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BS: Make tobacco illegal?

gnu 27 Jul 09 - 04:13 PM
Amos 27 Jul 09 - 04:25 PM
bankley 27 Jul 09 - 04:33 PM
olddude 27 Jul 09 - 04:36 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM
olddude 27 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 09 - 04:38 PM
olddude 27 Jul 09 - 04:39 PM
Wesley S 27 Jul 09 - 04:43 PM
gnu 27 Jul 09 - 04:45 PM
Peace 27 Jul 09 - 04:47 PM
gnu 27 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM
Wesley S 27 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM
Peace 27 Jul 09 - 04:56 PM
bobad 27 Jul 09 - 04:57 PM
Peace 27 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM
gnu 27 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM
Jeri 27 Jul 09 - 05:11 PM
Janie 27 Jul 09 - 05:15 PM
Emma B 27 Jul 09 - 05:37 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 09 - 06:07 PM
olddude 27 Jul 09 - 06:22 PM
Smokey. 27 Jul 09 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Stringsinger 27 Jul 09 - 07:27 PM
Bobert 27 Jul 09 - 07:50 PM
Smokey. 27 Jul 09 - 07:59 PM
GUEST,Peace 28 Jul 09 - 02:17 AM
GUEST,Dáithí 28 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM
Amergin 28 Jul 09 - 04:52 AM
alanabit 28 Jul 09 - 04:57 AM
alanabit 28 Jul 09 - 04:58 AM
goatfell 28 Jul 09 - 11:38 AM
Wesley S 28 Jul 09 - 02:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jul 09 - 02:29 PM
Bill D 28 Jul 09 - 02:46 PM
Amos 28 Jul 09 - 02:47 PM
Bill D 28 Jul 09 - 02:54 PM
Smokey. 28 Jul 09 - 03:40 PM
Wesley S 28 Jul 09 - 03:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jul 09 - 03:59 PM
Wesley S 28 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM
Amos 28 Jul 09 - 04:19 PM
Peace 28 Jul 09 - 04:27 PM
Wesley S 28 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM
Ebbie 28 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM
Peace 28 Jul 09 - 05:15 PM
maire-aine 28 Jul 09 - 05:18 PM
Bill D 28 Jul 09 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,Russ Meyer 28 Jul 09 - 07:00 PM
Rapparee 28 Jul 09 - 08:49 PM
Dorothy Parshall 28 Jul 09 - 09:04 PM
Rapparee 28 Jul 09 - 09:05 PM
Ebbie 28 Jul 09 - 09:22 PM
Peace 28 Jul 09 - 10:14 PM
Amos 28 Jul 09 - 10:24 PM
Rapparee 28 Jul 09 - 10:33 PM
Bill D 28 Jul 09 - 11:11 PM
Ebbie 28 Jul 09 - 11:47 PM
Rapparee 28 Jul 09 - 11:52 PM
Peace 29 Jul 09 - 12:18 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jul 09 - 03:13 AM
gnu 30 Jul 09 - 03:20 PM
gnu 30 Jul 09 - 03:25 PM
Little Hawk 30 Jul 09 - 05:52 PM
Paco Rabanne 30 Jul 09 - 05:55 PM
Riginslinger 30 Jul 09 - 05:55 PM
gnu 30 Jul 09 - 06:12 PM
Little Hawk 30 Jul 09 - 06:29 PM
Riginslinger 30 Jul 09 - 07:10 PM
Beer 30 Jul 09 - 11:27 PM
GUEST 31 Jul 09 - 08:31 AM
gnu 29 Sep 09 - 01:36 PM
3refs 29 Sep 09 - 03:00 PM
Bill D 29 Sep 09 - 03:25 PM
gnu 29 Sep 09 - 03:41 PM
Donuel 29 Sep 09 - 04:24 PM
Bill D 29 Sep 09 - 10:36 PM
gnu 05 Oct 09 - 04:02 PM
gnu 23 Nov 10 - 09:39 PM
Donuel 23 Nov 10 - 09:40 PM
Bobert 23 Nov 10 - 09:46 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Nov 10 - 10:06 PM
Jeri 23 Nov 10 - 10:35 PM
Bobert 23 Nov 10 - 10:46 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Nov 10 - 01:02 AM
GUEST,Patsy 24 Nov 10 - 03:06 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 10 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,Russ 24 Nov 10 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Nov 10 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,999 24 Nov 10 - 12:49 PM
lefthanded guitar 24 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Patsy 25 Nov 10 - 06:03 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Nov 10 - 10:47 AM
Bill D 25 Nov 10 - 10:50 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Nov 10 - 12:12 PM

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Subject: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:13 PM

I was gonna post this to a few threads in the past and on the go now, but, I think it deserves a thread of it's own.

