BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign

Subject: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 01:52 PM

memo to the secret service:

As a political scientist my father would study the entire spectrum from the John Birchers and KKK to the IWW and Eugene Debbs. With knowledge of the extremes a middle ground could be seen more clearly.

I follow the right wing shows as closely as the Oberman and Maddow shows. What I have found stirring up people, that no one else is willing to admit is the daily visual equating Hitler with Obama on the Glen Beck show. Beck is a nebbish equivalent to Rush Limbaugh who preys on viewer's sympathy with his many crying jags regarding his children or mother etc.

As a hypnotist and quasi expert on propaganda I sought to quantify what the Glen Beck show is doing;

In a 30 day span the Glen Beck show has shown photos or film clips of Hitler while talking about Obama or Obama's policies a total of 207 times. He shows pictures or film clips of Stalin 62 times while speaking of Obama and Karl Marx 21 times. Recording these shows and counting the times they flash back and forth to Hitler pictures and guests discussing the similarity of Hitler and Obama is not an exact science but you get the picture. People watch and walk away with visual and emotional ties of Obama and Hitler.

Before they do this Beck reads a one or two sentence qualifier that claims they are not equating Obama with Hitler but rather comparing the times we live in to certain historical facts.

Meanwhile the talk jocks on Clear Channel AM radio shows are all in march step saying that we are living under a tyranny akin to Hitler's 3rd Reich.

The White House spokesman Gibbs will not mention Glen Beck for fear that he will elevate Glen Beck's form of propaganda to a higher level.
This is a mistake. John Kerry made this mistake when he did not immediately take on the Swift Boat smear campaign to the point that people now believe that Bush was a war hero and Kerry was a liar and disgraced soldier to this day.

Yes we are in a battle for the hearts and minds of the unwashed public, morons, bigots, embiciles and clever but misinformed citizens.

So far I have only seen Rachel Maddow expose the creators of the artificial (not grass roots) organizers of the tea baggers, anti health care and Hitler Obama equators as a lobbying group associated with Dick Army called 'Freedom Works".
Other talking heads for Pharma are at least transparent in thiewr lie campaign regarding US Death Boards and the like.


With people showing up at town hall meetings dressed like Hitler and people toting guns claiming that Obama has taken their country like a tyrant and is fashioning a new Russia, a new wave of violence is inevitable. US private militias are growing at twice the rate than they did in the 1990's.

An armed insurrection will create a Federal response that will justify more violence in the eyes of the followers of the Hitler=Obama propaganda.

I have said that no lie can survive the light of day and truth even if it takes generations, however a vicious rumor is immortal in the short run.

The vicious rumor must be taken on separate from all other issues and expose the people who stand to gain from the lies and violence.

Some of the people who own 'Freedom Works own private health insurance companies as well as the Cancer Treatment Center chains across America. They know full well how effective the most outrageous lies and propaganda can fire up otherwise innocent people to fight or commit violence in the name of defeating tyranny.

These easily impressionable people need to know why these lies are bought and sold for as little as $100,000 to the lobbyists at Freedom Works and exactly who benefits.

The truth campaign is expensive but it can be done in a similar fashion that sends the message in both an emotional and visual manner. Yes hypnotizing people to the truth is an honorable endeavor when countering the propaganda of a Beck, Limbaugh, Levin, Savage and others.

I believe that it is the moral duty of the fifth column but in the midst of their laziness even the secret service funds should be used.
Ignore the hideous lie at everyone's peril.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 01:56 PM

Are you being "tongue in cheek," Donuel, or are you serious?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 02:05 PM

I man worth his salt needs to take on the liars for the good of his country Doug.   You can be a victim of propoganda or a learned citizen working for the good of his country.
In my view, continuing to equate Hitler with Obama is a dangerous road to go down. It can and will destroy innocent lives.

You seem to have your own view which, as you have said, is most often for fun. I assure this post is not one of those.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 02:10 PM

I can only agree with you, Donuel. When a weirdo like Beck (or A Coulter, or Limbaugh) can get a nationwide (arguable wordwide) audience, a certain percentage of whom actually take him seriously (I guess), that is a weirdo to watch out for.

Hi Doug. Yup, it's serious. Sorta like Timothy McVeigh. He was weird and serious.

Good luck my American friends. Hope the Secret Service is working overtime.
W-O

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 02:46 PM

"Hope the Secret Service is working overtime."

             They are! The question is, who are they working for?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:18 PM

Donuel is on the right track.... I have been WAY too busy to type up the tangled web of right-wing scare tactics - funded by drug companies and insurance mega-companies. Rachael Maddow has indeed been exposing the details all the last week, and you...(ALL of you, especially conservatives)... would do well to go to her archived programs and listen to the clear, documented explanations of where these ersatz 'grass roots' protesters got their scripts!

The big moneyed groups opposing Health Care reform are scared... ANY change means less money for them, and they are pulling out all the stops to scare anti-abortion groups, the elderly, and various special interests with the idea that ANYTHING Obama does is tainted with *gasp* "SOCIALIST" ideas and will result in loss of freedom, euthanasia, ...and every other boogey-man scenario they can think of!

This is REAL... this campaign is being run, funded and scripted by pros! This is what they DO! They will lie, mislead, insinuate and otherwise misinform....partly out of a knee-jerk response to anything Obama does, but mostly for $$$$$$...to retain and perpetuate their de-regulated Heaven on Earth that Reagan and Bush & Co, gifted them with. When Billions of $$$ are at stake, they will say anything

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:22 PM

If there is indeed an attempt to engineer a totalitarian takeover in the USA (and it wouldn't surprise me much if that were the case...I think the country's been slowly moving that way for decades), then I'd be quite concerned as to just who the Secret Service would back in regards to that. Seems to me that they are the perfect people to assist in managing such a takeover.

The provoking of deep divisions and confrontations in a society provides a good excuse for increased security and surveillance measures and an abrogation of civil rights. The aggravation of the deep divisions and hatreds between the Left and the Right would also be quite helpful.

"divide and conquer"

Whether Obama is an active participant in that endeavour, a victim of it, or merely a helpless bystander at this point...that part I don't know, and I wouldn't venture any opinion on it for the time being.....but....I don't think I'd want to be in his shoes. It's a thankless and dangerous job being the number 1 figurehead in American domestic politics.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:26 PM

Started with Rush Limbaugh, didn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:48 PM

"...and I wouldn't venture any opinion on it for the time being....."

Then why even suggest stuff like the possibility he might be "in on it?"

I, personally, think that the actual number of folks trying to achieve such totalitarian ideas may be quite exaggerated....but modern technology and 153 channels on TV and 27 million internet sites & blogs allows ALL of them to get 'in your face'. When a meeting is disrupted by 7-8 or 70-80 idiots following a script, remember...that may be MOST of the idiots in a community of thousands or millions! Making lots of noise and carrying signs can make it seem like a huge movement when CNN films it day after day.....and it encourages all the idiots who did NOT turn out that day.

No matter what the total is, it's too many...but I'd love to see what 2-3 weeks of being ignored would do to their habits.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:51 PM

". . . but I'd love to see what 2-3 weeks of being ignored would do to their habits."

Are you saying that this crud wasn't started by Limbaugh or Coulter? That it was started by nuns?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:57 PM

nuns ARE AGAINST healthcare? wAITAMINNIT!!!This is not making sense!! Why would nuns be against health care? 'Splain youself, Peace man!!! :D



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:02 PM

They have habits. One would think they'd be in favour. Bill D said, and I quote: "I, personally, think that the actual number of folks trying to . . . 'get in your face' . . . would do to their habits."

I think it's preety clear from here, Amos. Bill D is definitely saying it was nuns.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:05 PM

Nuns.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:06 PM

oOOO!! tHEM'S BAD HABITS INDEED, INNIT?


(Effin capslock keys!!!)



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:08 PM

nEVER NOTICED A PROBLEM WITH THE CAPSLOCK KEY mYSELF. bACK TO bILL'S ALLEGATIONS . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:09 PM

Glenn Beck completely loses his cool, reveals his inner nature....



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:10 PM

bILL BETTER BE RIGHT OR HE'S IN SOME DEEEEEP DOODOO. damned capslock!

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:06 PM

I'm suggesting nothing, Bill. I have no idea yet whether or not Obama is in cahoots with the same old New World Order dudes who've been running the USA for a few decades now.

I like him personally. I don't know if he's in their pocket or not. I have no opinion about it as yet.

One thing, though. If he's not in on it, I think they'll find a way to destroy his presidency...one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:29 PM

The link from Amos with the outburst by Glen Beck reminds me of the outburst by Lee J Cobb in the movie '12 Angry Men' with Glen Fonda.

Imagine if we could put the entire country in a room to argue the issue of who is guilty and who is innocent of killing our country's prosperity. Well we can't but we could write a movie like 12 angry men to expose who creates and promotes the most ruinous lies for their own pithy profit.

If the investment banks had not lied and stolen well over 2 trillion dollars (with many confederates like rating companies) we would have health care for 10 years.

In the background I can hear Glen Beck on TV saying the word Nazis over and over.

A pathetic figure may begin to believe their own BS and that is when they truely become dangerous. At present Beck is a jealos wannabe of Rush but with the power of video overlays and 20 hours a month of programing with flow charts showing the similarities of Hitler and Obama he has much more power than Rush.

It is no coincidence that people are putting swastikas on c. Congressmen's offices and showing up at town hall meetings dressed as Hitler or bearing guns. THis behavior did not just emerge from a vaccum. It is being derived through Glen Beck and sponsored by lobbying groups such as 'Freedom Works'.

Dick Morris speaks of ways to "terrorize your Congressmen".
Dick Army has done things while in office that deserved censure at the minimum and treason at the max, but Glen Beck is the one who people without a full spectral point of view see, and what they see is Obama compared to Czars, socialists and Hitler on a daily basis.

An effective screenplay or a unique press conference is all I can think of as a counter to Glen Beck's call to rise up, be a patriot and slay the tyrant/nazi.

Why he is saying it and for whom is only effective for people who respect reason and rationality. The emotional people can only be reached with emotion and lots of it. Fear is a very difficult emotion to overcome. Cowards are most susceptable to fear

and note that it is the pwerless coward who is most often the nut that lashes out.

These are the ones we need to reach in the most emotional and respectful way. If I were a genius like some of you I might have the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:34 PM

One of those town hall meetings is here in town on Friday...I'll be going....I just hope Congressman Wu doesn't spend the time talking about Star Trek....

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:33 PM

"...I have no idea yet whether or not Obama is in cahoots ...etc"

I do. He ain't. It is not clever to even hint at the possibility.

(and *I* have no idea if Little Hawk is enamored of those nuns being posted....and since I don't, I won't even mention the idea....)

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 09:30 PM

Enamoured of "these nuns"? Huh??? Say what? Naw...I prefer Winona Ryder.

But since I don't actually know whether or not Obama is in cahoots with certain western imperial powers that be, Bill, (those tied in with the major energy companies, for instance)...and you don't know either...I am venturing no final opinion of my own on the matter.

But you are protected by your faith...and your faith is apparently unshakable. Therefore you can feel safe to freely make categorical statements about it, even though you don't know.

I'm going to wait and see what he does in the next 3 and 1/4 years, and I'll go by that. I bet he dances to the tune of the engery companies just like the last 8 presidents did. If so, he'll continue waging (directly or by proxy) energy-based wars in the Middle East and Eurasia, and he'll pretend it's all about promoting democracy, protecting the USA from foreign attack, and stopping Al Quaeda. And most Americans will believe him.

And after him? Probably more of the same from whoever follows.

But get this: I like Mr Obama in a personal sense. I like his style. I like his general attitude. I don't like his inclinations to pursue a war in Afghanistan, however, because I know what's really driving it: the desire to move natural gas and oil from the Caspian region through pipelines down through Afghanistan into Pakistan and India and thence to the Indian Ocean. Also the desire to encircle Iran and eventually achieve regime change there and then convert Iran into a compliant political satellite state and get their energy resources too. That is what the New Great Game in that region is really about. It's about securing strategic territory and controlling vital energy reserves in the Middle East and central Asia, and it's a deadly serious game between the world's 3 major powers...the USA, Russia, and China. The Afghans are just pawns in that power game.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 10:50 PM

"I don't like his inclinations to pursue a war in Afghanistan, however, because I know what's really driving it: the desire to move natural gas and oil from the Caspian region through pipelines down through Afghanistan into Pakistan and India and thence to the Indian Ocean." etc...etc...


amazing! Do you do mindreading from a distance? Or do you have a mole in the White House? For someone who 'has no opinion' on some arcane matters, you sure find it easy to be assured of his secret policy on gas & oil.

