Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: John P
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 04:22 PM

Do folk singers who write songs about politics do so because they are trying to persuade, or because they write about whatever they are thinking about?

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOLK SONG ARMY (Tom Lehrer)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 04:07 PM

THE FOLK SONG ARMY
(Tom Lehrer)

We are the Folk Song Army,
Ev'ryone of us cares.
We all hate poverty, war, and injustice,
Unlike the rest of you squares.

There are innocuous folk songs,
But we regard them with scorn.
The folks who sing 'em have no social conscience
Why, they don't even care if Jimmy Crack Corn.

If you feel dissatisfaction,
Strum your frustrations away,
Some people may prefer action,
But give me a folk song any old day.

The tune don't have to be clever,
And it don't matter if you put a coupla extra syllables into a line.
It sounds more ethnic if it ain't good English,
And it don't ever gotta rhyme---excuse me---rhyne.

Remember the war against Franco?
That's the kind where each of us belongs.
Though he may have won all the battles,
We had all the good songs.

So join in the Folk Song Army,
Guitars are the weapons we bring
To the fight against poverty, war, and injustice.
Ready! Aim! Sing!

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Goose Gander
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 03:59 PM

Jim -

My comment about 'us' and the 'boom' years was parenthetical to my point about the inadequacy of left/right, liberal/conservative divisions. As an illustration, I posted a conservative writer's positive review of an excellent book 'of the people' that many observers might pigeon-hole as a 'left-wing' analysis. I thought my meaning should have been fairly obvious, but perhaps not.

During the 'boom' years, I worked as a school teacher, warehouse worker, and 'temporary office worker', and I currently work in a bookstore. So I obviously am a fat-cat priest of Mammon, worthy only of immolation by an angry mob.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 03:28 PM

Jim Carroll, there are many, many who would care to differ with your opinion and believe that folk music does not have to just be performed by the toothless or poor to be considered "real" folk music. There are many, many fans of the popular folk music by the entertainers I mentioned and scoff at the elistist and snobbish definition of what kind of folk music they listen to for musical enjoyment only. They do not want agendas. They want music. Basically, they want you to shut up and sing.   Tommy Makem was a superb folk music entertainer who played to huge audiences. People liked his music and could care less about his politics. Believe it.

This is an age old arguement. It is also as devisive as politics itself. There is nothing wrong with folk music with superb instruments, smooth harmonys, nice clothes, and actually for entertainment. Perhaps some folk musicians should concern themselves more for what an audience actually wants to hear. Too many think it is just about themselves.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 03:10 PM

Folk Entertainer - you seem to be confusing the terms 'popular' and 'good' - the two are not the same.
The stars of the folk boom were performing an erzatz, watered down version of folk music, and were dressed up in monkey suits and Aran sweaters by the industry in order to do so. What they gave the audiences had little to do with real folk music. I treasure a comment by Tommy Makem's mother Sarah - one of the finest traditional singers Ireland ever produced, who, when asked about her son's popularity said, "Our Tommy can't sing".
Dylan is a wonderful example of somebody who milked folk music, then moved off to fresh fields and pastures more profitable when the cow ran dry.
Those you named distinguished themselves not only as great singers and musicians, but also people who stood up to be counted; they rose far above the description 'entertainer'. Didn't Senator Mac. put Pete Seeger in the slammer for his courage in saying no to the witch-trials?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 02:45 PM

Captain Birdseye, The Weavers were popular, but as a general rule were dead as far as folk music entertainers go by the time Tom Dooley and the big folk boom hit. I left them out because it was ultimately their politics and their involvement in politics led to their popular demise. Pete Seeger was popular to many for his folk music, but again was extremely political on stage. There are those who like to hear Pete's music, but not his preachy rants. Bob Dylan came after the folk artists I mentioned, but many of his songs became hits by others, and his audience still wants his "hits" in concert. Woody Guthrie I could never really consider a folk music entertainer in the same sense. Agenda trumps entertainment. Not always disagreeing with that approach. But the fact is, folk music as entertainment has always been more popular than political folk music.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: stallion
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 02:44 PM

