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BS: Make tobacco illegal?

gnu 27 Jul 09 - 04:13 PM
Amos 27 Jul 09 - 04:25 PM
bankley 27 Jul 09 - 04:33 PM
olddude 27 Jul 09 - 04:36 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM
olddude 27 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 09 - 04:38 PM
olddude 27 Jul 09 - 04:39 PM
Wesley S 27 Jul 09 - 04:43 PM
gnu 27 Jul 09 - 04:45 PM
Peace 27 Jul 09 - 04:47 PM
gnu 27 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM
Wesley S 27 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM
Peace 27 Jul 09 - 04:56 PM
bobad 27 Jul 09 - 04:57 PM
Peace 27 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM
gnu 27 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM
Jeri 27 Jul 09 - 05:11 PM
Janie 27 Jul 09 - 05:15 PM
Emma B 27 Jul 09 - 05:37 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 09 - 06:07 PM
olddude 27 Jul 09 - 06:22 PM
Smokey. 27 Jul 09 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Stringsinger 27 Jul 09 - 07:27 PM
Bobert 27 Jul 09 - 07:50 PM
Smokey. 27 Jul 09 - 07:59 PM
GUEST,Peace 28 Jul 09 - 02:17 AM
GUEST,Dáithí 28 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM
Amergin 28 Jul 09 - 04:52 AM
alanabit 28 Jul 09 - 04:57 AM
alanabit 28 Jul 09 - 04:58 AM
goatfell 28 Jul 09 - 11:38 AM
Wesley S 28 Jul 09 - 02:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jul 09 - 02:29 PM
Bill D 28 Jul 09 - 02:46 PM
Amos 28 Jul 09 - 02:47 PM
Bill D 28 Jul 09 - 02:54 PM
Smokey. 28 Jul 09 - 03:40 PM
Wesley S 28 Jul 09 - 03:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jul 09 - 03:59 PM
Wesley S 28 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM
Amos 28 Jul 09 - 04:19 PM
Peace 28 Jul 09 - 04:27 PM
Wesley S 28 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM
Ebbie 28 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM
Peace 28 Jul 09 - 05:15 PM
maire-aine 28 Jul 09 - 05:18 PM
Bill D 28 Jul 09 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,Russ Meyer 28 Jul 09 - 07:00 PM
Rapparee 28 Jul 09 - 08:49 PM

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Subject: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:13 PM

I was gonna post this to a few threads in the past and on the go now, but, I think it deserves a thread of it's own.

"Whatever... just make tobacco illegal. Sign a law... two years hence, tobacco is illegal. Jail time for growing and selling it."

If the gubmint and the drug companies can make a profit off of death and misery from tobacco...


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:25 PM

I think that would be seriously dictatorial and even, to some degree, fascistic and counter-productive. History is not a cartoon, and people are not black-and-white pawns for others to impose their moral views upon.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: bankley
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:33 PM

the tobacco I buy IS illegal... comes right off the Rez,
no additives, no taxes.. at a fraction of the 'legal' cost

and that's just one form of combustibles available at the dark end of the street..


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:36 PM

Me too Ron, gotta make a run to the REZ meself ... wanna join Bruce, me and Bobart for a jelly jar of shine LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM

That was tried with alcohol and we know how successful it was. I strongly believe that the more legal substances are, the less interesting they are and the more easily the govt can tax them - and profit from them without having to support a huge police force to TRY to catch the criminals, many of whom are part of the govt. The ongoing "war on drugs" being a perfect example of this.

Dorothy


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM

Gary hey gnu
join us in a Jelly Jar of shine my friend ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:38 PM

OOps, I forgot to login. That at 4:37 is Dorothy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:39 PM

by the way, maybe if it were .. then I could quit the dang thing ... I hate it ... so dang addicted it isn't funny


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:43 PM

Don't make it illegal. Just tax the hell out of it. And then tax it again. At least until kids can't afford it. And adults will keep it under lock and key.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:45 PM

Oh? It does not work for alcohol and dope? Odd. The gubmit spends a fair bit of money on that and throws a fair few people in jail for it.

Seems to me that if tabacco causes so much misery and suffering and doesn't even get people high....


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:47 PM

I buy tobacco at $6.00/200 gms. In stores it costs about $90.00/200 gms. IMO, if alcohol were taxed at the rate tobacco is, a cheap 26 oz bottle of rye would cost about $1,240.