There is a palpable negativity in some of those statements that overshadows ALL the "I like his style" comments.

I also would 'bet' that Obama will NOT "dance to the tune of the energy companies".

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 11:17 PM

Little Hawk, your saying that you don't know whether Obama is "in cahoots", etc, is far beneath someone of your capabilities, imo. How silly, how inane, of you to imply something of which you have no knowledge- no matter what fantasies are broiling in your reading or in your own grey matter.

There are lots of things I don't know- heck, there are lots of things I don't know about you. I don't know enough about you to even conjecture as to whether you have a secret compartment below your home where you hatch nefarious plots which will become plain all too soon. I don't know that, so far be it from me to even imply such a thing.

Far too frequently you treat serious issues like a game, in my opinion.

Keep in mind that my opinion is nothing personal - so you shouldn't take umbrage - but I do know that is what you are doing. Because it is what people like you do. (See how silly that sounds?)

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 11:21 PM

Well, I could give you some links to some interesting articles I've read in Canada's press about the history and purposes of USA policy in Afghanistan, but I doubt they'd convince you of anything, Bill. ;-) No, I don't do mindreading, I just read the political articles in our press, that's all. I mostly read the Toronto Star and the Globe and Mail, which are both highly respected mainstream Canadian newspapers with some very good columnists (not all of whom agree by any means...). It's not Mr Obama himself I have a negative opinion of, it's the overall foreign policy objectives of the American empire, and he's the guy who has the bad luck to be officially leading it at the moment.

The main reason the oil and gas policy is "secret" (meaning it doesn't get discussed much in your mass media) is because your American empire, like all empires, would prefer its own people to believe that it's acting out of idealism...not out of sheer pragmatic self-interest. It would like them to believe it's helping other nations, not robbing them.

In this respect it's like all aggressive empires. They all tell their people misleading fairy tales in order to keep them in support of imperial policy, and imperial policy always involves fighting wars of choice and making incursions on other people's land to secure their strategic resources and to achieve a better strategic position vis a vis competing empires.

The main competing empires facing the USA/UK right now are the Russians and the Chinese. The Russians and the Chinese play similar imperial games, of course, and they also feed their people with misleading fairy tales to get them onside in support of national imperial policy. This sort of thing has been going on for the past 4,000 years if not longer, but the main players keep changing as the centuries go by.

You happen to be living in the present "Rome" and Obama is the new emperor. When he's done, another emperor will replace him, but the real player is the Empire itself. I happen to be living in one of the present "Rome's" client states, an unofficial but actual part of the Empire...a colony in all but name. As such, we have a rather different view of the situation, but our government usually complies pretty closely with your government's imperial policy, because it cannot afford not to...there would be very severe financial measures taken against us if we didn't do pretty much as we are told to.

Our press, however, is not nearly as taken in by the official line as yours is vis a vis your foreign policy. As for our politicians? Well, they do what the big financial players (who are American) tell them to. ;-) They cooperate. And that's why we still have troops fighting and dying in Afghanistan. A majority of our public wants them out.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 11:25 PM

Let me tweek that a bit. Canada originally sent about 2000 troops to Afghanistan at about the same time we refused to be a memebr of the "Coalition of the Willing" which if I recall correctly was four countries: USA, UK, Bulgaria and Spain. In my opinion, it was a tradeoff which freed up 2000 US troops for work in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 11:40 PM

Yes, I think that's right, Peace. Public opinion was such in Canada that the government did not think it wise to get involved in Bush's invasion of Iraq, so a deal was struck, as you say, and we sent some troops to Afghanistan instead.

Ebbie - You'll recall that Dennis Kucinich's position on the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq was markedly different from Obama's. I'm in agreement with Kucinich...both then and now. He did not take the imperial line. I'm also in agreement with Ron Paul's general position on foreign wars and USA imperial policy (though I certainly don't agree with him on everything he says, not by any means).

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 11:48 PM

As they say, Little Hawk, 'politics is the art of the possible'. I fully believe that a great many - a majority of them, probably - presidents and leaders of all sorts discover that things are far more complicated than they seemed from a distance. Kucinich and Paul would have found it the same, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:31 AM

Good News, I learned tonight that 75,000 signatures were sent to the sponsors of the Glen Beck Show and 8 sponsors have removed their advertising dollars from his show. This is thanks to a website called Color of choice, a anti racism advocate site.

Bill D the Caspian oil reserves were grossly over estimated and may now not make a pipeline project viable.
If there will ever be a pipeline the fight will be between Russia, Pakistan and the Taliban over the money...so good luck with that,

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:25 AM

Quite aside from the oil, Donuel, Turkmenistan (directly north of Aghanistan and bordering on the Caspian Sea) is atop the world's 3rd largest reserves of natural gas. That's probably more important than the oil, and it also requires a pipeline, same as the oil does.

The world's largest reserves of natural gas are under Russia, and the second largest reserves are under Iran. Then there's Turkmenistan at number 3. Very vital stuff for both the Americans and Russians to have their eyes on.

I read that stuff today in a darned good article in the (Toronto) Globe and Mail.

Ebbie - Yes, you may be quite right in what you say in your last post about politics being the art of the possible. Besides, anyone who tried to do what Kucinich wanted to if he was elected president would not simply survive his first term in office, in my opinion...assuming he ever got nominated and elected in the first place...which he wouldn't. So, yes, politics IS the art of the possible...in more ways than one. That's why I expect Obama to basically continue on the same general imperial course as his predessors have...but with a somewhat different overall style. He's far more articulate and reasonable than most of them. I fear that this may end up with Americans saddling him with the label of "wimp", as they did with Jimmy Carter.

It's what he would genuinely wish to do if he could do it that really intrigues me. We may never find out what that might have been, but it's hard to say at this point. He will be constrained, as you say, by "the art of the possible".

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: kendall
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:43 AM

It's pretty bad when you see little children holding up signs with lies in bold red print.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 11:44 AM

Well, the rationale that the Taliban served as the hatching oven for the assaults of September 11 -- a major historical trauma and slap in the face -- at leasts means that pursuing a military policy to eliminate the breeding ground makes some sense, not as a way to build empires but as a means to eliminate proven dangers.

Little Hawk, I think your enthusiasm for making the United States into a member of the set of "all aggressive empires"--placing it among the ranks of Alexander, Attila, the 18-19th C. British Army, the Han and gawd knows what Ethiopian princes and Indian moghuls of yore -- is simplistic and undiscriminating, as is your innuendo about unidentified cahoots in the halls of power. Your are far too intelligent to trade in such paranoid generalizations without due diligence.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 11:45 AM

One last off-topic thought: Little Hawk, you say, "I fear that this may end up with Americans saddling him with the label of "wimp", as they did with Jimmy Carter."

How do you come up with that when you first posit that Obama is warring in Afghanistan just like his predecessor?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 11:53 AM

Yeah, the "wimp" label is something that the right wing is trying to market to their followers and it has picked up a little steam... I've read "Letters to the Editor" here in Page County, Va. from folks who must be hearing it somewhere 'cause they are parroting it along wiht the rest of the rightie propagand...

As for Glen Beck losing advertizers??? Hey, that's a good thing... There was a time when folks were blasting away at Dick Frost and taking him off the air for allowing anti-war folks to appear on his show... I say, it's about time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:58 PM

Donuel,

This is indicative of the sad dumbing down that is so prevalent. Ignorance, and an inability to derive thought-out conclusions to serious life questions, is running rampant in the land.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 01:27 PM

The reason, Ebbie, that I fear many Americans may tag Obama as a "wimp" is because he is inclined to talk things over calmly, rationally, and reasonably with other people rather than resorting to gross and manipulative negative emotional tactics and confrontation like most politicians do. He is inclined to seek common ground rather than engage in attack-dog tactics. Such people are often called "wimps" by those who have no patience or time for an intelligent approach to life.

I was defending him, in other words, but you seem to have missed it.

Amos - The British Empire is almost the perfect parallel to the present American Empire...only that the outer formalities have changed. You can't have official colonies any longer. It's not politically acceptable to do that now. So what you do now is you have unofficial colonies (client states that are apparently self-ruling in a political sense, but who do exactly what you want them to anyway). This is achieved mainly through financial pressure, but the Marines, Navy, and Air Force are there to use brute force to achieve it when brute force is required. The new American Empire basically took over FROM the British Empire when the Brits got effectively bankrupted by the two world wars and lost their overseas colonial empire. The new American Empire has supplanted the British, but the British are their very willing junior partner and helper now, riding on the American coattails, as it were, and thus still benefiting to a considerable extent.

It's as if England were the Greeks...once the great empire of their world...and then America (the Romans) came in to replace them, but there are very strong cultural ties between the two. The one is culturally speaking an extension of the other...with some clear differences, but with much in common as well.

Your denial of your nation's aggressive imperial role in the world is a denial that will not be found in populations outside of the USA, because they can see perfectly well the imperial course that America has been set on ever since the Spanish-American War, if not sooner than that, but it has greatly accelerated since the end of WWII.

It's blatantly obvious to populations in Canada, Latin America, Europe, Asia, Africa, everywhere. It's a fact of life.

And we all must live with it. Canadians live in the shadow of the Empire, and they know it. So does the whole rest of the world, but the Russians and Chinese have their own ambitious ideas about empire too. One day the Indians will as well. This could very well lead to a major war between competing empires at some point. I hope it doesn't, but it could. It always has in the past.

Note: I'm not talking about Glenn Beck so far simply because I'm finding other things to talk about here that interest me a lot more than Glenn Beck does.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:03 PM

I think, sir, you are falling into an over-simplistic trap, confusing dominance with imperialistic aggression, and wrapping a complex, multi-faceted nation into a single cartoon of itself to fuel your affection for bombast.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:26 PM

The problem with a covert American Empire, by comparison with an overt British one, is that people could, and did, demand and get independence from the British one. How do you do that from something which apparently does not exist. Look at Diego Garcia, for an example. The British did base theirs on the Romans, with regard to the use of locals in government. Up to a point, only. And stuff is now coming out which shows nastier sides to the history. South America may well have opinions about the USA's interference in their democratic elections, in their turn.

Nice to be compared to the Greeks. I have thought that the founding documents of the States are pretty good compared with our constitution.. wherever it may be. But then part of my family came from Lewes, and I was brought up to think Tom Paine a Good Thing. I wonder what he would think of his baby.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:31 PM

My affection for bombast, sir? You wound me! Indeed, for you, of all people, to accuse mois of bombast is as unjust and laden with irony as it would be for Richard Nixon to have accused me of shifty-eyed mendacity. ;-)

Your nation has been invading people in an aggressive fashion ever since it sprang from the loins of the British Empire in the late 1770s. It has attacked all the Indian tribes it could physically reach, it has attacked Canada and Mexico, it has invaded numerous Latin American nations and toppled their governments through CIA-arranged coups, it has massacred hundreds of thousands of Filipinos after taking those islands from Spain in 1898...it has probably invaded more countries in the last 200 years than any other single nation on Earth. That's what I call an aggressive empire.

You are quite right, though, that the USA is a complex and multi-faceted nation with many good qualities as well. I never said it wasn't, but I am not discussing every single aspect of the USA at the moment, I'm simply discussing its imperial policy. To say a nation is imperialist is not to say that it is ONLY imperialist.

The Romans, after all, were imperialists too...but they were also a brilliant nation which gave many great gifts to the world. I would say that about the USA as well, and I would also say it about the Russians and the Chinese. Great empires are built by great nations.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:53 PM

LH:

You really must learn to be more thoughtful if you are going to address important issues.

Here's an example of what I mean:

"America means well: on this point the vast majority of Americans will permit no dissent. We differ from all other great powers in history. Our leaders differ as well. To those who formulate U.S. policy, ideals really do matter. As President Obama insisted in his Cairo speech, anyone depicting the United States as a "self-interested empire" is way off base.

When U.S. policy goes awry, therefore, the culprit might be bad luck, bad planning, or bad tactics, but American motives lie beyond reproach. Thus, the reassuring take on the Iraq War, now emerging as the conventional wisdom, is that—however mismanaged the war may have been early on—the "surge" engineered by General David Petraeus has redeemed the enterprise: a conclusion doubly welcome in that it obviates any need to revisit questions about the war's purpose and justification, while meshing nicely with the Obama administration's inclination simply to have done with Iraq and move on."

