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Tiocfaidh ar la etc.

Martin _Ryan 16 Jul 99 - 05:07 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 16 Jul 99 - 06:44 AM
Wolfgang 16 Jul 99 - 06:55 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 16 Jul 99 - 07:05 AM
Martin _Ryan 16 Jul 99 - 07:56 AM
Martin _Ryan 16 Jul 99 - 08:18 AM
Roddy 16 Jul 99 - 03:18 PM
Martin _Ryan 17 Jul 99 - 06:43 PM
gargoyle 18 Jul 99 - 12:12 AM
gargoyle 18 Jul 99 - 12:32 AM
The Shambles 18 Jul 99 - 05:55 AM
Big Mick 18 Jul 99 - 02:48 PM
Legal Eagle 18 Jul 99 - 06:22 PM
Philippa 18 Jul 99 - 06:58 PM
Big Mick 18 Jul 99 - 07:22 PM
Sheye 19 Jul 99 - 09:26 AM
Philippa 19 Jul 99 - 03:15 PM
Realist 19 Jul 99 - 10:01 PM
Wolfgang 21 Jul 99 - 12:49 PM
Big Mick 21 Jul 99 - 01:19 PM
Philippa 21 Jul 99 - 02:57 PM
Realist 22 Jul 99 - 09:12 PM
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Subject: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 05:07 AM

A chairde

An bhfuil aon seans go bhféadfaimís an foram seo a fhágaint saor ó slogans a bhaineann le na Provos agus a leithéidí? Dar ndóigh, tá sé de cheart ag gach éinne a dhearcadh féin a choimeád faoi fadhbanna an tír seo ach, dar liomsa, níl sé oiriúnach slogans mar sin a úsáid go rialta I gcomhthéacs a bhaineann le cheol. Ní le lucht náisiúntach amháin a bhaineann an cheol - ná le lucht na haondachta ach comh beag.

Beir beannacht

Note:
The above is a gentle plea to Mudcatters to drop the routine use of slogans associated with armed groups in Northern Ireland (Republican, as it happens - but the principle should apply equally, of course)

Regards


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 06:44 AM

HEAR HEAR.


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 06:55 AM

Martin, Your plea came a bit too late to change the title in my 'Republican songs' thread. Which terms could replace 'Republican'?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 07:05 AM

I'd suggest 'sectarian', which is currently in vogue with UK/Irish politicians and the media.


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 07:56 AM

The standard word for many years was "party songs" In an onld sense of the word. Borderline cases are sometimes referred to as "toe-tappers"! Figure that one out!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 08:18 AM

"foot-tappers" - not "toe-tappers". And "old" not "onld".

Regards


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Roddy
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 03:18 PM

Foot / Toe tappers appears to derive from the practice of tapping a singer's foot/toe discretely if he appeared about to sing a song which might not be welcome in "mixed" company. I always considered this a very courteous way of avoiding unnecessary offence. Roddy


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 06:43 PM

Friends

Some time ago a request came to this forum for the words of the Horst Wesell Lied. Despite reservations about the song's associations with the SS, the request was dealt with efficiently and courteously. This is as it should be.
Suppose that request (or the reply), had ended with the slogan "Sieg Heil!". Would our reaction have been the same?

With that thought, I leave you - for good.
My thanks to Max, Dick and Susan for three years of an excellent, efficient and inclusive site. I'm sorry to see it abused.

Regards

p.s Do na Gaelgóirí: Ní cheart dúinn ligint do dhaoine ár teanga a úsáid mar súinteas (badge - nílim cinnte faoin focail) poblachtánach. Is linn ar fad an teanga binn sin.
Slán.


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: gargoyle
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 12:12 AM

While it is possible for the BBC to control your content

And it is possible for the FCC to control USA content....

It appears beyond the control of both the BBC/FCC to control the world-wide content of the Internet....

YOU - YOURSELF are the best judge of what is offensive....no doubt the "Mud" is diminished by your absence....however, better "surfing" elsewhere ...someplace the perspective aligns with yours.


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: gargoyle
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 12:32 AM

I was the one that asked for "Horst Wessel" -

NOW....you have something to kick ....

Seig Heil!!!!

You can come back!!!!

