Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:29 AM

My God! Reading some of the above, I really wonder just how many of you actually knew Bert Lloyd. I did, for many years. He was one of the most important people to ever be involved in the British folk scene. He was polite, charming, intelligent and very, very generous in his time and knowledge. I don't know how many people, singers, scholars etc. he helped over the years, but without him we would all be the poorer. I have no idea what Dave Arthur will say about Bert in his forthcoming book ( yep, it's not out yet!)but I only hope that it will be more positive than some of the comments made in this column.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:34 AM

What says it all about you Jamming with Ollie Beak is you refering to A L Lloyd as Saint Lloyd, do you think this is amusing ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:30 AM

Bert Lloyd died 27 years ago and Ewan MacColl 20 years ago (next month). But as soon as their names are even mentioned all of these MacColl and Lloyd haters leap out of the woodwork to beat on their dead corpses ... why? It seems to me to be an enormous over-reaction.
So they were both controversial figures, but they were both great artists and if it wasn't for them we probably wouldn't have had a post-war folk revival.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:30 AM

I am not a Lloyd hater,I stated that I thought he was a good singer and that he did a lot of good for the Folk Revival.
I am not interested in that which Lloyd said on later occasions,that is not what is being discussed.
I have illustrated why Lloyds unqualified statement about Dylan was rubbish.
plus, why we do not need another name for folk songs,now I am going to do play some music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:49 AM

Mike, threads develop like this -it's a mudcat habit.

As an example people who were not at Sidmouth didn't like it - those who were thought it was great. Thus, people who knew MacColl like Jim Carroll thought he was overall a great bloke with some faults. Those who didn't know him thought he was arrogant.

Similarly those who didn't know Bert have all sorts of comments to make.

I met him three times and thought he was lovely.I do know he was so generous to so many people with his time and knowledge. He had his faults I suppose. I have never met anyone who was perfect.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:19 AM

Howard,I said that Dylans songs [or some of them were compatible with the traditional repertoire]I gave examples of songs of social comment,Patience Kershaw,Hard Times of old England which are accepted and which Lloyd accepted as folksongs along with Dark Eyed Sailor,I am saying that Masters of War and at least one other song[Dylan song ]are compatible with the traditional repertoire,and therefore Lloyd was wrong to duismiss all dylans material.
you come out with a subjective unqualified statement,that Dylans songs are different from Tam lin,of course they are,so is Patience K different from Tam Lin it is a social comment song written in a traditional style so is Masters of War .
M of W sits happily in the trad repertoire.
this thread is not about peoples personalities,but for the record I did know Bert Lloyd,he was a pleasant, intelligent man.
I did find Ewan arrogant on one occasion.that does not alter the fact he was avery talented individual.
MGM also quoted an example of MacColls arrogance in relation to John Brunner arrogance.
Lloyds scholarship and intellectual dishonesty have question marks against them,which is why I examine all his statements carefully and do not take some of his utterances too seriuosly,he was not a guru,and his opinions are not gospel,and on this occasion he is barking up the wrong tree .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:20 AM

the above should read
MGM also quoted an example of MacColls arrogance in relation to John Brunner.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:24 AM

Brune, not Brunner.

Brunner is an SF novelist.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:34 AM

Good Soldier Schweik , of course you are not a Lloyd or MacColl hater, you just never miss an opportunity to slag them both off thats all, or at least harp on at length on about their faults.

