BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 06:40 PM

Q - did you read the item to which you linked with a cynical eye? The connection was at the instigation of Vick's lawyers. Plainly it was calculated with an eye to advantaging their client.

I see no indication of genuine remorse.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 06:29 PM

For me its just one more case of, he's done his time, but get that ball back in his hand and all will be forgiven, especially by some of those Eagles fans who claim they don't want him. The league the other day suspended Donte Stallworth for his deeds off the field, citing conduct unbecoming to the NFL. Citizen Vick has done his time....NFL player Michael Vick will do what, other than court mandated parole conditions? Other than the stipulations placed on Vick for the beginning of the season, that's all he gets? Its pretty weak to me, no offense to anyone here. Its not that I don't agree that he served his sentence, its that I think the act was sufficient for the NFL to say, thanks but no thanks. The fact that the only thing he can claim to be good at is football has no bearing on me. How many other people who have served time have been met with rejection when trying to rejoin society. We're supposed to forget that just because the man can hit his reciever in the end zone? You break the law, you go to jail. Upon release from jail in many ways is where you start your life all over again, not an easy thing. It's a lot easier when you are a millionaire and a celebrity. Why should we give him an easy pass?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 04:37 PM

Not only has he served his sentence, but the Humane Society of the U. S. will partner with Vick in developing programs aimed at eliminating dog-fighting. What more is demanded of him?
Humane Society Pacelle

Holding an inquisition and forcing him to beg and flagellate himself as he wanders the streets seems to be what Bridge and his ilk demands.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 03:34 PM

Quite the contrary, Q. No matter the prevalence of cruelty to animals (and in particular, dog-fighting, cock-fighting, badger-baiting, bull-baiting and bear-baiting) the activities are wrong and have no place in a civilised society. Nor do their proponents.

For some strange reason, sports stars are heroes and role models. Until Vick properly and convincingly demonstrates his understanding of his fault, and can be guaranteed to use any potential role model status to seek to exterminate these cruel "sport" he has no place in any public eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 01:49 PM

PoppaGator seems to be the only one who has said a few sensible words about Vick and dog-fighting (add cock-fighting, a similar activity).

These activities are prevalent from Florida to California and Hawai'i (and probably elsewhere), and are accepted if not supported by a group in our society.
Education, and social pressure, may eventually eliminate these activities, as they have been in western Europe and among most North Americans.
Demonizing this group does not help.

Dog-fighting was finally eliminated from some U. S. military posts in the 1930s; as a child my first pet was a pit bull that my parents obtained from the kennel at one of these posts.

Vick, now returned to society, must be allowed to earn a living, and return to the sport at which he is proficient and pays not only his way but that of a number of people associated with him and his team.
Some posting here would assign him (and all offenders?) to the gutter.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: MarkS
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 01:35 PM

Meanwhile lets continue to keep Pete Rose out of baseball. He actually, gasp, was found to be gambling.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 11:50 AM

Love the photo of the happy dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 09:49 AM

Hey, Philly fans are sickos, too... They will prolly give the sociopath a standing ovation ...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 09:00 AM

I can't judge Vick except based on the 'evidence' gleaned from what passes for 'news'. It's mostly sensationalist crap. He did something horrible and he went to jail. Whether he's truly reformed, nobody here can say. Even if he doesn't believe dog-fighting is wrong, if he doesn't engage in it, it's enough.

As for the dogs, it's seems they're getting the same judgment Vick is getting here. If I recall correctly, some of them turned up on The Dog Whisperer. Some animals get selected to be put down because nobody knows how to train them or it's not believed to be possible to find conditions in which they can live safely. People are afraid of the dogs, and up close that often means it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I do think the Eagles have likely made a mistake, because I don't think football fans are going to get over it this fast. The stands at their games are going to be interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 07:39 AM

Did you say the Philadelphia Beagles?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 07:20 AM

My problem with Vick is that I have no feeling from hearing him speak that he understands fully that he has a very messed up set of values... I mean, for him to say that he now understands that some folks really do care for their dogs is troubling... He ***should*** care about the lives of the dogs he hanged, tortured and killed...

I don't hear remorse except in that getting caught cost him some aggrivation... He is a sick man... We used to hear about how killers started out torturing and killing cats... Why is he any differnt???

He is a sociopath... Period...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: kendall
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 04:00 AM

Celebrity worship in this country has reached the point of pathetic. What the hell is wrong with people?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:39 PM

I am a great doglover, but, Rap, that is a pretty alarming thing that you state (at 0957 EST) . A number of dogs that will never be safe to interact with the public are to return, or have returned, it appears, to private ownership. I would cry over them (and it's a long time since I cried for anything other than a dog) as they died, but IMHO they should have been given euthanasia.