"Whatever... just make tobacco illegal. Sign a law... two years hence, tobacco is illegal. Jail time for growing and selling it."

If the gubmint and the drug companies can make a profit off of death and misery from tobacco...


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:25 PM

I think that would be seriously dictatorial and even, to some degree, fascistic and counter-productive. History is not a cartoon, and people are not black-and-white pawns for others to impose their moral views upon.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: bankley
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:33 PM

the tobacco I buy IS illegal... comes right off the Rez,
no additives, no taxes.. at a fraction of the 'legal' cost

and that's just one form of combustibles available at the dark end of the street..


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:36 PM

Me too Ron, gotta make a run to the REZ meself ... wanna join Bruce, me and Bobart for a jelly jar of shine LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM

That was tried with alcohol and we know how successful it was. I strongly believe that the more legal substances are, the less interesting they are and the more easily the govt can tax them - and profit from them without having to support a huge police force to TRY to catch the criminals, many of whom are part of the govt. The ongoing "war on drugs" being a perfect example of this.

Dorothy


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM

Gary hey gnu
join us in a Jelly Jar of shine my friend ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:38 PM

OOps, I forgot to login. That at 4:37 is Dorothy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:39 PM

by the way, maybe if it were .. then I could quit the dang thing ... I hate it ... so dang addicted it isn't funny


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:43 PM

Don't make it illegal. Just tax the hell out of it. And then tax it again. At least until kids can't afford it. And adults will keep it under lock and key.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:45 PM

Oh? It does not work for alcohol and dope? Odd. The gubmit spends a fair bit of money on that and throws a fair few people in jail for it.

Seems to me that if tabacco causes so much misery and suffering and doesn't even get people high....


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:47 PM

I buy tobacco at $6.00/200 gms. In stores it costs about $90.00/200 gms. IMO, if alcohol were taxed at the rate tobacco is, a cheap 26 oz bottle of rye would cost about $1,240.

The government is TOO MUCH in our lives as it is. Tax tobacco at a higher rate and I'l fuckin' well grow my own, and piss on the revenoors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM

Oh... grow yer own is fine. But, hook children on a highly addictive drug that gives no high and is known to kill in so many ways and causes years of misery and slow painful deaths?


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM

"Tax tobacco at a higher rate and I'l fuckin' well grow my own, and piss on the revenoors. "

That's a WONDERFUL idea. Everybody can smoke as much tobacco as they want as long as they grow it themselves. PERFECT !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:56 PM

There'd be no way to stop it, Wesley. Just as Prohibition didn't stop alcohol and "Say NO to Drugs" didn't stop pot smokers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:57 PM

Making tobacco illegal would make organized crime very happy.

I say give exclusive rights to the North American Indians to grow and manufacture and market tobacco products with the proviso that the profits are distributed to all bands equitably. This would go some distance in redressing the wrongs that were, and continue to be, perpetrated on these peoples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM

They're the folks I buy from, Bobad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM

Good idea bo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 05:11 PM

It was $38 for a carton (10 packs) last year and it's almost $60 this year in New Hampshire. It might as well be illegal. I'm glad I quit, not just because of the money saved but the lessened likelihood I'll wind up like my dad did, coughing up his lungs.

Honestly though, you make a thing illegal or extremely expensive with a tax-inflated price, and you invite black market trade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Janie
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 05:15 PM

Prohibition didn't work, Gnu. And making MJ illegal never stopped me. (Random drug testing in the workplace, however, did.) I hate being a smoker, and as the taxes on tobacco, and the cost of living of living continues to rise, while my salary is stagnant, it is seeming like more and more motivation to quit.

As whoever said upthread, tax the hell out of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 05:37 PM

I suppose I should start by declaring that I am a pariah (as some would prefer to call me) - or legal (heavily taxed) smoker under the law of the country.

