 sj |
||
|
||
Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
DigiTrad:
A MON LIKE THEE
Related thread:
Lyr Req: A Mon Like Thee - extra verses? (30)
|
|
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:24 AM If songs are to be rejected because of the context that gave rise to them that'd be an awful lot of good songs we'd lose. In fact if "the context that gave rise to them" means "a society in which there were a lot of unexamined prejudices and which was intolerant and unjust in many ways", I doubt if there's ever been a society that would pass the gest - including our own. The circumstances of the times when a song was written are of course of interest, and can enable songs to give us an understanding of those times and those circumstances that perhaps nothing else can - but that's only half of the story, Songs can come to life again in very different circumstances, and help us to understand them also. I'm thinking of the way that a song such as "Will you go to Flanders?" takes on a new depth and meaning when it is sung in the context of looking back at the Great War. Basically Old Black Joe is a song about getting old, and that's something common to all of us. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 09 - 05:55 AM Sorry Joe, songs such as Old Black Joe have to be taken in the contexts that gave rise to them - I go along with Azizi on this one. I was brought up on 'Stay In Your Own Back Yard' (Lilac Trees), which I now believe to be a piece of patronising racism, albeit well meaning. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Aug 09 - 03:43 AM Azizi, perhaps you should consider revising your thinking on "Old Black Joe." Yes, your position is plausible, but it involves reading meaning into the song that really isn't there (or at least not very strongly). I think it's a song that helped a lot of white people realize that black and white people had feelings about old age that were very much the same, and I can't see that as anything but helpful. I think it's absolutely clear that Stephen C. Foster intended to express compassion and empathy in the song. Why not accept that compassion and empathy at face value, and not try to find something offensive about it? -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: GUEST,mg Date: 10 Aug 09 - 08:45 PM Here is a pretty version of Old Black Joe. Again, I am not saying we should sing it, but people should hear how pretty and respectful it seems to many of us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeqH7yXAwxg |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: GUEST,mg Date: 10 Aug 09 - 08:14 PM Faith of our fathers? I don't really know Protestant hymns and most people don't know the older prettier Catholic ones..and I can't think of any other than Faith of our Fathers that would be about this topic. mg |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Barbara Date: 10 Aug 09 - 08:07 PM Are you forgetting -- or ignoring -- hymns, mg? Blessings, Barbara |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: GUEST,mg Date: 10 Aug 09 - 07:26 PM Another problem, and I am not saying we should still sing the song, as it is understood that people are offended by it...but it is probably 10% of the American repertoire..that and Clementine and I've been working on the Railroad, oh Susanna..songs that almost everyone knows (and probably half by Stephen Foster)...home on the range... And I have been trying to think of other sort of end of life songs...that are commonly known in America..however it is defined..certainly North, Central and South America including Greenland, although I do not know all of the main languages of these countries that comprise America. I can't think of any. My Pappa? Is that an Italian American song? I don't know it. I can think of a few that most people don't know..Bard of Armaugh, David of the White Rock (helps if you know Welsh), Oft in the Stilly NIght...but of the commonly known respecting your elders type of song, particularly male elders..I can only think of Old Black Joe and Danny Boy..and we have eliminated one and the other one people make fun of. Well, there are probably others I can't think of. mg |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Aug 09 - 05:20 PM Songs often provide a sort of minimalist framework, to which listeners have added various additional elements to fill out the story, Nothing wrong with that, its how we make sense of a song we sing or hear. Sometimes the story that gets built up around a song can be one that come up with is one that they find disturbing or offensive, sometimes the reverse. But very often when you look at the actual words, that story isn't actually in there. Old Black Joe is a case in point. So are any other number of songs, such as Danny Boy notoriously. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: GUEST,mg Date: 10 Aug 09 - 05:15 PM http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,792374,00.html There is a Time article from 1945 that talks about his niece saying it was written for his wife's family butler. It does not say where his wife's family is from and that is an important piece of knowledge. Anyway, the reason it is such a hard song to give up singing is because it is not only so beautiful, but it is so universal and so iconic and about a portion of the population that does not get many songs written about them..older men on their way out of life. It is like people wanted us to quit singing Danny Boy..which as a woman I believe I am not supposed to sing so I don't..but think how sad it would be for all those old men who it means so much to..that they want it sung at their funerals etc. Same sort of song. Oops..every St. Patrick's day we get the message loud and clear we should not be singing Danny Boy as it is corny beyond words..so bad comparison. mg |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Phil Edwards Date: 10 Aug 09 - 04:34 PM It's a demeaning caricature of traditional Arab dress - hence 'towelhead' & 'raghead' as terms of abuse for Arabs & people with Arab roots. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Aug 09 - 04:21 PM Does "towel headed" have some special meaning that's offensive? |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 10 Aug 09 - 03:56 PM Add me to the number here who have said they appreciate, and would miss, Azizi's informed and perceptive posts to Mudcat threads. And not only as a representative black voice, but as an intersting and edifying contributor on many topics, and as a good friend. On the other hand I can understand how being "one person who publicly acknowledges her or his Black racial identity on this forum" can be wearisome after five years. I've often wondered why a forum dedicated to Folk and BLUES music hasn't attracted more Black people to participate. Suibhne O'P, in your last post you said of the people who sang the song and gave the Oy Veh response "My reaction was a personal one, and certainly not a righteous one, and God knows the perpetrators are some of the finest human beings I've ever met in my life. My point was not to out them as racists, which they most assuredly are not (nor yet are they morons)". I would think that that being so, it would have been easy enough to explain to them why you found it offensive without being confrontational. Something similar happened to me. A good friend plays in an Alt-country band that we go see regularly. They had a guy sit in with them on guitar and front them on a few of his own songs one night. When he did a song called "Towel Headed Trucker" my wife and I walked out. The next time I talked to my friend I explained why we had done so. I don't know if it did any good but the only time since then that the guy sat in, he didn't do that song. Ironically, the dude's previous song was one he wrote based on a message of tolerance professed by the Preacher character from "The Grapes of Wrath". |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: The Sandman Date: 10 Aug 09 - 03:35 PM I totally agree with Jim Carrolls post,10 aug 09,1 14 pm. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: GUEST,mg Date: 10 Aug 09 - 02:53 PM Back to Old Black Joe. I think it is one of the most respectful songs ever written. I don't sing it because I understand it upsets people and it is taboo now. I respect their wishes...but I still don't get it. It is my understanding that it is about a real person who worked in the house of a friend of his and he promised to write a song for or about this man. I do not know if this is true or false, if he was free (I hope) or a slave. It was a tribute supposedly to a particular man. I think when most of us heard the song it was with relief that someone had at least escaped the horrible work of the fields for hopefully better work in the house at least. I don't think it excuses slavery, I don't think anyone with any education would think it represents slavery in general or deludes themselves that it was a happy situation (after all a country had a civil war with huge massive loss of life and revenue to stop this). I think it helped to humanize one person and get people to change their thinking and lessen the dehumanization of people who were enslaved...and that is how slavery and other abuses are tolerated...by dehumanization..not conscious..like they say fish don't notice the water...people are born into situations and things seem normal to them that should not. Anyway, I think it is very extremely respectful song. It romanticizes what was probably a horrible life starting out in the cotton fields. But look how horrible lives were romanticized elsewhere..the life of the sailor, who had scurvey and VD and unset broken bones...or the railroad man...I've been working on the railroad..just to pass the time away...they say there is an Irishman buried under every tie. . I think it was partially a style..partially a way people had of coping..partially a way to get respect for other people who were not respected in society.... Well, I don't sing the song so don't worry..but I did listen on you tube to the Trapp family...give it a listen. If you have not heard the song, I think you should. It is quite beautiful. I would say don't sing the song because it is upsetting to people, but hear it and hear it with the intent that it was written. mg |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 09 - 01:14 PM "you ain't nothing but the Jew's child," Usually "I ain't nothing but a 'poor' Jew's child. Can't see anything wrong with this - I understand Jews have children and many of them are poor. It's when they are used as derogatory stereotypes that the problems arise - like when it is implied that they are all rich. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: GUEST,schlimmerkerl Date: 10 Aug 09 - 11:56 AM When i do "The Bitter Withy", i include the verse "but you ain't nothing but the Jew's child, born in the oxen stall." I'm "entitled", to paraphrase many Black comedians who use the n-word, but no one has complained. (otoh, i ask before doing a Republican song when in Orange territory— and vice versa) |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 09 - 11:12 AM Thanks Mike; I certainly didn't know that - though I'm not surprised "just one of a set of responses " A sort of right-arm-jerk reaction. If it wasn't for the suject matter this would probably be no more harmful than the somewhat feeble-minded 'cheek-popping' that goes on in some clubs but..... "The worst racist anecdotes I've ever heard were those told by Indian Hindus about Pakistani Moslems." Really? The worst ones I've heard were about Indians, Pakinstanis, Moslems, West Indians, Irish, Jews............................ anybody who wasn't English. I don't really think it is possible to over-react to racism in any form - it kills people. Thoughout my working life I found the UK, particularly London, an extremely racist place, albeit passively so. What upset me more than anything was the way the subject was dealt with so matter-of-factly. There was never any question that you might disagree with the speaker, it was always assumed tat you were of a like mind (or mindlessness). I find it disturbing that somebody who is able to put up for election (leader of the BNP) can not only propose the repatriation of all 'foreigners' but he can also suggest that those who enter the country illegally should be cast adrift in open boats, which to me is advocating murder, or at the very least, manslaughter. As far as I'm concerned, long live political correctness. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Jack Blandiver Date: 10 Aug 09 - 10:20 AM I'd just like to point out that in my OP I was sure to stress there was absolutely no intention of bad feeling on the part of the singer, nor yet on the part of those who raised the Oy Vey - just one of a set of responses which, if not rehearsed as such seemed as customary a part of the song as the stretching of the imaginary braces when someone sings the canon and ball line in Please to See the King (Joy, Health, love and Peace). My reaction was a personal one, and certainly not a righteous one, and God knows the perpetrators are some of the finest human beings I've ever met in my life. My point was not to out them as racists, which they most assuredly are not (nor yet are they morons) rather to draw attention to just how implicit a lot of this stuff is anyway, being so buried in our culture that at times we fail to notice it on account of the innocence of the intention - much less the tradition, in the name of which just about anything would appear to be excusable. On such matters I am, for whatever reason, especially sensitive; so perhaps my reaction was an over-reaction, but this isn't about The Enlightened vs. The Unenlightened, rather the extent to which such racism would appear to be encoded into culture as a whole. An example, when searching for a link to The King in the DT, I entered the and king into the DT search and amongst the various songs that came up there was This. I remind myself that the worst racist anecdotes I've ever heard were those told by Indian Hindus about Pakistani Moslems. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: GUEST,MtheGM Date: 10 Aug 09 - 08:53 AM Having just read Jim's post above, I think it might be relevant to copy on to this thread a letter I sent to The Times this morning. Did any of you know about this? Sir, You report on page 19 ("Police ready for clashes at BNP festival") that in previous years there have been complaints of "the playing of Third Reich martial tunes". I was astonished, googling British military marches on YouTube the other day, to discover that a few clicks of the mouse on "Related Videos" would bring me videos of "The Waffen SS March", "The Afrika Corps March", "Hitler's 'Sieg Heil'", "Viktoria Sieg Heil" ... all complete with footage of Der Führer and his acolytes; and all available free-online. I wonder how many people know this. MICHAEL GROSVENOR MYER Cambridge |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 09 - 08:32 AM I'm not Jewish either, but I'm afraid that my take on the subject of anti Semitism is a little different to that of VB. During the period I spent in Manchester in the mid 60s, many of my friends and acquaintences were working-class Jews, also very politically aware people. This was twenty years after the horrors of the Holocaust and there was still a great deal of sensitivity surrounding the subject, the rabid right by then having turned their attention to the people coming to Britain from the former colonies. In the intervening period things have altered radically and once again racism, irrespective of colour or ethnic origin, is back on the menu, thanks to our blackshirted friends. Their drive for respectibility in order to make gains via the ballot box makes it doubly necessary to be aware of the fact that they may have altered their tactics somewhat over the last ten years or so, but they haven't gone away. I am always very wary of all forms of racist expression, as harmless as it often seems; I find the folk club "oy vey" morons particularly stomach-heaving in the 'rich jew' context. But that's me! Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: The Vulgar Boatman Date: 09 Aug 09 - 08:22 PM Oh dear me... I am not Jewish, but I worked closely with a major Jewish charitable organisation for ten years, and spent many nights sitting up over a glass or three with their Rabbi and other officers putting the world to rights. Funny thing is, they had a great store of humour about Jewish stereotypes, and they weren't being defensive - they loved their heritage as much if not more than the next man, were of the generation of holocaust survivors and capable of being very serious indeed, but a number of them also came from the same roots as David Kossoff, Marty Feldman, Wolf Mankowitz and Unity Theatre, and they were some very politically aware people. If we have a fault here on the Mudcat (perish the thought), it seems to be the urge to deconstruct everything to a minute degree. Sometimes it's useful, informative and occasionally uplifting; others, with the greatest respect, it's something of a pain in the arse. Context is a hugely important concept - all sorts of things get lost forever if we don't take account of it, and I suspect this may apply to the performance of songs, including the awful, mawkish "A Mon Like Thee". Perhaps we should just accept that some part of the function of a folk club is to act as a rather dowdy and beery sort of museum. Oddly enough, the only time I ever heard my friends use the words "Oy vay", other than in exasperation, was in the context of a joke taking the p*** out of a Jewish stereotype. That said, there will probably always be instances of bigotry out there, and people who will set out to be offensive. I just hope that this isn't one such example, rather that it may be a roomful of people somewhat ignorantly shooting themselves in the foot. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Peace Date: 09 Aug 09 - 07:21 PM "Personally, I have valued and learned much from Azizi's input into this forum on this and of other subjects, and would be extremely sorry not to have the benefit of it in the future. Jim Carroll" I'm with you on that Jim (and McG of H). |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Aug 09 - 06:07 PM I think that Joe Offer is maybe closer to the mark when he wrote, up the thread, "I see it as a song of nostalgia for the days of youth", rather than for any notion of nostalgia for the days of slavery - nostalgia which, given the date of the song (1860), would have been somewhat premature. As for "Yet "Old Black Joe" implies that death was the only way that family and friends were parted from each other", that seems to me the wrong way round. Surely Joe is seeing death as the only way family and friends who have been torn apart can be re-united. Rather from the song painting slavery as bucolic and happy, the implication I hear is that Joe is specifically presented as longing for death as a way of escaping a life of slavery and loss. The "gentle voices" aren't those of happy slaves, but of his dead friends and relatives. .................... I'm wholly in agreement with what Jim Carroll wrote there - I would very much miss Azizi's contributions here, and I think the Mudcat would be poorer without them. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Azizi Date: 09 Aug 09 - 05:25 PM Jim Carroll and Barbara, thank you for your words of support. As for my posting on this forum, I just haven't had much of an interest in doing so lately. But, who knows, that might change. Best wishes, Azizi PS: Barbara, I responded to your private message. I'm glad that you took no offense to what I was trying to say for certainly no offense was meant by any of us. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Barbara Date: 09 Aug 09 - 01:32 PM I value your input, Azizi, please keep on keeping on. You helped me clarify what I didn't like about the song. It is oppressive. The picture it paints of African Americans is actually of a person, a people damaged by their circumstances. I cannot imagine a circumstance where I would sing it at a folksong gathering or song circle. However, as a song that my mother loved, it helps me to understand her and her world view, and I am not sorry that we did it at her Celebration/memorial. There it helped me accept her and see how we are different. Blessings, Barbara |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Aug 09 - 10:48 AM "But I am increasingly becoming tired of such a role and I don't intend to continue being in that role." Personally, I have valued and learned much from Azizi's input into this forum on this and of other subjects, and would be extremely sorry not to have the benefit of it in the future. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Azizi Date: 09 Aug 09 - 08:29 AM This is written in partly in response to Barbara's 07 Aug 09 - 04:15 PM post but mostly in response to McGrath of Harlow's question in his 07 Aug 09 - 06:54 PM post to this thread: "What in the world is racist about the song "Old Black Joe"?" I'm aware that some people considered and still consider Stephen Foster's "Old Black Joe" and some of his other songs to have been 'enlightened' for the 19th century. However englightened "Old Black Joe" may have been, it still expresses and reinforces the meme of happy slaves who are/were content with their lot. This meme was used (and still may be used) as a justification for the inhumane and often brutal chattel slavery system. I'm specifically referring to these lines from "Old Black Joe": Gone are the days When my heart was young and gay. Gone are my friends From the cotton fields away. -snip- and these lines: Where are the hearts Once so happy and