guest TJ, about battlefield promotions and rank, WWII pilots from the "right background" were pilot officers the "wrong sort" were seargent pilots. Anyway, this has been discussed in a way before, it's about empathy, can anyone sing a song about a life of begging when they have never been a beggar themselves, so if, by and large, republicans are richer maybe they don't feel inclined to associate with the views expressed in a lot of the songs in the folk genre, like exploitation, anti war, anti establishment, poaching, tresspassing and romanticising the fellons.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 02:27 PM

how right you are, Jim.
I was in Bantry,yesterday.
there was a Queue outside the dole office of forty people.
I dont have a pension.
I am lucky I am still playing now and again.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 02:11 PM

"(though plenty of 'us' weren't complaining during the boom years)."
Don't know how you fared during the 'boom' years Michael. I worked (as an electrician) and earned a modest living.
All that has changed is that, because of the state of the economy, brought about, as I said, by greedy financiers and incompetent and corrupt politicians, my standard of living is quite likely to plummet. Recently my local hospital closed its A&E department, so I now have to survive a 60 mile ambulance ride if I (or any belonging to me) have an accident, any small savings I have is under constant threat because of the possibility of the bank going under, my pension for a lifetimes worth is diminishing in value daily....... 'Us' bear the brunt of a recession and gain little from a boom. On the other hand, life appears to go on as usual for 'them' (who got us where we are at present).
I live in the west of Ireland, where it is virtually imossible to find a family that hasn't been affected down the years by emigration. Now, it appears, the youth of this country (at least, the children of 'us') will be taking to the boats again in order to earn a living.
Folk entertainer:
The music industry capitalised on folk music, which had been put on the map by pioneers like Guthrie, The Weavers, Alan Lomax, Ewan MacColl, Bert Lloyd..... left wingers all.
The industry exploited it when it was profitable and discarded it when it ceased to be so. You are, of course right, they were not driven by politics, but by profit, and the music was no more than a commodity to be sold on the market.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 01:10 PM

folk entertainer,you have missed out the Weavers and PeteSeeger and Bob Dylan and Woody Guthrie,as I said before,folkmusic includes both songs that are intended to persuade politically,and songs that are just veey good stories and even: love songs.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:52 PM

Those of us who find value in music and in singing together do have something very important in common, despite whatever other differences we might have. Even the most belligerent know-nothing xenophobes and racists see themseves and their friends as downtrodden common working-folks ~ they simply misidentify their enemies when they buy into the ridiculous idea that their problems should be blamed on some other downtrodden group, usually folks even less privileged then themselves. ("We're broke because the poor people got all the money.")

If there is an actual "Them," it's the coldhearted servants of Mammon who don't care who and how many they trample upon to enrich themselves.

I don't think there are very many mergers-and-acquisitions specialists, investment bankers, Ponzi schemers, etc., who enjoy community singalongs.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:52 PM

Folk Music was made popular in the 1950s and early 1960s not by the Left, but by Folk Music Entertainers like The Kingston Trio, The Highwaymen, New Christy Minstrels, Brother Four, etc. These people were musicians and entertainers, not driven by politics. Their music was widely accepted and not challenged by the masses who enjoyed folk music for what it was: Good music that entertained. That is why they had hit records. A lot of that has been lost. Political folk music is devisive, folk music that entertains is still loved by many. The elitist, political folk singer is scorned because many are incapable of acknowledging that first, and an audience second.

Believe me when I tell you that is the truth that most certainly always has and always will annoy the political, trying to save the world folk singer vs the folk singer who sings what is entertaining and offensive to no one. It's why groups like The Kingston Trio, even in their 21st century incarnation, still fill concert halls.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Goose Gander
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:29 PM

In that case, Jim, the Us and Them is fairly easy to distinguish (though plenty of 'us' weren't complaining during the boom years).

But it's not always so simple. One example: this laudatory review of Something's Rising - dealing with mountaintop removal in Appalachia, featuring Jean Richie among others - that was printed in the very conservative Washington Times . . . .