I have never heard of anyone being driven to acts of violence by smoking.

Violence - whether personal violence, interpersonal violence, such as rape, homicide, or domestic abuse; or group violence, such as unruliness and riotous acts at sporting events -- is a major concern to everyone.
Alcohol abuse and alcoholism cause a significant number of severe -- sometimes fatal -- health, social, and economic problems in the UK

That there is an association between alcohol use and all forms of violence has been known for many years

According to some medical studies, people with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), a psychiatric condition characterized by a pervasive pattern of violent behavior and/or a general disregard for other people's rights, may be particularly susceptible to alcohol-related aggression.

The American National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) reported in 2007 that

"Approximately one-half of all cases of sexual assault and rape involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, the victim, or both. In at least 80 percent of sexual assaults, both the perpetrator and the victim know each other; however, alcohol-involved sexual assaults often occur among strangers or people who do not know each other well."

and

"Researchers have investigated the role of alcohol abuse as both a cause and a consequence of child abuse. Although one might assume intuitively that parental alcohol abuse would increase a child's risk of experiencing physical or sexual abuse and neglect, the studies conducted to date do not unequivocally support this assumption. Conversely, studies consistently have found that childhood abuse and neglect frequently are associated with adult alcohol problems, at least among women."

furthermore

"As with other forms of violence, alcohol appears to play an important role in intimate partner violence."

So hands up who wants to ban booze too


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:07 PM

It's not a good idea to ban any of these commonly used recreational substances. It only creates a vast network of crime when you do, it gets people who are NOT really criminals into legal trouble, and it's a dictatorial infringement on those people's personal freedom to make their own choices in life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:22 PM

Next the government will want to ban Weiner dogs Little Hawk then what would we do


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:36 PM

It would be a better world......... if they banned stupid ideas that hadn't been thought through properly.

The duty on tobacco in the UK is criminal though - I recently saved about £700 by getting a year's worth fetched from Belgium.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 07:27 PM

You can't do it. As much as I hate tobacco I know what happened during Prohibition to alcohol. The law can't make people stop
poisoning themselves with tobacco or any other drugs including
fast food. I think it can be outlawed in certain places where
people who don't want to have to breathe the smoke. I'm glad that
most restaurants are doing this in major cities now. I'm glad
that this was done in the pubs in Ireland. But to outlaw it outright is not sensible as it is not sensible to outlaw marijuana
or any other drug. Outlawing it would result in criminal activity
where it would be sold underground as drugs are today.

Al Capone and the liquor trade. Las Vegas and gambling and whorehouses. The gangsters would profit and nothing constructive
would have been done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 07:50 PM

I hate the smell of tobacco being smoked but I ain't into bannin' it but would consider using a threatened ban in order to legalize pot... I mean, I think it's a good idea for folks who smoke tobacco and end up costing all of us for it's negative health costs to come on board to support leaglizing pot...

Something about the gov't getting into victimless crimes... Meanwhile the real crooks go scott free...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 07:59 PM

They seem to have got the right idea in Portugal .


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:17 AM

Smoking is dangerous. Did y'all ever notice that just before they used the firing squad all the old movie guys would ask for a last cigarette? Uh huh. And THEN what happened? Uh huh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM

I understand that bhutan outlawed tobacco a couple of years back - the only stste in the world currently to do that...but with what results i don't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:52 AM

I quit again a few months ago....and a bag of balishag was about 5 dollars...now it is over 11....such a waste of money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:57 AM

I think gnu's original post was actually just a puckish comment to the effect that the world's most powerful recreational drug suppliers are the tobacco companies. I could not agree more. They cold bloodedly kill more people than all the other drug barons put together. If drug barons were to advertise heroin for children on billboards, we would lynch the sons of bitches putting up the the posters. It is absurd that tobacco companies should be allowed a sort of psuedo respectability.
Peace, you talk about guys dying from their last cigarette. My mate Bill died from his first cigarette. Mind you, I guess it was unwise of him to smole it while he was repairing that gas leak...
Just a thought gnu, maybe the way to go would be the other way. We let the tobacco companies go to schools and give free samples to ten year olds - provided they clear up the ensuing piles of vomit themselves... Nothing like making a drug glamourous, is there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:58 AM

"...it was unwise of him to smole it..."

alanabit's spelling gremlins strike again...