The complete essay, entitled Best Intentions is long, reflective and insightful.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: olddude
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:03 PM

What absolutely amazes me is the good people that I have known and worked with that are taken in with this shit ... It is like a mass brain melt .. I kept getting email after email after email from a guy that was once a friend about the obama nazi yada yada. I finally had to tell him to move on that it was not welcome that I do not tolerate hate and blocked his email address. It is down right scary that even people I know that are highly educated believe the shit from the Rush's of this world or the Rush wannabees ...

amazing

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:09 PM

Its not amazing, its frightening. If someone wants to make Hitler analogies, both Limbaugh, Beck & Coulter are much batter analogs analogs in that with their lies & propaganda they are stirring up fanatical, unreasoning hate for political purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:19 PM

Americans mean well, Amos, no doubt about it. When I say "Americans", I mean most of the people in the USA mean well. Most Britons meant well too, even at the height of Britain's imperial expansions. Most Frenchmen meant well when they served Napoleon. Most Japanese meant well when they served their country in WWII. I think Obama means well. I think Jimmy Carter meant well. Bush probably meant well too.

However, empires do not obey the dictate of the millions of people who mean well. They obey the dictate of major financial interests run by a few men. This is the case in all great powers.

Now, the men who are in charge of those major financial interests ALSO mean well...mainly from their own specifically limited perspective. That is, they are running their business interests in order to achieve what they see as a good result. A good result means making the most money possible. Making the most money possible is achieved by securing control over various lands and resources...and those lands and resources are often found in other nations.

Figure it out from there.

I am not suggesting that your country is run by people with consciously evil intentions, Amos. I'm suggesting that like all empires...it is run for pragmatic reasons, period...and that poses a continual danger to weaker nations, as well as to the natural environment.

If those other nations were the stronger, would they do something similar? Yes, I think they would. The same basic forces would come into play.

However, if one is going to try to resist imperial activities, then one resists the current ruling empire, not some other hypothetical ones that don't exist right now, and the current greatest ruling empire is the USA.

There is no real justification for an American presence in either Iraq or Afghanistan, in my opinion. Dennis Kucinich agrees with me on that. So does Ron Paul. They are Americans.

There are, however, strong pragmatic reasons for America to be there, and they have to do with controlling oil, natural gas, and spheres of influence. That's the kind of thing empires pay close attention to. I do not sympathize with the American imperial cause, but I understand it, and I understand why the people who have put it into motion think they are doing "the right thing". From their point of view, it is the right thing.

It just depends who's feeling the pain, that's all. The Romans found it a good thing to occupy Gaul. The Gauls would have found it a good thing to occupy Rome, if they'd had the strength and expertise to do so. In either case, they did not find the other one's intentions to be "good" one, did they? Who is right, the hammer or the nail? Ask each one and you'll get 2 different answers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: 3refs
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:33 PM

In Canada we have a health care lottery?
I think you meant Henry Fonda in 12 Angry Men?(great movie BTW)

I saw Glen Beck get his ass whopped by, of all people, Barb Walters and Whoopi Goldberg with regards to some felonious remarks he made concerning them! Nice to see him grovel!

I listen to Alex Jones and Steve Quayle periodically and I get called nuts!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:33 PM

LH:

You personify this "imperial cause" as if it were somebody's purpose. It is not. It is a complex of symptoms, deriving from a large number of transactions most of which are decided by individuals looking for their own well-being, the well-being of their families, and the future of the organization through which they feel they are getting these things. Having a large number of such transactions, among a large number of groups comprising a much larger number of individuals, does not add up to some wicked imperialistic motive on anyone's part, sorry.

As an intention, it is just smoke. That is not to say that the apparent large-scale trends of the transactions aren't very similar, but making up bogeymen is not particularly productive.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:53 PM

No, Amos, I do not personify it. I thought I made that clear. It is, exactly as you say: (the result of) "a complex of symptoms, deriving from a large number of transactions most of which are decided by individuals looking for their own well-being, the well-being of their families, and the future of the organization through which they feel they are getting these things."

Precisely. And that complex of systems results in imperialism, causes wars, devastates nature, and creates immense suffering and loss for millions of people in places both far and near as the decades roll by. And so it has ever been.

All I say about it is that I am naturally inclined to oppose the present imperial order in the world, no matter who is running it.

So was Tom Paine, and so was George Washington. The great imperial power thay opposed was Great Britain...and at that time I would probably have opposed Great Britain's imperial ambitions too, because it is my nature to oppose the top dog in the ongoing game of empire.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:25 PM

Z"I was defending him, in other words, but you seem to have missed it."

I didn't miss it, Little Hawk. My point is that the two statements or concepts seem diamatrically opposed.

1) "You happen to be living in the present "Rome" and Obama is the new emperor." (Plus a lot more)

2) ""I fear that this may end up with Americans saddling him with the label of "wimp", as they did with Jimmy Carter.""

Which one is he?



"I think, sir, you are falling into an over-simplistic trap, confusing dominance with imperialistic aggression, and wrapping a complex, multi-faceted nation into a single cartoon of itself to fuel your affection for bombast."

That's a structurally PERFECT sentence, Amos, worthy of Samuel Johnson himself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 05:30 PM

Why, Miss Ebbie!! I am touched. Thank you most kindly, ma'am!


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 05:47 PM

They may seem diametrically opposed, Ebbie, but they are not. A president can continue engaging in a grinding counter-insurgency battle like Afghanistan and still get labelled as a "wimp" by his domestic enemies anyway. Don't underestimate the mean-mindedness of partisan politics when it comes to stuff like that, and don't expect people's personal attacks on politicians to necessarily make any real sense at all. ;-D

There are a lot of Americans out there who are simply determined to find fault with Obama because he's a black man, he's a Democrat, they voted against him, and they would do so no matter what he did or didn't do. Those people will happily call him a "wimp" if they want...or a secret Muslim...or a secret Nazi...whatever they can come up with...whether or not he involves the USA in a continuing conflict in Afghanistan.

The one thing that could temporarily restore his credibility with many of those people would be a brand new all all-out dramatic "shock and awe" type war...specially if Iran was the target. You would then see his stock rise considerably, but probably only in the short term. That old "rally round the flag" mentality sets in fast when a new war starts, but the old attention span starts to dwindle if it bogs down into a long insurgency with no clear end in sight...and that's Afghanistan.

Anyway, my main point had to do with Obama's very articulate and diplomatic approach to dialogue. That's intelligent, but it gets you labelled as a "wimp" by people who prefer Reagan homilies or Rambo-style threats.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: 3refs
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 05:57 PM

I found this..........interesting!!!!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7886780711843120756

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:07 PM

Indeed it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:14 PM

You have fast feet, Little Hawk. :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 10:54 PM

Wow! Brilliant, insightful, and indefensible!


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: 3refs
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:06 AM

I don't think it really matters what your political allegiances might be. How can one watch this entire movie and not believe that at least some of it has to be true. Too many facts, too many figures! Most people know that big business(banks) have been supporting both sides of waring factions for centuries!

Maybe this should have its own thread?

From my cold dead hands!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:39 AM

"How can one watch this entire movie and not believe that at least some of it has to be true."

Well...first you can try to grasp the idea that what Obama is trying to do may just be totally at odds with any secret plans of any international 'banking cartels' or other combinations of sinister nastiness.

That's the thing about conspiracy theories...all you have to do is accept ONE premise about them, and suddenly....any 'facts' and 'figures' can be massaged, interpreted and skewed to comport with whatever you 'suspect'. And when someone throws together a slick video with intense graphics, voilá! Proof!

The film is...**PROPANGANDA**.... It is in line with what has been done for the same centuries that "banks have been supporting warring factions"....only now, they have real experts using advanced technology and psychology to link in your mind stuff that may just be unrelated.

No one doubts that financial interests will always try to perpetuate their power, but to just assume that anyone who GETS some authority is de facto in league with them is self-defeating.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: 3refs
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:15 AM

So, campaign promises that were made, and then reneged upon, are just propaganda?
The Bilderbergers(also Bohemian Grove)are just a figment of someones imagination?
The White House isn't full of "Wall Streeters"?
Are there "no" facts being presented?
Is it "all" a lie?

I'm not that gullible to believe everything I saw and heard(see or hear). I know history has been re-written many times and one must trust the writers, but which ones? Other than your premises that it's all propaganda, you can find no truths at all?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: John P
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 12:12 PM

Hey Folks,
I just came into this thread and read the whole thing, except for most of Little Hawk's posts. Guess what? It's an important and interesting discussion that's being, once again, hijacked by LH's self-satisfied, tangential maunderings. Talking about the issues instead of responding to him will keep this conversation vital and on track.

I read in the paper this morning that a Senate committee has taken the money for end-of-life consultations off the table. The subject, they say, is too much of a lightening rod for the opponents of health care reform. The leading Republican on the committee is one of those who are spreading the lies. In other words, the terrorists won.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 12:21 PM

"At the Town Halls, Trivializing Evil

By Michael Gerson
Friday, August 14, 2009

During live television coverage of the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago, novelist Gore Vidal famously called William F. Buckley a "crypto-Nazi." To which Buckley famously replied (in addition to other choice words), "Stop calling me a crypto-Nazi, or I'll sock you in the goddamn face and you'll stay plastered."

Buckley later apologized. He also explained: "Can such men understand the causes of anger in others? Understand the special reverence we need to feel for that which is hateful? I do not believe that anyone thought me a Nazi because Vidal called me one, but I do believe that everyone who heard him call me one without a sense of shock, without experiencing anger, thinks more tolerantly about Nazism than once he did, than even now he should."

In recent weeks, left and right have employed the Vidal tactic. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused town-hall protesters of "carrying swastikas," leaving the impression they were proud Nazis -- when, in fact, a few protesters carried signs accusing Barack Obama of having Nazi aims (bad enough). Rep. Brian Baird (D-Wash.) declared the protesters guilty of "Brownshirt tactics." Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.) compared America under Obama to Germany in the 1930s. Rush Limbaugh talked of "similarities between the Democrat Party of today and the Nazi Party in Germany."

The accusation is a staple of American T-shirt and bumper-sticker political culture, found too often at liberal antiwar protests and conservative tea parties. Anyone with a black felt pen and the ability to draw a Hitler moustache on a poster can make this witty, trenchant political statement. Michael Moore compared the USA Patriot Act to "Mein Kampf." Al Gore warned of "digital Brownshirts."

This rhetorical strategy is intended to convey intensity of conviction, as in, "I am very, very, very serious, you Nazi jerk." Actually, it is a lazy shortcut to secure an emotional response. Worse than that, it is an argument that puts an end to all argument. What discourse is possible with the spawn of Hitler? And when someone is unjustly accused of Nazi tactics or sympathies, what response can we expect other than Buckley's outrage? Let the head knocking begin.

Worst of all, the Vidal tactic does undermine the "special reverence we need to feel for that which is hateful." Nazism is not a useful symbol for everything that makes us angry, from Iraq to abortion. It is a historical movement, unique in the ambitions of its cruelty. Those who doubt this uniqueness should read Saul Friedlander's "Nazi Germany and the Jews, Vol. 2: The Years of Extermination," which records the Nazi terror with the same meticulousness that the Germans displayed in producing it. Nazism was the "beard game," in which the beards and sidelocks of Jews were pulled off or set afire before audiences of cheering soldiers. It was the practice of making elderly Jews dance around a fire of burning Torah scrolls. It was whole orphanages deported to death camps, and pits full of corpses, and ancient communities erased from human memory, and death factories issuing a thick smoke of souls, and a mother trading her gold ring for a glass of water to give her dying child.

Many who study these events think silence the only appropriate response. "There is nothing," says scholar Lawrence Langer, "to be learned from a baby torn in two or a woman buried live."

But it is our nature to attempt to wrestle meaning from catastrophe. So we draw lessons about the poison of racism, the dangers of blind obedience to authority, the corruption of grand schemes of social purity, the shallowness of civilization in "civilized" nations, and the hatred hiding within ordinary men and women.

These lessons are relevant to politics. But they are trivialized when applied to Obama's health insurance reform plan or the conduct of disorderly town-hall protesters. The burning of the Reichstag and Kristallnacht are not arguments against a single-payer health plan or against the Patriot Act.