I SINCERLEY....encourage you to read.....Der Vorleser it may help you come to grips with the "re-brith" the world is currently experiencing. It is a short simple novel published in English as "The Reader." It deals with the troubles you are experiencing.

All knowledge MUST be open...it is in the darkness that the mold is spawned.....Can ANYONE,....today....after reading THOSE lyrics deny the EVIL that was apparent in the earliest of days?????

Where else could they have gone to ask such a question and have RECIEVED an answer.

I left my name off because I was humiliated to ask such a question and have my name associated with it.

PLEASE STAY...sincerely....it is NECESSARY to have a world wide forum such as the "Mudcat" where songs (which are the conscience of the people) can be FREELY exchanged and discussed.

If you have a poweful commitment....(and you do) stay and discuss...and share your view....it is one of the few "SAFE" places on the globe that you can do so....(even at the the turn of the new millenium.)


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 05:55 AM

Gargoyle.

This is the only time I will take the trouble to answer anything post by you.

I think the above is a perfect example of why Martin and many others would not want to stay here.

Playing 'silly' games with peoples real fears and emotions, saying things like "All knowledge MUST be open" and "I left my name off because I was humiliated to ask such a question and have my name associated with it".

To cap it by saying the very words that Martin feared to see is unforgivable. What was the point, other than to be offensive?

You do not have any idea what this place is for. Please go where your 'talent' will be appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 02:48 PM

Martin,

I am saddened and disappointed in your decision. I read your posts, in Gaelige and English, understood and chose not to answer as I respect you and your opinion. It was my post that you had problems with to begin with. I do however disagree, as you know. One thing I have consistently, and in every thread on this subject, brought up is that in this community we can tackle subjects as difficult as this and do so in a civilized and respectful way. You may think me an uninformed or naieve person for this, but let me share why I persist. I have long believed this Forum to be a very special place, a crucible for discussion that could be a model for understanding of different positions. What problem anywhere is a better test of that than the Troubles. And if you were to read the posts by jO_77 and Penny, as well as the responses, you would see what I am talking about. I have purposely been very open on my positions to evoke responses, and those responses, for the most part, have been productive. Now I find Gargoyle to be very abrasive in his views, but I understand his position very well. I am offended by his use of Sieg Heil, but I think that was his intent. He challenges us to not stick our head in the sand, not hide from controversy, but rather to embrace it and subject our views to it. But I would respond to his reference to certain opinions that he feels have relevance by saying that a broken clock is still correct twice a day.

And so Martin, if you truly have left us, I am deeply saddened. We are a community that embraces not just the technical aspects of our craft, but the human conditions that spawn the music, and which embraces as friends those of different stripe that come here. I have always found you to be an important part of our community. But if this is what did it, then I guess, while I am disappointed at your leaving, I bid you well and hope you find another community to serve your needs.

Sla/n leat,

Mi/chea/l Mo/r


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Legal Eagle
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 06:22 PM

Martin, did you intend to exclude others from understanding you by posting in a language which is not widely spoken? If so I do not understand why.


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Philippa
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 06:58 PM

I was bothered by Martin's decision to start this thread in which he asked people to refrain from using the slogan "tiocfaidh ár lá", by addressing us in the Irish language. It seemed to me that by choosing to make his complaint in Irish, he was charging the Irish speakers on the forum with responsibility for using this "triumphantalist" * slogan. As it happens, it is only on this subject that I have seen Martin write in Irish. I am one of a few contributors who sometimes writes in Irish in my Mudcat postings, and none of us has been discussing political matters in the Irish language. The use of a standard phrase is not necessarily an indication that the writer knows much of the language apart from the phrase; I certainly know people with very little Irish that like to use the phrase "tiocfaidh ár lá".

Later on in this thread, Martin includes a plea in Irish not to let the language be identified as being a language of the Irish Republican movement; as he rightly says, it's a language for anyone, of any persuasion. Perhaps that was his motive in writing in Irish in the first thread - to use the language to express a counter view to the republican movement.

*"Tiocfaidh ár lá" is a translation of "Our day will come". I put "triumphantalist" in quotation marks because in the context of Irish politics the word is more often used as a critical description of Orange Order parades.