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 11:38 AM

and make Alcihol illegel to


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:07 PM

Heck no - don't make illegal. Then we would miss out on all the taxes. But here's an idea. Let's add up all the costs of the smokers who are in hospitals due to smoking. Then divide those costs among the number of packs of cigeretts that will be sold next year. Then raise the taxes that same amount so the current smokers will be supporting the health care needs of hospitalized smokers. Call it "social" medicine. The society of smokers would be able to take care of their own. It works for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:29 PM

I'm puzzled by why many people get so punitive and aggressive about smoking tobacco.

All right it involves some serious health hazards, and a lot of people and a lot of people find it distasteful - but the same is true of gay sex. However people who go on about that in the same way that many feel entitled to talk about smoking and smokers are generally regarded as pretty dodgy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:46 PM

"I have never heard of anyone being driven to acts of violence by smoking."

I have seen some threaten violence when deprived of it...

But it is not terribly useful to try to equate tobacco & alcohol when deciding about taxes & bans..etc.

The major difference is: alcohol is not automatically harmful. Tobacco is. NO good can come of cigarettes...some folks live longer than others, but ALL smokers' health is affected. Moderate use of alcohol can be benefical.

We all know that IF someone just discovered this year that you could dry tobacco plants, chop it up and wrap paper around it and set fire to it and inhale the results.....and then applied to the FDA for permission to market it, they woud be turned down flat!
Tobacco is still legal because they got billions of people addicted before they proved how damaging it is.

Yes...I realize that IF it were banned, some folks would figger out how to grow their own, but tobacco addiction is a bit different than pot. You can survive a day at work without pot, but if you had to find a way to have an illegal ciggy every 20 minutes, it might make many more serious about quitting....(and tobacco is, I think, a bit harder to grow & process.)

Like all disputes, it ain't totally clear what the best path is....but simply giving up on limiting tobacco dangers is one BAD idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:47 PM

It is not technically true that nicotine provides "no high". It provides cerebral stimulation that sharpens the acuity of ratiocination and linguistic dexterity, I am certain. Every time I quit I get pure-dee stupid. :D


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:54 PM

(If you are stupid...how do you know? ☺) You mean, if I hide your cigs, I can get you to write in English?





















*hiding in corner*


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 03:40 PM

No high from tobacco?
Try going without for 24 hours or more, then sparking up. I just wish I could do that more easily..


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 03:42 PM

McGrath - I can think of lots of differences between gay sex and smoking tobacco. Smokers treat the world as their ashtray - they throw butts where ever they want to. You can't say that about gays. And you don't have to walk through a cloud of gay sex to get into a building because all of the gays are gathered just outside the door because it's a "no-sex" building. Should I go on?

There is a big difference between public and private behavior. Anyone who wants to smoke behind closed doors where I don't have to breathe the poison is welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned. Doing it in public - no matter if it's gay sex or smoking - is a different thing altogether.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 03:59 PM

There are differences, but also some parallels. But the very same people who would decry hostility towards gays have no qualms about expressing it towards smokers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM

Actually I would request the same behavior from both groups. Both activites should be enjoyed privately where it won't disturb others. If I check into a hotel room I have no idea if someone has had any sex in it of any sort - gay or straight. But you know if a smoker has been in the room. The same goes for cars, airplanes, trains ect.

Go walk out on the street and look at the curb. See any sex there? No. See a bunch of butts? Sure you do. Understand now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:19 PM

Public littering, and smoking in non-smoking rooms, is already covered by existing rules, Wes. You don't cure non-compliance by getting more draconian!

How do I know when I get stupid? Because I can feel the difference. How do you know when the mudcat server starts to slow down dramatically? It's like that.

ANd my use of large words in the foregoing post was tongue-in-cheek, sir.


:)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:27 PM

I think we oughta tax the hell out of religion. Then we wouldn't have to tax anything else. Religion had hurt more people than alcohol, grass and tobacco all rolled into one (don't do this at home, folks--not until I try it out and give you the "all clear").


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM

You can try to tax religion - but it's a lot easier to tax a tangible object than an intangible concept. One you can measure - the other you can't.

