does a lifted foot mean Stop?

Subject: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 03:20 PM

In my area, our way of doing music is all of us playing together.
When we get to the end of a song/tune, the way we let everybody know we're on the last round is that whoever started it will lift his foot a little bit (or shift it)

I've been wondering if this is a universal signal or whether it's a local thing and this seems like a good place to find out.

Do you all do this?

Thanks,
M

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Weasel
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 03:21 PM

Never heard of this in my life.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 03:23 PM

I once played in a band where the leader, the fiddler, would go 'round to each of us and lift his leg. I finally told him he looked like a male dog!

But yes, lifting or shifting a leg/foot or knee to signal imminent ending is standard here.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Darowyn
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 03:24 PM

It is reported that Ray Charles used to signal to his orchestra using signals made with his left foot.
I did not take notice to see if there was any particular code- it was just that you got fired if you missed a cue!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: phinque
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 03:24 PM

Either lift foot, raised guitar neck or some other "sign."

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Weasel
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 03:25 PM

Might it be useful in this thread to indicate where "here" is? I'm in Manchester, England

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Alice
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 03:26 PM

Yup, lift the foot at the last part of the tune to show you're ending.
Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: john f weldon
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 03:26 PM

Seen it a zillion times, esp with old-time bands. Stop end of chorus.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 03:34 PM

I'm in the middle of the US (rural Missouri)

thanks all..
Ebbie, that drop of hilarity is funny to picture (and I'm wondering if I could get one of our fiddlers to demonstrate so I can see it in action)

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Stewart
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 03:44 PM

There are many ways of signaling the end of a tune in a session.
Making eye contact with the other players is one way.
That's the way the pro players in performing groups do it.
But in a session where nobody is paying much attention
to the other players that doesn't work. So when most heads and eys
are glued to the floor, the raised foot seems best.

Or as someone told me, a raised foot is to indicate that the
guitar player finally got the right chords
and it's time to move on to the next tune or stop.

Another way to signal is to call out "last time"
or make some such audible signal. Some of us, myself included,
can't talk and play at the same time, so that's a problem.

I really think more subtle signals are best,
but everyone has to be attentive (not a bad thing).
At many sessions I've played at in Ireland,
where the level of playing seems much better,
this seems to be the way it's done.
At times when I've started a tune there,
and I get to the third time around,
I find that everyone is looking at me
to make the signal - a nod of the head
or returning eye contact. Raising my foot
seems sort of gauche under those circumstances.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 03:54 PM

Universal, at least among Bluegrass players to indicate "get ready for the end of the song." I have even seen videos of Tony Rice and John Hartford and other notables doing it.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:00 PM

Here in Virginia, lifting a foot to signal the end of a tune seems to be standard in all the sessions I've been to - bluegrass, old timey and Irish.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:02 PM

we use eye contact/nod (or saying a name) to give someone a break so that would be kind of a confusing way for us to wrap it up.

I'm glad to know it's not a Made Up thing..it kind of makes me nervous when people laugh at us for signalling that way and it's reassuring to know we're not letting our elders (and selves) fall into consistently doing something silly.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:08 PM

Normal practice in the British Isles.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:19 PM

Signaling of one kind or another is necessary if you're playing with others, different types of music have different types of signals. --people who laugh are betraying their ignorance--Think about this--orchestras have a conductor, whose only job is to signal.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:21 PM

Wyoming....we use it....usually foot is lifted to the rear, but sometimes a front kick...very small.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:22 PM

and..
I grew up understanding that a 'jam session' was when the musicians fed off each other and the next song/tune would be started by whoever started it..it might be somebody beside you, might be someone across the clump.

What do you all call the kind where everybody plays together but the play goes around the circle in order?
My name for it isn't very ladylike and I don't like calling it a 'jam'. It would be kind of handy to have another appropriate term to use.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:25 PM

M.Ted,
The ones who laugh are generally bluegrassers that are used to playing with people who are more 'bandlike'..and structured. The same song for most of the laughers is almost always the same length. If they want it longer, they play it again.
Different frame of reference more than ignorance, I think.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:27 PM

I have a photograph of my granpop at my aunt's wedding, where the family are standing in a row in the church porch. Granpop has his left leg raised. When asked why, he replied 'Well I dursn't let un go in church, 'twould've rattled down the pew.'

