Origin: The Old Triangle

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Aug 23 - 04:32 AM

I do not care for it either, but at least the words are clear

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Aug 23 - 03:19 AM

That version by Ian and Sylvia is a travesty of a great song.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,rjm
Date: 13 Aug 23 - 07:28 AM

it appears to be debatable

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 23 - 09:19 PM

It refers to the iron triangle the prison guards would use to summon the prisoners when it was wake-up time or mess time , or slopping out time. The song is set in Mountjoy Prison in Dublin which is on the banks of the Royal Canal. Brendan Behan wrote it and put it in his play "The Quare Fella" which is set in Mountjoy, the night before an execution.

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:35 AM

Surely the performance of the song is paramount, content not form ,joe offer

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 04:44 AM

Ian & Sylvia called this song "The Royal Canal." I like their recording, not sure I like their title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRL7pEMMIbU

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Nollaig O'Colmain.
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 08:33 AM

A 1938 Snooker / Billiards Trophy me eye lol. Anyone with an interest in the song will know it was written by Dicky Shannon of Dublin.

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Maggi Shannon-Mahoney
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 05:16 PM

My Father was Dickie Shannon's Brother, I remember hearing as a young child that uncle Dickie had wrote the song, It would be great to have a plaque on his grave. some people have a way with words regardless to whether they have money.

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 01:32 PM

i read in the irish times long time back that the song was to do with
a 1938? snooker or billard trophy that was erected on the banks of the royal canal hence the triangle but was to much to maintain so it was scrapped

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Deasún ÓSeanáin
Date: 25 Sep 15 - 03:28 PM

After this well put reply by Matthew to all the 'experts' in this thread my uncle Dickie Shannon is gaining ground. However my family background of lower working class outsiders with little clout or power makes it very difficult when up against the many followers of Brendan Behan one of Ireland's greatest playwright.
Brendan like myself learned Irish and that's a good thing to have in common.
Beidh an 'Sean Triantán'(Old Triangle) ag bualadh ar bhruach na Canála Ríogach le fada.

Deasún ÓSeanáin

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 04:07 PM

Brendan Behan recorded an LP of songs, I think based on a radio broadcast, which was released in 1960 in the USA on the Spoken Arts label, 760 LP, Brendan Behan Sings Irish Folk Songs and Ballads and in the UK on the Argo label, RG239LP, as Brendan Behan sings songs from The Hostage and Irish Ballads. The LP can be heard on You Tube Brendan Behan Sings; at 30:37 Behan introduces the song 'The Old Triangle' by saying "This other song was written by a person who will never hear it recorded because he's not in possession of a gramophone; he's...he's pretty much of a tramp."

This matches very closely the account given above by Tom Neary about Dickie Shannon as the author of the song, and it certainly confirms that Brendan Behan didn't claim to have written it himself, nor do there seem to be any grounds for attributing it to Dominic Behan.

I know that both Brendan and Dominic Behan enjoyed sowing confusion about questions of song authorship - I certainly was misled by Dominic's mischevious attribution of The Twang Man to Zozimus! - but Tom Neary's story and the account given by Brendan Behan's biographer Michael O'Sullivan that Behan ordered the royalties from a radio broadcast of the song to be paid to a Dick Shannon all look like strong and consistent evidence in favour of Dickie Shannon as the writer.

It would certainly be a great idea to mark Dickie Shannon's grave in Manchester with a plaque.

Matthew

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 08:14 PM

Any newcomer opening this thread in reverse chronological order should note that Desi C's claims in recent days are plainly wrong, as Martin has tried to explain. This will be blindingly obvious to anyone who has read the whole thread (and the thread for which Martin provided a link).