For the survivors of Nazism, memory is a kind of sacred duty. The Vidal tactic desacralizes those memories -- shrinking them to the size of our political agendas and robbing them of their power to shock and teach. The history of those times should be approached with fear and trembling, not mocked with metaphor. "

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 12:21 PM

This pretty well sums up the movie for me.

"Propaganda is communication aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda."

Wikipedia

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 12:49 PM

Art Theime,

Dumbing down is the most dangerous and destructive threat facing this nation or any nation.

General Colin Powell was asked in the midst of a discussion on terrorism what he thought was the greatest danger the US over the next 50 years and he said
"inequality of education and a dimished quality of education in the USA is the greatest threat facing this nation."

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 08:00 PM

I have a suggestion for those of you who hate Limbaugh, Beck, Coulter, Hannity, etc.

Don't listen to or watch them.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 08:02 PM

Hey, they're better than mustard, oil and milk at making me throw up.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 08:09 PM

"I have a suggestion for those of you who hate Limbaugh, Beck, Coulter, Hannity, etc.

"Don't listen to or watch them." DougR

The reason we must listen to them - only as we are able to bear it! -, Doug R, is that as long as some people believe the Limbaughs, Becks, Coulters and Hannitys, we must.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:35 PM

I have a suggestion for those of you who hate Limbaugh, Beck, Coulter, Hannity, etc.

I don't hate 'em Douggie- they are pathalogical, damaged individuals & probably deserve a modicum of pity.

What I DO hate is the lies, hate, and bullshit they foist on the public and especially on the segment of the public that is too ignorant, uninformed, or simply too stupid to know that it IS lies and bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:55 PM

I listen to this collection of blowhards (at least as much as my level of disgust can tolerate) so that when someone tries to hand me a load of crap a few days later, I know who their suppliers are. And by then, I've had a chance to ferret out the lies--generally not too difficult a task.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 01:27 AM

Why don't those of you who are so exercised about Limbaugh, etc., just call your local flagelation society and invite a flogger out to your house to administer twenty or so lashes to your back when one of these folks are are on radio or TV? If self flagelation doesn't work, hire somebody to do it for you.

I don't like to see anybody suffer.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: 3refs
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 05:19 AM

"Limbaugh, Beck, Coulter, Hannity, etc."
I only recognize 3 of those people. I believe in freedom of speech. I also believe in censorship! I don't think hate, towards one group or another, should be tolerated. Where my own dilemma lies is when we have, what many consider to be a masterpiece, "To Kill A Mockingbird", removed from a High School here in Ontario because "ONE" parent complained. Now I'm quite aware that those were different times. Derogatory terms, language, bigotry and racism was rampant. It's a sad part of history! "I" also have a problem with some of the "entertainment" young kids can get their hands(and ears)on today. I heard a "stat" the other day, and it was said that my generation had wittnessed a few hundred deaths via TV and movies by the time we were 18. Todays kids see about 30,000.

BTW
I'm not overly fond of any of the above!
That's not to say that maybe they might say something I might agree with!

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 10:10 AM

Yet more incisive, witty reparteé from the in-house comedian.

Amusing? NOT.

And he obviously doesn't mind the suffering of those without access to health insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 10:53 AM

Figure this out:

Anti-Obama health care ad on TV observes that all Congressmen are automatically covered by health insurance. (Naturally, they have jobs.) Scary voice then says that evil senators like Pelosi and Rangel are trying to push through "a health care plan they don't even want for themselves."

But wait, wait! Then it says,

"So *they'll* still have a better plan than the *rest* of us!"

A sadistic ruling class pushing laws with no point but to make the workers squirm?

I dunno, but it sure don't sound like neocon talk! (Or are they far, far, *far* more devious than we think...?)

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 11:45 AM

That/Those ads sound incoherent. FWIW, it's my understanding that the health insurance available to legislators is good insurance, but that they do pay for it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 12:14 PM

Ebbie, I agree. But "coherence" is not a political requirement. "Fear" is.

The note of doom, the scowling photos of Pelosi and Rangel, the pictures of D-Day and the sympathetic statement that "our seniors have sacrificed enough!" - that's what counts.

Did Tom Hanks die in France so Unconstitutional Obama could turn America into his dreamed-of Canadian-style Nazi slave state??

The answer, I trust, is no.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 12:24 PM

Q. are they far, far, *far* more devious than we think...?

A. Yes.

Depending, of course, on how devious one thinks they are.
(Suggestion: Karl Rove, 'Swiftboat' gang, etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 12:41 PM

A "Reality Check" on the actual WHite House health policies. Helps to go to the source, no?


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: 3refs
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 01:08 PM

"Canadian-style Nazi slave state??"
As a Canadian, I take exception to that!

We pay for our Health Care in Ontario(OHIP). It's calculated in our income tax returns. Under 20k you pay nothing. 200k and over, you pay $900. We(my family)have additional coverage that costs us another $600 a year. So, it's not free for everyone!

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 03:53 PM

Amos, you are a riot! Again you offer, as arbiters of truth, part of the White House gang, and supporters of your POV. Real objective folks, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 04:01 PM

Doug:

If you are going to start a disinformation campaign inciting people to furious states of outrage based on completely false information -- something like Hitler's campaign to re-educate Germany about the Jews, remember?--you should start by finding out what you are defaming and at least do yourself the favor of knowing what you are planning to lie about.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 06:57 PM

...do yourself the favor of knowing what you are planning to lie about.

I don't think Douggie is likely to take you up on this suggestion.

He's always been quite assertively proud that he has no idea what he is lying - oh, excuse me- talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 10:49 PM

Today while on the phone with a friend, I had an insight that helps me.

I think we all agree that we in the US at the moment are experiencing and dealing with a great deal of anger.

But there is another way to say that: Since anger stems from fear, we in the US at the moment are experiencing a great deal of fear.

So how do we address the fear?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 10:53 PM

Start out with, "You're going to be OK."

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 11:21 PM

ANd "I can confront this comfortably enough to see it clearly...".



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 11:26 PM

The anger that is on display in some of the townhall presentations of the current health reform bill is an ugly thing but thinking of it as fear keeps my own anger down.

I don't know that the best option of health care reform (I wish it were McGrath's 'revolution') is being presented but I do hope we keep on pushing on it. The Clinton administration had to give it up; I hope it won't happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 11:46 PM

The continuous rebuttal of insanity, I hope, will persevere and cool things off. Obama wins this kind of crap, historically, by staying level headed, open to communication, and sticking to the clear truth as much as possible.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 11:50 PM

'"Canadian-style Nazi slave state??"'

Where regardless of income, background, religion, language, colour, hair style, ethnicity a person can get medical treatment that's good.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 11:51 PM

Did I mention sexual orientation, marital status--or with whom? Some slave state.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 07:36 AM

So how do we address the fear?

Not with facts & truth, apparently. They sure don't seem to work worth a damn with these mindless idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 08:55 AM

"Did Tom Hanks die in France so Unconstitutional Obama could turn America into his dreamed-of Canadian-style Nazi slave state??"

Funniest thing I've read so far today.
BTW, just because someone has a job doesn't mean they have health insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 08:58 AM

Hold on--did Tom Hanks actually get killed in that movie? Must stop walking out of a movie to pee, or maybe hit the 'pause' button.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 09:14 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilter

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: 3refs
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 09:56 AM

Yes, Tom died at the bridge where Private Ryan refused to leave his comrades!
Helping to presurve, among other Nations, that Canadian-style Nazi slave state.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: 3refs
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 12:49 PM

preserve

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 01:16 PM

" I don't mind a dicatorship as long as I'm the dictator".....GW Bush

Nazism (an offshoot of a perverted from of socialism) is not kindly disposed to African-American presidents for one thing. For another, many socialists were jailed under Hitler.
He didn't even like atheists.

Nazism, strictly speaking is not Benito Mussolini fascism which is the wedding corporate interests with military ones. Hitler was not wedded to corporate interests with exception of those he could use such as Krupp or I.B. Farben to build ovens. Then there is Volkswagen.

Naziism was not corporate but more grass roots political. So the question remains,
who are the real Nazis in the US today?

The crazies in the healthcare protests don't really know their history very well.

Demonizing is a Republican trick. (Let's pick Hitler). They use it whenever they can to make their non-point.

There is no real debate going on about Healthcare among the "crazies". They like to hear themselves yell. That's it.

Obama, unlike Hitler, is willing to listen to another point of view. These "crazies" are unable to do that.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: John P
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 04:49 PM

DougR,
Obviously we don't need to listen to Limbaugh and company if we don't want to, but given that a large number of our fellow citizens apparently believe Limbaugh is telling the truth, it's a good idea to know what's being said.

I have some questions for you:
Do you listen to Limbaugh and believe/agree with what he says?
Do you think Obama was not born in the United States?
Do you think the Obama administration bears any resemblance to Nazi Germany?
Do you think universal health care is socialism? What about Medicare? What about your local fire department?
Do you think it's appropriate that the richest nation on earth has millions of people who can't afford to go to the doctor?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 05:06 PM

Joh, you're wasting your time. Of course, its yours to waste as you see fit ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 07:43 PM

Several serious news outlets and an independent agency or two report that Obama's birth certificate is real and they've seen it.

But just last week the supermarket tabloid The Globe called it a fake!

Who, oh who, are we to believe? If only the Weekly World News were still around to tell us!

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 08:22 PM

"Several serious news outlets and an independent agency or two report that Obama's birth certificate is real and they've seen it."

Are these the same ones who supported Bush in invading Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 08:48 PM

Hilter(sic)=Obama campaign: is this anything like the Bush=Hitler campaign of just a short while ago? Just thinking out loud.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: TIA
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 08:50 PM

And what is the price of tea in China Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 08:52 PM

Bruce:

You are being extremely far-fetched to even make such a comparison, amigo. Hold on to your sense of perspective.

Although I admit it is almost as improbable that there would be anything amiss with Obama's birth record as it would be to think the US would launch a premeditated, unilateral invasion of a third-world country on a superficial, unfounded rationale. That's about as far as the similarity goes, though.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 10:09 PM

On the off chance that this will impress someone, somewhere, who can use impressing:

http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2009/06/my_latest_townhall_column_3_re.php

Alternative theory: the notice of Obama's birth in Honolulu in 1961, printed in the Honolulu paper the very next day, was planted there by his parents to enable him to serve as President at some future date should he decide to run and actually be elected.

I chose this website specifically because it describes itself as "right-wing" and has a link to a nonpartisan source. I neither endorse nor dispute any other story on this site.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 10:13 PM

http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2009/06/my_latest_townhall_column_3_re.php

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 10:47 PM

The madness deepens:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090817/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_protesters_guns

The Supreme Court recently upheld the Constitutional Right to Bear Arms. Don't such protesters realize that whatever their Second-Amendment rights are, this particular behavior gives cover to individuals with far less peaceful agendas?

I really don't care to think too hard about that question.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 11:10 PM

Be it Father Flanigan, Joe McCarthy, Limbaugh or Beck, most people will eventually wake up with a hangover from the harangue of these hateful blowhards. But do not pity these propogandists.

Look at Bill O'Reilly's paycheck and all your questions about why he "believes" as he does will become perfectly clear. Sure it takes a souless bastard to sell themselves that way, but they are as common as dirt and as perky as Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 01:02 PM

Wow! I didn't see the Glenn Beck show that prompted Donuel to launch this thread, but he sure (Glenn not Donuel) struck a chord didn't he.

George P.: I don't know you. You don't know me. Yet you are emboldened to pose some very personal questions that one could consider none of your business. My private beliefs, my private listening habits, etc. are just that! Personal.

However, since you seem to be such a likable fellow, I will accommodate you with a reply to each of your intrusive questions:

"Do you listen to Rush Limbaugh and believe/agree with what he says?
Answer: Yes, I listen to Rush, and have done so for about the past ten years. If I am in the car and his program is on, I likely am listening to him. As to believing or agreeing with what he says, I know of no one that I believe EVERYTHING he/she says, but I think it would be fair to say I agree with probably 95% of what he says.

"Do you think Obama was born in the United States?"
Answer: I haven't the foggiest idea. It is beyond me why he has not produced an acceptable birth certificate that would put this idea to rest one way or the other. The same with his University records.

"Do you think the Obama administration resembles Nazi Germany.
Answer: No. I do believe that the president would favor converting the United States to socialism from the representative republic which it is now though.

