The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 06:12 AM

Looking forward to seeing you in the Sussex concert and elsewhere at Whitby!

Valmai

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 07:11 PM

Keep playing the banjo Vic. Hope to see ( and play music with ) you again someday.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 05:39 PM

Happy retirement, Vic.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM

"I think it's good that students at Newcastle upon Tyne can do a Degree in Folk and Traditional Music, but I wish it was a Degree in English Traditional and Contemporary Folk Music – to match Glasgow's Degree in Scottish Traditional Music, and Limerick's Degree in Irish Traditional Music and Dance" (from here).

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Mo the caller
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM

Enjoy your retirement.

Look forward to seeing the students at Whitby again.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:03 PM

Thanks for that, Vic, and have fun in your retirement! :)

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: GUEST,Dave (Bridge)
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 05:24 PM

Just as a point of interest, the students have been appearing at the Bridge Folk Club for a number of years, Rising Stars nights, and are indeed learning a great deal about stage craft and delivery and general goings on within a folk club. More recently they have been running the Rising Stars nights, and doing a mighty fine job. I think folk music is very safe in their hands. Long may it continue.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: GUEST,Vic Gammon
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:19 PM

I have only just become aware of this thread. I recently retired from my post at Newcastle. Given the interesting content of the thread, here is the text of a communication I sent to let people know about my retirement:
...
Dear Friends and Colleagues,

I thought I would let people know that I will be retiring from my job at Newcastle University at the end of July this year. I have considered the matter carefully, and Sheila and I both feel this is the right move to make – in fact only about eight months ahead of my 65th birthday.

It has been a great experience working at Newcastle on the BMus in Folk and Traditional Music. The course is unique and excellent and I have heard some truly wonderful music from both students and colleagues. The chance to bring together my university experience with the interest that has sustained me throughout my adult life has made an exceptional and pleasing finish to my full-time career. The International Centre for Music Studies has been supportive and collegial, tolerant and friendly, a very good place to work.

I will continue researching, writing and publishing in retirement (I have two major projects to finish and the wish to complete these is part of my motivation to retire). I also want to spend a bit more time on practical music making, which has been somewhat squeezed in recent years.

Newcastle kindly offered that I continue to work for them after retirement on a 0.2 basis. I have thought about this but I have decided not to take up the offer as I am concerned about not being able to detach myself from a department in which I have been so deeply involved. There would be no point in retiring if I was still caught up in the business of the department, and I observe that fractional contracts never end up being as small as the fraction you are paid for! Sheila is keen that I actually retire. I will miss colleagues and students at Newcastle and further afield, and hope I can find ways to keep in touch.

Thanks for all your help and support in the past and my very best wishes for the future,

Vic Gammon
....

I remain a 'guest member of staff' at Newcastle and am doing a bit more singing and playing than I was doing up to my retirement!

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 05:38 AM

The first post mentions 422 as graduates. No-one could say they don't make you want to dance.
And run good workshops. And are really nice to work with (I had the pleasure of calling one dance at the caller's workshop dance at Whitby the other year)

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 08:27 PM

Hmmm, spindrift not only play dance tunes, but actually perform morris as part of their set.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: GUEST,Dazbo At Work
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 12:01 PM

I see they have a dance tutor. Is that, I presume, for playing for dancing? The reason I ask is that I have seen a few bands made up of graduates from this course performing on stage over the last two years and the one negative thing that struck me is they seem unable to play dance tunes in a way that actually makes me want to dance (I admit that this is only a small percentage of the graduates out there). It seems to me from this small sample, that in general one of the two main areas of folk music, that is playing for dancing, has been - to some extent - ignored.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: GUEST,CSL
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 06:08 PM

November the 1st at South Shields Folk Club

Vic Gammon
and, from the Newcastle Uni Folk Degree course,
Isla Hughes, voice and flute,
Nick Wiseman-Ellis, melodeon, fiddle, and morris,
Georgia Shackleton, voice and fiddle,
Ben Church, voice and guitar.

plus residents and visitors, and a merry music session before we begin.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:29 PM

Ah, Dave, you are obviously as accomplished a gastronome as folkie. Bon appetit and betayavon!

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 01:23 PM

Try a little chili on them. And they taste a bit like boiled badger.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 01:12 PM

Covered in shame and confusion. I'm going down the garden to eat worms. [Is a version of that particular ditty taught on the course, btw?]