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 11:57 AM

"If ever there was an illustration of the fact that there is really no "them" and no "us," that was it."
Funny you should say that. At this present moment we are in the midst of an economic crisis caused largely by avaricious bankers and property speculators, ably assisted by (at best) incompetent and (more likely) corrupt politicians. The 'them' who got the world into this mess with their greed and incompetence are being rewarded with large bonuses and golden handshakes, while the 'us' who, by and large have had little to do with the mess we are in are being punished with redundancy, cuts in wages, privileges and benefits and a massive downgrading of our stadard of living and our security - now tell me how this no 'them and us' works again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 11:08 AM

During World War II many young officers were killed or wounded, creating leadership vacancies instantly. As a result, numerous enlisted men in battlefield conditions thus found themselves the recipients of "battlefield commissions," instantly transforming "one of us" into "one of them." If ever there was an illustration of the fact that there is really no "them" and no "us," that was it. Whether in war, sports or politics,only those who understand "we" will ultimately prevail.

By the way, that distinction is also at the root of most musical "artistic differences" that doom so many talented groups to failure and breakup.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:14 PM

I should have added that one of the first assembled collections of songs was 'The Political Songs of England' (from the reign of John to that of Edward II) by Thomas Wright, half of which were in Latin.
As I said, political songs have been with us for a long time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 04:57 PM

Many of our traditional songs rose out of political situations.
In Ireland there are thousands of songs which were made as a direct result of the the Irish struggles for independence from Britain - 1798, 1876, 1916 to 1922.
The emigrations following the Famine produced, and are still producing the second largest section of the Irish repertoire (the first being love songs).
The jewel in the crown of the British repertoire (IMO), the transportation songs came into being from a situation caused by the siezure of common land by the English aristocracy.
The Jacobite wars produced its own Scots repertoire.
The Chartist movement led to pages of songs being published weekly in political journals of the time.
The Industrial Revolution gave rise to many songs about conditions in the mills and mines, at sea, in the armed forces.....
Political events throughout the 20th century produced songs on nuclear disarmament, South African aparthied, Viet Nam, Cuba, Chile, the miners, Turkey, Chile, Thatcher....
I haven't started on the hom-grown US repertoire, - the War of Independence, The Civil War, the dust bowls, the unionisation of the mining industry...... let's face it - folk song has always covered politics to one degree or another.
The very fact that our folk songs are the direct creation of working people - a class that, up to fairly recently, has been said to have no creative culture of its own, is a political statement in its own right.
Having said that, there is another side to the argument.
We (2 Brits) were visiting this part of the west of Ireland throughout the latest 'troubles'. At the time that Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers were dying we arrived to black flags draping the streets of Miltown Malbay. Everywhere we went we heard support for the strikers and contempt for the Thatcher Government for allowing such an atrocity to take place.
We never once met with hostility and were welcomed as friends.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:14 AM

I'm "beating a dead horse" here. Folk music will always
transcend any political, religious or ideological point-of-
view.
[QUOTE Frank Hamilton]absolutely correct,but it can also include it,here are two examples of songs that fall into both categories,Polly Vaughan or Tam lin,and in the other category,Which side are you on and Joe Hill.
there will always be people whose minds are made up and whose political views are intransigient,but there will also be people who are more receptive to different ideas,and who are open to changing their views.
Folk music can and does include songs that are capable of political persuasion,it also includes FOLK SONGS that are very good stories,Tam Lin,is one such example,a song that does transcend ,political and religious and ideological points of view.
so both Frank and Jim are correct,even if they disagree with each other.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 06:14 AM

" I don't think that folk music can be used for persuation of any kind" don't forget that it was said that "Lilly bolaro" 'sang' James the second from three thrones.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 03:32 AM

"I don't think that folk music can be used for persuasion of any kind."
Not sure about that, but it certainly can introduce people to an alternative point of view even if it doesn't persuade them. Many of the songs exposed the atrocities in Viet Nam and encouraged the setting up of across-the-board organisations as Folksingers For Freedom in Viet Nam.
It can also serve as a tremendous morale booster - kept many of us going on the long miles from Aldermaston to London.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 07:53 PM

Love songs, eh? I think of them as an expression of love, not a means for persuading someone you love them. Maybe I never got it right? I never loved a woman with black hair. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 06:58 PM

I don't think that folk music can be used
for persuasion of any kind.