"Do you think Universal Health Care is socialism?"
Answer: Yes.
"Medicare?", No. Medicare is a federal program that is not available to the whole population of the U.S. until he/she reaches the age of 65, and even then, the citizen must have participated in funding the program during their working years. Otherwise, they are not eligible.
"Fire Department?" (That's kind of a reach isn't it?) Answer: No.

"Do you think it is appropriate that the richest nation on earth has millions of people who cannot afford to go to a doctor?"
Answer: No one in the United States may legally be turned away from America's hospital emergency room without receiving care (not FREE care though)for illness, injury or any other malady that requires treatment.

I do realize what you are getting at with your last question, though. Am I so heartless that I rejoice that some of my fellow citizens cannot afford health insurance.
Answer: No, I do not rejoice. I wish they could afford health insurance.

I also wish that I owned a summer home in Ireland, or maybe Scotland, or even Colorado. I also wish that everyone else could afford one too. I wish that all diseases in the world could be eradicated, that there never would be another war, oh so many other things.

There, I think I have addressed your questions. Now that we know each other so well, it's my turn.

Did you have sex with your wife last night? Your girl friend? Your partner? Your boy friend?

Did you attend church last Sunday? If so, did you believe everything that was said from the pulpit?

Have you ever told a lie?

Have you ever cheated on your wife? Girlfriend? Boyfriend?

Do you think you will go to heaven when you die?

There, I think that about does it. I'd ask more but it's time for me to leave for the YMCA to walk the treadmill. Yep, you're right, it's time for the Rush Limbaugh show on radio. I always listen to Rush while walking the treadmill. He won't be there today, though, but Mark Stein is filling in and I like him too!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 01:51 PM

Now, follow in your books and repeat after me as we learn four new words in English:

puerile: adj. 1: Juvenile 2: childish, silly.

puerilism n. C childish behavior, esp. as a symptom of mental disorder.

vacuous: adj. :1:emptied of or lacking content. 2: marked by lack of ideas or intelligence : stupid : inane

nugatory adj. : of little or no consequence: trifling: inconsequential

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 01:58 PM

No one in the United States may legally be turned away from America's hospital emergency room without receiving care...

And another:

lie n. : an assertion of something known to be untrue with intent to deceive 2: an untrue or innacurate statement 3: something that misleads or deceives.


NB: what IS America's hospital emergency room, and where is it located, in case I need to aqvail myself of its services?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 02:39 PM

Greg F

Please provide the documentation about the so-called "lie".

As far as I am aware, the emergency rooms in the local hospitals ARE required to treat anyone who comes in, regardless of whether they can pay or not. They can be billed, but the treatment is ALWAYS provided.

It appears to me that you are the liar in this case. Or maybe I am not in the same "United States" that you are in...

Subject: Custom Cartoon for this topic
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 03:01 PM

New cartoon Beck's Brigage

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: John P
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 06:56 PM

DougR,
First of all, my name is John, not George.

Asking you questions about whether or not you listen to Rush Limbaugh seemed appropriate, since you were mocking people for listening to him, and mocking Donuel for starting this thread. If you don't want to be part of the conversation, don't join in. Since it's a thread about whether or not Limbaugh et al are liars, pretending that asking you about it is getting into personal territory is dumb. Maybe as dumb as thinking that means you get to ask me about my sex life.

You and I pay for the health care of all those people who go to the emergency room because they don't have insurance. It's a huge waste, and part of the reason our health care system is broken. Deciding that only the wealthy get to have health care outside of the emergency rooms that you and I pay for is, indeed, heartless. I don't think you are rejoicing about that, but it is terribly selfish of you.

If you don't believe the president was born in the United States you're an idiot. Do you really think the Republican Party didn't check it out? Do you really think all the websites that are displaying images of his birth certificate are presenting fake evidence? Do a Google image search. It turns up 579,900 hits.

If you believe that the president wants to do away with our representative government, you're an idiot. Do you have any evidence of that, other than Rush Limbaugh? Besides, a representative republic could just as easily be socialist as capitalist. The two aren't really related in this way.

If you believe 95% of what Rush Limbaugh says, you're an idiot. Willful ignorance is MUCH worse that plain old normal ignorance. I'm curious as to how you put up with his being a drug addict and lying about it.

If you don't see the analogy between the members of our society joining forces to fight fires and members of our society joining together to send sick folks to the doctor, you're an idiot. Here's a good one for you: if universal health care is socialism, so is the United States Army. Anything we pay for as a group is a degree of socialism. Most of us call it civilization.

The reason I asked you those questions is so I could maybe find out -- and encourage you to proclaim to the world -- how much of an idiot you really are. Thank you for the illumination. Now we know how much your opinion on this subject is worth. I know I sound harsh, but you bastards are trying to ruin our country and I'm tired of it. Is maintaining a collection of easily proven lies really more important to you than honesty and honor? I know, I know, we all tore down Bush while he was in office. News flash: Bush started a war based on lies, killed thousands of people (WAY more than the terrorists of 9/11), endorsed torture as a tool of American statecraft, and trashed the Constitution by inviting religious folks into the government and by spying on us in ways that were specifically named as illegal. Don't you think you should wait until Obama does something almost as bad before you start disparaging his patriotism and truthfulness?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 07:23 PM

BB: check the "Nationalized Health Care Thread where this has been dealt with, and been proven to be Douggian Bullshit several times over.

I'm not going to copy it here for you; do your own homework for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 07:33 PM

"You and I pay for the health care of all those people who go to the emergency room because they don't have insurance. "

So you think Greg F. is a liar, too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: John P
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 07:56 PM

No, BB, I don't thing GregF is a liar. I also don't think a trip to the emergency room is viable or cost-effective health care.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:06 PM

Then his statement that the emergency room refuises to treat pepole is true?

I thought you stated ""You and I pay for the health care of all those people who go to the emergency room because they don't have insurance. "

I agree it is not cost effective- but it implies that they ARE treated.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: John P
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:13 PM

BB, you don't seem to be able wrap your brain around the concept of a statement not being accurate and also not being a lie. I'm so sorry for your disability. Is it really important? Is it in some way pertinent to this discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:19 PM

Greg F stated
18 Aug 09 - 01:58 PM

which is stating that DougR is lying in his statement "No one in the United States may legally be turned away from America's hospital emergency room without receiving care..."
It appears to me that your statement supports DougR, and the facts as I know them ( thaqt emergency rooms treat all who come in).

Greg F. is great at attacking anyone who disagrees with him, but often fails to support his views with facts. In this case, he is lying in his accusation that DougR is lying.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:22 PM

"the concept of a statement not being accurate and also not being a lie."

Yet you allow GregF to suffer with the same disability , and call peopel who state the truth liars without comment. That seems to indicate that you have little claim to being either fair or open-minded.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:44 PM

http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/contact

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:49 PM

"I will NOT be mocked!"
SNL 1988

What! I was mocked? By my dear friend Doug R? Unbelievable.

Actually what is unbelievable is Doug having or being a dear friend.


I will soon present a series of actual Beck video stills showing thousands of Nazis as he speaks of Obama Health care reform.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:53 PM

I larger version of Pistol Packin Palin Pals - say it don't spray it

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 10:22 PM

Gee, John P., I guess I won't be getting a Christmas card from you this year.

The law, requiring America's hospital emergency facilities to treat anyone who shows up for treatment was passed, I believe, in 1986. I'll check it out and post the date and info.

I believe John P. is aware of that law because he admits that tax payers have to shoulder much of the cost for those hospitals treating patients without health insurance.

Since the law was passed in the early to mid 1980's, I am not surprised, Beardedbruce, that Greg F. is unaware of it. He probably wasn't born until several years later, say ...1996? I'm just judging by the maturity of his posts.

DougR

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 10:26 PM

Emergency Room rights in the US.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/KnowYourRights/KnowYourEmergencyRoomRights.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 10:29 PM

Wikipedia article here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 10:31 PM

For those like Greg F. that think if they repeat a lie often enough it will be believed:

"Fortunately, a federal law passed in 1986 to prohibit a practice commonly known as "patient dumping" gives you the right to emergency care regardless of your ability to pay. The federal law applies to hospitals that participate in Medicare -- and that includes most hospitals in the United States. However, the patient-dumping law does not give you carte blanche.

What you're entitled to
In a nutshell, the federal patient-dumping law entitles you to three things: screening, emergency care and appropriate transfers. A hospital must provide "stabilizing care" for a patient with an emergency medical condition. The hospital must screen for the emergency and provide the care without inquiring about your ability to pay"

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 10:35 PM

Lord knows Doug and I have had more than a few go-arounds on Mudcat. I would point out however that he's never been anything but a gentleman. True, sometimes I feel like banging my head against a wall but that's my choice, not his. The enemy in this are insurance companies who insist on premasticating the information we get; congressmen/women who have theirs and screw everyone else, and lobby groups who have lots of money available. That in itself should alert people in the US to the alarming influence self-serving companies have over US government policies and efforst to help those who need the help most--but likely won't get that help until/unless they are informed to take their offers elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 10:37 PM

Thank you, Peace.


There is a lot of good to be found in the goals of reform, but it is the "unintended consequences' that will be with us for many generations. The use of lies, such as Greg F. presents, have no place in a civil discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 10:47 PM

I'd also point out howvever that Greg F is also a damned good guy. Thing is, I know most of you to a greater or lesser degree and don't find any of you objectionable, or nuts, or rude, etc. People express themselves differently and stuff does seem to get lost in translation. I think maybe we've all said things we didn't mean in "the heat of the moment". But, it doesn't have to last forever. Nor should it.

In the process of ripping each other apart for one thing or another, we have lost sight of the real problem (which in my opinion) is a wasted expenditure to protect their stock holders' interests--read their own interests, because most CEOs of large insurance companies could retire right now and have enough blood money to last the rest of their lives. It is about greed in high places, not a few posts in which a few of us lose our cool.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 10:50 PM

Many here that I disagree with are great people, who I would pay to hear perform- but that does not mean that I will allow false statements and deliberate lies to go unchallanged just because they may "support" the popular view.

I treat Greg F. far better than he has been treating others posting here and on other threads.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:07 PM

It is a really insensate stretch to say that the proviso you have cited above constitutes medical care. It constitutes emergency care only. "Appropriate transfer" means to a place you cannot afford without insurance. What am I missing here?


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:18 PM

Amos,

Since you can't or won't read, let me post this:

"Hospital obligations
Hospitals have three obligations under EMTALA:

Individuals requesting emergency care, or those for whom a representative has made a request if the patient is unable, must receive a medical screening examination to determine whether an emergency medical condition (EMC) exists. Examination and treatment cannot be delayed to inquire about methods of payment or insurance coverage, or a patient's citizenship or legal status. The hospital may only start the process of payment inquiry and billing once the patient has been stabilized to a degree that the process will not interfere with or otherwise compromise patient care.
The emergency room (or other better equipped units within the hospital) must treat an individual with an EMC until the condition is resolved or stabilized and the patient is able to provide self-care following discharge, or if unable, can receive needed continual care. Inpatient care provided must be at an equal level for all patients, regardless of ability to pay. Hospitals may not discharge a patient prior to stabilization if the patient's insurance is canceled or otherwise discontinues payment during course of stay.
If the hospital does not have the capability to treat the condition, the hospital must make an "appropriate" transfer of the patient to another hospital with such capability. This includes a long-term care or rehabilitation facilities for patients unable to provide self-care. Hospitals with specialized capabilities must accept such transfers and may not discharge a patient until the condition is resolved and the patient is able to provide self-care or is transferred to another facility.