And now I know that enjoying clean air is draconian.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM

I wouldn't want tobacco to become illegal, for the same reasons iterated up thread.

However, in Alaska I would like tobacco to be sold only from liquor stores. For whatever reason, in Juneau (don't know about the rest of Alaska) even beer and wine are available only through liquor outlets.

If tobacco products were available only from there, it would promote the message that tobacco use is an *adult* activity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 05:15 PM

I'm fartin' around, Wesley. However, there are lots of things to tax--like corporations, multi-nationals, etc. Everytime a thread like this comes up, people suggest taxation as a method of waking up the Philistines. It doesn't work. I no longer buy 'legal' cigarettes because the tax is just too damned much. Tell me why it is that 200/gm of 'Indian' tobacco can sell for $6 and the 'legal' stuff is about 15 times more expensive? The government can kiss my royal Canadian in that regard. Will we next tax beef out of the market? It causes arteries to clog, as does butter, the yellow of eggs, etc. No mention of that yet. Consider it hereby mentioned. And pork, chicken skin, ANY food found to be deleterious to the health of people. Because they too end up in the health system. How about taxing drivers who have accidents. Not just money to the insurance company, but to the hospital systems. Yeah. Let's do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: maire-aine
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 05:18 PM

Well, I'm not smoking now, but that doesn't mean I never plan to have one ever again. In fact, when I reach 72, I plan to start again.

Maryanne


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 06:39 PM

Just as a matter of interest,Peace...I do NOT think churches and church property should be exempt from taxes. But I know what chance that has of being enacted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 07:00 PM

Make booze illegal first. Did you ever hear of someone coming home and wrecking the house or using a woman as a punchbag after smoking a packet of 20 ?

On a weekend night did you ever see someone jumping on the bonnets of parked cars, ripping off wing mirrors or throwing up over an ATM after a packet of 10 ?

Police man hours are doubled every Friday and Saturday night because of street thugs wrecking and breaking up public property, that isn't after a cigar ?

Go to the A & E dept, of your local hospital and talk to the staff about the bulk of their workload at weekends, it isn't caused my your grandmother using snuff.

May I add, I am neither a smoker or a drinker. Keep it fair and equal folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 08:49 PM

The indigenous peoples in the the Americas used tobacco as a "sacred" thing -- they didn't walk around with a pipe in their mouths, but passed the smoke communally (remind you of anything?). The Europeans gave these people alcohol and they gave the Europeans tobacco. Some in both camps got along fine without indulging or overindulging, but most who tried it didn't "Just Say No" and they provided things that have killed off many of each.

I wonder what other planets hold?


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 09:04 PM

Ebbie's idea of selling tobacco products only in liquor stores is fantastic! Would seriously cut down on kids getting it. Yes, I do know that adults buy booze for kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 09:05 PM

So you're advocating government owned and run liquor stores? I live in one of those states now. When they need cash they raise the price of booze.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 09:22 PM

Rapaire, ? I don't get it. So far as I know, all Alaskan liquor stores are privately owned. Do you have state-owned stores?

"Well, I'm not smoking now, but that doesn't mean I never plan to have one ever again. In fact, when I reach 72, I plan to start again." Maire-anne

That's funny, Mary Anne. When I quit smoking more than 30 years ago, I said the same thing. I also said that if I were diagnosed as having a terminal condition I would go back to smoking for the duration.

I changed my mind. Smokers tend to stink. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 10:14 PM

So do drinkers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 10:24 PM

So do those who pee, and other things, and those who sweat from toil or exertion.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 10:33 PM

Idaho, Utah, Ohio, Montgomery County Maryland, Kansas (I think)...et al. all have state-owned liquor stores. Fortunately, there are states nearby with more civilized behavior -- although I have a very nice bar stocked from Elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 11:11 PM

Iowa & Pennsylvania also used to- I stood in line at a depressing hole in Iowa once....Kansas did NOT when I lived there 30 years ago.

...and Montgomery County Maryland is getting a wee bit better in what they carry, but nowhere near as good as DC or Prince Georges County...or across the river in Virginia,


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 11:47 PM

It's not so much that smokers stink, Amos, as it is what hangs on their clothing. A nude smoker smells nice. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 11:52 PM

I prefer smoked salmon...or trout, or chicken, or turkey, or several kinds of cheese....


