Outlook on England

Subject: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 10:55 AM

I came across this this website recently plus they have a 'shop'
at Amazon.co.uk. (some amazing music to had here, Nick Drake, Nic Jones, Billy Bragg)

Does anyone have any information or in-sights into this organisation, in other words are they alright or has the co-opting of folk music by the far -right, gone further than I thought.
Massive thanks in advance.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
uppity "Indian" chick

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 11:10 AM

I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

Just look at the "Audience" watching the "Battle of the Knights" - the chap wearing the flag of St George as I have seen football hooligans do so.

The fact that Billy Bragg's music is available might be a well thought out 'smokescreen'.

(Half Welsh, half Irish-American) Bryn

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 11:24 AM

Bryn, that picture was one of the things that bothered me about the site. One of the things I always check, when possible, is the links page on any given site, who the links are can be a guide to the tenor of the website. The links on the Outlook on England site seem to be, generally, business oriented, nothing overt, like the BNP or Justice for England, that, of course, doesn't mean a thing.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
(1 quarter Welsh, 1 quarter Scots, half Mohawk)
oh....and uppity as well *LOL*

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 11:25 AM

Isn't that a 'slight' over reaction Bryn ? ONE guy at a St Georges Day free day out with a Cross of st George flag makes it a BNP Event ?

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 11:32 AM

Ollie, like you I'm inclined to be wary. My guess is that this site has been set up by a bunch of well meaning chauvinists who don't realise that nationalism is a spent force. However, they look precisely the sort of organisation the BNP would try and climb aboard, covertly or overtly.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 11:35 AM

Lead
The Birmingham St. Georges Day Committee are very careful about who they get involved with. They have been approached by the BNP, in the past, and they (the committee) sent the BNP packing in no uncertain terms.
Show of Hands (Steve Knightley, Phil Beer and Miranda Sykes) appeared at the 2008 festivities, and Steve Knightley is now on record as far as HIS feelings are concerned about the BNP.
The flag of St. George is one of the many things we have to reclaim (mind you St. George himself isn't English [from the Lebanon I believe])

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
uppity "Indian" chick

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 12:08 PM

Hang on a mo, Bryn. This is a guy that seems to be linked with the Birmingham St George's Day Association, under the leadership of Carl Chinn, BBC broadcaster and historian, devoted Brummie and editor of the Brummagem Magazine. Kerfuffle seem to have appeared at the St George's Day event, the local Roundheads and Cavaliers Associations are linked (as folky as they come!), and so on. I am not saying that one shouldn't be wary, but rather that we should count to ten before judgement. Our own fear is what I am afraid of. If only because by lashing out blindly we damage friend and foe alike, we spend our effort shooting down the wrong targets, and eventually invalidate our own cause or even worse, run the risk of pushing people into the arms of the extremists.

Let's keep calm and evaluate.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 12:17 PM

Thanks for that, George. I'm slowly working my way through the site, warily, taking notes when I think appropriate. At the same time I'm waiting for our fascist friends to descend on this thread. (I am ready for them, mind you *LOL*)

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
uppity "Indian" chick

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: nutty
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 01:33 PM

Bryn -- if it were a site extolling the virtues of Wales or Scotland or Ireland would you be so suspicious?
We are allowed to be proud of our English heritage without being allied to the BNP.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 01:37 PM

"We are allowed to be proud of our English heritage without being allied to the BNP."
- nutty
and so we should be allowed, as George Papavgeris has stated,

"Our own fear is what I am afraid of. If only because by lashing out blindly we damage friend and foe alike, we spend our effort shooting down the wrong targets, and eventually invalidate our own cause or even worse, run the risk of pushing people into the arms of the extremists"

We can't allow the extremist, the BNP etc, to win!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
uppity "Indian" chick

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 02:34 PM

Site looks perfectly clean and wholesome as far as I can see. The music and books are unexceptionable. I'm not mad keen onm the St George Cross myself, but that's just a Cornishman's personal prejudice.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 02:43 PM

I suppose the acid test would be: this St Geoge's Day do the guy is so keen on, does it have any Brummie dhol drummers or whatever? Anyone know?

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: The Barden of England
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:39 PM

The BNP show the Union Flag, not the falg of St. George. I really, really hate the connotation that my flag is a symbol of racism, when an American can proudly display theirs. Anybody Scottish or Welsh has no such problem, so what's the problem with the English flag? Just to be quite plain here, I am one of the people that the BNP followers are trying so hard to discredit. I am a member of Folk against Fascism and am ready to 'Stand and be counted', but it's my flag too and I want it back!!!!
John Barden

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:44 PM

After John quoted Steve Knightley "but it's my flag too and I want it back!!!" I couldn't resist the rest of the song!