The raised leg may indeed be an indication of musical cessation, but not always...

LTS

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:34 PM

When calling a dance (and usually after having failed to clearly give the "two more times through the tune" signal, or having changed my mind after the fact) I've been known to step in front of the band and raise my leg to nearly horizontal, just to be sure the signal is "heard", especially if it's a large group.

:-)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:52 PM

We have developed a sophisticated system of foot lift based communication down here in Floribama. One person lifting a foot means "Last time around." A second person lifting his foot cancels out the first person's lift and can mean either "Whaddaya mean 'Last time'? Can't you count to three?" or "Now wait a minute, dammit! I just now figured out the chords! We've gotta play it one more time!" If a third person lifts his foot, it cancels out the second lift and usually means "Jim Bob is an idiot and needs to learn the tunes on his own practice time! We've played this damned tune enough already!"

Then there's also the matter of lifting intensity. A foot tentatively lifted is interpreted as "I think it would be a good idea if we stopped after this time around." A more emphatic foot lift usually means "This has gotten boring. We really need to stop because the bass player just fell asleep and if that bass fiddle hits the floor it's gonna make one helluva racket!" Lifting an entire leg generally means "If we don't quit so I can go to the restroom, someone's gonna have to get a mop!"

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 05:06 PM

The first (and most usual) photo I ever saw of the great Grand Ole Opry banjo player Uncle Dave Macon shows just him, seated,playing his banjo, but his right leg kicked up almost to the level of his right shoulder.

For years I just thought it was quaint high spirits, in connection with a wild banjo rendition. Then I learned the "end of tune" meaning, and was greatly disappointed at losing a cherished illusion. Oh, well!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 05:12 PM

:0)

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 05:16 PM

We just call it a session....sometimes it's who ever has a tune ready, sometimes it's a round the circle thing. Doesn't matter

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 05:16 PM

Most sessons I attend , its the Raised Foot' , but one mate tends to use a Quite Loud "HUP" as a finish signal !

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 05:28 PM

I can't help myself, I have to tell you this. The "lifted foot" makes me think of my dog Ralph whenever he encounters a bush, and of the senator when he encountered a men's restroom....

Sorry.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 05:29 PM

It is very hard to 'hup' when you're a wind player... the leg is the least used limb in sessions... particularly in the case of some people when it's their turn to go to the bar!

LTS

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 05:33 PM

all these high-hoistings sound exhausting!

ha..if I Hupped, everybody would probably think I was either just hollering or that I wanted to go faster.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 05:45 PM

its time to start worrying when the lifted foot,is lifted and put in your mouth,it means, stop,your music is crap,and you have no teeth left.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 06:09 PM

"Ebbie, that drop of hilarity is funny to picture (and I'm wondering if I could get one of our fiddlers to demonstrate so I can see it in action)"

Make sure he lifts his whole leg, Melissa! And kind of sideways.
***********
Understanding the lifted foot is sometimes tricky. I used to play with a guy who rocked from side to side, lifting his foot each time. You had to use your sixth sense.
**********
I've watched an Irish band in Juneau signaling the ending by just a tensed muscle in the thigh that lifted the bended leg very slightly. But that works only if you are all seated, I imagine.
****************
"One person lifting a foot means "Last time around." A second person lifting his foot cancels out the first person's lift and can mean either "Whaddaya mean 'Last time'? Can't you count to three?" or "Now wait a minute, dammit! I just now figured out the chords! We've gotta play it one more time!" If a third person lifts his foot, it cancels out the second lift and usually means "Jim Bob is an idiot and needs to learn the tunes on his own practice time! We've played this damned tune enough already!" Beedub

That seems awfully wordy to me. :) Here in Juneau, in a large group when one sees the leader give the 'stop' signal, that person shows a lifted foot to the rest of the band, or sometimes just back to the leader to indicate understanding.

Regarding the go-around -the-circle thing, I was used to it in Oregon so when I came to Alaska I instituted it in my group. They called it the "Ebbie" rule', which rather took me aback.