If that were true it would mean that folk songs were a pretty unusual use of language. We use words to influence other people all the time, and just because we sing them they don't somehow lose that power.

So much for love songs...

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 04:02 PM

I couldn't agree more, Frank:

Jerry

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 03:06 PM

At the inception of the Old Town School of Folk Music, we found that folk music transcended politics, religion or any of the issues. It brought people of various persuasions together in harmony and it still does.

The "Us and Them" problem isn't just folk as we know. It's a terrible mindset that eliminates sharing of information and discussion. I don't think that folk music can be used for persuasion of any kind. People believe what they want regardless of what they sing.

Today, I think the bias factor politically doesn't work at all. That goes for Right or Left. Historically, there have been protest songs of the Left that is a small part of the body of folk music. It's harder to find a Capitalist song that extols the virtues of the stock market unless it's a parody. Any song can be used as a doctrinaire interpretation of its meaning just like the Constitution or the Bible.

Labels are increasingly losing their meaning. Many Democrats today are no longer "liberal". What does it mean to be a Conservative? If you care about the environment and global warming, you are a conservative as conservationist. If you believe that bailing out large banks without regulations is foolhardy, you might be a conservative or liberal.

The labels were more sharply defined in earlier times more than they are today.

I don't know too many of those who admired the Kingston Trio who thought of them as a "liberal" group. Even Walter Progressive Party Candidate, Walter J. O'Brien of the M.T.A. was expunged in favor of a fictitious George so as to not cause controversy.

I'm "beating a dead horse" here. Folk music will always transcend any political, religious or ideological point-of- view.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:25 AM

Point of information Buttons is a friend of Cinderella especially in pantomime versions.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 07:01 AM

For most people folk music is music folks sing. It doesn't have an agenda. I don't sing Down on Penny's Farm (as my example) because I am speaking for downtrodden tenant farmers, or small farmers who are being plowed under by large corporate conglomerates. I don't march around the coffee house carrying a placard saying Mister Penny Unfair To Tenant Farmers. I wouldn't sing Bay Rum Blues to protest the increase in tax on liquor, either. The only songs I've ever sung that had an agenda are ones I wrote during the Vietnam War. I wouldn't even include the gospel I sing and write as having an agenda, as I am not evangelizing. I'm just singing what I feel and what I enjoy singing. I think that's true of most people. But not all. I've also written lines like "An honest day's work for an honest day's pay was enough for a hard-working man."

All that said, Folk music (I think) has much more often been used as a means of drawing like-minded people together to rally for improved working conditions (ever hear one used as a rallying cry for Bosses unite?)or to rebel against unjust wars or social injustice. It is a powerful tool, and has been used for positive change in this country. And is still being used for good.

I could probably do an evening of folk music and believe that I didn't sing a single "protest" song, while someone else with a different mind frame would think that most of the songs I sang were protest songs.

And good on you Kent, for your post. The one point I'd add is that songs that no longer are sung as protest songs may well have BEEN protest songs at the time they were written. Now they're more of a window to the past.

And a hell of a lot of fun to sing. Whether you're liberal or conservative.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Kent Davis
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 01:24 AM

Amos,

I agree. I don't suppose self-reliance, or hard work, or ANY virtue belongs exclusively to conservatives, or exclusively to liberals. There is a difference, though, in which virtues each group tends to emphasize.

Appreciation for diversity is, for example, a virtue not limited to liberals, yet it is a virtue that liberals especially praise. I realize that real liberals don't always possess that particular virtue, just as I realize that conservatives don't always live up to their ideal of self-reliance.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that liberals aren't self-reliant or hard-working. That would be silly, as silly as if, for example, someone were to imply that conservatives didn't care about the poor.

Kent

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasi
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 11:59 PM

Well said, Kent.

I guess the liberal folksingers see the liberal side of all those things, and perhaps the conservative do the conservative side as well. O don't by the way consider hard work and self reliance a conservative virtue--its the only way to a fully successful life. The difference is in the fruits of the hard work. The consequences of the actions taken. This is especially important when one's efforts get multiplied by financial success.