Now its been twenty-five years or more
I've roamed this land from shore to shore
From Tyne to Tamar, Severn to Thames
From Moor to Vale from Peak to Fen
Played in cafes and pubs and bars
I've stood in the street with my old guitar
But I'd be richer than all the rest
If I had a pound for each request
For Duelling Banjos, American Pie
It's enough to make you cry
Rule Britannia or Swing low
Are they the only songs the English know?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
They're never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - they need roots

After the speeches when the cakes been cut
The discos over and the bar is shut
At christening, birthday, wedding or wake
What can we sing until the morning breaks
When the Indian, Asians, Afro-Celts
It's in their blood and below the belt
They're playing and dancing all night long
So what have they got right that we've got wrong?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
Round the rocky shores of England

And a minister said his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
Its pubs where no one ever sings at all
And everyone stares at a great big screen
Over-paid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estuary English, baseball caps
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where we've come from?
Ive lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than well ever know
Round the rocky shores of England

Stand and Be Counted!!!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms
(very) uppity "Indian" chick

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:47 PM

When a teenager, I'd always intentionally refer to myself as English and not British, for it's positive language and cultural associations, and thoroughly eschew 'British' identity for the all the negative imperial association bollox. The NF were more than welcome to the Union Flag and all it represented to me, it suited them and their arrogant brain-dead bullshit. But now they've grabbed the St. George Cross too. And I feel like I wish I were Irish now..

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 06:02 PM

Go through the BNP heartlands of East Derbyshire and West Notts (where the late lamented WLD lives)- the stronghold of the UDM in 1984- and you'll see the St George flag in many places. They "own" that too. I'd like to see it changed, along with the Union Jack*, to a symbol of unity that neither of them has ever been. The Union was, and was intended as, an imposition of English capitalism on the subordinate British nations. So if we can do it, let's make them symbols of the real unity of ALL the people of Britain- in old British values of fair play, inventiveness and modesty, and new ones of equality and justice.

So, pardon, Mr Barden, there's a quisling in your garden...sorry. There's lots of hope, and young people with a bit of education seem to be pretty resistant to the charms of the snakes, it's the hopeless ones they court, and they need to be given hope.

*This country needs less pedant's.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: GUEST,Albannach
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 08:21 PM

Eh?

"The Union was, and was intended as, an imposition of English capitalism on the subordinate British nations. So if we can do it, let's make them symbols of the real unity of ALL the people of Britain- in old British values of fair play, inventiveness and modesty, and new ones of equality and justice".

Subordinate British nations???

Totally unbelievable English arrogance!

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: melodeonboy
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 08:52 PM

John Barden's right. It is his flag; and mine! The fact that there are a few racist nutters around who want to use it for their own political ends does not make it any less so.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: GUEST,Albannach
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 11:07 PM

You can keep your flag or share it with the BNP if you like. It's not mine. The Butcher's Apron is itself purely a political representation which will soon need to be redesigned.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 01:51 AM

Getting back to the website under discussion. Well, to me it looks fairly anodyne. But how's this for a suggestion. Most of the artists listed (not Mr Drake obviously!) have web sites, and you can purchase CDs direct from them in most cases. Not only do you know exactly were you money is going, but the artist gets a bigger slice of the cake...(And I've actually had nice little notes from artists included!)
Unless it's something really obscure (from a foreign country or somesuch) I would always endeavour to buy direct from the artist.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 02:47 AM

"Totally unbelievable English arrogance! "

Yes, Al, that's the way it was, and was intended, when they imposed the (three) unions. The arrogance was of course on the part of the ruling classes.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 10:34 AM

I prefer the flag of St George to the Union Jack any day. It's never been flown by an onvading or occupying army for the last four hundred years. The main association it has for me is that it's the one they fly from C of E churches when there's a church fete, and it's the one people stick out of the window when England's in the World Cup.

And of course St George has the merit of being shared as a patron saint with a whole lot of excellent countries, such as Greece. A very multicultural saint.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: GUEST,Melvyn Haigh
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 05:49 AM

I am absolutely astonished at some of your post's about
Outlook on England and as I am the owner of the website let me make a few things clear.