Martin has helped many many Mudcatters with lyrics and song information. I hope he will not be long absent. And I hope he has a great time on his sailing trip next month.

I'm not adverse to SOME political discussion on Mudcat, but the Irish national question has recently spurned an excessive number of threads. I do know of another forum which is devoted to discussion of the peace process in N Ireland which I can recommend to Mudcatters: Irish Times forum which is part of the Path to Peace website


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 07:22 PM

Well said, Phillipa, great post as usual. The language is the language of the Irish. Being Irish does not imply being or not being Republican. As I referenced earlier in another thread, one need only look at the success of Mea/scoil Feirste (Belfast Secondary School which uses Gaelige as its primary teaching medium) to see that. This is a school which has kids from all backgrounds as students. They are united in their love of the language of their people. And the students from this school score far above average on their boards. They are Catholic and Protestant, Orange and Green........they are Irish.

One other distinction that is important to make is that being of a Republican persuasion does not necessarily make one a supporter of the IRA and the various splinter factions. Many Irish people support the reunification of the North with the Republic, but do not support the IRA. Many Irish Americans share this sentiment.

One last distinction. The violence perpetrated on behalf of the struggle is oft times assumed to be perpetrated by "the IRA". There are a number of splinter groups, in addition to the Provisional IRA. The senseless act of brutality that was committed at Omagh was carried out by one of these. This distinction is not offered for any other reason other than helping to understand the situation.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Sheye
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 09:26 AM

Philippa, thank you for translating the post for those of us that don't speak the language.

Sheye


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Philippa
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 03:15 PM

My English ain't so good; for example shouldn't 'spurned' be 'spawned'? No great complaint with Mick's comments; I'll mention that we tend to use the term "Republican" for the more militant element and "Nationalist" as a broader term. But even looking at Irish "Republicans", the Provisional IRA has maintained its ceasefire for close to 4 years with only occasional lapses (there is a serious problem of punishment beatings, but part of the solution is getting a more widely accepted police force)so it does seem they do genuinely want to try to work through politics rather than continuing a long war.


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Realist
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 10:01 PM

Lest anyone get carried away by excess enthusiasm for the bridge-building properties of Meánscoil Feirste, it is not "Catholic and Protestant, Orange and Green", Big Mick. It is Catholic, though not under the control of the Catholic Church, and Green in that it draws all its pupils from the Nationalist community. It has no Protestant pupils at all. Would that it were otherwise. Realist


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 12:49 PM

Martin,
I'm going to miss you dearly in case you stick by your decision to leave.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 01:19 PM

Well, Mr. Realist, things must have changed in the two years since I spoke with the headmaster. At that time they had, and more importantly, encouraged participation on the basis of a love of the language of the land. It is not a Catholic institution in any way, shape or form. I was informed at the time that there were any number of students that were Protestant. And if there are no Protestant pupils, my question would be "why not?". Where one says their prayers has nothing to do with being Irish. If, as you say, it is not a tool for bridging the divide, then it is because of lack of use, not because it is not there to be used.

Mick


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Subject: Meánscoil Feirste
From: Philippa
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 02:57 PM

What a legacy Martin left us with his thread title; every time we answer a message on this thread we bring to the fore the very slogan he asked us not to use!
I don't know what the student composition of Meánscoil Feirste is, but I wouldn't expect it to be diverse, regardless of the school's ethos. It's a small school and the students have to have Irish BEFORE they start the school. Irish isn't offered in many primary schools in N Ireland. Basically, the children would have to have Irish-speaking parents or have attended an Irish-medium primary school, or have gone to school in the Irish republic. It's far more common for Catholics and/or Nationalists to opt for their children to learn Irish. Also, there is considerable de facto residential segregation in Belfast and the school is located in Catholic and Nationalist area of the city.


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Subject: RE: Tiocfaidh ár lá etc.
From: Realist
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:12 PM

Thasnks, Philippa, I take it from your comments thatyou are acquainted with the situation in Belfast at forst hand. More than can be sayed for some contributors. The words of anyone with a point of view to advocate must be taken with a picnh of salt. The actual figuresm for Meánscoil Feirste are in the public domain in Northern Ireland. Just write to CCEA, Clarendon Dock, Belfast, N. Ireland. Realist


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