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 01:08 PM

There were all sorts of people who have at times been involved in the degree who weren't listed and as Effsee has pointed it out it wasn't difficult to find out about Alistair's contribution, since it was in the very first post.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 12:40 PM

I thought the concertina section lacked depth., also only one flute teacher.compared to the amount of voice teachers that is very thin

As far as I know, the students have to opt for either two instruments or one instrument and singing. The number of instrumental tutors in each section will vary from year to year for each instrumental or vocal discipline according to the demand.

Good to see a dance tutor in there as well. At Broadstairs, I met young Pip Ives, who I have mentioned above and he said that I just had to see the female rapper team made up of Newcastle students; I am glad that I did for they were truly outstanding with Pip playing the anglo-concertina for them - I had only heard him playing melodeon previous to that.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Effsee
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 12:39 PM

MtGM... from the original post..."Alistair Anderson is retiring from being the Artistic Director of Folkworks and ceasing to be the temporary Degree Programme Director for the BMus. Alistair will continue with his teaching for the folk degree as well as his composition and performance work. Alistair's work has been central to creation and success of the degree and he remains a vital presence in its work."

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 12:24 PM

Sorry Dave - but he is not on Howard Jones's list above, that I can see. I didn't say he had never been involved, which would have been more than I could speak to: but he certainly isn't listed there, so I made my comment in good faith with no intention to offend. So that, as you ask, is where I am coming from...

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 11:17 AM

Ali? Not involved in the degree course?

Where are you coming from Mike?

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 11:13 AM

'a good mixture of youth and experience '

Indeed — even a mother & daughter which I think is wonderful. Talking of Lou's absence; the other so-distinguished Geordie English·concertina player Ali Anderson doesn't seem to have got involved either. But then, he is another Oldie; like me...

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 10:58 AM

ah, but the best players can also be the best teachers,as a matter of fact Lou did step in on one occasion,when someone was absent and apparantly it was a great success,of course he has been seriously ill since then.,so as you say may not be interested.
   another person who is very well equipped,because he can play both and English and/Anglo and can play tunes and sing AND ACCOMPANY well is Keith Kendrick,I believe he did a workshop recently in LEWES.
I thought the concertina section lacked depth., also only one flute teacher.compared to the amount of voice teachers that is very thin

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: GUEST,s-j in newcastle
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 10:58 AM

Hi, just noticed the comment about Louis Killen and just thought that would mention whilst I was on the course (graduated in2007 at the age of 30!) he was a visiting tutor for voice..there are often 'guest' tutors that sometimes come in and teach.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 10:06 AM

According to the website, the tutors are:

Head of Studies: Desi Wilkinson

    * Voice: Sandra Kerr, Chris Hendry, Chris Coe, Emily Portman, Janet Russell, Frankie Armstrong, Alison McMorland, Maggi Boyle, Karine Polwart, James Fagan, Tim Van Eycken, Paul Sartin, Nancy Kerr
    * Accordion, Melodeon, Concertina: Julian Sutton, Martin Green, Karen Tweed, Ian Lowthian
    * Percussion, Bodhrán etc.: Will Lang
    * Fiddle, Cello: Catriona MacDonald, Stuart Hardy, Wendy Weatherby, Peter Tickell, John Dipper, Claire Mann, Nancy Kerr,
    * Flute: Desi Wilkinson
    * Pipes, Whistle: Kathryn Tickell, Joey Oliver, Paul Martin
    * Guitar, Banjo: Mick Wright, Martin Carthy, Duck Baker, Ian Stephenson, Chris Newman, John Renbourn
    * Keyboard, Harp, Clarsach: Andy May, Phil Alexander, Harris Playfair
    * Dance : Laura Thirkell

There seems to be a good mixture of youth and experience between them.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 09:50 AM

jack ,
yes I do know his age,I know LOU reasonably well,by the way he is a revival musician.
the point I was making was that we should not ignore experience,in the blind pursuit ofor youth at all costs,but rather make decisions based on skill,experience and talent regardless of age.
its more a question of getting a good balance of youth and experience

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 09:20 AM

Lou Killen [...] is conspicuously absent from the tutors list on the Newcastle degree course.

....And the best players are not neccessarily the best teachers.