I am not nor is Outlook on England or the Birmingham St George's Day
Association racist or have any links or wish to have any links with
racist organisations,it fact the Birmingham St George's Day Association was set up to combat the stupid illusion that to be proud of our country was in some way racist.
It's like accepting the fact that you can be proud to be Irish or Scot or any nation but not England, how ridiculas is that.
Every nation on the face of the earth has somrthing in their past to be ashamed of, England does not have the monopoly.
Finally as to me being racist, it would be quite funny if it was not such a serious slur as my son- in- law is of Indian decent and so
my beautiful grand daughter has some indian blood.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:36 AM

Good man yourself Melvyn. I'm proud of Derbyshire (though I'm not from here), England, Britain, the EU (partly), and the World.

But are you only proud of the 'pretty' bits of England? What about our industrial heritage, which you have in bucketloads in Brum- your Birmingham picture is of the post-industrial, sanitised scene, and only the water in the canal would be recognisable to your grandad. If we forget that we used to be able to make tyhings, we'll not bring our rulers to account when they keep running industry down.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: GUEST,Callingbird
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:56 AM

At last, Melvyn. A voice of sanity.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Weasel
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 09:14 AM

Hear Hear!

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: melodeonboy
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 09:41 AM

And Hear, Hear again!

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: GUEST,Melvyn Haigh
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 01:35 PM

For further information about the Birmingham St George's Day Celebration's. We are in partnership with Birmingham City Council.
Since 2002 our media partner has been BBC radio WM.and for the guy who was interested if we have had the Dhoul blasters,yes we have at our prestigious Symphony Hall concert.
Provisional booking for 2010 the DEMON BARBERS ROADSHOW.
Check out their website.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 12:12 PM

From: GUEST,Ralphie - PM
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 01:51 AM

I agree with Ralphie, buy directly from the artist, where possible, if not, see if your local INDEPENDENT record shop has what you're looking for in stock (if they don't they'll probably be able to order it for you). Steve Knightley of SoH encourages people to support their local shop keepers and not patronise the corporates.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
REALLY uppity "Indian" chick

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 12:48 PM

Melvyn's posts are very reassuring but I'm a bit concerned about this from the site -

If you would like to learn more about our ancestors, the Anglo Saxons, click on the link below.
   
The Anglo Saxons


"Our ancestors"? Not mine but I still consider myself English.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 12:55 PM

"Our ancestors"? Not mine but I still consider myself English."
- TheSnailand definitely not mine! But the site does have some interesting features to it.

Many thanks to all for your contributoins to this thread, so far.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
VERY uppity "Indian" chick

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Weasel
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 01:15 PM

Concerned?

I don't know if my ancestors were Ancient Briton, Roman, Angle, Saxon, Jute or even Viking but I know that there were representatives of all of these around in the past and so each one could lay claim to being part of the ancestry of our country.

"Our ancestors" in this context is obviously a very general term - like "Our ancestors" the victorians or the ancient britons or Ug the caveman and his kin.

If the term had appeared in what was purporting to be a scholarly edition then yes, I might be concerned but this site isn't claiming that.

Cheers,

Weasel (who hopes he is replying to something said in jest, but who, after much of what he has read on Mudcat of late, no longer feels confident in presuming such a thing)

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 02:54 PM

"Weasel (who hopes he is replying to something said in jest,"

Not entirely. I'm afraid my encounters with the Steadfast Trust have made me a bit cautious about anyone who starts talking about the importance of Anglo-Saxon ancestry.

Also, this report leaves me a bit confused about what is actually going on. Perhaps Melvyn could clarify.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 03:01 PM

Thanks, Melwyn, for both your posts. I passed the websites, or the links, should I say, on to my Dad who was born in Brum.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 03:06 PM

It leaves me even more confused as the Birmingham Post has such an amateur bunch of web designers that it shows a blank page. But I saw from the url that the subject matter was something about bnp leader infiltrating the parade. Well Melvyn isn't responsible for people who come along uninvited, but on the AS bit, perhaps he could add bits about all the OTHER heritages Birmingham people have, even if you rather stupidly discount Black and Asian groups. Irish, for example. Scottish, Welsh, Jewish, Polish, Norman, German..... the list goes on. The idea that "proper" English people are Anglo Saxon is almost laughably deficient in simple history.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 03:21 PM

"It leaves me even more confused as the Birmingham Post"
-Paul Burke
The only one who appears to be confused is Mr. Burke. I had no trouble acessing the relevant page, as It turns out BNP leader Nick Griffin and deputy leader Simon Darby showed up at what was billed as West Bromwich's St. George's day Parade. However

"Councillor Derek Rowley, Sandwell's cabinet member for safer communities, said the pair's attendance proved the council right in its decision to cut funding for the march, which last year stood at around £10,000."