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 12:18 AM

Y'all smoke some real weird stuff in the USA, Rapaire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 03:13 AM

Everything around a smoker stinks. Their clothes, their shoes, their fingers, their hair, their car, their possessions, and the air in their near vicinity. The unpleasant smell is lessened, however, if they remove their clothing, no doubt about that...and there are worse smells than old tobacco smoke.

One or two, anyway... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 03:20 PM

So... she done fell off the board. I guess that means all the comments and sage pontifications are concluded.

My turn.

WHAT? Ya can't get there from here? Why not?

Prohibition did not work.... it would make criminals out of good citizens... blah blah blah... bullshit.

Tobacco causes cancer and it has no redeeming value. If you get cancer from tobacco, you can't have any weed to help you with your cancer treatment because the pOlice are out there waging a war on weed.

Wait... the pOlice are waging a war on weed? But, prohibition doesn't work... ahhh... WTF am I missing in all this?

Hmmm... maybe, if the pOlice were waging "the war" on tobacco and allowing cancer victims to get some relief with some reef, it might make a TINY BIT MORE SENSE???

So... what about jail time for growing and selling tobacco?

BTW, I never meant that you couldn't grow yer own. I meant, don't grow it and sell it to children with Fred Flinstone as the pusher.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 03:25 PM

The pusher is not a natural man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 05:52 PM

My God, that is pathetic. Oh well, I always detested the Flintstones anyway. They were an utterly crass microcosm of everything that completely sucks about the North American suburban consumer lifestyle...a la the suburbs of L.A. in the 50s and the early 60s. The psychology behind that show makes my flesh crawl.

There's no use making tobacco or alcohol or marijuana or anything else like that illegal. It just plays into the hands of criminal elements when you do, and it legally imperils many people who aren't criminals.

People (adults, I mean) have to decide for themselves whether or not to injest a harmful substance, and if they do...and if they do it without intruding on others and without breaking the other normal civil laws of society (such as theft, violence, property damage, trespassing, etc)...then that's entirely their own business. You can't force people against their own will to adopt a healthy lifestyle.

Imagine if they made it illegal, for instance, to overeat! ;-D People would be gathering in secret to pig out on huge buffets, and the cops would be bursting in and arresting everyone. Overweight people would be tailed by undercover cops in order to catch them in the act when they met their underworld caterer for their food "fix".

Man, it is all so silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 05:55 PM

I smoke. I enjoy smoking. Woodstock was a long time ago you hippies!

               Peace and love blah blah


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 05:55 PM

We made aliens illegal and they're still here!


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:12 PM

LH... "People (adults, I mean) have to decide for themselves whether or not to injest a harmful substance..."

But, that ain't the way it is. And, it sure as hell ain't the way it is for children.

Rig... hehehehehe. They should FO?


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:29 PM

Well, what I mean is, gnu...

It's unhealthy to eat excessively, drink excessively, smoke excessively, sleep excessively, exercise excessively, watch TV excessively, and do anything else excessively, but you cannot force people to make only the most healthy choices in life by passing laws against all these various things. After all, I know totally responsible and kindly adults, good citizens all, who do smoke marijuana or who smoke tobacco or who drink...but not excessively, and it doesn't cause them to engage in any harmful activities toward other people or toward society in general. They should not be penalized by draconian laws which make marijuana or alcohol or tobacco or anything else like that illegal...because they are NOT doing harm to anyone else as a result of their habit...and probably not much harm to themselves either. So it's their business if they want to grow and smoke their own marijuana. And it's no one else's business.

You have to let adults decide for themselves what to do to themselves in the privacy of their own lives.

As for children, some laws are definitely needed to protect children, and I think we all probably agree when it comes to that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 07:10 PM

Yes, it's always hard to deal with children on a whole range of legal issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Beer
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 11:27 PM

I quit 7 years ago. When i am told I have cancer I will start again.
Beer


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 08:31 AM

Years ago, I suggested a way to combine what are now the illegalities of smoking pot, with the ban of publicly smoking tobacco. To get a little, you have to give a little! I think "vices" should cost you!

