What is the process you use to work out chords

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 May 10 - 07:51 PM

That's exactly what I said in other words Don - pity that so many don't catch on... :-)

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 May 10 - 08:48 AM

Dick, I think you are forgetting some discussions we had on here some time ago about the difference between the mode that starts on note x and the mode in the key of x. Either that or you are not listening.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 10 - 08:10 PM

And that's not just "theoretical." That's the way your ear hears it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 10 - 08:05 PM

Just for fun.

Here's something else to think about that may cause someone to shriek and stamp on his hat:

Let us say you're playing a "power chord." Open fifth, say G and D. Even doublings of those two notes; every G and D on the fingerboard that your fingers can reach.

Hell, lets go even further. You've re-tuned your guitar so that when you play all six strings simultaneously, between open strings and fretted notes, there are only Gs and Ds. Okay? Got the picture?

A POWER chord!!

Now—suppose, at that point in the song, you happen to be singing—a B.

Between the voice and the guitar, that open fifth power chord is now a G major.   Or—if the sung note is a Bb, it's a G minor.

Let me put it this way:   if all of the instruments in an entire symphony orchestra are playing full blast, with some of the instruments playing Gs and the others playing Ds, one lousy piccolo playing either a B or Bb identifies that chord as either G major or G minor.

As Walter Cronkite used to say at the end of his newscasts, "And that's the way it is."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 10 - 07:23 PM

QUOTE
Richard, the modes ARE different. If you play only the white notes, C major scale, you are probably in the the mode you are in depends on the start note (D=Dorian, A=Aeolian), and a choice of 5 others).
The major key is just one of the seven possible scales/modes.

As a general rule, in neither case should you use a G7 chord, but a G instead, because the G7 contains notes which the ear expects to resolve to a C chord at the end of a phrase. Dominant 7th chords are suited to major and(harmonic) minor modes only, for which they were invented.
UNQUOTE

Ha! That's the technical reason that the Stradella bass 'fakes it' so well when you have a 'small bass' box. You can fake it with the Basic chord, and not the 7th version of that chord - the small boxes don't HAVE the 7ths anyway, but if someone somewhere in the group is playing the 7th as part of the melody, you have what the ear needs anyway! What you (the P/A player) are doing is playing the basic 'modal chord' which is the underlying basis of the 'Maj/Min structure' - these are just 'extensions' to word it one way! If the 'resolution' is needed/expected, or not! You're letting the others do the hard work playing the fancy bits!

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 10 - 01:13 PM

"I'd refer to the mixolydian with all the white notes as mixolydian of C, the dorian of white notes as the dorian of C, and so on"
this reminds me of the members of the flat earth society.
C dorian is c d eflat f g a bflat c,it contains two black notes,c mixolydian is c d e f g a bflat c,it contains one black note.
the mixolydian mode that contains all the white notes of the piano,is g mixolydian.
you can refer to it how you want but you are labelling it incorrectly,the rest of the musical world calls it g mixolydian

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 10 - 07:38 PM

A wise old musician (he happened to be in folk music, as a matter of fact) once told me, "You don't have to play a whole bunch of notes. Just make sure that the ones you do play are important."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 10 - 07:35 PM

Thanks, Foolestroupe! There is was all the time.

The prohibition of consecutive fifths was more of a didactic thing than something used in actual practice. Once the student gets the hang of writing harmony and polyphony rather than just a string of undulating parallel notes, he or she can pretty much do their own thing--knowing one helluva lot more about how music is put together than if they had just dove in clueless.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 May 10 - 07:01 PM

parallel fifths - now often called the 'power chord'...

During the common practice (previously referred to as the 'Classical Music') period, the use of consecutive fifths was strongly discouraged. This was primarily due to the notion of voice leading, which stresses the individual identity of the parts. Because of the powerful presence of the fifth above the fundamental in the overtone series, the individuality of two parts is weakened when they move in parallel fifths.

(The term parallel fifths is therefore misleading, because some consecutive fifths occur with contrary motion: from a true uncompounded fifth to a twelfth, for example. If parts move by oblique motion (for example, one part moving from a C to a higher C, and another part repeating a G higher than both of those Cs), the intervals are not considered to differ in the relevant way, so parallel fifths do not occur.)

In the course of the 19th century consecutive fifths became more common, arising out of new textures and new conceptions of propriety in voice leading generally. They even became a stylistic feature in the work of some composers, notably Chopin; and with the early 20th century and the breakdown of common-practice norms the prohibition became less and less relevant

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 10 - 06:59 PM

Doc Watson, eh?