A

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Kent Davis
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:51 PM

As a socially conservative, economically libertarian, Republican, I regret the assumption that "folk = left/liberal/Democrat".

It's an odd assumption. Given that a conservative is a traditionalist, and given that folk music is traditional, it is exceedingly odd.

I certainly appreciate the work of many leftists, Pete Seeger for example, in preserving music that would otherwise have been lost, but his politics do not come from the music, nor does the music come from his politics. I appreciate everyone who, in the '60s, collected, revived, and popularized the music of an earlier time. We owe them a great debt and, without a doubt, many of them were leftists.   

Yet there is nothing INHERENTLY leftist about folk. "Barbara Allen" is not an arguement for socialized medicine, nor is "John Henry" an arguement against free trade. For every song with a "progressive" agenda, there is probably another with a socially conservative agenda. We've got "More Work in a Day" supporting traditional gender roles, "Cocaine Blues" supporting abstinence from illicit drugs, "Fair and Tender Ladies" supporting sexual abstinence, "The Young Man Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn" supporting hard work and self-reliance, "What Wondrous Love" supporting theism, and so on and on. My point is NOT that these are right-wing conservative Republican songs. They are not.

They are songs of the folk, and that is all of us.

Even us Republicans.

Kent

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 09:06 PM

Ah, some welcome relief. Praise thread drift! I have my mother's button hook. It's hard to believe that I am only one generation removed from using button hooks to button your shoes. I think it's a Democrat (or is it Democratic) button hook. You use it with your left hand.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 08:01 PM

cross-posted with pdq, above!

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:45 PM

Buttons?

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasi
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:45 PM

Red Buttons?

He caught a tree full of monkeys.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasi
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:18 PM

Damn. I was nearly trying to be funny, too ;-)

So who on earth was Buttons?

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:13 PM

And Bubbles was a chimpanzee. Monkeys have tails.

~ (biologist pedant hat on)

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:11 PM

Bubbles, that was Bubbles.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasi
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:06 PM

Isn't Buttons Michael Jackson's monkey? He's not been bothering you again, has he? That monkey...

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 06:11 PM

Buttons wouldn't bother me. I don't expect everyone to think the way I do, and buttons are a very quiet way of expressing an opinion.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 05:04 PM

Oops - that should read:

Both aspects usually require frequent reminders... hopefully, they're not unpleasant wake-up calls.

~ B in T

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 04:58 PM

Last fall (shortly before the election), astro and I went to a concert by Sara Grey and Kieron Means in L.A. They were wearing "Obama" buttons -- expressing a sentiment with which I heartily agreed. However, their program of traditional songs and commentary during the program had nothing to do with current politics (and little to do with historical politics, either, if I recall correctly).

They said that at a previous event, a presenter had asked/told them to remove their buttons. And, at some point in this concert (it was a small, close-in audience), an attendee said he was disturbed by their buttons. This was the same audience member whose opposing political views were audible in the chit chat during the break.

I felt that it was silly to feel so strongly about the buttons when the performance itself was a-political. I think (speculating here) that if I'd attended a comparable concert with performers with "McCain/Palin" buttons, I'd have shaken my head about the performers as individuals, but still enjoyed the music, and not felt any need to protest their buttons. I've got a good friend locally who I feel about that way...

But, if I knew that the performer was off the deep end politically -- the other end from me -- I might feel more strongly about whether I wanted to share my ticket money with them -- would the trade-off of some good music outweigh my personal distaste? Certainly not if I felt that their performance really was part of any political campaign...

I have no problem with political music and I'm happy to support it when I agree with it. In my experience, I don't have a problem with performers who bring up their political views onstage - but, that could have lot to do with the fact that I don't think I've run into any that I disagree with. I suppose it would be an uncomfortable situation to be in if the performer assumed I and the rest of the audience agreed when I didn't... maybe that's why I feel sort of uncomfortable in bluegrass crowds...

I don't agree with those who say there should be "no politics no how" onstage. I presented a concert where a couple left at the break because they disagreed with the performers' politics, and I remember feeling that their huffiness was out of place. I guess I feel that there's room for all sorts, and you buy your ticket and you take your chances. (I guess that whole discussion was in a Rabbi Sol post-house concert thread not long back.)

