Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: shipcmo
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:03 AM

Blow De Man Down

Ah de blow de man down.
Ah de blow de man down.

Yey-ee hey, blow de man down.
Oh blow de man down,
Come down below,
Give us some time to blow de man down.

And-a blow de man down.
And-a blow de man down.
Yey-ee hey blow de man down.
Blow de man down,
Come down below,
Give us some time to blow de man down.

Notice the "hitch" Rasmussen gives to the "-ee" of the "Yey-ee"

Click to play

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: shipcmo
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 11:41 AM

Following MIDI's courtesy folkinfo.org Jon Freeman & Vaughan Hully

Kis Ki Ma Doo Day

Goodbye My Flennie

Hullabalaylay

Away Hay (1)

Away Hay (2)

Doh Ray Mi

Hand, Hand, Hand Over Hand

Hellie Shumra

Wild Efforts (1)

Wild Efforts (2)

Wild Efforts (3)

Wild Efforts (4)

Wild Efforts (5)

Wild Efforts (6)

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 05:31 PM

In reference to "St. Helena Soldier," above,

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123355&messages=37#2770639

I recently discovered this text of a similar sing-out:

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib - PM
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 07:46 PM

1899       Boyd, Alex J. _The Shellback._ Ed. by Archie Campbell. New York: Brentano's.

Or "At Sea in the 'Sixties"

Describes Yankee "hellships" of the 1860s. The ship ALTAMONT from Melbourne bound to West coast of South America....

I shall never forget the "shantey," I heard once, when I went aloft in a heavy blow for the first time to assist in furling the foresail. The sail was stiff and frozen, and when at last we were ready to haul up the bunt, the shanteyman broke into song.

All hands took a good grip, and waited. There we lay along the yard, the gale howling in our teeth, our fingers freezing, listening to a soug. It seemed to me a dreadful waste of time, especially as we were wet and cold, and I wanted to get below out of the cutting wind and sleet The "shanteyman," however, drawled out clear enough, in spite of the howling of the wind—

"Who sto-o-ole my b-o-ots?
That dirty Blackball sailor. 

Who sto-o-ole my b-o-ots?
   Ah—ha!!"

With the "Ah—ha!" chorused by all hands, the sail was rolled up in a jiffy, the gaskets passed, the bunt neatly made, and we got down from aloft far quicker than if we had fumbled about in a disconnected "Pull you, Johnny, I pulled last" kind of fashion.

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 05:24 PM

Thanks, Geo, for the specific passage from Adams (1879). Here is the passage from Masefield (1906):

In the merchant service, where the ships are invariably undermanned, one sings whenever a rope is cast off the pin. You haul a brace to the cry of "O, bunt him a bo," "O rouse him, boys," "Oho, Jew," "O ho ro, my boys," and similar phrases. You clew up a sail to the quick "Lee-ay," "Lee-ay," "Ho ro," "Ho," "Aha," uttered in a tone of disquiet or alarm. You furl a course to the chant of "Paddy Doyle and his Boots." Without these cries and without the chanties you would never get the work done.

The "Jew" one always cracks me up. I don't suppose it was really a reference to Jews (?), but maybe just Masefield's way of rendering a nonsense syllable. Or maybe it was short for "Julia" -- a name Harlow tells us was common when singing out.

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:43 PM

Robert C. Adams in in his book "On Board The 'Rocket'", 1879. In a section titled "Sailors' Songs", he comments: "In addition to these songs are the unnamable and unearthly howls and yells that characterize the true sailor, which are only acquired by years of sea service. There is the continuous running solo of "way-hey he, ho, ya," &c. accompanying the hand-over-hand hoisting of jibs and staysails. Then for short "swiggs" at the halyards, we have such utterances as "hey lee, ho lip, or yu," the emphasis and pull coming on the italicized syllables on which the voice is raised a tone. Then comes the more measured "singing out," for the long and regular pulls at the "braces." Each sailor has his own "howl" peculiar to himself, but fortunately only one performs at a time on the same rope."