The government is TOO MUCH in our lives as it is. Tax tobacco at a higher rate and I'l fuckin' well grow my own, and piss on the revenoors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM

Oh... grow yer own is fine. But, hook children on a highly addictive drug that gives no high and is known to kill in so many ways and causes years of misery and slow painful deaths?


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM

"Tax tobacco at a higher rate and I'l fuckin' well grow my own, and piss on the revenoors. "

That's a WONDERFUL idea. Everybody can smoke as much tobacco as they want as long as they grow it themselves. PERFECT !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:56 PM

There'd be no way to stop it, Wesley. Just as Prohibition didn't stop alcohol and "Say NO to Drugs" didn't stop pot smokers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:57 PM

Making tobacco illegal would make organized crime very happy.

I say give exclusive rights to the North American Indians to grow and manufacture and market tobacco products with the proviso that the profits are distributed to all bands equitably. This would go some distance in redressing the wrongs that were, and continue to be, perpetrated on these peoples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM

They're the folks I buy from, Bobad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM

Good idea bo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 05:11 PM

It was $38 for a carton (10 packs) last year and it's almost $60 this year in New Hampshire. It might as well be illegal. I'm glad I quit, not just because of the money saved but the lessened likelihood I'll wind up like my dad did, coughing up his lungs.

Honestly though, you make a thing illegal or extremely expensive with a tax-inflated price, and you invite black market trade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Janie
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 05:15 PM

Prohibition didn't work, Gnu. And making MJ illegal never stopped me. (Random drug testing in the workplace, however, did.) I hate being a smoker, and as the taxes on tobacco, and the cost of living of living continues to rise, while my salary is stagnant, it is seeming like more and more motivation to quit.

As whoever said upthread, tax the hell out of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 05:37 PM

I suppose I should start by declaring that I am a pariah (as some would prefer to call me) - or legal (heavily taxed) smoker under the law of the country.

I have never heard of anyone being driven to acts of violence by smoking.

Violence - whether personal violence, interpersonal violence, such as rape, homicide, or domestic abuse; or group violence, such as unruliness and riotous acts at sporting events -- is a major concern to everyone.
Alcohol abuse and alcoholism cause a significant number of severe -- sometimes fatal -- health, social, and economic problems in the UK

That there is an association between alcohol use and all forms of violence has been known for many years

According to some medical studies, people with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), a psychiatric condition characterized by a pervasive pattern of violent behavior and/or a general disregard for other people's rights, may be particularly susceptible to alcohol-related aggression.

The American National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) reported in 2007 that

"Approximately one-half of all cases of sexual assault and rape involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, the victim, or both. In at least 80 percent of sexual assaults, both the perpetrator and the victim know each other; however, alcohol-involved sexual assaults often occur among strangers or people who do not know each other well."

and

"Researchers have investigated the role of alcohol abuse as both a cause and a consequence of child abuse. Although one might assume intuitively that parental alcohol abuse would increase a child's risk of experiencing physical or sexual abuse and neglect, the studies conducted to date do not unequivocally support this assumption. Conversely, studies consistently have found that childhood abuse and neglect frequently are associated with adult alcohol problems, at least among women."

furthermore

"As with other forms of violence, alcohol appears to play an important role in intimate partner violence."

So hands up who wants to ban booze too


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:07 PM

It's not a good idea to ban any of these commonly used recreational substances. It only creates a vast network of crime when you do, it gets people who are NOT really criminals into legal trouble, and it's a dictatorial infringement on those people's personal freedom to make their own choices in life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:22 PM

Next the government will want to ban Weiner dogs Little Hawk then what would we do


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:36 PM

It would be a better world......... if they banned stupid ideas that hadn't been thought through properly.

The duty on tobacco in the UK is criminal though - I recently saved about £700 by getting a year's worth fetched from Belgium.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 07:27 PM

You can't do it. As much as I hate tobacco I know what happened during Prohibition to alcohol. The law can't make people stop
poisoning themselves with tobacco or any other drugs including
fast food. I think it can be outlawed in certain places where
people who don't want to have to breathe the smoke. I'm glad that
most restaurants are doing this in major cities now. I'm glad
that this was done in the pubs in Ireland. But to outlaw it outright is not sensible as it is not sensible to outlaw marijuana
or any other drug. Outlawing it would result in criminal activity
where it would be sold underground as drugs are today.