Okay. I'm ready with that one. In 1964, I attended the Berkeley Folk Festival, which was complete with such luminaries as Sam Hinton, Joan Baez, Alice Stuart, Almeda Riddle, Mance Lipscomb, and Marais and Miranda, along with folklorists and ethnomusicologists Archie Green and Charles Seeger (the patriarch of the Seeger family).

And Doc Watson. Along with his late son, Merle.

Doc Watson conducted a workshop on guitar, and the room was packed, as one might expect.

Doc Watson set a lot of folks on their ears that afternoon. One fellow asked him how he could flat-pick fiddle tunes that fast. Doc responded, "Well, I practice scales at least a half an hour every morning."

With all the horrified gasps, the air was practically sucked out of the room.

("If I want to be able to do that, I have to practice scales!!????   Aaaaaugh!!!")

He used a number of fairly technical musical terms during the workshop, indicating that he knew one helluva lot more about music theory than anyone would have guessed (he being a folk musician and all that!). I don't recall his using terms like Dorian or Mixolydian, but he did mention modes, AND pentatonic scales at one point.

When asked about how to do alternating thumb picking patterns, Doc started out by saying, "It's a sort of arpeggio. . . ."

Then he said, with a grin, "Of course, I'm not supposed to know words like that."

####

No, I think abandoning the rather loose taboo (except in harmony classes*) about harmony lines (not just fifths) running parallel occurred much earlier that Debussy. More than likely when polyphonic forms of ensemble music gave way to performance by larger groups (orchestras), where it would not be possible for all of the instruments to be playing different lines. But in a sense, even in this case, rather than the basic work having a lot of parallel lines, the second violins may be "doubling" (paralleling) the oboes, etc.. The harmonies are already there in the basic composition. The doublings of instruments are for the purpose of "orchestral texture."

This is one of the reasons that something orchestrated by, say, Tchaikovsky, tends to be obviously Tchaikovsky. The texture of the sound, achieved through orchestration.

Don Firth

* And in my freshman theory classes, more than three parallel thirds in a row were a "no-no." The point was to teach harmony, not just how to write a whole bunch of block chords in a row.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 10 - 06:10 PM

I'd refer to the mixolydian with all the white notes as mixolydian of C, the dorian of white notes as the dorian of C, and so on. That way the name does not mislead as to the chords in the most likely chord sequences. All that those names tell you is the identity of the home note - and often that is a matter of opinion.

Surely, though, Don, once upon a time the parallel fifths were taught as simply being wrong. I forget who broke the mould. Could it have been Debussy?

But to come back to the topic - I try to use the chord that sounds best! I don't find that being told that the mode is the mixolydian of which the home note is so-and-so assists in that at all. Indeed I once knew a fiddler who extended that bad premise into telling musicians that things were in the key of ? when what she meant was that the tune started on the note of ?. It was most annoying.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:07 PM

I can't help but wonder what Doc Watson's take on Mixolydian modes and parallel fifths would be...

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 10 - 04:50 PM

Among other things, it's a matter of being able to talk to other musicians without having to make up a whole new language every time you have a conversation. I'm quite sure that same situation pertains in the legal profession as well.

True, the notes in a D tonic Mixolydian mode are the same as a G major scale. But riddle me this:   how would you refer to a Dorian mode, using A as the tonic note?

What defines a mode—or the more commonly used major and minor scales (which are modes, by the way)—is the sequence of steps and half-steps and where they come in the scale. It's not just a matter of terminology, it has to do with the structure of the mode.

An airplane hangar and a church are both buildings, but they differ in structure and in function. It doesn't aid communication to refer to one as the other. And it often indicates that the speaker doesn't really understand the difference.

"Am I not right that in classical music theory it was once taught that ascending parallel fifths were "wrong"?"

Let me put it this way, Richard:   Yes and no.

That is still taught in first year music theory. To learn the structure of harmony, students are given simple melodies which they are to write harmony parts for, usually four-part harmony. One could simply take a note in the melody and write a chord in that key that contains the note. In fact, one could—and beginning students often do—simply write a string of root-position chords, making sure that each chord contains the melody note at that point. Everything is parallel. When you play these exercises on the piano, they sound very "clunky," like nothing more than a series of chords—which is exactly what they are. That does not teach anything about harmony. And when a student turns in a paper like that, it comes back with so many red marks on it, it looks like it's bleeding.

The student has used no creative thought. And that, after all, is what music is all about. So—back to the old drawing board. . . .