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:21 PM

Just noting that, in reviewing earlier literature, I've noticed that most of the sing-outs offered by Hugill (i.e. that he didn't hear himself) came from:

Adams - ON BOARD THE ROCKET
Masefield - A SAILOR'S GARLAND
Harlow - THE MAKING OF A SAILOR (or whatever version it was that he had access to at the time!)

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: shipcmo
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:34 AM

At the risk of thread creep, I was reading Hugill's references to "yelps and hitches", and decided to listen to Alan Lomax's "Negro Prison Songs", and couldn't help but wonder if some to the "warbling" therein might be similar?
Cheers,
Geo

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 11:02 AM

One more "sing out" (broadly conceived). It is related to the "bunch of roses" theme, and to the Harlow "O Mary" sweating up chant from above.

Ho Molly!

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: JeffB
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:56 AM

Sorry, a bit of threadcreep here.

The origin of Running Down (as a shanty) is a good point. I'm not an expert on shanties or collections but I can't remember seeing it published either. I assumed it was a English shanty because the version I heard (from a Cornish group) had the lines "Running down to Cuba for a load of sugar/ Make her run you lime-juice squeezers." English sailors were "limeys" and Bristol used to do a lot of trade in the Caribbean for sugar and tobacco. But on second thoughts, maybe limeys wouldn't call themselves "lime-juice squeezers." Overall, the words seemed just a little bit too composed to be really genuine, but I accepted it at face-value.

One website claims it as a Newfoundland/ Labrador song, and says it was a protest shanty because the crew would stamp their feet a lot when singing it if they thought they were being worked too hard. But I don't quite get it. There's nothing in the text to suggest discontent like, for instance, "Leave her Johnny".

I think you could very well be right in suspecting that it's been expertly cooked up from a number of handy ingredients.

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:31 PM

Hi JeffB

Thanks for drawing that connection. I think my previous post would answer your question -- so far as I can answer it, that is. Hugill has culled it from Whall (1910), who had it as a sing-out and in which category he has placed it. I am going by that.

If you listen to my recorded realization of the sing-out, you'll hear, too, that it is different from the chanty. The fact that the chanty shares a phrases doesn't necessarily say much; most of the chanty is floating verses found in other ones. Of course, one very well may have borrowed the line from the other directly, but the one I am discussing is still given as a sing-out, and its form is as such.

Incidentally, what is the source for the chanty "Running Down.."? Do we have a grip on the person or text from whom the recent versions were first learned? I don't *remember* offhand seeing it in any of the chanty books I have. Stan Hugill has a recording of it, but did not include it in his texts. He does mention, however, the "do nothing" chantey in the previous post of shipcmo, which also contains one of the floating lines in the Running Down chanty. Hugill cites the line:

I've got a sister none foot high
CH: Way down in Cuba

...after which the men jumped and the mate told them to knock it off.

Now, I am seeing "Running Down.." presented as a "protest" chanty by performers. I really can't see how a gesture that was meant to get a quick rise out of the officers could go on for so long with so many verses! I mean, was it really a *chanty*? And if Hugill had known it as a chanty back then, why would he have neglected to mention it? From whom did he learn this "traditional" chanty for his 1989 recording with Stormalong John? Is it possible, that Hugill or someone else took the idea of the "do nothing" chanty and combined it with the sing-out, with a dash of "Gals of Chile" and "Haul Away Boys" (p269, 1994 edition of SFSS)...to flesh out this nice little package?

Gibb

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: JeffB
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:49 PM

Gibb, going back to your post of 15/1, isn't the "Running down to Cuba" sing-out just a line from the shanty of the same name rather than a sing-out in its own right?

"Give me a girl who can dance fandango / (Running down to Cuba) / Breasts like melons and sweet as a mango / (Way me boys to Cuba)

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: shipcmo
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:41 PM

And of course, there is the "do nothing" chantey; if I recall was: "I got a gal that lives on a hill", or something like that.
Cheers,
Geo

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 08:27 PM

After culling the other written sources, Stan Hugill states,

"I myself have sung out some wild efforts too, learnt from older seamen..."

He follows with these brief examples.

..which is followed by a disclaimer:

"But it is extremely difficult, in fact impossible, to translate by means of cold standard music notes on paper the wild and fearsome effect of these cries. No landsman could ever hope to imitate them!"