Al Capone and the liquor trade. Las Vegas and gambling and whorehouses. The gangsters would profit and nothing constructive
would have been done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 07:50 PM

I hate the smell of tobacco being smoked but I ain't into bannin' it but would consider using a threatened ban in order to legalize pot... I mean, I think it's a good idea for folks who smoke tobacco and end up costing all of us for it's negative health costs to come on board to support leaglizing pot...

Something about the gov't getting into victimless crimes... Meanwhile the real crooks go scott free...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 07:59 PM

They seem to have got the right idea in Portugal .


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:17 AM

Smoking is dangerous. Did y'all ever notice that just before they used the firing squad all the old movie guys would ask for a last cigarette? Uh huh. And THEN what happened? Uh huh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM

I understand that bhutan outlawed tobacco a couple of years back - the only stste in the world currently to do that...but with what results i don't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:52 AM

I quit again a few months ago....and a bag of balishag was about 5 dollars...now it is over 11....such a waste of money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:57 AM

I think gnu's original post was actually just a puckish comment to the effect that the world's most powerful recreational drug suppliers are the tobacco companies. I could not agree more. They cold bloodedly kill more people than all the other drug barons put together. If drug barons were to advertise heroin for children on billboards, we would lynch the sons of bitches putting up the the posters. It is absurd that tobacco companies should be allowed a sort of psuedo respectability.
Peace, you talk about guys dying from their last cigarette. My mate Bill died from his first cigarette. Mind you, I guess it was unwise of him to smole it while he was repairing that gas leak...
Just a thought gnu, maybe the way to go would be the other way. We let the tobacco companies go to schools and give free samples to ten year olds - provided they clear up the ensuing piles of vomit themselves... Nothing like making a drug glamourous, is there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:58 AM

"...it was unwise of him to smole it..."

alanabit's spelling gremlins strike again...


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 11:38 AM

and make Alcihol illegel to


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:07 PM

Heck no - don't make illegal. Then we would miss out on all the taxes. But here's an idea. Let's add up all the costs of the smokers who are in hospitals due to smoking. Then divide those costs among the number of packs of cigeretts that will be sold next year. Then raise the taxes that same amount so the current smokers will be supporting the health care needs of hospitalized smokers. Call it "social" medicine. The society of smokers would be able to take care of their own. It works for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:29 PM

I'm puzzled by why many people get so punitive and aggressive about smoking tobacco.

All right it involves some serious health hazards, and a lot of people and a lot of people find it distasteful - but the same is true of gay sex. However people who go on about that in the same way that many feel entitled to talk about smoking and smokers are generally regarded as pretty dodgy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:46 PM

"I have never heard of anyone being driven to acts of violence by smoking."

I have seen some threaten violence when deprived of it...

But it is not terribly useful to try to equate tobacco & alcohol when deciding about taxes & bans..etc.

The major difference is: alcohol is not automatically harmful. Tobacco is. NO good can come of cigarettes...some folks live longer than others, but ALL smokers' health is affected. Moderate use of alcohol can be benefical.

We all know that IF someone just discovered this year that you could dry tobacco plants, chop it up and wrap paper around it and set fire to it and inhale the results.....and then applied to the FDA for permission to market it, they woud be turned down flat!
Tobacco is still legal because they got billions of people addicted before they proved how damaging it is.

Yes...I realize that IF it were banned, some folks would figger out how to grow their own, but tobacco addiction is a bit different than pot. You can survive a day at work without pot, but if you had to find a way to have an illegal ciggy every 20 minutes, it might make many more serious about quitting....(and tobacco is, I think, a bit harder to grow & process.)

Like all disputes, it ain't totally clear what the best path is....but simply giving up on limiting tobacco dangers is one BAD idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:47 PM

It is not technically true that nicotine provides "no high". It provides cerebral stimulation that sharpens the acuity of ratiocination and linguistic dexterity, I am certain. Every time I quit I get pure-dee stupid. :D


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 02:54 PM

(If you are stupid...how do you know? ☺) You mean, if I hide your cigs, I can get you to write in English?





















*hiding in corner*


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 03:40 PM

No high from tobacco?
Try going without for 24 hours or more, then sparking up. I just wish I could do that more easily..