The rule against parallel fifths, either up or down, applies to beginning harmony lessons. But like many of the other rules that beginning students of music theory are required to follow, this is loosened later on. As my first music professor put it, "Each one of these rules is derived from the experience of centuries of musicians and have to do with things that either worked or did not work. Once you have learned the rules, you will learn how to break them.   But when you do break them, you will know why you are breaking them."

I could explain this in much greater detail, but I don't have the time to write a textbook on harmony. Besides, there are plenty of good ones already out there.

The idea that music theory is nothing but a bunch of arbitrary rules that are there merely to inhibit the truly creative artist is, first of all, simply not true, and second, it's a convenient excuse for people who want to do something, but don't want to put in the time and effort to learn it.

And sad to say, I find that this is particularly true in the field of folk music. There is a difference between wanting to sing a bit while washing the dishes or swap songs with a few friends, and wanting to get up in front of an audience and perform. Especially for pay.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 10 - 03:29 PM

Ah, the different types of academia! I teach my law students that so long as they know the facts of the cases, and the legal principles they and statute set out, I am much more interested in their having a logical argument than being "right". In every disputed case there are lawyers on one side saying one thing, and lawyers on the other saying the opposite. "Because" is not a good answer.

Am I not right that in classical music theory it was once taught that ascending parallel fifths were "wrong"?

Do tell me - which notes in "D tonic mixolydian" are not in G major and vice versa?


On the Silkie, if you do want a C note there, I'd play a diad with two C notes and the G, slide the two C notes up to C#, and flip to an A to end the line on the D chord. Even if you sing the C, the C chord just feels wrong. There has to be what is notated as a key achange going on there. At the other end of the tune I do play a C chord as the relative major for the C note.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 10 - 03:05 PM

Well, Richard, let's put it this way:   you can call a D tonic mixolydian scale "G major" if you wish. But if you were to do so in any music school or conservatory, the prof would immediately correct you—or you're paper would be returned with a big, red mark on it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 10 - 09:28 AM

I also wouldn't play a blues A7 D7 and E7

I'd play A major (with occasional 6ths and 7ths) D (same) and then either E7 or E (same). I suspect it's because the blues scale is not the same as the normal scale. Certainly a blues harmonica has different notes in from a non-blues harmonica over the same nominal root, and I think the cross is different too isn't it?

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 10 - 09:22 AM

Well, Lox, I'd call it G. Which has a D chord in when you need it. As it happens, if I am going to play that song, I use a D/A diad not a D chord.

There do however seem to be some oddities about what fits to "Famous flower of serving men". If I play that where I usually do (the strings being GDGBCD - it's done with two capos) the melody falls all on white notes but a Gm chord can be played (on a guitar in standard tuning) pretty well throughout the song if I don't play the guitar part but leave it to the fiddle to play the tune.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Lox
Date: 07 May 10 - 08:21 AM

Richard

Play a blues A7 D7 and E7

Try and sing the scale of A Major over the first chord.

It won't fit.


Likewise.


Sing "she moved through the fair" in D.

It works over a D major chord yes?

Yes - but theres a problem ...

there is no C# in the tune, but there is C natural ...

So the Key isn't D major ...

So what is it?

Its modal - D Mixolydian to be precise.

The parent scale of which happens to be G Major.

But as the tonal centre of the tune is D, you wouldn't say that its in G Major as that would just be confusing.

So its in D Mixolydian. (D Major scale with a flat 7th)

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 May 10 - 08:09 AM

"Some records are so over-produced, busy and muddy that it can be difficult to hear exactly what's being played."

... not to mention the words....

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: pavane
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:09 AM

Guest (above), have you tried my program HARMONY? I think it does a reasonable job of adding fairly simple chords (including to modal tunes). But it doesn't attempt the more complex chords with added 7th, 9th, 11th or 13ths - these are usually dependent on the style of the song (Jazz, Folk, Classical etc).

Nor does it attempt harmonisation in the strict technical sense.
I posted a link earlier.

I am not familiar with Chordie.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 10 - 04:46 AM

There are always people who are afraid of education. Ignorance is strength and all that sh!te.

Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it isn't worth knowing.

The error-ridden chords spewed out by Chordie and all the tab sites are submitted by people who don't understand enough of the theory to see why their transcriptions don't hold water.

The OP asked how people work out the chords to songs. Well, many people do it by applying theory to work out what's going on in a song. Some records are so over-produced, busy and muddy that it can be difficult to hear exactly what's being played.

If one is working out chords based just on top-line melody, well then there are sometimes a range of chord choices that can be made to colour the accompaniment. Theory helps you make choices that will make sense to other musicians with whom you may wish to play.