[edit] Amendments
Since its original passage, amendments to this act have been passed by U.S. Congress that either add or remove various obligations. Additionally, state and local laws in some places have imposed additional requirements on hospitals. These amendments include:

A patient is defined as "stable," therefore ending a hospital's EMTALA obligations, if:
The patient is conscious, alert, and oriented
The cause of all symptoms reported by the patient or representative, and all potentially life-threatening, limb-threatening, or organ-threatening symptoms discovered by hospital staff, has been ascertained to the best of the hospital's ability.
Any conditions that are immediately life-threatening, limb-threatening, or organ-threatening have been treated to the best of the hospital's ability to ensure the patient does not need further inpatient care.
The patient is able to care for themselves, with or without special equipment, which if needed, must be provided. The required abilities are:
Breathing
Feeding
Mobility
Dressing
Personal hygiene
Toileting
Medicating
Communication
Another competent person is available and able to meet the patient's needs following discharge.
All patients have EMTALA rights equally, regardless of age, race, religion, nationality, ethnicity, residence, citizenship, or legal status. If patient's status is found to be illegal, hospitals may not discharge a patient prior to completion of care, though law enforcement and hospital security may take necessary action to prevent a patient from escaping or harming others. Treatment may only be delayed as needed to prevent patients from harming themselves or others.
Overloaded hospitals may not discharge a patient unable to pay to make room for a patient who is able to pay or is otherwise viewed by society as a more valued citizen. If the emergency room is overloaded, patients must be treated in an order based on their determined medical needs, not their ability to pay.
Hospitals may not deny or provide substandard services to a patient who already has outstanding debt to the hospital, and may not withhold the patient's belongings, records, or other required services until the patient pays.
Hospitals and related services cannot receive a judgment against the patient in court filings made more than 36 months after the date the patient was discharged, or the last partial payment the patient made to the hospital, contractor, or agent. After that period, the patient may not be threatened with legal action if payment is not made, and may not be denied future outpatient services from the same company/agency that a patient is able to pay.
If a patient has been awarded monetary damages against the hospital or any related or affiliated services by a court of law, or has settled out of court on damages, the hospital and related/affiliated services may not withhold monies due to lack of payment, or count the money toward the bill in lieu of making payment to the patient. Voluntary consent for such an arrangement is permitted only if initiated by the patient. Hospitals may not threaten or coerce a patient into such a settlement, or mislead the patient into believing such an arrangement is required or recommended.
Patients cannot face criminal prosecution for failure to pay, even if the patient came to the hospital aware of inability to pay. Hospitals and third-party agents may not threaten patients with prosecution as a means of scaring the patient into making payment. Patient can be prosecuted under existing federal, state, or local laws for providing false name, address, or other information to avoid payment, receiving bills, or to hide fugitive status.
A hospital may not perform a credit check on a patient either before, during, or after stay. The patient cannot receive a negative credit mark for failure to pay the hospital or any related services, or any third-party agent collecting on their behalf. Such services may not threaten patient with credit reporting to scare them into paying.
Hospitals are prohibited from discriminating against or providing substandard care to those who appear impoverished or homeless, are not well-dressed or groomed, or exhibit signs of mental illness or intoxication. If the hospital fears a patient may be a threat to others, the hospital may delay care only as necessary to protect others.
Hospitals are required to sufficiently feed patients unable to pay at a level equal to those able to pay, while meeting all physician-ordered dietary restrictions.
Hospitals are not required to provide premium services to the patient not related to medical care (such as television) when failure to provide this service does not compromise patient care.
Hospitals and affiliated clinics are not required to provide continued outpatient care, drugs, or other supplies following discharge. In the event such services are recommended, but a patient is unable to pay, the hospital is required to refer the patient to a clinic or tax-funded or private program that enables the patient to pay for these services, and to which the patient has reasonable access. Hospitals must reasonably assist patients as necessary to obtain these services by providing information the patient requests. "

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:25 PM

A word or two in the defense of emergency rooms. Last year I developed severe pain overnight - didn't sleep a wink because I couldn't hold still - and went to the emergency room in the morning.

I told them I thought I was having a gall bladder attack, even though I had never had symptoms. However, I knew several of my relatives had had pain the night before and had the gall bladder out the next day or so. So I thought...

Anyway, I lay there for a number of hours while tests of all sorts were run. I couldn't understand why they didn't take me upstairs and hustle me into the operating room. At that point, I would've been willing to do it without anesthetic and I couldn't understand why so many doctors examined my abdomen and why they ran everything from EKGs and ultrasounds on me. Hey! I'm in pain here! I've got a gall bladder that needs to come out!

Early in the afternoon, the main doctor came to me again and said they don't think it's my gall bladder but that I have a strangulated intestine. He added, I think we should take you upstairs and fix it, OK?

OK! I said.

Which they did. I'll never bad mouth an emergency room again. I am mightily impressed with the care I received there.

That said, I agree that an ER is NO substitute for one's own doctor and ongoing health care.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:46 AM

...for a patient with an emergency medical condition.

read it one more time, BB - you may comprehend, yet,(tho I doubt it) why this, as Amos and others have repeatedly pointed out, is not adequate medical care.

Also , lets review from up-thread:

lie n. : an assertion of something known to be untrue with intent to deceive 2: an untrue or innacurate statement 3: something that misleads or deceives

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 09:09 AM

I'd also point out howvever that Greg F is also a damned good guy.

Why, thank you, kind sir. And many happy returns to you.

...the real problem (which in my opinion) is a wasted expenditure to protect their stock holders' interests...

That's certainly one of the problems, Bruce, and a major one- but that's also inherent in the driving force behind capitalism: unbridled greed. Until we turn things around in the US so that providing medical care instead of generating profits is the objective, we're screwed.

Its depressing to note that the US went thru a similar situation of unbridled capitalism screwing the country over during the Gilded Age a century ago & it was a hard fight for progressives like Theodore Roosevelt (a Republican, by the way, back when the Republican Party wasn't the reactionary joke it has become today) to get things back on track & rein in the "malefactors of great wealth".

This entire history has apparently been forgotten by (or never taught to- but the failures of the educational system is a whole different problem) a substantial portion of the population. Just as the generation who remembers the 1920's, the Great Depression and how things actually were before the New Deal has pretty much died off & the reality of that era has been replaced by more bullshit and invented "memory". But I digress...

Worse than the 'rule of greed', opponents of a decent health care ( which care the rest of the civilized world has somehow managed to provide its citizens with for some deacdes) realizing that there's no way in hell thay can win the arguement on the merits & on the basis of factual information, have resorted to lies, half-truths, invention and absolute fantasy to scare the livin' crap out of ignorant & uninformed individuals. Demagogic control by unending bullshit. I hope some of the posters here recognize themselves. That way lies fascism.

This I find inexcusable in a country with pretensions to democratic government. And if the spewers of bullshit take offence at my calling them on their spew - well, screw 'em.


In a sordid slime harmonious Greed was born in yonder ditch,
With a longing in his bosom and for others' goods an itch.
As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich
Our god is marching on.
   
                        -   Mark Twain, 1900


Plus ça change ...

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: bobad
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:09 AM

It's a coincidence (or maybe not) that you should post that verse of Mark Twain's song as Bruce used to sing a version of it back when.

The lyrics had relevance back in the sixties as, sadly, they still do today. As you say: Plus ça change.

The Battle Hymn Of The Republic, Updated
Mark Twain

    Mine eyes have seen the orgy of the launching of the Sword;
    He is searching out the hoardings where the stranger's wealth is stored;
    He hath loosed his fateful lightnings, and with woe and death has scored;
    His lust is marching on.

    I have seen him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps;
    They have builded him an altar in the Eastern dews and damps;
    I have read his doomful mission by the dim and flaring lamps --
    His night is marching on.

    I have read his bandit gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
    "As ye deal with my pretensions, so with you my wrath shall deal;
    Let the faithless son of Freedom crush the patriot with his heel;
    Lo, Greed is marching on!"

    We have legalized the strumpet and are guarding her retreat;
    Greed is seeking out commercial souls before his judgement seat;
    O, be swift, ye clods, to answer him! be jubilant my feet!
    Our god is marching on!

    In a sordid slime harmonious Greed was born in yonder ditch,
    With a longing in his bosom -- and for others' goods an itch.
    As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich --
    Our god is marching on.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: 3refs
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 03:38 PM

The word inspiration doesn't do the song justice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GCfM60RriM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFh0oy6vIt4

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: bobad
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 03:54 PM

The Chad Mitchell Trio's version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP9_DIjr2zY&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: John P
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 03:54 PM

Why has emergency room care become so important to this discussion? It's there, it's inadequate, it's a stupid way to take care of people, and if you need something the emergency room can't give you, you're still screwed. Is there anything more that needs to be said? Are we talking about it just because BB wants so badly to prove that Greg is a liar? Earth to BB: Words are tricky, and people both can and can't get care in emergency rooms, depending on the care needed. Also, a lie requires intent. Can we move on now?

DougR and beardedbruce, this is a thread about people who have big microphones and who tell lies about the President and his policies. The problem is that so many people believe the lies that it impedes the process of discussing the issues on their merits. You are both apparently taking the other side -- or so I assume, since neither of you have really said anything substantive on the subject, other than DougR admitting that he believes 95% of what Rush Limbaugh says and thinks Obama ought to engage the birthers by producing a birth certificate. Would either of you be willing to explain some of these issues from the conservative side? On the surface, it appears that the birthers are trivializing any conversation, and marginalizing the conservative movement to the point where it has become an international laughing stock. Is there another way to look at this?

All of the Hitler references, the socialist references, the death squad lies, and the astroturf protests seem to many of us to be irresponsible and dangerous. News organizations are more interested in sales than in accuracy, and even some members of Congress are repeating the lies. Can one of you tell us why this is all going on, and why it's appropriate to behave in this manner? Someone who sounds like Rush Limbaugh would normally be considered a whacko fringe conspiracy theorist, but instead he seems to have the Republican party at his beck and call. Is there really no one over there on the right who values truth and honesty over liberal-bashing and winning?

If you think Limbaugh and gang are telling the truth, can you offer any evidence that supports what they say?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 04:01 PM

You sure know how to stop a thread, John.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 04:08 PM

Guess I'll start it up again.

AP, via Yahoo a few minutes ago:

DARTMOUTH, Mass. – Rep. Barney Frank lashed out at protester who held a poster depicting President Barack Obama with a Hitler-style mustache during a heated town hall meeting on federal health care reform.

"On what planet do you spend most of your time?" Frank asked the woman, who had stepped up to the podium at a southeastern Massachusetts senior center to ask why Frank supports what she called a Nazi policy.

"Ma'am, trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. I have no interest in doing it," Frank replied.

He continued by saying her ability to deface an image of the president and express her views "is a tribute to the First Amendment that this kind of vile, contemptible nonsense is so freely propagated."

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 04:31 PM

I watched the video. THe woman seemed pleasant enough until she opened her mouth; turned out the brain had not been put in gear before engaging the jaw. Frank handled her well, in that he refused to be drawn in to a nonsensical dialog.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 05:21 PM

First of all, Obama has produced a birth certificate so those that don't believe it are
merely repeating a lie.

Second, the US has been practicing a socialist policy for some time now as the Veteran's Adminstration, Medicare, the US Postal service, Medicaid and formerly food stamps.
The roads are built by the government (national and local) so the "socialist scare" is
a canard.

What we are seeing are protests without any substantial proof of their allegations but
more to the point, a tie-in with insurance companies who are masking their lobbying efforts as public demonstrations.

The bottom line is this. Racism. Those who are protesting are racists, pure and simple.
They are mostly white beligerent people and the issue is not about health care. This goes for many of the so-called blue dog democrats as well. These people just can't stand the idea of an African-American president.

That said, I think Obama is making a huge mistake for giving up on the public option
and whitewashing his decision with the idea of a paper tiger such as an insurance co-op which will be considerably weaker than a public option. This will impair any future political ambitions he may have.

If Republicans reclaim the White House, this country is doomed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 05:29 PM

Just to brighten your day, Frank, think Palin in 2012.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 05:32 PM

Me thinks John P. is a very angry man.

Peace:Thanks for posting that information about required emergency room care.

You, too, Beardedbruce, for your contribution.

I must sign off now because I know Greg F. is trying to reach me to apologize for calling me a liar. I'm confident that he will ...well, I think he will, er, ah, oh, maybe he won't. I guess I won't hold my breath waiting.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: John P
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 05:42 PM

DougR,
If you think Limbaugh and gang are telling the truth, can you offer any evidence that supports what they say?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 05:47 PM

BTW, that beardedbruce guy is another one of my good friends here. He has been for more than a few years now. He and I agree on many things (amongst them that the name Bruce is absolutely wonderful). We disagree on others. But, I will tell you this: he is tenacious. And another darned good guy.

I wish we could all disagree without getting into it with each other. If I had one wish that would be it.

Looking and reading that the "White House" (Obama?) had already made agreements with various pharmaceutical companies gave a whole new light to some stuff for me. And I've begun to see that maybe Sawzaw, bb and Doug have some valid points. Although I lean more to the 'left' than bb and Doug, and a bit more to the 'right' of Sawzaw, and camp just about where Greg F is, I still like all the people involved.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 05:48 PM

Not only have I no intention of apologizing, Douggie, but I'm happy you've provided me with the opportunity to call you a liar once again, because by either originating or promulgating the sort of "vile, contemptible nonsense" as you consistently do, a liar is precisely what you are.