Elsewhere in his book he talks about "wild" cries of Black sailors that, supposedly White men could not imitate! Now it appears in this passage that White men could do similar cries, as long as they were sailors! Obviously it is B.S. One just needs to hear how it is done.

Too bad recorded examples, where one could hear the singing style, are extremely rare. At the end of this clip I have put the brief moment from Tom Sullivan's SALT ATLANTIC CHANTIES album in which he performs one. I am not sure where he learned it, but there is reason to belief he has also taken it from Hugill's collection...which put us in a spot of still not hearing an "authentic" recording. What is also puzzling about his recording is that one can hear a line being hauled on the off-beats, which is not what I would expect to happen.

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 11:49 AM

Gibb Sahib, if my memory serves me right the "ek, do, tin" were sung, ascending but the "ch--a---a--r" was shouted by all the kalasis.

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 06:44 PM

I might be way off the mark here
No, I don't think you are. I am with you. My (again, mainly rhetorical) curiosity is just because in the context of the 19th century sailing practice (and I base this on all the shanties I've heard/seen), they maintain a very strict differentiation between heave and haul. My guess is that it is mainly among landsmen that the distinction was lost/ignored.

"Yo heave ho" is not only fiction :) But I, too, am not sure if it was sometimes a call to *haul*. I can cite its "proper" use for heaving in the shanty (see Hugill) "Yeo heave ho, round the capsan go..."

Gibb

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:18 PM

I might be way off the mark here but 'heave' I think was used generically for anything that involved putting your shoulder into it or collective physical effort. Think of the ancient call 'Yo-o, heave-o!' or does that only occur in fiction?
When I mentioned '1,2,3, heave' I was referring loosely to what landsmen might use for doing any sort of collective pulling or pushing, e'g' pushing a poorly vehicle, tug of war.

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:06 PM

Thanks, Ron -- Was Hindi phrase sort of "sung", or just shouted, closer to speech?

With "2,6, heave!" and "1,2,3, heave!" I wonder -- when and why these less colorful chants may have replaced (if they did) the 19th century sing-outs that the shanty writers are talking about. (And, more rhetorically, why they say "heave" when they are usually hauling?)

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:28 PM

Waht ever happened to the good old
'One, two, three, hea------ve!'?

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 11:58 AM

I recall hearing our Indian crew singing out " Ek, do, tin, ch--a--a---r!" [ 1,2,3,4] with the haul on the drawn out char.

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 10:11 PM

I had forgetten this old "sing out" that also came in Harlow's text. More notes in the link.

"O Mary Come Down"

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 10:02 PM

and the next one...

This hand-over-hand chant, printed in Stan Hugill's shanty text, was culled from Doerflinger's work. Doerflinger gave it in the context of illustrating the development of shantying. He got it from Capt. James P. Barker, who would have sung it around the turn of the 20th century. It was a simple sing-out for taking in the slack of a rope.

hellie hellie shumra

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 09:44 PM

And another, the next in Hugill:

Divil run away with a Liverpool man

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 09:23 PM

Hugill got this hand-over-hand chant from Professor J. Glyn Davies, who said it was often sung among Welsh crews. It appears that Hugill bowdlerized the text. The original, most likely, used a different word in place of "go" -- take your pick.

Do re mi...

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Nick E
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 08:49 PM

I thought a sing out was the CALL in Call and Response.
How wrong might that be?

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 02:57 PM

Thank you, Steve. Mudcat search is weird sometimes. It would not come on the normal search, but it did come up, as you said, through Google.

Here's the link, everyone:

Thread 61207

Gibb

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 02:30 PM

Sorry Gibb,
I only got it by Googling. I can't do links unfortunately but here is some further detail that might help.
The thread title was
Lyr Add: Sea Shanties from 'The Complaynt' (1549)
The thread was started on 14th July 2003 at 5.54
There are no tunes to the texts I'm afraid, and from what I see there are sing-outs and then repeats by the sailors.
If you Google the thread title you can't miss it.