"Clearly the parade has been infiltrated by right wing extremists and they were bound to say they weren't being political."
- Derek Rowley

Instead, the authority organised its own fun day this year in Dartmouth Park .
Read The Rest Here

Memo to Mr Burke: there is a BIG difference between Birmingham and West Bromwich

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Weasel
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:09 PM

Yes Snail, I can understand that - I belong to an Anglo Saxon society - our interest is in the language, culture and history of Anglo Saxon England.

We all too often have "visits" from those who seem to think that we are some kind of political organisation (which we most certainly are not). It doesn't usually take them long to realise that they're at the wrong party.

Cheers,

Weasel

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:16 PM

Since when was it politically incorrect to keep history alive? The Welsh do it, The Scots do it, The Irish do it; why not The English (Anglo-Saxon)? if individual ethnic groupings can't do this, why don't we just give it all up now.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
who is far from Anglo-Saxon

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:34 PM

Jamming With Ollie Beak

Since when was it politically incorrect to keep history alive?

Never, as far as I know. I have a personal fascination for early Anglo-Saxon history largely derived from the Sussex (South Saxon) landscape in which I live but not from my biological ancestry which is mostly mixed "celtic" (Manx and Scots). My problem is with those who equate being English with having Anglo-Saxon ancestry.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:43 PM

You ask my Dad about growing up English, all his friends were English... except that many of them were of East Indian ancestry, West Indian ancestry, they were from Jamaica, Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, Eastern Europe, Chinese. They came because they wanted to come.
Dad, though born in England (Birmingham), was of Welsh and Scots background As many now know, I am part North American native and part white, I now call myself English. As you say, Snail, being English doesn't mean you're a WASP. That's a lesson the BNP and its lackies need to learn.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:54 PM

"Anglo-Saxon" - my impression is that the Saxons and the Angles didn't always get on too well.

Even today I was talking to someone who was highly indignat at the notion that Essex, the country of the East Saxons, should ever be regarded as part of "East Anglia".

As for those Jutes down in Kent, just as well we've got the Thames as a barrier. Crossing the Thames at Dartford Tunnel or Bridge always feels like going across a frontier. (That applies in London as well...)

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: treewind
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 05:11 PM

Melvyn Haigh might find it useful to insert a disclaimer into his site making it clear that he does not support the BNP or any other racist group so that
(a) this kind of misunderstanding doesn't happen again
and
(b) The BNP can't link to it as an example of public support for their views.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 05:11 PM

Remember that the Jutes came from Germany, where they pronounce the J as... well, let's say they were de yoot, man.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 05:26 PM

Surely the Jutes came from Jutland, which is now Denmark.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 05:29 PM

The Jutes, Iuti, or Iutae were a Germanic people who, according to Bede, were one of the three most powerful Germanic peoples of the time. They are believed to have originated from Jutland (called Iutum in Latin) in modern Denmark, Southern Schleswig (South Jutland) and part of the East Frisian coast.

handily cut and pasted from Wikipedia by

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
cut and paste diva

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 06:20 PM

Then up the river came some guys with hair both long a flaxen
So if your eyes are china blue , blame it on a Saxon !

But Arthur was a Celt !

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Weasel
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 06:22 PM

Arthur was a Celt and Noggin was....?

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 06:25 PM

unfortunately there are many dubious sites[I am not saying this one is]and many dubious blogs[some ripping off recordings from vinyl],it is always best[imo] to buy cds from the artists own website.

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 06:33 PM

Noggin

You mean this little guy?

Noggin the Nog

Noggin and the Pie

Noggin the Nog stories were based on the principle of a Norse saga, and every episode began with the words, "Listen to me and I will tell you the story of Noggin the Nog, as it was told in the days of old...

Noggin's name is from 'noggin', one of the very few surviving words of the ancient Celtic Brythonic language which survives in the common phrase "use your noggin"

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms0
used her noggin

Subject: RE: Outlook on England
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 06:41 PM

Leadfingers quoted
"Then up the river came some guys with hair both long a flaxen
So if your eyes are china blue , blame it on a Saxon !"

I THINK it should be
"Up the river came A CREW ..."

That makes an extra rhyme.

End of thread drift.

Richard