And if I may quote Congressman Frank:

"...trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. I have no interest in doing it."

Only difference being the table can't lie.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 06:07 PM

... maybe Sawzaw, bb and Doug have some valid points...

Even a broken clock is right twice a day, Bruce.

I don't think even Doug can be wrong 100% of the time, tho he tries pretty hard & comes damn close.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 06:10 PM

Well, Doug was sure right about one thing: the sky IS falling.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 07:51 PM

Informative:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_fact_check_health_poll

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:12 PM

Peace: I'm glad you said that. That's absolutely correct! The sky is definitely falling.

Greg F: Oh shoot, no apology? That's okay Greggie, I forgive you.

John P: There you go again with the questions?

Can you provide evidence Rush is wrong?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:29 PM

Can anyone provide evidence Rush is correct? Its obvious he's Right.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 08:49 PM

This isn't really evidence of anything; just one way of expressing an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:18 PM

You sure that's Rush? Looks more like Doug to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:28 PM

Sarah Palin, She Who Was Governor, as they call her in the Anchorage paper, has been in the news with her 'death panels' diatribe. She, however, does not see fit to mention that in 2008 she herself signed such a resolution.

Truths and Untruths

"Former Gov. Sarah Palin (R-Alaska) recently claimed that the end-of-live provision in the healthcare reform legislation would create a government "death panel" to decide such issues. But during her term as governor, she signed a resolution that "encouraged hospitals, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, continuing care retirement communities, and hospices" to help patients make end-of-life plans.

"In 2008, Palin signed a state resolution proclaiming April 16 as "Heathcare Decisions Day," which was "designed to raise public awareness of the need to plan ahead for healthcare decisions, related to end of life care and medical decision-making whenever patients are unable to speak for themselves."

"The resolution also encouraged people to draft "advance directives to communicate these important healthcare decisions."

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:30 PM

Truth ain't too high up on that lady's agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:37 PM

'Another protester, 12-year-old Micah Vandenboom, was there with her parents.

She held a sign that made clear her opposition to the president's health-care reform plans.

"Under Obama, everyone will get the same health care, that's socialism," she said. "It has failed in other countries, you know, like Europe."'

From a news article on the www. It's cute when a 12-year-old says it, but once ya hit the teen years, people expect a litttttle more, ya know?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 10:57 PM

Lady to Barney Franks at health care reform meeting..
"Why is Mr. Obama continuing to make Nazi policies and why do you support his Nazi agenda?"

Barney: "Being Jewish I will answer your question with a question, What planet are you from?
I may as well have a discussion with a dining room table as to try to discuss anything of reason with you."




Well Barney you are basicly facing a hypnotized person who has undergone a minimum of 50 hours of indoctrination via word picture associations and emotional pleas. It would take nearly half the time she spent watching Beck to deprogram her.

This country needs to educate everyone what programing does to people and exactly how this kind of hypnosis works.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 11:02 PM

CNN reports that the "controversial" provision for "end-of-life counseling" was placed in the bill by...wait for it...

Republican Senator Olympia Snowe of Maine (and another Republican whose name I regret I missed).

The provision had nothing to do with "death panels."

Not even the kind that private insurers might be accused of operating right now when they deny coverage for things like cancer.

It provided specifically for physician counselling of terminally ill patients (if they wished it) on the preparation of living wills and similar matters related to the end of life. It had nothing whatsoever to do with deciding who would live or die or when or how.

In the face of protests, the provision has apparently been dropped.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 12:48 AM

Ebbie--fascinating bit on Sarah's history.   Needs to be well publicized.

The "death panels" was nothing more than counseling every 5 years on end-of life issues. Any panel giving life or death decisions is in the fertile imagination of Rush, etc. and the brilliant minds who follow him (and are not called "dittoheads" for nothing.)

I wasn't going to contribute to this discussion at all, since I was a bit discouraged by the likely intellectual level of a thread in which the originator couldn't even be bothered to spell "Hitler" correctly in the title.

Having read it, I see I am still not needed. The wonderfully lucid explication of the position of sense, provided by John P especially, and echoed by some others, is all I could have said.

We are also forever indebted to John P for extracting from the champion of the Right, Doug R, the statement that he's proud to be a dittohead--believes 95% of what Rush says. That in itself is enough to tell us how useful a debate with Doug could ever be--if there were any doubt.   Doug would be a perfect source of comic relief if the subject weren't serious.

At any rate, I'll retire to the shadows, to other threads, or maybe even to something productive in Jan's eyes.

Before I go, I would only point out the spectacular success of the Bush Iraq propaganda campaign.   If the US public (or probably any public) is uneasy and looking for scapegoats, all you have to do for huge numbers is to indicate who to hate and fear.

It's just incredible that the hatemongers have settled on President Obama as the appropriate target. If he wants to handpick every member of every town hall meeting he attends from here on, this would be only prudent. And as for Rush, Sean and the other obscenely highly paid hatemongers (and the sheep who support them), they should stop whining about it.

And please spare us the feeble excuse: "they hate Obama just like liberals hate GWB". How many wars has Obama started with a propaganda campaign to assure support?

As for the 2nd Amendment defenders who feel they need to be armed at a town hall meeting: I wouldn't take any guns from them--aside from the assault weapons. (What they want above all is the excuse to say: "Obama's storm troopers took my weapon".) But I'd get their ID, especially address, and send them home. If they don't want to go home, monitor them closely the whole time they are near the town hall meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 12:52 AM

"death panels" were

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 02:44 PM

Ebbie: End of life planning is nothing new. I don't know when you were last (if ever) admitted to a hospital, but if you are, your receive counseling of a sort from the admittance clerk. I believe, by law, all hospitals must ask such questions regarding Living wills, designation of a person to make health decisions in the event you cannot make them, etc.

Big deal.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 02:55 PM

DougR:

THen how come Sarah Palin saw fit to hugely distort and falsify the scenario, and others of her ilk have blown it up into a bugaboo of monstrous, if totally delusive, proportions?


A


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 02:57 PM

Amos,

For the same reason that some tried to have Bush impeached for lying, and are now ignoring Obama's falshoods.

Political expediency.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 03:05 PM

"Ebbie, I don't know when you were last (if ever) admitted to a hospital, but if you are, your receive counseling of a sort from the admittance clerk. I believe, by law, all hospitals must ask such questions regarding Living wills, designation of a person to make health decisions in the event you cannot make them, etc." DougR

Not so, Doug. When were you last admitted to a hospital?   You fill out a form detailing your method of payment and a contact person. (This is in addition to the form that lists allergies and known health issues. You also sign a release agreeing that you know the risks inherent in the surgery.)

But "counseling"? You jest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 03:56 PM

Yesterday Obama had a conference call with 1,000 religious leaders in the United States, a unaminous decision to support health care reform as a moral imperative with a goverment option was pledged by all.

FOX NEWS reported that Obama had contacted the leftist religious base of the country regarding health care.

The left religious base?   The oligarchy is willing to re-lable the religious base for the sake of corporations. The religious base may soon see the light.



Methinks there may be hope.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 03:59 PM

The fake links in my posts are obviously a spam/adware bug,
but on whose end?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:06 PM

Glen Beck has not been on the set of his show all week.
THey have co hosts filling in for him.
Maybe they are trying to appease the sponsors they have lost.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:57 PM

I believe, by law, all hospitals...

Nobody really gives a crap what you believe, Doug (and you DO believe some real whoppers): what can you substantiate with evidence & fact?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 08:09 PM

Ebbie: Maybe they do things differently in Alaska. The last time I was admitted to a hospital? March 17, 2009. And yest I was asked if I had arranged for a health power of attorney person, a living will, etc., which I did over five years ago. The time to make these types of arrangements is well before you need a hospital, not when you do.

Amos: The kind of panel Sarah Palin was referring to, is the type described in HB3200 where allowance is made for such a panel of experts appointed by the president and operates similarly, if not exactly the way such a panel works with the NHS. I have forgotten the name of the panel with NHS, but I'm sure Kevin or someone can enlighten us. It goes by initials as I recall. The panel reviews medical decisions and determines whether or not the decisions will be approved and funded.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 08:11 PM

Greg, ole' buddy, your mother is calling! Better hurry home, there might be milk and cookies!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 08:39 PM

What, Dougie, what you say is allready a standard procedure in hospitals concerning living wills is now Obama trying to kill off old people??? This is a farce...

But nevermind that... What I have discovered about the right wing is that they love their lies... Yeah, they know they are lies but they are ***their lies*** and therefore should be cherished and tucked into bed every night and...

...don't let the bed bugs bite...

Oh, those cute little lies... Just look at them sound asleep in their beds... Aren't they cute...

Not!!!

They are still lies and they are not cute... They are lies...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 08:40 PM

Sarah Palin is one sick gal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 08:43 PM

"Sarah Palin is one sick gal."

If she was Canadian she would be treated without having to pay.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 08:58 PM

My Mom's been dead for some years, Doug, almost as long as you've been dodging, weaving, lying and evading on this forum.

Once again: what can you substantiate with evidence & fact?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 09:28 PM

Gee, I don't know, Greg, what would you like me to? If I did, would you believe it? I don't think so.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 08:11 AM

If I did, would you believe it?

Gee, Doug, I dunno. I've no prior examples to judge by.

If the shock didn't kill me, probably/

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:05 AM

Insurance companies are engaged in Corporate Fascism by igniting the hot-headed
response from the Republican "crazies".

Bush was the real dictator.

Republican smear campaigns have been shown to work in the past because Democrats
turned "wonky" and have refused to articulate their beliefs in ways people can understand them.

Smears work for Republicans. Throwing mud is more important than offering
constructive ideas or important American values such as health care for all Americans.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:49 AM

BTW, who is Hilter? (Hilter-skilter?)

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: SharonA
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 12:29 PM

Stringsinger, you beat me to that question. Maybe Hilter=Omaba.

Several of Glenn Beck's sponsors have removed their ads from his program in response to Beck's racism. Sargento, GEICO, Lawyers.com, Progressive Insurance, Procter & Gamble, SC Johnson, CVS, Best Buy, ProConAgra, Wal-Mart, RadioShack, and the pharmaceutical companies Roche and Sanofi-Aventis are the ones I found in a quick GoogleNews search of several articles, and the articles allude that there are more sponsors on the list.

Beck is off the air this week, and some speculate that FOX has suspended him, but apparently he's on a planned vacation, not on a forced one... or is he??? Time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Alice
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 02:13 PM

I emailed to a couple of advertisers whose products I use to let them know I will stop buying them because of their support of Glenn Beck's program.
One of the advertisers is Brita, and this is the email response I got.

Dear Ms. Flynn,

This is in response to your recent communication regarding a Clorox Company advertisement. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We very much appreciate your feedback and vigilance of broadcast television as The Clorox Company remains committed to quality broadcasting. We pride ourselves in being a responsible advertiser and have established strict standards for the selection of television programming. Per our standards, we do not advertise in programs that display exploitive sex or violence; treat ethnic, religious or political groups in a disparaging manner; present facts inaccurately or distort them to blatantly partisan advantage; and treat individuals or groups in a demeaning manner.

We understand that while Glenn Beck was a guest on the program Fox & Friends on 7/28/09, he made the statements that you wrote to us about. After a thorough investigation by our agency partners, we have confirmed that no Clorox Company advertisement aired in the above program where Glenn Beck made the specific comments you referenced. While we've had limited advertisements on the Glenn Beck Program in the past, the programming content at issue would not adhere to our programming standards and furthermore we will continue to rigorously scrutinize these types of shows for participation.

Today's television programming environment is extremely challenging for responsible advertisers. Our programming selections are proprietary and we are not able to share the details of these externally. However, The Clorox Company will continue to exercise special care in all program and station selection. We do not want to support programming that is in conflict with our programming standards.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact us.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Alice
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 02:26 PM

"Today's television programming environment is extremely challenging for responsible advertisers."

That means it is REALLY HARD to do an ad buy on FOX network without being connected in some way with programs that "present facts inaccurately or distort them to blatantly partisan advantage".

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 03:19 PM

I may have missed something. In what way is Beck a "racist"?

Equating Hitler, Stalin, and Marx with the President of the United States might suggest he's a lunatic, and insisting that the Day of Apocalypse is coming very, very soon, and that the two ideas are actually connected, might suggest he's an alarmist....