Personally, I think it's a pretty good thread.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: pavane
Date: 07 May 10 - 04:05 AM

It is very easy for anyone to say, of something complex that he does not understand, or will not take the time to master, (e.g. Calculus, Relativity) that it is rubbish (or stronger). That does not make his statement true!

Why should improvisation be "instinctive" - are we all born with an instinct for harmony? No, it is learned, either formally (from books etc) or informally (by listening to others).

The 'theory' is there so that we can pass on the acquired knowledge to others.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 10 - 11:55 PM

Okay, Richard. Different tune then.

But in mixolydian mode based on a D tonic, that C# clashing with the sung C would sound really sour.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 May 10 - 10:06 PM

"Did he stop to think about modes and mixolydian scales ? "

No - because as the oriental martial artists say - he had forgotten everything he knew.

In order to understand that, you need to understand why - in some disciplines - after going thru all the ranks and elevating thru the black belts, the master wears a white belt - same as the beginner.

The idea is that, the master 'forgets all he has learned' and attempts to think with the open uncluttered mind of 'the beginner' - only then can the master really be creative, for his mind is clear, not cluttered with lots of conflicting 'rules'.

As the film character said when asked 'what colour is your belt' 'colour not matter, just use belt to hold up pants'

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 10 - 07:56 PM

No, I don't sing that C there.   If I did I'd probably use a pull-off to go down from the major to the minor.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 10 - 07:00 PM

". . . there is no harm in understanding,what you are doing"

Exactly!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 06:42 PM

yes you are right,but there is no harm in understanding,what you are doing,it cetainly helps if you are teaching

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 06 May 10 - 06:23 PM

Dick, the point is that it's all instinctive (or should be)

You can't explain how to improvise, either you can do it or you can't.

I saw one of the most amazing impromptu musical gatherings ever in a small cafe in Miami about 12 years ago, when Melanie (yes, that Melanie)was joined on stage by Martin Simpson for a couple of songs.

Martin didn't have a clue what the songs were, he had never heard them before, but he played an accompaniment which was absolutely sensational.

Did he stop to think about modes and mixolydian scales ?

Did he f**k

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 10 - 06:09 PM

Way back when, I had all sorts of people ("folkies") telling me that if I wasted my time trying to learn a bit of music theory, which, they told me, was a bunch of "pompous claptrap," I would be bound by a lot of arbitrary rules and never be able to play folk music.

Turned out I was not "bound by a bunch of arbitrary rules" at all. I learned that a whole lot more things were possible than I thought. Things that had never occurred to these folks. And a funny thing started happening:   not long after I began applying some of what I was learning, they were sitting there, watching me carefully, and trying to copy my accompaniments.

I can improvise. No sweat. But I like to think a bit about my guitar accompaniments and work out something that is appropriate to the particular song, not just sit there and hack away at chords.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 05:48 PM

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Murray MacLeod - PM
Date: 06 May 10 - 05:38 PM

..."What a load of pompous claptrap?????

I couldn't agree more, absolute bollocks imo.

Any musician who knows his instrument just goes for it when improvising, he doesn't give a shit about modes or mixolydian scales, his ear and his natural talent tells him what to play, and he knows instinctively where the notes are on his instrument.

This is possibly the worst Mudcat thread ever
ha ha ha ha, so when you improvise you pay no attention to the melody or the chord structure you just play anything,now that really is bollocks

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 10 - 05:44 PM

Not improvising, Murray. Arranging.

A somewhat different ballgame.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 06 May 10 - 05:38 PM

..."What a load of pompous claptrap?????

I couldn't agree more, absolute bollocks imo.

Any musician who knows his instrument just goes for it when improvising, he doesn't give a shit about modes or mixolydian scales, his ear and his natural talent tells him what to play, and he knows instinctively where the notes are on his instrument.

This is possibly the worst Mudcat thread ever ...

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:39 PM

What a load of pompous claptrap?????

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:34 PM

none of which alters the fact that if you want to improvise againgst a dominant 7 chord[eg g7] one option is to use the mixolydian scale based on the root note of that dominant 7 chord.,so to improvise around a g7,one option is to take the notes of the g mixolydian scale.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 10 - 03:51 PM

Richard, in the first line of "Silkie," on the word "nourris," the syllable "nour-" occurs on an E, immediately followed by "-ris" on a C. So unless you want to change chords very fast (and at an awkward point in the line), the best chord to use is the C because it harmonizes with both the E and the C. Otherwise, you do wind up singing a C against the C# in the A chord.

At least in the melody I'm talking about. Your mileage may vary.

