of things. it is free healthcare they are thinking of doing, like our NHS? if it is, it is about time!!

leon sounds like he is one of the worlds true heroes, and the highest compliment i can give him, is to send my love and respect.
anyone that goes through that without being filled with hate and fear i think is extraordinary.(is that the right word?)


i still don't know how those soldiers could do what they did. it is one thing killing someone who wants to kill you, but killing innocents???? it is way beond my understanding and i think it always will be.

i am all for free speech,but not when that speech turns into action of the type that hurts and intimidates others.

the problem i have is that i don't want to be like them and just want to kill off the racist wankers, but i know that for some people that will be the only way to stop them.
this is why it is so important to keep delivering the truth to wouldbe voters. let us constrict the BNP and groups like them until only the hardcore is left. what to do with them then.... i haven't a clue.

it would be so easy just to incite violence but wouldn't that make us just as bad as the nazis we are trying to get rid of?


okay, i have given myself a headache. i will leave finding the answers to more intellegent folks than i.

take care all and have a wonderful day in the sunshine.

jade x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 10:58 AM

I live in Langley Mill! Doh! Outed at last!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 09:20 PM

Nice try, Paco. Tell Andrew he's next.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 09:21 PM

Paco, did you send the death threat?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 09:17 AM

Stop talking like a complete prat Bruce!


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 09:36 AM

""Stop talking like a complete prat Bruce!""

He's right, you know, Bruce.

You SHOULDN'T come down to his level. You're better than that.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 10:59 AM

Yeah. Flamingoes--the true path.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 04:21 PM

"BNP

Saturday, 11 July 2009

Loud and Proud? More like ashamed

It seems that the BNP members are ashamed of themselves. Party leader Nick Griffin sent around an email telling members to "try and avoid" owning up to being a BNP supporter. Griffin urges members to send letters of complaint to the General Teaching Council as two BNP "super activists" face being struck off the teaching register.

In the email Griffin states:
"We need all our supporters to contact the General Teaching Council and protest in the most determined way,"

"When complaining, please be articulate, polite and sensible and try and avoid stating that you are a BNP supporter."

Come on Nick aren't you loud and proud of your beliefs?"


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 04:24 PM

That was written by Aneurin Glyndwr.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 05:23 PM

Then stop being a complete asshole, Edward R.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 06:43 PM

"And try AND avoid"?

Back to skool!

"try TO avoid" - please.

Dimshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 06:49 PM

Richard ... I'm surprised ...

Surely you mean either Dimwit or Dipshit ...

You must brush up on your colloquialisms. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 07:46 PM

Dimshit is current in the UK, and has been for nearly 30 years as far as I know. What's a "dipshit"?

I have several dictionaries of slang and colloquial English - but all I think pass the 1954 definition.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 08:51 PM

... of folk? ...

.. or by "1954 definition" do you mean the last time you had a washboard stomach?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 01:51 AM

I have never had a washboard stomach (of my own)


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 07:22 PM

Peace/Bruce/guest,
                  So, tell me, Your self imposed deadline expired on thursday. So, who is the naughty mudcatter/BNP gnome? Did you track the ISP of the facebook infitrators? Do you still believe I have been sending you death threats?
                   That realy must be a first on mudcat surely, one member accusing another of sending them death threats! Care to apologise Brucie for your accusations towards my good self?


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 07:25 PM

I asked you if you did. Read the fucking post, Edward. Until then fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 07:29 PM

As for Peace, Bruce, guest--gee. Coming from you that's rich. Want your names here? I will be very glad to do that.


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 28 July 8:15 PM EDT

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