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 12:53 PM

And another, from Harlow and reproduced....with mysterious errors (?) in Hugill:

Harlow long drag

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 12:49 PM

Here is another,

Harlow's sing-outs at the foresheet

Notes:

Stan Hugill reproduced some of the sing-outs and short work chants that had earlier appeared in Harlow's work. (Harlow's full work was published in pieces in the 1920s, 40s, 60s, but it was based on his experiences at sea in 1875.)

The short call that Hugill reproduces actually appears in two variations in Harlow's original. The first, here, is filed as "A walk away" (pg 9 of the Mystic Seaport edition).

The second (the one that appears also in Hugill) is given much more context.

Harlow relates how it was the customary duty of the ship's cook to perform one hauling task: taking in the slack of the foresheet when it was to be hauled aft.

""Our cook, Brainard, was a middle-aged man and knew his duty, for he shout out of the galley door when the order to "Haul aft the foresheet" was given and, throwing the coil from the belaying pin in true sailor style, braced his foot against the spare spar and with his hands close up to the sheave in the rail, flung the loose rope behind him as he pulled hand over hand as fast as he could, entering into the spirit as a fox terrier might shake a rat; and by his runaway yell he brought in the slack as follows:

[2nd variation appears here]

Instead of running along the deck with the rope, which was customary and often done with the braces, the man hauling in the sheet took his position close up to the sheave in the bulwarks, where the rope came through from the outside, and with one foot braced against the spare spar, which rested in a chock on top of the waterways and was lashed to the bulwarks, he could pull and sing out to his hearts content."" (pg 24)


I presume that this singing would continue until the slack is all taken out, but the texts only give this phrase, with an odd fermata on the last note -- indicating a pause, rather than a rhythmic continuation.

****

Steve,
I could not find the thread after searching. Got a link? And is there musical notation, or only text? Thanks

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 02:58 PM

In answer to my own question there is already a thread which reproduces the appropriate extract verbatim from as far back as 2003, just search for 'Complaynt of Scotlande'. I can still have a go at a translation though if anyone needs it.

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 02:36 PM

I'm currently reading a reprint of 'The Complaynt of Scotlande' c1540 which contains a detailed graphic description of some form of chants with repeats and the jobs done with them aboard ship. I can translate it into modern English (it's quite long) if required, but if it's already online somewhere or in the DT I'd rather not duplicate the effort.

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:13 PM

Here's another. Not much to write home about. But if anyone is familiar with Dravidian languages....!

"Arlis"

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:49 PM

Hi Chanteyranger,

I have gotten the impression that Paddy Doyle's Boots really was the bunting chantey par excellence back in the day. Maybe for this reason (the distinctive task), it was to feature very distinctly in the texts of those people who ended up writing about chanteys...and it was so well-preserved that it escaped the ghetto of "miscellaneous sing-outs."

The authors who cite Royal Artillery Man and Corn Broom (all of them, I believe?) discuss it as for sweating up. No reason to necessarily assume it was limited to that task. However, I believe that the Mystic Seaport demonstration program, seeing the utility of them and perhaps looking for variety, adopted them for bunting chanteys...especially because of the dearth of bunting chanteys on record, and because it is a task they demonstrate often. This is prob. how Rev learned them. Someone can perhaps confirm.

Thanks for reminding me of another clip: Rev Carr can be heard leading his version of Royal Artillery Man in the following clip...though it takes a slight bit of work to find. It's at approx. 15:30 minutes in, after John Kanaka. [The crew was all shanghaied here last minute, and we weren't all sure what we were doing necessarily :) ]   The tune, I believe, is the oral version developed in the Mystic school, which might be compared to my straight-outta-Hugill's-text version, above.

RAM

Gibb

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 06:32 PM

Rev Carr taught to me, in the years we worked together in SF, The Royal Artillery Man, Paddy Doyle's Boots, and Corn Broom Hickory Broom as "bunting" chanteys, when sailors up aloft, standing on yards (or "spars," where sails hung from)hauled sails to the top of the yard after furling them. It took a few good hauls (pulls) to get the heavy canvas on top of the yard, and these short bunting chanteys were used as they hauled together.

-Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:57 PM

Two more examples, from Hugill's text, that I have tried out. Again, there is no pretense of authenticity.