As to interactions in the community -- it's part of growing up to realize that not everyone thinks the same way you do, and that beyond that you may still have things in common that are worth sharing. Both aspects frequent reminders... hopefully, they're not unpleasant wake-up calls.

As a dance caller, a job description I'd describe as "facilitating social fun for a roomful of folks", I'm trying to be more conscious of the various aspects of diversity in my audience and to not inadvertantly make people uncomfortable from my position behind the mic. Not everyone behind a mic has the same job...

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 03:48 PM

In order to sing a song (I think) it would have to resonate well with the singer's ideals, thoughts, etc. That would include the political aspect of "socially-conscious" people. For better or worse. Sometimes the song picks the singer, a not uncommon experience for people seeking material they can present well.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 11:07 AM

And let me add this-although I can't put myself in the hearts and minds of anyone living in the late 19th century, it would seem to me that it also would hurt to see racism occur all around you and know that the White person you taught musical techniques and songs to and/or played with on stage might be doing nothing about that racism. (I'm talking about the over-all institutions of racism and not just personal racism). Of course, I'm speaking in generalities here, since it's possible that Hobert Smith did do somethings privately or publicly to attack racism.

Also, it seems to me that it would hurt to know that the person you are teaching musical techniques to, and perhaps even playing with on-stage can benefit from that racism and make it in that society while that society's racism holds you down and might even kill you or members of your family or friends.

All of this to say that I don't doubt that most Black people during the 19th century and now think in terms of Us and Them. Given racism in the USA then and now, we are forced to do so.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:55 AM

In relation to a society where racist structures and assumptions are virtually universal - which I understand to be the situation in the American South at the time someone like Hobart Smith grew up (born 1897) the expression "a known racist" is perhaps a bit unfair.

McGrath of Harlow, I accept your point. To clarify, in the context of American racism then (and now), what I meant by a "known racist" was a person who-apart from his musical interactions with African Americans- was belligerant and insulting toward them and who advocated and participated in violence toward them (such as those who did so and still do so as part of the KKK).

I use past tenses but I know from personal experience that there are still some White people who accept Black people on stage (and in the work place) but will have nothing in them off-stage and outside of the work place.

[My experiences with this occurred outside of the work place and not off-stage, since I'm not a professional performer.]

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 09:52 AM

Here is Hobart Smith playing Cripple Creek And here is Furry Lewis. Easy to see why they might have liked to play together, even aside from "economics and socio-political realities".

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 09:43 AM

In relation to a society where racist structures and assumptions are virtually universal - which I understand to be the situation in the American South at the time someone like Hobart Smith grew up (born 1897) the expression "a known racist" is perhaps a bit unfair.

"In 1911, an African-American fiddle player named Jim Spencer began lodging at the Smith house, and taught Hobart how to play the fiddle. Impressed with the African-American style, Hobart and his cousin, John Galliher, began sneaking over to the segregated side of Saltville to hear black musicians" - that's a quote from Wikipedia, which isn't the most academicallly reliable source, but if that's a distortion it would probably have been corrected."

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 02:59 AM

But Joe, as you seem to be acknowledging, one person's principles are another person's prejudices.

I share the concern over the way the BNP seems to be trying to subvert the music I love to promote its obnoxious political ideals. But if you celebrate the involvement of the Left in folk music, and for using folk to promote its political views, it's then difficult to object to others using music to promote their views, just because you disagree with them.

At the extremes, I for one find it difficult to tell the extreme Right and extreme Left apart.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 05:34 PM

Stringsinger sez: "There are those like the BNP or some factions of the bluegrass scene who use the music to further their political and ethnic prejudices."

Howard Jones sez: I'm not taking sides here, but isn't that exactly what the Left did?

Joe Offer sez: Well, no. We of the Left use music to express our political ideals.

[uncomfortable grin...]

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:09 PM

Frank, Happy Birthday!

I also look forward to reading any book you would write about your life and musings about folk (meaning "people" and not just the music people make and share).