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 01:38 PM

RE MartinRyan
My account above is as correct a version of the origins of this song as is possible to get. Frankly I'm amazed at the sheer ignorance of a few posts on here. You can check my version with any historical account of Behan's life or with any Irish musical Scholar, though none come higher rated than my good self.
With references to those who claim The Auld triangle is a term for human sexual organs, Brendan was a man of great humour but he would have certainly laughed at that, it os of course total nonsense. Soodlums is also wrong re The Trisoner. Behan wrote the song long before The Prisoner was even conveived, where on earth they got that from is a mystery!

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 05:17 PM

Not so, I'm afraid - see earlier posts re Behan's own statements.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 04:22 PM

It's written by Brendan behan, an autobiographical account of his imprisonment in Dublin's much loathed Mountjoy Jail on terrorist offences, originally sentenced to death it was later comuted to a life sentenced then pardoned under a general amnesty. The song was used for his play The Quare Fellow. The triangle in question hung on the prison wall next to The Royal Canal, it signalled the days events from waking up, to slopping out, mealtimes and bed time, A very hated sound

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Deasún ÓSeanáin
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:08 PM

My uncle Dickey Shannon has been named as the author of this song and I have being trying to contact Tom Neary about this matter. My father Thomas Shannon told me as far back as the 1950s that Dickey had written it. Dickey is buried in Manchester. It would be nice to see a plaque erected indicating him as the author. It would do something for the family that has suffered so much from capitalism, war, state oppression and emigration.
My email is [e-mail].

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 10:11 AM

Why on earth should a flogging triangle be more likely to go "jingle-jangle" than a dinner triangle - which, as others have noted, was once a familiar method calling men to their meals?

Maybe Behan's autobiographical "Borstal Boy" can shed light on the whole matter.

My copy has unfortunately submerged from sight.

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: mayomick
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 08:56 AM

Fergie, I asked on another thread if the Old Triangle was originally a flogging triangle : they were once used in British prisons.If there was also a triangle at Kilmainham Jail , the suggestion that the purpose had something to do with the transportation of goods along the Royal Canal doesn't stand up . The song Moreton Bay mentions triangles btw: "Captain Logan had us mangled all on the triangles of Moreton Bay. "
Warning :
Another Mayomick conspiracy theory /fake folk possibility :
My very tentative suggestion if it was a flogging triangle : The Mountjoy prisoner who wrote Auld Triangle song had once heard the song Moreton Bay .

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: mayomick
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 08:42 AM

Martin ,Sorry , I've been galloping around with the old nine-pounder a bit too much recently,and just saw your post of over a year ago. I don't hear the tune of
Moreton Bay being closer to Youghal Harbour than it is to The Old Triangle.
Youghal Harbour:
http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/sound/youghal_harbour_eddie_butcher  
Moreton Bay :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJEawKILe_A 

Boolavogue :

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 08:12 AM

As outlined earlier in the thread, Brendan acknowledged the man from whom he learned the basic song.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 20 Mar 15 - 07:48 AM

It was written by one of my favourite Irish men Brendan Beham. If one needed qualifications to be an Irish hero, then Behan was over qualified. Born to fiercely nationalist parents, his Brother Dominic was one of Eire's greatest songwriters. Brendan joined the IRA and was arrested on his first failed mission. Was sentenced to death later commuted to Life, then released under a general amnesty. But while in the despised Mountjoy jail he developed his love for writing. Including the only song credited to him (not as some believe by his brother) The Auld triangle, written for his play The Quare Fella, (about a prisoner awaiting his execution) and surely about his own experiece of Prison. He was also a great raconteur and became a darling of chat shows, in Ireland, England but mostly in America and Canada and was outrageusly critical of Irish religion and government. Heavily alcoholic too and a devout womaniser. His wit was much feted and often quoted.
My favourite quote is on a handwritten note sent to a bar owner in my home town in Ireland, under a framed picture of Behan in the tiny bar it says "fellas, I've just arrived in Canada and saw a sign saying 'drink Canada Dry' I'm about to do my feckin best!" Sadly the drink took him at the height of his fame

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Patrick
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 03:59 PM

The double entendre in the song is blindingly obvious to me. I love this song for it's not-so-sly bawdiness most of all.