First thing is take Marijuana off the "Narcotics list". It is not a narcotic and never has been(neither is "Coke", but we'll leave that one for now). Then, put the same restrictions on tobacco(and pot) that we do with alcohol. You have to be a certain age. Only to be consumed in the privacy of a home or a licenced establishment. In other words, nowhere in the public domain. Just like the places that sell alcohol you sell licenses and make the people who own these places hang out a shingle that says "Licensed Establishment". No more smoking outside and littering the streets with butts. No smoking in cars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:36 PM

Ontario to sue.

I hope every province and every US state and every country in the world does the same. It's far beyond time to stamp out this crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: 3refs
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:00 PM

I'm pretty sure that it's me who wrote the post above gnu. I forgot to sign in, but I recognize the statements.

Futhermore.

"The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the Prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this".

Albert Einstein, "My First Impression of the U.S.A.", 1921


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:25 PM

I'm with you, Mr. Gnu, sir...but the number of lawsuits necessary to do any good would tie up all the courts for years.

Like a lot of things which are bad for us, tobacco is not easy to back away from. It **IS** addictive, and in ways alcohol is not....and as I said before, alcohol in not necessarily harmful.

If tobacco is taxed TOO much, it will cause as much illegal marketing as prohibition of booze did.

I do know that 'fewer' folks are using it than did 50 years ago, and for non-smokers like me, I can now go to a restaurant or bar and be able to breathe. That's progress, I guess....but geeze, I hate imagining all the kids who WILL take it up, even if it's a smaller % than before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:41 PM

If Ontario wins in a Queen's court... the rest of us can sue on precedent.

Tie up the courts? Fuckin right! Put the piss to the devils that burn our children. Make them pay until they go away.

Can't be done? I say it must be done, at any cost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:24 PM

Make tobacco illegal

Do it Immediately.

If tobbacco went underground a cottage industry would spring up that would support many poor people who would no longer have to depend upon multi national corporations for their existence.

Add it to all the other hundreds of banned substances, just don't criminalize it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:36 PM

I don't 'think' you can grow decent tobacco just anywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Pot can be grown inside under lights...booze can be made in the bathtub, but tobacco, I think, needs special climate...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:02 PM

PQ is on board!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:39 PM

So, an old buddy called me a few nights ago. We shot the shit for a while and I told him I saw him in the hospital but I didn't have time to come back to where he was after I checked in at the clinic where I was. When I was done with the doc, I looked for him but to no avail.

That's when he told me. He is 67. Quit smoking 15 years ago. He was there for cheemo... lung cancer.

Seriously... it's time to ban this shit. As for all the arguements against a ban, if the RCMP can find time in their day to attempt to erradicate weed they may as well get at tobacco... it truely is a cancer on society that we do not need.

BTW... my buddy is one of the nicest guys you would ever have the privelege to meet. He has an infectious laugh and he's always about fun. Tall, handsome... a lady's man and a man's man... a true gentleman... a good buddy. Even now, he has a positive attitude and jokes about this but I wish tobacco had been banned years ago because this guy should not die earlier than need be.

Sappy... yeah. True... yeah. And there are thousands and thousands of sappy and true stories caused by this blight on humankind.

The debate is futile, useless and inane. If nothing is done, people will continue to die. Like my buddy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:40 PM

Make it a class one substance. End of story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:46 PM

I donno, gn-ze...

As bad as it sounds, maybe we just need to provide it cheap to anyone who wants it after they have completed an 8 hour course showing what tobacco is goin' to do to them... Pictures, stats and all... Then have them sign a waiver where they will forgo any treatment that is paid for from public funds, including burial expenses...

Kinda Darwinism at its best...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:06 PM

Aren't enough things illegal, yet?? Why not make pine cones illegal??..they're less healthy to smoke than tobacco.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:35 PM

Tobacco isn't the only thing that causes lung cancer. "Unknown" is right up there. Tobacco is, however, the only thing I know of that can kill when used as intended.

As bad as it is, making it illegal isn't the solution. Didn't work for alcohol or pot. Making a thing illegal just creates a black market.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:46 PM

Education v. Prohibition, that is the issue...


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:02 AM

Oh what the hell...they even want to make home gardens illegal. Monsanto wants to corner the market on all seeds, and irradiate the rest. Youy taxed corruption at work...AGAIN!