Dave H [ my real name incidently, not a false one ]

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 07:49 AM

no, John Brunner,the sci fi novelist,author of h bombs thunder,not john Brune.
Dave Hanson,INCORRECT,I have also praised MacColl
here is one of several.
Subject: RE: Folklore: What did you do in the war, Ewan?
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 12:19 PM

my brother who also lived in Beckenham,was allowed to go in and look through Ewan and Peggys books to review material,they were allowed in to the house ,in their absence.
Ewan and Peggy left a key to let themselves in,they were very trusting and most helpful, having books prepared and laid out etc.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 08:14 AM

J Campin - I confirm that what GSS said was correct: it was John Brunner, not John Brune. As well as being a sci-fi novelist, my friend John Brunner was a folk journalist [it was something he wrote in that capacity that provoked Ewan to one of his irrational outbursts] & the author of H-Bomb's Thunder.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 08:25 AM

Subject: RE: Folk Song in England - Lloyd
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:16 PM

It is a book that should be on the bookshelf of anybody interested in English folk song.
But like every book including the Bible, it needs to be questioned and analysed.
Subject: A.L.Lloyd and EwanMacColl on my space
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 08:21 AM

good audio tracks of these two giants of the folk revival available on my space.
Dick Miles.Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 02 May 08 - 08:53 AM

To people like Dick Miles who say that his sins are outweighed by the good things he did...that's well and good, and I agree. But it's really irrelevant. The great American linguist Benjamin Lee Whorf was never an academic--he was, in fact, a fire safety inspector. It so happens that his papers were great works of linguistic scholarship. But what if they had been deliberately misleading, and set our understanding of language and cognition back years. Would it be logical to argue: "well, maybe, but he saved a lot of lives as a fire safety inspector, so we can't blame him for those bad things he did?" In short, Bert's good effects on the world outweighed his bad ones, but I can still wish he hadn't had the bad effects.
no, because being a fire safety inspector has nothing to do with the tradition or the folk revival,Berts other work[Singing recording] was very important to the folk revival,so his doubtful scholarship has to be seen in relation to his other contributions to the folk revival.
benjamin lee whorf, may have been a great linguisatic scholar,but that was his only contribution.
A L Lloyd is a completely different kettle of fish,his contributuions to the folk revival were many faceted.Dick Miles
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Grocer (Ewan MacColl)
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 07:43 AM

Dave,I agree with you,it was a most depressing time,and writers like MacColl and Rosselson,did much to keep peoples spirits up.
MGM, at this time was employed as a critic for a national newspaper,enjoying the theatre in Cambridge.
Dave Hanson,these posts show that you owe me an apology.and that your remark trying to portray me as a Bert and Ewan basher are laughable,before you make accusations check your facts .Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 09:19 AM

To cross-refer & clarify, my account of Ewan MacColl's arrogance in relation to John Brunner, ref'd to by GSS above, can be found in my post of 30 August on the 'What Did You Do In The War Ewan?' thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 09:45 AM

Dick, where in the interview is Lloyd dismissing any of Dylan's material? He mentions him only once, in the extract I've already quoted, as an example of the type of performer who came to be labelled "folk singers" despite the fact that their repertoire was not "folk song" in the original sense of the term. That's not dismissing Dylan's material, simply saying that it should be put in a different category - not on grounds of quality, but of provenance.

I really don't want to open up yet another "what is folk?" thread, because there are far too many already and none of them seem able to reach a conclusion. Lloyd's opinion (which I happen to share) is that there is a difference between traditional songs and newly composed songs, and that the extension of the term "folk songs" to include both is confusing. I recognise that you take a different view.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 10:19 AM

and I am saying some of it should not be put in a different category.
I am also saying you cant lump the whole repertoire of one songwriter without discussing individual songs,that is what I mean by qualification,that is why his statement is nonsense.
it is as ill informed as saying Ewan MacColls songs should be put in a different category.
you cant make a statement like that and expect to be taken seriously. .we could take it seriously if he said which songs and gave detailed reasons why,but he does not.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:46 PM

Dick, you can categorise songs in many different ways - by subject, metre, whether they have a chorus, even simply whether or not you like them. One of the many ways of doing so is whether they are "folk songs" in the sense of what Lloyd referred to in the interview as "folkloric" songs, or whether they are modern composed songs. On this basis of categorisation Dylan's songs are in a different category from Seeds of Love or Tam Lin. This is not a value judgement, simply one of taxonomy.