Do we know if he has been asked? He may not want to do it. The band that I play in has a fiddle player who is widely regarded as one of the best of his generation, yet he tries to avoid leading workshops and teaching at all costs. (However, he will attend the fiddle workshop led locally by Tommy Peoples!)The only private pupil he has is the daughter of a fellow band member and he is only doing that as a favour.

He supplements his performing income by freelance computer programming and website design, saying, "I like to have some of my life when I am not wielding a bow!"

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 08:42 AM

Lou Killen [...] is conspicuously absent from the tutors list on the Newcastle degree course.

You do realize how old he is?

Aren't traditional musicians ever allowed to retire?

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 08:35 AM

I was thinking of a more structured course of study, rather than one-off instrumental workshops.

Ruth mentioned that Newcastle University offers short courses as well as the folk degree, but I can find no mention on its website. The EFDSS website has some impressively detailed bibliographies, but some more selective reading lists would be helpful.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:55 AM

Here is an example,
Lou Killen,the man lives in Gateshead,he is one of the foremost acommpanists on the concertina,he has had vast performing experience[both solo and with the Clancys]yet his name is conspicuously absent from the tutors list on the Newcastle degree course.
my opinion for what is worth is that work should be decided on merit,not on age.
when it comes to the Newcastle degree course,he would be someone who has a great deal to offer.,despite the fact heis not 21.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:45 AM

Howard plays an Anglo concertina,I think that concertina tutor is an English player.
Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 07:36 PM

Eeeeeeeeee, when I were a lad...down pit or up chimney...sixpence AND change back for t'bus!...bit o' respect...nowt but fields...I'm eighty-two, you know.
Ruth, respect has nothing to do with age,it involves manners, courtesy,humility,there are disreptful people of all ages,it appears there are one or two of them from that degree course,I seem to remember an older person was disrespectful to you at Sidmouth.
still, it would appear we now live in age,where the cult is youth,never mind the experience and wisdom that older people can give,todays mantra is youth we must encourage youth,never mind anybody else.
encouraging youth is laudable,but it is not very wise to do this and at the same time ignore the experience and acquired skills of older people.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Willa
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:00 AM

Howard
this event will be well worth attending.

http://www.darlingtonfolkmusicweekend.org.uk/

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 06:03 AM

I think the evidence is ever present. Look at the post grads on the folk scene. Too numerous to list.

Of course we still have the University of Life (Folk Campus), but for the big wide world, a recognised degree qualification is so much easier to present.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 05:10 AM

Indeed - I have done a fair bit of work with Matt this summer. He helps to run the Stream of Sound choir, who have done some great work at Sidmouth over the past couple of years, both in performance and in their workshops with young people.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 05:05 AM

I agree Ruth, I just happen to know Dan..... and he is a banjo player!

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 04:42 AM

"Special mention to Dan Walsh for achieving a first class degree."

And to Matt Price.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:50 AM

Here we go again!

Congrats to all the students who graduated this year, Special mention to Dan Walsh for achieving a first class degree. His dexterity on the 5 string banjo has to be seen to be believed.

I've booked quite a number of the undergraduates and graduates of the Newcastle course (I've also seen a fair number of them at other clubs either as performers or floorspotters). I perceive no more arrogance amongst this group than any other group of performers..... The stage presence and audience engagement skills are also probably on a par with those of all performers i.e. some good, some not so good.

Even as a folk club organiser I get Derek's point (sorry joke)!

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 07:36 PM

Eeeeeeeeee, when I were a lad...down pit or up chimney...sixpence AND change back for t'bus!...bit o' respect...nowt but fields...I'm eighty-two, you know...





By the way - yes, you can do shorter courses on the Newcastle course.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 07:03 PM

I met Derek Schofield at Glasson Maritime Festival,he knidly gave me a copy of the EFDSS magazine English Dance and Song,I would like to congratulate him on his editorship,and the excellent work he and Ruth and others are doing in revitalising EFDSS.Well done all.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 05:34 PM

poor old Derek,he could always take up trainspotting.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 01:34 PM

Poor old Derek. His position means he can't make jokes in public about folk music. I'm surprised he didn't know that.