Vick, on the other hand, should not be given anything so painless.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:59 PM

I don't "follow" pro football. Vick is, to my mind, a slimy scumbag who should have had done to him and his companions what they did to the dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:57 PM

Excuse me, please.

Many were too badly injured or too vicious and had to be put down.

This is simply untrue. ONE had to be euthanized -- ONE. The others are alive and some have even been adopted, although most will never be social with anyone other than their owners. You can check out some of what I've said at Bad Rap.

I know what has happened to the "Vick dogs" -- a damned good friend of ours was named "special guardian" of the dogs by the Court, and she had them taken to a shelter in Utah and to Bad Rap.

Both PETA and the HSUS said they would ALL have to be put down, that they were too vicious to live....

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:41 PM

On the bright side, Brady looked okay last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:28 PM

I wouldn't want him on my property or on my TV. He's scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:26 PM

My apologies for all the typos... not havin a good day here.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:23 PM

Well, fact is, you are correct, to a point. BUT, there is also the fact that he committed these heinous crimes against dogs. Humans have laws to protect them from such atrocities... fellow humans who will stand up for them...

I realize that the subjugation of humans by their fellow man is ghastly, but, when it is perpetrated against an anmimal that has no entrencehed rights and is essentailly defenseless in any way, it is ALMOST more sickening and unforgivable.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:18 PM

" he has to have come to a realization that the enterprise in which he had been involved was seriously and objectively wrong."

I think what he has realized is that most people and the law consider that the enterprise in which he had been involved was seriously and objectively wrong."

He has shown no remorse.

As to his playing - as I said, I don't care.
And any parent who raises a child to view professional ball players as heroes needs an update. Drugs, prostitution, spousal abuse, even murder. Heroes???

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:10 PM

Various public figures have committed crimes against human beings without inspiring this level of vitriol. I can't hardly "defend" Mr. Vick, but I can't help but feel that the reaction is completely out of proportion.

ESPN this morning reported that reaction among Philadelphia Eagles fans is currently about 75%-25% negative. Of course, this is still less than 24 houts after the announcement. I'd be interested in seeing how opinion might swing after Vick pulls off a bit of on-field heriocs.

Dogfighting, not unlike cockfighting and bearbaiting, has been seen as acceptable "sport" in various human communities at different points in history. This kind of activity was quite popular in London 100 years ago and more, but of course not these days. People should understand that in some American communitities, urban and rural, white and black, but all sharing the critical characteristics of material and cultural poverty, this kind of actitity is seen as normal entertainment and a popular basis for gambling.

Michael Vick may be a millionaire today thanks to his athletic talents, but he still has "roots" ~ and friends ~ in the ghettoes in which he grew up. It was a group of such old friends who sought his help as an "investor" in their dogfighting ring. Excuseable? Of course not. Understandable? Certainly ~ but only to those willing to bring an open mind to the discussion.

The Humane Society of the United States is already very happy with Michael Vick's efforts in helping spread their message. They report that he is enabling them reach entire populations with which they would not otherwise be able to connect.

Much as some may enjoy demonizing him, Vick cannot possibly not be remoseful. Does his self-interest have something to do with this change of attitude? Of course! But after two years out of football, much of it sepnt in prison, he has to have come to a realization that the enterprise in which he had been involved was seriously and objectively wrong.

He knows that, no matter what he might achieve on the athletic field, he will be known for the rest of his life as a convicted dogfighter first and a football star second, and he seems prepared to spend the rest of his life addressing the issue. While there are many people who will never forgive him, he WILL be part of the public world for the foreseeable future; it should prove to be interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: gnu
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 01:48 PM

Well, yeah, but... second chance? I mean... I understand he was (almost) a man and did not need the coin and there WAS sommat wrong in his brain when he did what he did...

But, does he deserve a second chance? Is a dog entitled to his first bite?

Far as I am concerned... dog, maybe, him, no... fuck him. He was a principal party to death and suffering of the worst kind for sheer sickening "entertainment". He should be sent to the Rangers or the Seals or whoever and trained for the most dangerous military missions there are and dropped behind enemy lines becasue such a "fine" athlete might do a good job. With no canine backup.

What a misearable piece of shit... and I am not talking about Mikey.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:57 AM

Agreed, irishenglish, except that the fluff interview is coming this Sunday evening on the "60 Minutes" TV program and, judging from the previews, it's no tearjerker. In fact, Vick looks absolutely devoid of emotion when he says he should have stopped the dogfighting operation and that he didn't "step up".

Problem is, he not only didn't stop it but he participated in it gleefully, according to reports, laughing as he tortured the dogs.