If you choose to use a different basis for categorisation, including one based on quality, there's no reason why they shouldn't all be included together, but that's not the point of what Lloyd was saying about Dylan (who was mentioned only once, in passing, as one of a number of examples of a particular type of performer). Lloyd's point wasn't specifically about Dylan, far less an attack on him, and I'm puzzled why you are reacting as if it were.

Nowhere in the interview does Lloyd claim that folk music (in his sense) is superior to pop or art music. What he does say is that each in their own way offers a different experience. In fact, he's rather dismissive, scathing even, towards those who despise other forms of music other than their own preferred genre, whether that's pop, classical or traditional folk.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 01:05 PM

Howard ,pull the other one.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 01:06 PM

"What says it all about you Jamming with Ollie Beak is you refering to A L Lloyd as Saint Lloyd, do you think this is amusing ?"
- Dave Hanson

No it merely points out to me something I think I already knew, alot of folkes simply have no sense of humour, actually I wasn't joking the reverence the MacColl and Lloyd are held , well you may as well apply to the Vatican for canonization.

A thought occurred to me as regards lloyds attitude towards masters of War, he didn't think much of it because he didn't write it.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
I think I'll plug in the Strat

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 10:23 AM

"No it merely points out to me something I think I already knew, alot of folkes simply have no sense of humour, actually I wasn't joking the reverence the MacColl and Lloyd are held , well you may as well apply to the Vatican for canonization."

Now try substituting 'Elvis Presley' for MacColl and 'Bob Dylan' for Lloyd and you might get closer to a situation that many more people would agree with and recognise. As for 'lacking a sense of humour', well, I for one, don't find petty and mean-minded mocking of the dead very funny! And compared with the the moronic and unthinking adulation heaped on many popular music stars, over the last few decades, most people who enjoyed MacColl and Lloyd's music treated them with respect and admiration rather 'reverence' or anything more extreme. After all they weren't remote 'Stars' but living, breathing human beings who you could chat to when they were booked as guests at your local folk club.

Actually, though, it's that parting shot: "I think I'll plug in the Strat" that's most revealing. I suspect that the real reason why 'Jamming with Ollie Beak' (JWOB) didn't like Lloyd or MacColl was that they didn't conform to the stereotype of the popular musicians of their day i.e. at the height of their fame they weren't youthful and didn't play electric guitars (or take drugs or smash up hotel rooms). I suspect that JWOB sees himself/herself (not sure which he/she really is) as some kind of 'rock n' roll rebel' - but, in actual fact, he/she is an insecure conformist who can't bear to see anyone doing it differently and brands them as 'heretics' if they do.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 12:09 PM

"as some kind of 'rock n' roll rebel' - but, in actual fact, he/she is an insecure conformist who can't bear to see anyone doing it differently and brands them as 'heretics' if they do."
- GUEST,Shimrod

You're soooo off the beam Shimrod ( I men talk about stereotyping! yeesh), maybe you should be writing for television. Yes I play my late mother's 1959 Fender Strat, but I also play a Martin HD28 VS, a Fylde Magician acouustic bass plus a Weber Tamarack Mandocello, plus I sing accompanied or A capella...sorry I just can't stop laughing here, so I'll finish up..... we don't all do it the same, things would get very boring if we did

Happy playing to all

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms0

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 12:59 PM

GREG STEPHENS WROTE

Very interesting stuff indeed. Bert always talked more sense than anyone on the subject, to my way of thinking. He'd actually gone into the whole thing very deep. Not but what he couldn't talk as much bollocks as the rest of us, when on form. And it must not be forgotten, as is now well known, that he wasn't averse to a bit of evidence-massaging if it suited his case.

This seems to be the statement that is nearest to the mark for me. Conversations with Bert were an absolute delight, though as Greg points out, he had his own agenda and that had an effect on his statements. He was a good listener as well as a good talker and he had a razor sharp mind that went straight to the heart of the matter. Certainly, he was much more impressive and better informed than Ewan MacColl, who could often came over as a self-centred bore. His interest in the range of popular music was broad and for a man regarded as as a guru of traditional music some of his interests were pretty catholic. As an intense young traddie, I can remember being surprised at Bert Lloyd's high opinion of the early recordings of Elvis Presley.