Gfs


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 03:06 AM

No. I know in an ideal world anything that can lessen the risk of cancer theoretically is right but there is so much more mamby-pamby ideas going on in the UK right now people will eventually get very fed up with it and say what the heck. Tobacco here anyway is mostly used in roll ups which on average is normally smaller with less chemicals than the ready made B&H's and I have noticed that people tend to habitually smoke them less than the ready made brands and the trouble is with mental illnessess in reabilitation the last thing that would be denied patients is tobacco. The pouches of tobacco have warnings on them which I think is enough.

I think so called energy caffeine drinks and pro-plus should be looked into a bit more if anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 07:26 AM

I can't say my observation agrees with yours re the rollups, Patsy. I know quite a few people who still smoke, but can think of none of them who rolls their own, rather than buying them in packets at the unbelievable price they are now. I always say that campaigns to stop smoking would do better not to show pix of diseased lungs, but of empty wallets!

I note that one of the givers-up above who thought at first that she would go back to it when she gets old or ill has changed her mind. I suspect that even those who still think they will return to the habit in due course, after years without it, will change their minds also if/when it comes to it. I had my last smoke on 3 April 1975. Nothing in the world would induce me to return to it now.

As to the topic of the thread ~~ buggered if I know what would be for the best. Prohibition, as we know from bitter experience, brings more problems than it solves. Education in such contexts [cf the ongoing hiv/AIDS thread] experience shows to be unhappily most limited in its effects. The present laws here about no smoking in public buildings &c have had a beneficial effect, of course; & the speed with which people have accepted and adjusted to them is remarkable: I find that visitors who smoke these days regard it as a courtesy to go out into the garden to do so, though I assure them that my sense of hospitality would not require any such recourse.

But the problems both of alcohol and nicotine addiction certainly remain: a sort of Original Sin to mock us all...

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 08:34 AM

Everything is a trade off.

The attempts to ban stuff has a track record that should be taken seriously.

For example, the 18th amendment had significant negative and hopefully unintended consequences.

We just create a different set of problems.

The practical effects of criminalizing smokers would probably be comparable.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 11:57 AM

How about banning banners?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:49 PM

`Aren't enough things illegal, yet?? Why not make pine cones illegal??..they're less healthy to smoke than tobacco.`

Well, I for one think it`s a ridiculous notion. How would one make a really good pesto sauce were it not for pine nuts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM

Too late to make tobacco illegal. I'd like to see trans fats and high fructose corn syrup taken out of our foods tho.I read lables on everything now b/c you would NOT believe where these nasty things are lurking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 06:03 AM

They could denounce Sir Walter Raleigh for bringing the stuff over here in the first place.

What about snuff? There are lots of mature ladies who like the occasional pinch of snuff and ironically have reached their century. Who should deny them that pleasure if it makes them happy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 10:47 AM

I'd just raise the corporation tax level of the tobacco companies to 99%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 10:50 AM

Prohibition against alcohol, as I said way back up there, was hard because it can be made anywhere...even at home...from local stuff. Marijuna can be grown in your basement. But growing tobacco is not nearly as easy, and importing thru smuggling enough to feed all the addictions would be durn near impossible.

   I asked once before in a thread like this.... if tobacco were just discovered and invented today, what chance would it have to to be 'legalized' at ANY price?

I assume all the new taxes and restrictions are a covert attempt to gradually reduce usage to zero, but I don't hold much hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 12:12 PM

Despite some pessimistic notes struck here, e.g. by BillD above, that we are permanently stuck with the horrible habit, I do think I perceive some hopeful signs that it might not last too many more generations. In my youth, it was, not unacceptable exactly, but slightly eccentric, to be a non-smoker. Now, though, it has gone somewhat to the other extreme, and those who do smoke often come over as rather apologetic about it. The success of the UK government's "No smoking in places of public resort" legislation, as I think I have remarked already in another post, is amazing. Visitors, as I have said, seem to think it would be unmannerly to smoke in my home anywhere except out in the garden, though I assure them that my hospitality would not be outraged by a few hours of lingering tobacco smell.

All these seem to be straws in the wind to indicate the ultimate demise of smoking. Not immediately; but I think in a few generations it may well have gone the way of chewing tobacco quids.

Hope so, anyhow.

~Michael~


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