The rule was that you could either do your thing or you could pass or you could make a request of someone else in the group. It was a pretty good way to get a shy person involved.

(Pertinent to this discussion, a Russian once told me that in his country it is considered very rude if you don't do something when it's your turn, whether it's to sing or play or recite a poem. )

Nowadays we have a modified method- we just do it any ol' way we want.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 06:15 PM

ah..so I can call it an Ebbie Jam!

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 07:50 PM

Is there any kind of consensus emerging yet as to what regions and genres this is specific to?

I understand the lifted foot signal, but I'd say I've only experienced it with Old Timey musicians in America (and maybe with the Irish dance tunes, sure, but as played by Americans whose repertoire blends that and Old Time seamlessly).

As for me, I'd usually just shout out "YO!" during the last chorus, to wake everyone up!

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 08:09 PM

Bluegrass sessions in Edinburgh. I may have encountered it in other genres but that's the main one I've seen it in.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 08:26 PM

I think the significance of a lifted foot may depend on what's on the bottom of your shoe.











But, Bee-dubya-ell, I think you summed it up quite nicely!. LOL

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 09:03 PM

It's standard wherever I've played..Rhode Island, Michigan, West Virginia, Florida...

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 09:24 PM

Several bush bands here in Australia used a whistle to signal "last time around". I believe I noticed a whistle on recordings of at least one of the Irish groups playing during the 60s. Can't remember who.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 10:04 PM

I played bluegrass for a number of years before getting more into old-time and Celtic music, and I don't remember the foot lift being used as a signal in bluegrass circles. But bluegrassers usually use those "shave and a haircut" type endings, and anyone who's paying attention will quickly recognize the initial notes of that sort of ending lick and know the end's coming up fast. Since old-time and Celtic players don't usually incorporate any sort of ending, but just "chop it off", it's more important that everyone knows ahead of time that the end's coming up.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: eddie1
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 06:20 AM

The Fourth Commandment would appear to indicate use of the lifted foot as mandatory although the Fifth Commandment would appear to allow for varistions on this (Presumably the origin of the expression, "I'll take the Fifth!)
So shall it be, unless it isn't in which case allowing for frailty, or even clawhammerty, all will end in chaos.

Ten Commandments For Old-Time Music Sessions

I. Thou shalt not ever forsake the beat.

II. Thou shalt arrange thyselves in a small circle so that thou mayest hear and see the other musicians. Thou shalt listen with thine ears to the songs and attempt to play in accord with the group; also, open thine eyes betimes to look about thee, lest there be some visual sign someone is endeavoring to send thee. Thou shalt play softly when someone lifteth his voice in song, when playing harmony, and when thou knowest not what thou is doing.

III. Thou shalt play in tune. Tune thine instrument well, and tune it often with thine electric tuner, lest the sounds emanating from thine instrument be unclean.

IV. Thou shalt commence and cease playing each tune together as one, so that the noise ye make be a joyful noise, and not a heinous tinkling that goeth in fits and starts, for that is unclean, and is an abomination. Whensoever a musician sticketh forth his foot as though he were afflicted with a cramp in the fatted calf, thou must complete the rest of that verse, and then cease.

V. Thou shalt stick out thine own foot or else lift up thy voice crying "This is it !", or "Last time !" if thou hast been the one to begin the song, and it has been played sufficient times over. If the one who began a tune endeth it not by one of these signs, then the tune will just go on and on, like the Old Testament, until the listeners say, "Hark ! It all soundeth the same."

VI. Thou shalt concentrate and thou shalt not confound the music by mixing up the A part and the B part. Most songs, but not all, proceedeth according to the ancient law "AABB". But if thou sinneth in this regard, or make any mistake that is unclean, thou may atone - not by ceasing to play - but by re-entering the tune in the proper place and playing on.

VII. Thou shalt be ever mindful of the key the banjo is tuned in, and play many tunes in that key, for the banjo is but a lowly instrument, which must needs be retuned each time there is a key change.

VIII. Thou shalt not speed up or slow down accidentally when playing a tune, for it is an abomination. (See commandment I)

IX. Thou shalt not, by thine own self, commence noodling off on a tune the other musicians know not, unless asked or unless thou art teaching that tune, for it is an abomination, and the other musicians will not hold thee guiltless, and shall take thee off their computer lists, yea, even unto the third and the fourth generation.