At breakfast in our house one time after he had been the guest at our folk club, I can remember asking him for a satisfactory definition of folk music. Instead of treating this as the foolish question that it undoubtedly was - and probably one that he was repeated asked - he gave me a reply that I will never forget.

"The longer I study the subject the more difficult that question becomes. Look out of the window - it is daytime and we can agree on that. If we looked out at eleven o'clock tonight, we would agree that it was nighttime. However, at what exact point does the one become the other. That's where we would disagree...... It is the same with folk music."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 01:44 PM

Vic Smith[quote],As an intense young traddie, I can remember being surprised at Bert Lloyd's high opinion of the early recordings of Elvis Presley.
   ha ha, how funny,I agree his[Elvis] earlier recordings are better than his later ones,but really to have a high opinion of Elvis is laughable,he was the epitome of watered down roots music, someone who could be packaged and sold to white teenagers.
is it important whether he liked Elvis,or whether he liked Carl Perkins[the man Elvis nicked Blue Suede shoes off].
However ,it shows what a polite man he was.
if I had been in that situation and been asked such a stupid question,by such an intense twat,at breakfast time.
I would have picked up my porridge,and thrown it over your head.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 02:02 PM

Oh dear, JWOB! What an idiot I am! If I'd known that you played a Weber Tamarack Mandocello I'd never have written anything so silly!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 02:03 PM

"Elvis is laughable,he was the epitome of watered down roots music, someone who could be packaged and sold to white teenagers."
- Good Soldier Schweik

listen to the Original version of Hound Dog by Big Mama Thornton
and hear just how "white bread' Elvis's version is.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 02:15 PM

"Oh dear, JWOB! What an idiot I am! If I'd known that you played a Weber Tamarack Mandocello I'd never have written anything so silly!"
-Guest Shimrod

Yes you would, but that's just the sort of person you are, dare to criticze or make fun of your heroes and woe betide that person...I proved that conclusively, and that's the only reason I did it, in reality, neither MacColl nor Lloyd effect me much either way,I prefer Sam Larner, Harry Cox, Peter Bellamy and Walter Pardon with a smattering of Cecelia Costello Shirley Collins and The Watersons in all their incarnations. I won't proceed any further, it's probably way over your head.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson
plays the music rather than just talk about it

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 02:24 PM

Charlotte wrote

"listen to the Original version of Hound Dog by Big Mama Thornton
and hear just how "white bread' Elvis's version is."

Well, yes, entirely..... and that was why I was surprised by Bert Lloyd's enthusiasm.

I had heard Big Mama Thornton when I was about 14 or 15 when she toured here with the Chris Barber band not that long after the Elvis version came out. Even singing "Hound Dog" with British musicians that she was unfamiliar with, her version came over as clearly superior. Her comments at the time about the version by the rising world superstar that had eclipsed hers were somewhat less than complimentary

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 03:47 PM

" ... but that's just the sort of person you are ..."

What sort of person would that be then JWOB? Certainly not the sort of person who makes snide and disrespectful comments about dead artists. For example, I never really understood the appeal of Peter Bellamy - but I wouldn't dream of upsetting people who did admire his work by referring to him as "St. Bellamy". Nor would I exaggerate by referring to his fans as "acolytes".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 03:52 PM

"disrespectful comments about dead artists"
-Guest Shimrod
I said, somewhere back there, which you obviously missed (why DOESN'T that surprise me?) that i felt the same way when Lloyd and MacColl were alive; so quit harping on about "dead" artists will ya!!?Yeesh...anyway....

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Bert Lloyd Interview on Mus Trad
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 04:01 PM

I'm not biased I'll pass on any piece of news....
For Those Who Need To Know
Ewan MacColl Memorial Concert and Book Launch

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)