1) Hugill learned this from a shipmate. However, CF Smith is supposed to have also collected a version. I don't have here text, so feel free to comment on how similar the two collected examples are.

Hauley, Hauley-Ho! / England, Old Ireland

2) Hugill took this one from Whall's text. I cannot confirm whether he reproduced it accurately. Also, it was not indicated where the pull should occur. Hugill said he thought it might come on "Running," however in my lowly attempt I felt it might be better suited to "CU-ba".

"Running down to Cuba"

To MtheGM's earlier comment -- I am with you. In the dedicated section of Hugill's book, he seems to haphazardly call them all "sing-outs" -- though it is clear that they are of varying styles, for different sorts of work, of varying complexity, etc. For example, some are more clearly for "sweatin' up" -- single, strong pulls -- while others are for hand-over-hand stuff which could vary from steady, repeated pulls (tension on the rope) to simply running through the slack on the line.

And as MtheGM says, I can see no great reason to put "Paddy Doyle" and, even more notably, "Johnny Bowker," in other sections of these texts (i.e. filed as short drag chanteys). All in all, the filing/classification is not important -- except only in the way that we have come to receive these texts nowadays. I suspect the reason for the separate filing of "Doyle," "Bowker," etc is because they were so well-established and fairly consistent...as opposed to the more incidental and variable texts that have been salvaged under the heading of "sing-outs."

Gibb

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:57 AM

When, for that matter, does a 'sing-out' become a fully-fledged shanty? — I would urge the example of the exceedingly brief Paddy Doyle's Boots.

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM

Hi!

A couple more sing-outs...
I'd still be interested to hear about any others that people have sung. Book references are very welcome, but I'd also be curious to hear versions of these that people have actually performed, in whatever context.

Here's two sample attempts:
1. St. Helena Soldier
2. Royal Artillery Man

and here's the Hindi and Samoan (supposedly?) ones, from Whall's text and reproduced in Hugill's:
Hindustani and Samoan sing outs

Enjoy! Add more!

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: KathyW
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 09:23 PM

There's always the classic "two, six, heave!"

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 09:27 AM

This little chant was documented by Harlow, then reproduced in Hugill's book.


Corn broom, hickory broom, squilgee, SWAB!



This is also the chant that C. Sharp reproduced, although he has:



I sell brooms, squeegees and SWABS!

Here's a video I made of it. There's no pretense of authenticity, as I am only imagining what it was to sound like.
"Broom" chant

Subject: RE: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:45 AM

I learned this one from Rev Carr:

"My bleedin' fancy man, he's a royal artillery man.
He wears SPURS!"

I believe that's one that may have come through, and been shaped by, the Mystic Seaport program. They sometimes use it for bunting.

A version of it appears in Whall, reproduced by Hugill.

Subject: Sing-outs (semi-chanteys)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:18 AM

I'd be interested to know if anyone knows of any audio/video sources for examples of so-called "sing-outs." These were minor, chantey-like bits used for short jobs aboard ship.

Well, I suppose we need to define that even better, since one could argue that the sort of nonsense stream of yodeled (?) vocables for, say, gathering up slack and preparing to haul was something different than the more pointed "chants" for "sweating up." So I'm aware that there are different phenomena, but since we don't really have names (?) to distinguish them, and since they are so rarely discussed, it wouldnt hurt to lump them. Suggestions in that regard are welcome.

Even more welcome would be, as I said, references to audio, visual, textual sources, personal experiences... that one could learn from to get an idea of this under-studied aspect of maritime singing.

The best text sources I know of are Harlow's book, Hugill's, and Whall's. Cecil Sharp mentioned one in his intro to ENGLISH FOLK-CHANTEYS. Those all have music notation. I don't recall which all might mention them with just text, but Olmsted's 1841 INCIDENTS OF A WHALING VOYAGE comes to mind.

But the biggest challenge is to get a real sense of the actual sound. The mentioned authors don't try too hrd to render the sing-outs in notation.
I believe Tom Sullivan does something of the sort on "Haul er Away" on the SALT ATLANTIC CHANTIES album.

Other sources? Thank you!