Vick is certainly going through the motions of remorse, but so far he seems to be a really bad actor. Let's not forget that he didn't change his plea from "not guilty" to "guilty" in 2007 until all three of his dog-fighting-business partners changed their pleas and implicated him; until then he was lyin' and denyin'. I think he is still in denial about what he did and about how evil it was.

Maybe, just maybe, he'll finally get it when he has to look some kid in the face while signing autographs, and hear that kid ask him why he hurt all those dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:06 AM

Remember when the dog fighting stuff came out? How universally disgusted any reasonable thinking person reacted to the news? I remember lots of people in the sports talk radio world and ESPN (not that I listen or watch it much) reacting with equal disgust. I predicted however that when Vick was released, this was going to happen. Lots of calls from the same people who said "lifetime ban" for, he's done his time, let him play. Don't be surprised mid season, probably on Monday Night Football to see some fluff tearjerker interview with Vick proclaiming his mended ways. Its pretty much a given it will happen at some point. Its not that I don't believe in redemption, but I'm surprised that a team would actually pick him, and his baggage. We're used to drug offenses, dwi's and all that, but this was new. I actually had hoped that with his reinstatement would have come not a single offer from a team....that would have been refreshing. Just another day in the money driven sports industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:14 AM

A lot of people find getting a job more difficult once they have a criminal record; footballers should be no different.

I can't stand any form of cruelty.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:10 AM

The guy is a slime ball. But that has never prevented anyone from playing professional sports.
I did see pictures of the dogs. The younger ones were re-trained for adoption. Many were too badly injured or too vicious and had to be put down. Cruelty beyond belief. And why? He was raking in a fortune playing football.
Rapaire,
If it had been children he abused instead of dogs, would you still say "He served his time and should be allowed to play?"
I am not a football fan. Philly's decision won't cost them my support - they never had it in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:03 AM

Yeah, if he was a sex offender, he'd be hounded for the rest of his life. Get on with the hounding, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:28 AM

He "served" part of the sentence that was imposed by a judge as part of a plea agreement with this football star. Sometimes people refer to "serving time" in jail as "paying one's debt to society", but IMO the two concepts should not be confused.

Society does not get "paid" but, rather, cheated by this sort of legal wheeling-and-dealing. In reality, Vick will indeed owe a debt to society for the rest of his life, in the sense that he had misrepresented himself as a role model by putting his name on programs for children, and now must repay society by stepping up and being an exceptional role model for the rest of his life. Frankly, there is a large segment of society that doesn't think he's up to the task, and will be watching him VERY closely, ready to point out any slip-ups, for the rest of his life.

THAT is the price one pays to society for crimes such as the ones he has committed against helpless creatures. So, to answer your question, Rapaire: Yes, he should be punished and hounded for the rest of his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 08:58 AM

So he should be punished even after he's served his time?

What he did was reprehensible and evil, but should he continue to be punished and hounded for the rest of his life? (That was not an intentional pun.)

Subject: BS: Michael Vick, dog-fighter, is an Eagle
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 08:37 AM

Anybody wanna buy some Philadelphia Eagles football merchandise cheap? Lots of fans claim they're going to get rid of their Eagles stuff, in disgust over the signing of disgraced quarterback Michael Vick to the team yesterday. He's got a one-year deal with an option for a second year.

This is the reprehensible piece of slime who was convicted in 2007 of conspiracy and running a dogfighting ring, and served 18 months out of a 23-month sentence in a federal prison. Details of the horrible things that he put those dogs through can easily be found on the internet, and are too painful to describe here.

Beyond that, he's shown himself to have a bad attitude: he repeatedly failed drug tests while out on bail awaiting trial for the dogfighting and was reincarcerated; he had sex with a woman without telling her he had genital herpes and he gave her the disease (her lawsuite was settled out of court); he has flipped the bird at fans; he was a no-show when he was scheduled to appear before Congress to lobby for after-school-program funding. Not exactly a good role model for kids.

In addition, he hasn't played since 2006, he'll be one of FOUR quarterbacks on the team, and he won't be allowed to play in a regular-season game until mid-October. Based on the team's experience with Terrell Owens in 2004-2005, it seems obvious that history is going to repeat itself and that controversy over this player's off-field behavior will overshadow any success he might achieve on-field.

Fan reaction in Philly today is overwhelmingly negative. One local TV station's informal survey shows that 69% of respondents don't like it and only 22% do. This doesn't bode well for the coming season!

Back to the merchandising angle: What Philadelphian in his right mind would risk wearing a Vick jersey while walking down the street? Such a fan would be asking for trouble. Mark my words, we will hear news stories about Vick fans being beaten up and even shot in Philly. By the same token, I'll bet we'll hear about protesters against Vick clashing with fans at the football field.