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:20 PM

Lovely thread, to which I can contribute very little! On our one and only visit to Dublin a few years ago we walked up out of the the middle of Dublin one evening past the pub called the Auld Triangle. We didn't stop there as I'd been invited to play in a session just round the corner in a pub on what was, I think, the north circular road. I can't remember the name of the session pub but we had a wonderful evening there.

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 07:38 PM

Brendan Behan copyrighted his play, which included his verses of the song. My understanding is that he gave a once-off payment to Dickie Shannon for the rights to the song, rather than "any royalties" as mentioned above. At the time, neither visualized the song becoming so popular.

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 05:57 PM

"Sullivan, said that Brendan demanded that any royalties should go to Dickie Shannon, as he wrote the song"
This was confirmed in an article in The Irish Times a couple of weeks ago - it was part of an interview with an agent of Behan's.
Can't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure it said that Behan instructed the interviewee to send a cheque to an address in Inchicore, where Dickie Shannon was living in at the time - it stuck in my memory because that is where some of my family lived
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 05:17 PM

My Mother is Dickie Shannon's sister. She is now 87years old, she along with Dickies surviving children know Dickie wrote the song. But even though they were brought up in poverty when I asked about this there answer was "what we never had we never missed" that saying they got from there dad Dickie I think that sums him up.

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 03:48 PM

Mick

The Boolavogue tune is that of Youghal Harbour (and Sweet Omagh Town, amongst others). To my ear, The Galway Shawl is very close to The Ould Triangle - but different from Youghal Harbour . There are similarities but a deaf man on a galloping five-pound horse could probably still tell them apart!

Regards

p.s. Its always said that Boolavogue was originally sung to a different air and then moved to Youghal Harbour , for, I think, an early Feis Ceol competition. Thing is - I've never heard anyone identify the original air used!

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 03:12 PM

I have only heard Moreton Bay sang roughly to the tune now used for Boolavogue . You hear the similarity between Galway Shawl, The Ould Triangle and the tune now used for Boolavogue , do you Martin?

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 01:34 PM

Well......

I've only heard (and sung) Moreton Bay to variants of Youghal Harbour - which is the air (now) used for Boolavogue, amongst other well known songs. To my ear, The Galway Shawl and The Ould Triangle are closer to each other than to Youghal Harbour .

Regards

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 01:06 PM

I have only ever heard it to Galway Shawl melody.
likewise Moreton Bay..........Keith

I find it interesing that Moreton Bay and the Auld Triangle have the same or similar airs - (Boolavogue does as well btw) . The triangle was used in prisons throughout Britain and its colonies for the flogging of prisoners : "And Captain Logan he had us mangled upon the triangles of Moreton Bay".

I've suggested to people in Ireland that the original triangle referred to in the song may once have served this purpose. I have yet to find anyone who agreed with me !Any opinions from mudcatters?

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Sean
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 12:19 PM

I knew Dominic Behan quite well.Although he wrote some very fine songs ,I never heard him claim The Auld Triangle. Brendan was always considered to be the Author.

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 May 13 - 10:18 AM

I heard the same story as Big Tim; I heard it from a cousin of Brendan Behan's who used to share a house with him. Didn't hear about his signing the royalties to the actual writer - bless him. A decent man.

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,John
Date: 20 May 13 - 04:40 AM

I distinctly remember old westerns where the triangle was used to inform outriders or those working in faraway parts a ranch that a meal was ready to be served. I know this is Hollywood, but a big old open triangle is a pretty easy and effective way to get sound to carry distances.
I see nothing strange in Bert's comment either, he was probably stating where he first hear the song, and nothing to do with authorship. Not sure that it would have mattered much to him and I don't think he was a man to use two or three words when one would do.