Perhaps he should just have referred people to this page:

http://www.ceolupnorth.co.uk/etiquette.html

Read it down to the bottom - it even tells you how to degree with folk music degree students.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 12:44 PM

There are weekend courses the Wren Trust for example.

http://www.wrenmusic.co.uk/index.php

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 08:52 AM

Does Newcastle (or anywhere else for that matter) offer shorter courses? They need not necessarily lead to a formal qualification.

There must be others, like myself, who had no opportunity for this kind of thing when we went to university, and had no formal musical education, who would be interested in studying folk music and performance in more detail but can't afford the time or the money to take a four year degree course.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 07:00 AM

Tug The Cox wrote:-
"No mention of Spindrift, who delighted audiences at Sidmouth and Bideford, as well as working as unpaid stewards."

Could I add the recently-graduated-from-Newcastle group, Mother's Ruin? Their concert performance in support of the amazing Hot Club of Cowtown at the Broadstairs Festival last month was delightful, both in their musical skills and the wry humour of their skilful introductions.

Hear them at http://www.myspace.com/mothersruinband

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 07:37 PM

No mention of Spindrift, who delighted audiences at Sidmouth and Bideford, as well as working as unpaid stewards.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: GUEST,Graham O'Callaghan
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 07:24 PM

No one should question the integrity nor the quality of the Newcastle course. However, there have been on occasions a small number of students who have perceived their degree as a guarantee of future 'employment'so to speak, with all the related 'arrogance of youth' which can be associated with such an attitude. However, it must be said that this 'problem' can be found amongst graduates from many other universities where not every graduate is 'fit for purpose' for the workplace. Natural selection will prevail.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 07:11 PM

I do want to harness in the talents that the folk degree has manifested, what i would like to see is those students learning from us older folkies on presentation techniques,

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 04:42 PM

Vic, for once I agree with everything you say.
can I raise one more point,the importance of degree courses,is slightly less than it was 5 years ago,there is now so much good tuition available on the net,that the opportunity is there for enthusiastic musicians to reach a very high standard more easily than it was in the 1970s,it is not necessary to go on a degree course to become a skilled musician and skilled communicator/performer.
the degree course at NEWCASTLE is however a wonderful opportunity,for all aspiring musicians,who are lucky enough to get a place and long may it continue.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 12:46 PM

It is certainly true that today's young performers, given the correct advice and coaching, enjoy advantages that those who came into the music in the 1960s and 1970s could not have dreamed of. In spite of this, it still requires dedication on the part of the current young performers to reach the degree of technical skill that many of them have reached. Derek says that he has noticed "amazing talent that is in evidence amongst the Newcastle students and many other young performers." but that does not come about without many hours of practice and hard work.

Sadly, I would also have to say that there is some truth in the tendency to "overpower and take over existing sessions at Festivals and Clubs" that MC Fat mentions. Not observing the unwritten rules of session etiquette is not going to make you friends on the folk scene.

I would also have to say that as a folk club organiser, I have noticed a certain arrogance amongst a minority of Newcastle students and other young performers about the way they approach for folk club bookings. They will have to learn interpersonal as well as musical skills to make their way as folk music performers.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 12:20 PM

Derek .
I apologise for calling your remark bollocks,to stop any offence being taken, I will just say it is in my opinion nonsense,I have explained in my previous post the reason why it is nonsense and ill considered.
it is silly to talk along the lines of if they were back in the seventies etc etc,simply because if they had been they would not have enjoyed the advantages they enjoy now.
if you dont accept that,then the implication is that they are more talented,which cannot be proved anyway,and which In my opinion is doubtful,but is something we will never know.

Subject: RE: The Newcastle course-Vic Gammon speaks
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 11:36 AM

(sighs)
Oh, I do wish some people here would recognise a joke when they see it (I even put - 'it's a joke' in the text!) Lighten up!

Also, I do wish people would recognise the difference between fact and opinion. What I wrote was opinion. Vic Smith presented a couple of excellent examples that refute what I wrote, which is fine - I would certainly agree with Vic, and also say that I thought Matt's singing had improved considerably over the last 12 months. I did write in my original piece "some of the younger performers ... would benefit ..."

I knew that the remark about today's performers compared with those of the 70s would be contentious - the hope that it would stimulate rational discussion was wildly optimistic I fear.

As I wrote recently in a different thread, I always try and be polite in my postings and I wish others would do likewise.

Derek
who may be the editor of English Dance & Song but who was writing the original message and this follow-up in a private capacity!