so free -snip- It certainly seems to me that the hearts of enslaved people would have been much happier if their bodies had been free. Furthermore, Old Black Joe's longing to again see "the children so dear/That I held upon my knee" minimizes the atrocities of the chattel slavery system which routinely and casually separated friends and family (such as those children who Old Black Joe remembers holding on his knee). Once family and friends were sold apart from each other, they were unlikely to see each other again on earth. Yet "Old Black Joe" implies that death was the only way that family and friends were parted from each other. In addition,(and to 'flesh out' my first point), "Old Black Joe" dehumanizes African Americans by painting a word picture of Black slaves as bucolic, un-threatening and therefore harmless "gentle people" who are content with their lot as skaves and resigned to wait for death for any improvement of that lot. Gone to the shore Where my soul has longed to go I hear their gentle voices calling: Old Black Joe. -snip- It's not just that this portrait of Black people is simplistic and untrue. It's not only that as any people, African Americans would have had various responses and reactions to enslavement-including armed rebellions, rebellious acts while enslaved (think "Jimmy Vrack Corn's actions and his reaction to his 'master's death) and in addition to attempts to escape from slavery to the Northern states and/or to Cabada. Part of the problem with songs like this is that their justification for slavery may still be used today by some people. In addition, in the 21st century there are still people who prefer to engage in stereotypical thinking about African Americans as one homogeneous group of people. Expression of that stereotypical thinking are the use of terms such as "the "black man"; "the black woman" and "the black community. In such ways we are seen as one people instead of as individuals who may have some biological and cultural similarities and who may join together politically when it's in our best interests to do so. However, we African Americans are still multifaceted and diverse in our responses to life. That said, with all due respect to all those who view "Old Black Joe" with nostalgia, I expect that there are very few Black people who do so. ** By the way-for what it's worth- I live 5 minutes by car away from Stephen Foster's home and I understand-through reading books about Foster's life- that his regard for Black people was influenced by his Black nurse(nannie). According to at least one book on Foster that I purchased, his nurse sometimes took him with her to Black church services and probably other events which were largely attended by Black people. I also understand that as an adult Stephen Foster had some Black friends or at least some Black acquaintances. But in no way does any of that change my opinion about his songs. ** Also by the way, I thank Bruce for posting the lyrics to "Old Black Joe" on this thread because I don't have the emotional energy to read that "Old Black Joe" thread right now. I had no intentions of posting to this thread or any other Mudcat thread about race/racism. However, I felt the need to share my opinion about this song because I think it's important for at least one person who publicly acknowledges her or his Black racial identity on this forum to do so. And I gathered-from my five years this month experiences on this forum that if I didn't post to this thread, no other Black person would. But I am increasingly becoming tired of such a role and I don't intend to continue being in that role. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Aug 09 - 08:18 AM PS: "the 'Rich as any Jew' from over a hundred years ago means nothing" Maybe this should be inscribed on the gates of Belsen - or is that history too? Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Aug 09 - 08:16 AM There is a little difference between using terms like 'Turk' and 'Jew' as derogatory stereotypes and presenting Turks (or French/German/etc) and English theatrical characters as combatants, as they historically have been. Unfortunately we live in a world where these stereotypes have become weapons used by scumbags like BNP and it does no harm to consider carefully before they are used - the oy vey response seems to me to underline this; a bit of closet racism if ever I heard it. Having followed with interest the events in the north of Ireland over the last three decades I find the 'even the bible' bit a little rich. Religion, christianity included (especially even), has been the cause of enough persecution, suffering and death down the centuries to be worthy of a long hard look before exposing a child's mind to its teachings. In general, I feel censorship to be undesirable if it can possibly be avoided, but we have to make room for the fact that racial stereotypes are designed to be hurtful, discriminatory and, unchecked, can be lethal in certain circumstances. It's easy to say they do no harm if they don't effect you or yours. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Leadfingers Date: 09 Aug 09 - 07:32 AM Personally , I think there is FAR too much concern as to what 'Other People' will think of 'You' from a P C or Racialist , or even Chauvenist outlook when singing 'Old' songs ! As far as I am concerned , the 'Rich as any Jew' from over a hundred years ago means nothing , though I would NOT be happy with the Oy Vey MODERN addition . |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Acorn4 Date: 09 Aug 09 - 07:28 AM An intereresting case in point is the opening chorus of the musical "Showboat". This contains the line "N*****s all work on the Mississippi", which was apparently included by Oscar Hammerstein because at the time it was a slightly tongue in cheek self deprecating term used by the black community itself. There was never any suggestion of OH being a racist. This subsequently was altered to:- "Darkies work... then to "Coloured folks work... then to "We all work..... Until finally no one at all worked on the Mississipi and the opening chorus was omitted completely. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Jack Blandiver Date: 09 Aug 09 - 06:16 AM Now I fear for our Warburton Souling Players and others who perform the same play. It is medieval in origin and by tradition the Turk is slain by St. George. How are the do-gooders going to tackle that? Well, this particular do-gooder will point out that it is neither medieval or traditional, rather the conceit (and therefore the responsibility) of the particular community who have chosen to REVIVE said Souling Play and in the context of REVIVAL they must be aware that the only historical & folkloric context that really matters is the one in which the play is performed. Anything else is a fake-loric fantasy. I love Mummers Plays as much as I do Folk Song and Morris, but would strongly advise latter day REVIVALISTS to cut the crap, be it back-faced Border Morris (or even the traditional the Britannia dancers) or the rancid racial stereo-tying in Mummer's Plays, or else overt racism in folk songs. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: GUEST Date: 09 Aug 09 - 06:02 AM What do you mean "Even the bible"? Why should that be exempt? If a context can be given that the singer and audience are likely to understand there is a case for including references that in this day and age we have learned to understand as damaging. I suppose a good rule of thumb is: would you sing a song including racial misrepresentation (never mind "stereotype") to an audience with a number of representatives of that ethnic group sitting among your audience?
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: GUEST,HelenJ Date: 09 Aug 09 - 05:22 AM Things are reaching a ridiculous pitch. Now I fear for our Warburton Souling Players and others who perform the same play. It is medieval in origin and by tradition the Turk is slain by St. George. How are the do-gooders going to tackle that? Things are being blown out of proportion, i.e. foxhunting etc.,is historical fact whether we like it or not. I know of someone who was forbidden to teach schoolchildren The Boar's Head carol in case of insult to certain groups. I sing it every Yuletide; so far nobody has objected. Will the next thing on the agenda be the scrutiny of history books or even the Bible for fear of offence? I give up! |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Acorn4 Date: 09 Aug 09 - 03:52 AM This gives quite a good resume of the historical aspect of this subject:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Expulsion |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Dave Hanson Date: 09 Aug 09 - 03:50 AM People from Hartlepool are still called monkeyhangers but it's STILL a joke, they elected a monkey called Hangus as Lord Mayor a few years ago. Dave H |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Aug 09 - 03:25 AM "How about the song about the Monkey washed up on the beach and taken for a Frenchman?" But that was true, wasn't it?? (joke) It was usually used to describe the 'unworldliness' of people from Hartlepool. It dates back at least as far as the Napoleonic Wars and was still being told as fact during WW2. My father was a building worker and he said that fights were often caused among the men (deliberately) by asking somebody from Harltepool, "Are you the man who hung the man who hung the monkey?" Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Barbara Date: 09 Aug 09 - 01:29 AM Oops, sorry about the Foster reference. I knew that. The problem with "rich as ony Jew' as I see it is that "Jew" has been (and still is) used as a cultural stereotype to describe someone who is too interested in making money -- my grandmother used it in that sense -- and I was mortally embarrassed by her. In her vocabulary it meant be a person who showed an unseemly interest in money. Thing is, someplace back there the Church made it illegal for Christians to -- what was it? charge interest in lending money? handle money transactions? and by default the job fell to the non-Christians. Who then got maligned for doing it. It's way past time we got over it. Blessings. Barbara |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Peace Date: 09 Aug 09 - 12:47 AM "Foster was born in Lawrenceville, now part of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania." From the www. No offense. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: GUEST,Mike B. Date: 09 Aug 09 - 12:44 AM One correction - the 19th century songwriter Stephen Foster was referred to as a white southerner in an earlier post but he was actually from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Gurney Date: 08 Aug 09 - 09:46 PM Wealth is neither a character fault nor a reprehensible situation, so far as I've ever been aware. Since many Jews have been, and are, rich, usually due to their own efforts, I'd be more interested to hear THEIR reactions to that line than those of people raised to politically-correct educational standards. Any offers? Whilst we are exploring racism; in the present discussion should we not also decry all the anti-English songs (let alone lines!) that abound in our genre. Fair's fair, if a Jew can't be called rich, what do we make of 'Brittania's Huns,with their long-range guns...' Economic, eh, to decry both the English, the Germans, and advancing technology so succinctly. ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Neil D Date: 08 Aug 09 - 09:26 PM Robomatic, how about fickle life-giver. Not quite the same but it might work. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Emma B Date: 08 Aug 09 - 08:24 PM I must confess it's not the words of an old song written in a different time that I find offensive - I have been known to sing along with whale and fox hunting songs from a different era, not to mention a little bit of Francophobia as above :( It's the description of a 'modern' audience joining in with a racial sterotype 'joke' that has absolutely no origin in the original lyrics, that concerns me most. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: robomatic Date: 08 Aug 09 - 08:16 PM Q: LOL How about the song about the Monkey washed up on the beach and taken for a Frenchman? "Come and see the Frenchy what's landed on th' beach- 'E's got long arms, a great long tail and 'e's covered down in hair- We think that he's a spy so we'll 'ang 'im in the square!" |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Aug 09 - 07:17 PM Well, you could cut Indian Giver in half and call it a Dutch Treat. "In these days" Yes, throw out Rudyard Kipling as well. Oh, wring dem hands. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: harpmolly Date: 08 Aug 09 - 07:07 PM Here's a bit of a poser, which may have been discussed before: One of my favorite songs is Bill Watkins'/Andy M. Stewart's "The Errant Apprentice". It has the whole bit about the Turk, which some MIGHT interpret as racist (though hilariously written..."Sure bravery's no virtue when some heathen's trying to hurt you/And all noble thoughts desert you when you see his curly knife..."). My personal interpretation is that the Turk is not actually being portrayed unsympathetically; he's basically an innocent bystander who gets his head bashed by the protagonist, who is quite possibly the best example of an "unreliable narrator" I've ever seen. Throughout the song, the narrator is shown to be, well, a complete idiot. ;) So we're seeing the Turk through his eyes, and like blind lovers everywhere, he is blaming the Turk for his supposed true-love's infidelity. (Typical). Anyway, I'm disposed to interpret the song in that light, and don't find it offensive at all. But I'm afraid to perform it these days, as you can't always expect audiences to see through that many layers of subtlety. Sigh. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Joe Nicholson Date: 08 Aug 09 - 06:38 PM Is it a coincidence that most somgs about tailers put them down as thieves, scalywags or fools and that tailering was principaly a jewish trade in the nieteenth and early twentieth century |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: LITTLE RIVER (Moore/Bok) From: robomatic Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:51 PM I appreciate the sentiments that created this thread. I'm trying to imagine how I'd react if I happened by the performance and just ran into it unprepared. I expect I'd feel blindsided and unhappy. I think I'd get over it because England has a lot of historic anti-semitism in the language and a lot of attitudes, among many many such things across a range of ethnicities. I'd get over it. The knowledge I now have that the very folks singing it have mixed feelings only broadens my appreciations of the depth and complexity of the island dwellers. After all, there are some anti-semitic references in Shakespeare, not to mention an entire play, and I accept that. If I were directing or acting in 'em, I would not change 'em. I have a set of lyrics I'd like to fix. One of my old favorites was a poem set to music and sung on a Gordon Bok album: Little River Words by Ruth Moore Tune by Gordon Bok Little River, lighted whistle, cry no more Sleepy sound from the breakers calling me back to shore Whistle it soft to the silver river Whistle loud to the drumming sea Whistle it low to the moon and the morning Not to me, never to me For I'm swinging high in another country, swinging low Playing it easy, the dolphins follow me where I go Whistle it loud to the flood tide making Whistle it soft to the wheeling sun Whistle it wild to my girl's heart breaking She'll remember, she was the one Spring comes warm to Little River, storm comes black I was headed home when the Indian Giver took me back Whistle it high to the grey-beard breakers Where the secret over the great shoals ran Whistle the world that was in my pocket When I had pockets, when I was a man I'd love to have a substitute that scanned for "Indian Giver" and conveyed the same meaning but I haven't found it yet. |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Snuffy Date: 08 Aug 09 - 04:39 PM In England I've always (since the 1950s) known the song as "Poor Old Joe" rather than "Old Black Joe" |
|
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee From: Peace Date: 07 Aug 09 - 11:34 PM Done. |
| Share Thread: |