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:28 PM

Dennis, I referred to it as just a song to avoid any unnecessary argument between two contributors to the thread. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if they are misinformed? So thank you for highlighting your passion for my granddads song, I genuinely never realised it meant so much to so many people. Dickie would have found that very odd indeed, but would have been very pleased too!

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:51 PM

Its not "just a song", it's a very good and meaningful song, at least!!

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 02:29 PM

Sminky...May i just add that the word hearsay implies nothing more than general gossip. I prefer the word anecdotal, as it describes precisely the situation we are discussing. Verbal evidence has been given by a number of people as to who the real author is, but it probably isn't worth the paper it's printed on??? lol! With that in mind, please don't get into a row about this subject, as it is only a song. As i've said on a number of occasions, It never enriched Dickie while he was alive, and was never that important to him in all fairness. It was if you like, a simple gift to his friend and drinking pal Brendan...FACT!!!

I'll leave it there i think?

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 06:17 AM

"Facts are facts, talk is cheap."

No need for such 'talk' - whoever you are.

I mentioned Bert Jansch's remark because when trying to establish the facts, one has to consider ALL the evidence, positive as well as negative.

For what it's worth, I happen to believe that Dicky probably DID write the song, but that is my belief - it is not based on fact.

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 06:04 PM

Hi Sminky,
The Lyrics of the Auld Triangle were copyrighted by Brendan Behan and Theatre Workshop in 1956 Fact
Dominic Behan published a songbook containing 100 songs called "The Singing Irish in 1967, mostly self-penned. Fact
Dominic published another songbook in 1973, called "Ireland Sings", containing another 100 songs. Fact
The Auld Triangle does not appear in either book. Fact
Bert Jansch, on his 2006 CD "The Black Swan" credits the song to Brendan Behan. Fact.
Facts are facts, talk is cheap.
Both Dicky and Brendan could not have envisaged how popular the song would become, or they may have made a better arrangement, Brendan being more interested in the Play than the song.

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Tom Neary
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:06 PM

Sminky...I thought you might come back with that line of doubt, so will only say that you are free to believe what you like, but the truth is there for all to see, should they wish to. As was quoted in an earlier post, Behans biographer Sullivan, said that Brendan demanded that any royalties should go to Dickie Shannon, as he wrote the song. That is not hearsay, but hard evidence gathered by Sullivan, otherwise i doubt he would have printed it. So obviously the proof is there somewhere? This was also confirmed in the same post, that someone else in a position to know, had received the proof of authorship from Brendan. Exactly how one would go about gathering such evidence, hearsay or otherwise, would i imagine be very difficult at this stage of the game? But if anyone benefited from it's popularity, it certainly wasn't Dickie or his family. Most of his children ended up in care, due to the dire poverty they were living in. Further, I should imagine that Brendans estate have been the main financial beneficieries. But as i stated in another post, Dickie would never have been aware of song rights or royalties, and he most certainly could never have afforded a lawyer to do it for him. He wrote it for a friend and the song is now a part of Irish tradition, which Dickie would have loved. He deserves his due for that at least!!! It's a shame that others don't want to give it to him, even after almost 60 years...

As a bynote...Please understand the point of my posts. It is not my intention to try and garner any financial advantage from Dickies song, but to try and get the credit placed where it truly belongs...With Richard Patrick Shannon (1916-1975), of Wellington Street, Dublin. Yes! A tramp, a drinker, a gambler and a rogue, but never a liar! Dickie detested liars above all else. He always said "a robber was honest when compared to a liar. A liar was the lowest of the low, as they would get you hanged for nothing more than malice"! Besides, Brendan freely admitted who the writer of the song was, not something he would readily have done had it been otherwise, so that should be good enough for both you and Bert Jansch in my humble opinion. If it is not, then so be it!? As for Dominic trying to claim any form of authorship, he should and probably did have knowledge of the songs true author, but it would hardly have been to his advantage to let it be known, would it? He freely plagiarized others work for his own benefit, so why should this be any different?? So less said is probably soonest mended on that score. The upshot of all this hearsay evidence as you choose to call it, is that it is still evidence that Dicky gave Brendan the song. Until some actual contrary proof is unearthed, then we are stuck with the only evidence available to us, hearsay or not??