Here is my response to the comment that you addressed to me:

I know next to nothing about either Hobart Smith or Furry Lewis. Perhaps those two musicians decided to ignore everything but the music to perform together. But I wonder in his heart of hearts if Furry Lewis could truly ignore Hobart Smith's racism-even if Smith treated him as "the exception to the rule". It's difficult for me to imagine that Lewis wasn't bothered by Smith's racism. Perhaps Lewis truly liked the music that he and Smith made together, but his decision to play with a man who was a known racist was driven by the economic and socio-political realities of that time.

I know in the past Black musicians even had to blacking up (wear black cork/paint) to perform. And I assume that it was economics and socio-political realities that drove that decision. Sometimes you do what you have to do to get over. But, I would hope that times have changed for the better since then.

In today's 24 hour media world where even what brand of beer famous people drink is heavily scrutinized, I think that if a Black person or another Person of Color teams up (as a musical act) with a known racist or a known fascist, his or her doing so would be used to aid & comfort racist or fascist positions. And I believe that including separate acts (performing groups or individual performers) who are known to be racist or fascist in a concert or other programming events such as a television show would give too much publicity to those performers and their causes. I also believe that doing supporters of known racist or fascist organizations would use the inclusion of people of their persuasian as publicity for their views and would push the view that the sponsors of that concert or programming are supportive of their racist/fascist positions.

I think that it's not just about the music anymore-if it ever was just about the music.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,stringsinger
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 11:47 AM

Azizi, you bring up an interesting point. Should we support people who carry ideas such as fascism and racism into their concerts? It's a tough call. My inclination is no but we listen to early recordings of such folks as Hobart Smith who Alan Lomax said was overtly racist but enjoyed picking guitar with (I think it was) Furry Lewis, the eminent black folk singer. I know what Bascom said and felt. We were immediately "communists" and introduced as such on his Folk Festival in Asheville. (Jack Elliott called him "Bastard Lampoon Lunchfart".) Yet, here was a great folksinger and cared about the tradition of the Appalachians.

Maybe the answer is to balance out the acts that are overtly racist with other performers with another point of view. (The Hobart Smith/Furry Lewis model).

Louis Armstrong never went back to his hometown New Orleans because it had become too racist. After he was crowned King of the Krewes, he left for good and never looked back.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,stringsinger
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 11:32 AM

Hi Jerry and Ted.

Reason I'm a guest is because I'm away from my home computer on vacation. In two days, I will be Seventy-Five years old. I look at
pictures of myself and say "who is that old fart?"

Jerry, Penny's Farm is indeed a classic. I remember Bascom telling us (Jack Elliott, Guy Carwan and I) that it was originally called
"Robertson's Farm" and they like the "nigras" around here. Yeah, sure! But we have Penny's. Thanks Pete.

I love Tony Bennett and Sinatra too, Jerry. And Penny's Farm.

I love the opening of Grapes of Wrath which is Red River Valley on the Hohner Echoharp. It is a perfect setup for the movie.
Steinbeck complained because Woody captured the story in his song
in a few seconds and it took Steinbeck so long to write it.

M Ted, I am most grateful and I now consider it an obligation to piece together my eratic life in print. Thank you for your kind
encouragement. I have been extremely fortunate to be a part of the folk music revival and scene for over Fifty years, now and to know a lot of the folks that have been influential. I recently saw Joan Baez when she was in Atlanta. Her next CD is produced by Steve Earle
who I really think is as close to Woody as I remember him in Topanga Canyon California (circa early 50's) as anyone. Woody would have loved his songs, I feel sure about that. BTW Joan's concert was lovely. She had Dirk Powell, one of the best of the younger breed of traditional country singers, players, banjo pickers, fiddlers, and is a "ragin' Cajun" with his accordian also. He is a kinda' folk genius and may become another Doc. Then she had John Doyle who is an amazing guitarist, mandolist from Ireland whose rep preceeds him in the States.

I see this as a very rich time for folk music.

My old buddy, Spanky MacFarland has just reorganized Spanky and Our Gang and is playing folk festivals throughout the country. She sounds as good as ever.

I don't get this talk about the demise of folk. It's here and it's great.

Frank Hamilton