But a racist? What did I miss?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Alice
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 04:04 PM

I've listened to Glenn Beck's radio program as far back as 5 years ago. He has often referred to his conversion to Mormonism and although not all Mormons are racist, Beck's point of view about non-whites and multiculturalsim over the years I've heard his program has certainly reflected the point of view of the LDS founder "Brigham Young, the late Mormon leader who insisted his words were as good as scripture, derided blacks as "uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of ... intelligence." Beck definitely conveys the message of white superiority.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 07:29 PM

Please folks, you should not automatically dismiss the experiences and information that Doug R knows is true.

People like Sarah Palin and people who like Sarah Palin know what is true for them. They are people who feel threatened by progressives who seem to be more glib and intelligent. Getting and keeping power for folks like themselves IS A SCARY uphill battle.

When they lose jobs, homes and opportunities while seeing financiers who defrauded the country yet get bailed out along with 100 million dollar bonus' for their family, they GET PISSED and worried about what is happening to them and the country.


When they are told that (the old Reagan saw) "Big Govermnment is taking over the country" they naturally believe it.

BIG OBAMA GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN OVER:

The Banks
The Auto Companies
The Medical Industry
The right to life for fetus' and grandma
The Medicare Industry
The US MIlitary
The IRS
The Schools
The Church
The right to Pray
The Federal Reserve
The right to drill for OIL
The NSA Obama enemies list
The Weather
Their Guns and Ammo
The lives of all God Fearing believers by burying them in
National Deficit debt for generations... etc.

THESE POOR FOLKS BELIEVE SOME or ALL of this partly because, as silly as it sounds, it is all partly true when twisted and limited thinking is applied.

Civil war secession sounds good to them when they are promised pie in the sky freedom, prosperity and God's law for their own State without Federal Taxes.

In the absence of a willingness to be educated, people will follow the message that makes them feel GOOD or ANGRY or both.
Outrage, sadness, envy and every other powerful emotion is easier to embrace than hard study of facts and actual systems of corporate and goverment interaction.

It depresses me how gullible and easily led these people are when deluded by a guy who says he speaks for God or a Corporate Lobbying Group dressed in sheeps clothing.

Tell them the exact opposite of the motives of the people leading them by the nose and they buy it all, until they find themselves morally and monitarily broke.

Most Christian Evangelists do not know their cult bracnh of Christianity began in 1870 England. Most people in the US do not know that Corporate law making the company a Human Being with exceptional rights in the law was not an act by the founding fathers.

Educating oneself is a lonely process compared to the feel good Amen Choir or a Sarah Palin speech about Real Americans like themselves.
It feels good for an outsider to feel like an insider for a change.

The human condition is such that we all feel like outsiders since we have both solitary and herd behaviors in our tribal society evolution.

SO Barney, that is the planet they live on, its our planet. So don't be mean. The best thing you can do is let them feel happy about learning somthing so that they can start adding to that something until they actually know who Hitler was and what fascism did and that Skin heads and Corporations are the fascists of today.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:28 PM

"...corporations are the fascists of today".   Let's do everybody a favor and stop throwing the term "fascist" around so loosely.   It's a sure way to devalue it. And it really does mean something-- and it's not about corporations, except in a overheated imagination.

I do appreciate your bringing up the thread topic, Donuel, however, and your point about the method of propaganda in your first post is spot on--and harrowing.

However, I think we've moved on a bit now.

What we need now is for Alice to list all the corporations--if she has them--who sponsor Glenn Beck, so that we all can do what she has, and threaten to stop patronizing those who don't drop that sponsorship.

If all Mudcatters who are against Beck's hate-mongering put pressure on those sponsors--and talk to friends and neighbors about doing the same-- it will help.

There is already a list of about 20 who have dropped Beck--including even Walmart.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Alice
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:40 PM

There is a Facebook group to boycott Glenn Beck sponsors.

Facebook - Glenn Beck Boycott

The list of advertisers is at the Facebook page. It's too long to post here.

----Success influencing the advertisers listed below:

Companies who have STOPPED advertising on Glenn Beck, or who have pledged not to in the future:

VERIZON WIRELESS

FARMERS INSURANCE

WAL-MART

CVS CAREMARK

BEST BUY

TRAVELOCITY

ALLERGAN(makers of Restasis)

BROADVIEW SECURITY

RE-BATH

GEICO

LAWYERS.COM (LexisNexis)

PROCTOR & GAMBLE(this one is huge)

PROGRESSIVE INSURANCE

SC JOHNSON(never saw them on a list until now)

SARGENTO CHEESE

MEN'S WEARHOUSE

STATE FARM INSURANCE

ROCHE

CONAGRA FOODS(makers of Healthy Choice)

RADIO SHACK(they were 'tagged' at end of Magic Jack spots as a licensed retailer)

SANOFI-AVENTIS(pharmaceuticals)

ALLY BANK(GMAC FINANCIAL SERVICES)

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 12:02 PM

Nothing like a clueless, nameless, cynical contributor to tell us the truth, I always say.   When you become a member, perhaps you'll be worth listening to.   Sadly, not now.





On the other hand--- thanks, Alice for that link. I hope a lot of Mudcatters act on it. I sure will. The link may even be important enough in itself to deserve its own thread--since, as you and I have pointed out, pressure on sponsors does in fact work.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 12:08 PM

Thanks, Alice, for that link. I hope a lot of Mudcatters act on it. I sure will.   Just that link in itself makes this whole thread worthwhile.   Maybe the link is so important that it deserves its own thread. Since, as you and I have noted, pressure on sponsors does in fact work.

And now my response to the cynical nameless one can be deleted, along with the "message" of the nameless one itself--without any harm to comprehension of anybody coming along later.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 10:28 PM

Yep. I'll bet all of those corporations go out of business because Mudcatters refused to do business with them.

Actually, I think the letter Alice received is anything but one of a committal not to advertise on the Glenn Beck show. The letter writer must be a Democrat because he/she certainly knows how to put a spin on things.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Alice
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 10:45 PM

From Politico - advertisers who have responded to the boycott

"Now, Farmers Insurance can be added to that list, a Farmers spokesperson confirms to POLITICO.

"We advertise on Fox News Channel, which places our ads in the Network programming, and we ceased placing on Glenn Beck a week ago," said the spokesperson."

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 11:30 PM

lol Don't you ever embarrass yourself, DougR?

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: DougR
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 01:30 AM

Not that I can remember, Ebbie.

Folks that feel like boycotting, should do so of course. It's their right. I will be very surprised, however, if Glenn Beck is banned from television because some folks don't agree with what he did (whatever that was).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 09:55 AM

Racism is the reason that Obama is being vilified, pure and simple. There is a lot of resentment among bigoted white people that he was elected and they use any excuse
to exercise this. They offer all kinds of rationales for their actions.

Proof? There is nothing about these demonstrations that have anything to do with health care. It's trumped up.

Everyone wants coverage. It's an American Plan that's needed.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 12:30 PM

if Glenn Beck is banned from television because some folks don't agree with what he did (whatever that was).

"Whatever that was." Right on top of things as usual, aintcha, Douggie?

Of course lying probably wouldn't be recognized as a fault - or even recognized at all - by a regular practitioner, I suppose.-

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 11:43 AM

Granted calling all Corporations fascist is a weak hyperbole and is without a context that adds clarity.

People should learn of the literal worship of fascism among certain Republican circles, but it may be more than you want to learn.

Fascism is in fact alive and well today in certain American political circles going back 70 years.

In the 6 year researched book 'The Family' aka The Christian Mafia,
you will learn how under the guise of a reworked Christian ideology that over the last 70 years a Congressional group has held fascist principles dear as the means of acquiring and keeping power.
In fact the heros of this Republican Congressional movement are NOT limited to practitioners of fascism like Hitler but extreme despotes like Stalin Pol Pot or any other dictator who concentrated power in the most extreme ways.
While a Christian Prayer Breakfast of select Congressmen living together on C Street in Washington DC seems inocuous enough, this C Street collection of Congressmen have an agenda that believe that Jesus had special messages for them alone as powerful men and the bible was for the rest of the unwashed masses.

One can historicly track the advances of Corporate Fascism in this country to the true founding fathers of our military Congressional Industrial complex to the Congressmen who were proud to call themselves the 'Family'. They were secretive to the extreme.

Due to the Author of the book 'The Family' and the idiotic sexual behavior of 3 Rep. Congressmen who belong to the family and live at the C Street enclave, the relative secrecy and descretion of their organization is now in jeopardy.

The jig is up and the C street gang is now calling progressives the real fascists as a protectionist to deflect public opinion that could disgrace them and their "special thing".

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 12:45 PM

Ron Davies said something that struck me.

"And please spare us the feeble excuse: "they hate Obama just like liberals hate GWB". How many wars has Obama started with a propaganda campaign to assure support?"


To be fair I have to admit that Obama has continued 2 wars with all the prior interrogation techniques, logistic support and private contractor mercenary corporations that Bush Cheney employed. Yes a promise to close Gitmo has been amde but little else has changed.

Is he waiting on Holder indictments? Is he going to make a change if after a full year passes and no benefit is found? Is it that the new MIC war boss is the same as the old MIC war boss?

What has changed for the troops however is huge. Both pay and Veteran benefits have been increased in a way in which no prior Republican administration has ever provided. Even a new GI bill is introduced.
Some may find this as incredulous as John McCain voting against increasing Veteran benefits 9 times to 1. I know Republicans who still refuse to believe McCains horrendous voting record on Veterans.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 12:47 PM

damn these fake links still appear which makes me think the mudcat forum is infected with an advanced adware spam program.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 07:17 PM

Good work America,

While Glen Beck is back he made no mention of Hitler or Obama being a racist today.

He is limiting his diatribe with phoney experts in front of a blackboard or electronic deficit tree and sending the fear of god into every red blooded American patriot regarding...
the Debt crisis.
I remember Cheney saying deficits don't matter...oh well

The Obama - Hitler comparisons are still going full tilt at town hall meetings. They will be able to water that seed for years.





Too bad the Corporate think tanks never mentioned the debt crisis or all the corrupt American Financiers who took such a large amount of the US treasury and ripped off the world with worthless derivitives, that would pay for total USA health care for the next 20 years.
and the true Iraq war costs would... oh never mind, Its all blood and dollars over the dam. Being angry or whiney won't help anyone.

its my own fault for not having the patience to personally educate "the base" as to who was actually leading them by the nose into the slaughter and poor house. The think tanks and Billy Graham did a better job than me.

We still have great documentarians. 'Why We Fight, 'Sick Corporations' "Sicko" et al



Methinks AIG owes us free life insurance at the minimum. :>(

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Amos
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 07:21 PM

Great idea, Donuel!!

I wonder how much they could afford to pay off, as the Boomer generation approaches the gray zone between 60 and 90?



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:49 PM

Donuel, I think they intend to water it with blood. It is really scary.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 04:13 PM

*************************************************

Oh say can you see, Gl-en Beck on TV
What so proudly he hiels, for the right wing that's steaming
Whose broad pants and bright eyes, sell gross lies that's so sleazy.
O'er the FOX networks we watched, was so far right wing leaning
And the hatred's red glare, the bums bursting hot air
Gave proof from hired hacks, that they're all so damn fair.
Oh say does that Glen Beck fan or terrorist still rave
O're the air his hatred screams and he's scared of the brave














You know Glen? ...this is supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave but you are preaching so damn much fear and hate in order to motivate people to do violence against their own best interests and for your corporate bosses that you and yours are not brave, you are cowards. You are scared. You are scared of the people in this country believing they are this country...
The people know the machines are here to serve the people NOT the other way around like you and your boss wants. Nothing you say or support does a anything to reign in the free for all bankers who ravaged this country. You want all the things that will keep the bankers in charge. Progressives are the white blood cells inthis country and the unregulated banks are the infection.

You want this infection to grow.

Well buddy this land was founded on the principle that the people shall form a more perfect union. You are so insecure that you attempt to incite violence in the name of God or fighting Hitler or that the President is a racist, not you. Your brand of false patriotism dishonors the troops you want to send to more and more proxy wars.
You don't do a damn thing in the name of GOD, you do what you do in name of your lobbying group and Wall Street think tanks who got us into these perilous nights.

You are the coward that incites fights.


then runs to your gated community.

Subject: RE: BS: The Hilter=Obama campaign
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 06:35 PM

200, I thank you!