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 03:42 PM

McGrath - I can think of lots of differences between gay sex and smoking tobacco. Smokers treat the world as their ashtray - they throw butts where ever they want to. You can't say that about gays. And you don't have to walk through a cloud of gay sex to get into a building because all of the gays are gathered just outside the door because it's a "no-sex" building. Should I go on?

There is a big difference between public and private behavior. Anyone who wants to smoke behind closed doors where I don't have to breathe the poison is welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned. Doing it in public - no matter if it's gay sex or smoking - is a different thing altogether.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 03:59 PM

There are differences, but also some parallels. But the very same people who would decry hostility towards gays have no qualms about expressing it towards smokers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM

Actually I would request the same behavior from both groups. Both activites should be enjoyed privately where it won't disturb others. If I check into a hotel room I have no idea if someone has had any sex in it of any sort - gay or straight. But you know if a smoker has been in the room. The same goes for cars, airplanes, trains ect.

Go walk out on the street and look at the curb. See any sex there? No. See a bunch of butts? Sure you do. Understand now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:19 PM

Public littering, and smoking in non-smoking rooms, is already covered by existing rules, Wes. You don't cure non-compliance by getting more draconian!

How do I know when I get stupid? Because I can feel the difference. How do you know when the mudcat server starts to slow down dramatically? It's like that.

ANd my use of large words in the foregoing post was tongue-in-cheek, sir.


:)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:27 PM

I think we oughta tax the hell out of religion. Then we wouldn't have to tax anything else. Religion had hurt more people than alcohol, grass and tobacco all rolled into one (don't do this at home, folks--not until I try it out and give you the "all clear").


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM

You can try to tax religion - but it's a lot easier to tax a tangible object than an intangible concept. One you can measure - the other you can't.

And now I know that enjoying clean air is draconian.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM

I wouldn't want tobacco to become illegal, for the same reasons iterated up thread.

However, in Alaska I would like tobacco to be sold only from liquor stores. For whatever reason, in Juneau (don't know about the rest of Alaska) even beer and wine are available only through liquor outlets.

If tobacco products were available only from there, it would promote the message that tobacco use is an *adult* activity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 05:15 PM

I'm fartin' around, Wesley. However, there are lots of things to tax--like corporations, multi-nationals, etc. Everytime a thread like this comes up, people suggest taxation as a method of waking up the Philistines. It doesn't work. I no longer buy 'legal' cigarettes because the tax is just too damned much. Tell me why it is that 200/gm of 'Indian' tobacco can sell for $6 and the 'legal' stuff is about 15 times more expensive? The government can kiss my royal Canadian in that regard. Will we next tax beef out of the market? It causes arteries to clog, as does butter, the yellow of eggs, etc. No mention of that yet. Consider it hereby mentioned. And pork, chicken skin, ANY food found to be deleterious to the health of people. Because they too end up in the health system. How about taxing drivers who have accidents. Not just money to the insurance company, but to the hospital systems. Yeah. Let's do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: maire-aine
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 05:18 PM

Well, I'm not smoking now, but that doesn't mean I never plan to have one ever again. In fact, when I reach 72, I plan to start again.

Maryanne


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 06:39 PM

Just as a matter of interest,Peace...I do NOT think churches and church property should be exempt from taxes. But I know what chance that has of being enacted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 07:00 PM

Make booze illegal first. Did you ever hear of someone coming home and wrecking the house or using a woman as a punchbag after smoking a packet of 20 ?

On a weekend night did you ever see someone jumping on the bonnets of parked cars, ripping off wing mirrors or throwing up over an ATM after a packet of 10 ?

Police man hours are doubled every Friday and Saturday night because of street thugs wrecking and breaking up public property, that isn't after a cigar ?

Go to the A & E dept, of your local hospital and talk to the staff about the bulk of their workload at weekends, it isn't caused my your grandmother using snuff.

May I add, I am neither a smoker or a drinker. Keep it fair and equal folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Make tobacco illegal?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 08:49 PM

The indigenous peoples in the the Americas used tobacco as a "sacred" thing -- they didn't walk around with a pipe in their mouths, but passed the smoke communally (remind you of anything?). The Europeans gave these people alcohol and they gave the Europeans tobacco. Some in both camps got along fine without indulging or overindulging, but most who tried it didn't "Just Say No" and they provided things that have killed off many of each.

I wonder what other planets hold?


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