X. Thou shalt have fun and play well.

Eddie

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 07:44 AM

In a pipe band, the big drum sounds a double beat to signal the last refrain.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: GUEST,Clive Pownceby
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 09:53 AM

The first person I ever saw do this - over 30 years ago was John Kirkpatrick when playing for country dances with Dingles Chillybom Band.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 02:51 PM

Is there a jazz equivalent to indicate the end of solos and back to the theme? Seems to me Krupa used a cowbell, though it might have been merely a coincidence (and he'd have been cued I presume by the bandleader). Raised feet and 'hup's' are common enough here on the Left Coast in all the sessions I've seen (but I'm not a player so don't know).

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Marje
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 03:02 PM

It's certainly common in areas where I've lived (southern England) to raise the foot to signal the end of the tune. Eye contact sometimes works, but only if there's a small number of musicians and they're all paying attention. The foot is more likely to be noticed by the inattentive player.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: GUEST,Ebor_fiddler
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 05:54 PM

I live in the frozen north (Yorkshire). Right foot raised is "Stop" and Left is "Change to the next tune" when playing for dancing. Just like you use the feet for when driving - right is brake and left is clutch!

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Allen in Oz
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 06:08 PM

Standard practice in my folk club experience here in Australia ( as with Alice in Montana )

AD

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: open mike
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 06:08 PM

when playing for (contra) dances, the next tune in the medley is usually signalled during the "b" part of the tune before it...
and the changes usually co-incide with particular dancers reaching
a certain position on the floor for progressive dances...if the band
expects to play 4 tunes, they (we) will change tunes when the head couple gets 1/2 way down the line, and again when they reach the bottom of the set. If the band has pre-agreed upon set of tunes,
the next tune will be designated by the title, or a nick name for it
for instance for the tune "smash the windows" the band member might just call out "smash"

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: treewind
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 06:17 PM

I supect Clive's right about John Kirkpatrick having some thing to do with this in England at any rate. Kevin is right when he says it's standard practice in much of Britain. I imagine it started with musicians not being able to speak while playing: some certainly have that problem.

Anahata

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 06:30 PM

In more professional circles the lifting of one leg whilst playing in a seated position is generally taken as an indication that the expulsion of extraneous bodily gasses is currently in progress.

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 06:36 PM

Sessions in Oz (well, Victoria, NSW and the ACT; even the Top End, when I was there) mostly just kept going until everyone decided they needed a drink, when I first got into instrumental music. Most of the music was British Isles and some US Old Time stuff and most of the players ended up in dance bands. Bands tended to use brackets of tunes so there was no need for such signals.

To counter the omnipresence of Irish music several of us started The Old Empire Band almost 30 years ago, under the leadership of an Adelaide bloke. The tunes were of the New Victory Band genre with similar instrumentation; the difference was that we all came from different parts of the country and had limited rehearsal. opportunity. There was also an open invitation for any instrumentalist to join in, so long as it wasn't a guitar or percussion.

The Adelaide contingent introduced the leg-raising to the rest of us, as the signal that we would stop at the end of that tune. With up to 40-odd players on-stage it was very useful and the use of the signal spread to other situations with similar scratch band performances.

Sessions usually (in my experience) still just play on, with enquiring glances to whoever started the most recent outbreak about whether they were going to change tune or relinquish initiation. Some sessions play tunes twice through while other play thrice through; in Oz, only those familiar with US Old Time practices tend to repeat tunes through many iterations and I never saw the leg raised signal when I played in South Carolina.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Tootler
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 06:43 PM

In most sessions I go to, the feet are usually firmly placed under a table (essential equipment for standing pints of beer on), so a raised foot would not be seen. The usual practice is either to agree the number of times through each tune in advance or for a fiddler or box player to call "Out" or "Change". Those of us with things in our mouths usually have difficulty signalling changes or endings

Subject: RE: does a lifted foot mean Stop?
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 06:52 PM

Tootler - I always found, when playing recorders and the like, that raising the blunt end of the instrument serves as an effective signal when necessary.