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 05:54 AM

Gentlemen,

It would have been disingenuous of me not to pass on what Bert told me - albeit hearsay evidence.

Tom - it was right and proper for you to relate what your grandfather told you - albeit hearsay evidence.

It would be wise to remember that there is a big difference between hearsay evidence and 'fact'.

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Tom Neary
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 12:25 PM

Sminky, Dominic Behan may very well be singing it on your recording, many have, but he definitely did not write the song. If Bert Jansch told you he did, then he has been sadly misinformed. Please take meselfs advice and visit the other thread linked by Ryan Martin, where you will find the real author of the song and it's meaning in the context of the play. You will also find a few other bits of information that may be of interest to you? Of course that doesn't mean that Dominic didn't add on a few verses later, but the basic song as we know it was written by Dickie Shannon...Fact!

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 12:10 PM

Dominic didn't write the song. He wrote many fine songs but not this one. As there was no generally accepted author then, Dominic claimed it as he did with many 'trad' songs, a common practice. Barney McKenna once said that Dominic would copyright the bible!

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: meself
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:00 AM

Check the thread that Ryan Martin linked to, three or four posts up.

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 06:26 AM

"I have a recording of Dominic Beehan singing this and the sleeve notes state thaat he was the author of the song not Brendan. Brendan probably nicked it to use in his play or Dominic may have written it specially for the Quare fellow."

Bert Jansch told me that Dominic wrote the song. Bert heard Dominic singing it in an Edinburgh pub and this formed the basis for Bert's version.

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jul 12 - 01:58 PM

Naaah - they're Eoin Goals - truly Gaelic! ;>)>

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jul 12 - 01:44 PM

I think all these Goals referred to above must be Own Goals!

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jul 12 - 01:06 PM

Click here for the thread GUEST TomNeary refers to.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Old Triangle
From: GUEST,Tom Neary
Date: 30 Jul 12 - 01:00 PM

I have posted the real explanation of what the Auld Triangle actually was on one of the other threads related to the song...The Auld Triangle was not in fact anything to do with the Joy itself, but was in fact the sound of the metal triangles used by the working boats on the Royal canal. They would make deliveries to the warehouses that ran on the banks opposite the prison, as a warning of a delivery or pick up. These deliveries were at six in the morning and six in the evening, so gave the men inside an idea of the time. Within the context of the song, it also represented a link to the normality of the outside world to the prisoners incarcerated within.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Old Triangle' Song
From: Fergie
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 03:24 PM

The triangle on display in Kilmainham Goal, is not the one from Mountjoy Goal. It is the original one from Kilmainham Goal, I was there today and checked it out.
Fergus

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Old Triangle' Song
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:14 AM

"he always sounds a bit of a rum character from stories. Donleavy tells this tale about Behan coming to see him in London, with a story about an American magazine that wants him to write something, so can he borrow JPD's typewriter?

Donleavy says no, you just want to pawn it to go boozing. Behan cheerfully admits that is indeed the case, and they sit down together friendly as puppies."

My favourite story is about when The Hostage was about to be premiered on Broadway. During rehearsal, Behan asked the director if he could make a sign for the set (the play is set in a whorehouse) which would say "bless this house" in Irish. He explained to the director that every house in Ireland would have one of these on the wall, even a house of ill repute, so the director agreed to this nice little touch of authenticity.

It wasn't till several weeks into the run that the director found out what "Pog mo thoin" actually meant. And he was furious.

Back OT: I've seen the Old Triangle at Kilmainham gaol as well, and was strangely moved...