In the mixolydian mode base on D as the Tonic note, there is no C# in the scale.

And the choice of the C chord over the A major at that point in the melody (and at a couple of other points) is dictated not by some arbitrary rule hatched up by a hard-nosed, humorless music professor, it's because it sounds right, whereas the A does not.

As I said, I'm not making this up.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: GUEST,JonR
Date: 06 May 10 - 01:25 PM

Pavane is quite right, "dominant" means "5th note of the scale" (like "tonic" means 1st and "subdominant" means 4th).
The well-known "dominant 7th" chord type is simply the type of chord you get by adding a 7th to the dominant (V) chord of a MAJOR scale (or V of harmonic minor).

In G mixolydian mode, however, the true "dominant 7th" chord is Dm7 - because Dm is the dominant chord. But that's gonna confuse a whole lot of people! Best just call it the "v" ("five") chord, or even "minor five" to be clear.

IOW, the phrase "dominant 7th" is ambiguous, and depends on context.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 12:39 PM

stop talking bollocks

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: pavane
Date: 06 May 10 - 11:28 AM

But g7 isn't the "dominant 7th" of the mixolydian mode, it is a 7th chord based on the "tonic".` No problem with calling it G7, but the dominant (Note) would be D.

If you are modulating from one key to another key or mode, then you need to update the terminology accordingly. The point is that your chords should contain notes contained within the scale you are currently using. (Note that there are always exceptions!).

What you actually call them may depend on the mode or key - there are many instances where the same notes make a chord which is called different names depending on the key. Counting from C, 7, 9, 11 and 13 are NOT 7, 9, 11 and 13 in the myxolydian mode. You can call a chord C7#9(b13) for ease of reference to a guitarist, perhaps, but that may not be its correct name within the mode.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 10:48 AM

so if you are in the key of c the dominant 7,is g7,if you want to improvise around this chord the g mixolydian mode is an option,the g mix mode is gabcdefg,the chord of g7 is gbdf,the chord of g9,is gbda,the chord of g6 is gbde.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 10:36 AM

pavane; if youwanted to improvise around a dominant chord
Improvising on Dominant Chords

Improvisation on dominant chords is maybe the first to be learn by improvising musicians. Dominant chords are frequently embellished by all kinds of extensions so any musician must be familiar to the modes he/she would play on them.

• The blues scale may be played on chords that include the 9th and the 11th and on the 7#9 chord.

• The most popular mode on 7,9,(11, 13) is the mixolydian mode . For instance, on a C9 chord you may play C mixolydian (the 5th mode of the F major scale).

• The half - whole tone scale may be played on 7b9 and 7#9 chords with a major 6th. On C7b9 and C7#9, try C 1/2, 1.

• Whole tones scales may be played on 7#11 chords like C whole tone on a C7#11 chord.

• Phrygian major can be played on 7b9 chords with a minor sixth. On a C7b9b13 chord, you can try C phrygian major (the 5th mode of F harmonic-minor).

• Mixolydian b6 also works on 9b13 chords. Try on C9b13 C mixolydian b6 (the 5th mode of F melodic-minor).

• Superlocrian works on 7#9 and 7#9b13 (altered chords). On C7#9(b13), you can try C superlocrian (the 7th mode of C# melodic-minor).

• Lydian b7 may be played on 7,9#11 (or b5) chords. On C7,9#11, you can play C lydian b7 (the 4th mode of G melodic-minor).

In conclusion, we've got the blues scale, a diatonic mode, the two symmetrical scales, a harmonic-minor mode and three melodic-minor modes. Musicians play so much on dominant chords so they get used fast to all their extensions.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: pavane
Date: 06 May 10 - 10:22 AM

I did say GENERAL rule. And I don't think a mode can be built around a chord.

What would you call the "dominant 7th" if you are using pure mixolydian (White notes, scale starting on G). If the "dominant" is D, i.e. the fifth note of the scale, you surely don't want a D7 chord, which has a sharp in it (a note not in the scale), and neither do you want a G7 instead of a G?

There is also a mode based on the scale and start note of C which is NOT the same as the Major key, though it might look like it. Ionian, I think from memory.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 08:03 AM

don firth is correct,another alternative is to play an A power chord[AE]

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 08:01 AM

Pavane,how about the mixolydian mode,this mode is built round the dominant seventh chord.
you said,"Dominant 7th chords are suited to major and(harmonic) minor modes only, for which they were invented."
I think you should add to that comment the Mixolydian mode,this is the major scale with a flattened seventh.
to answer the original question here is alitle about chord substitution dominant seventh chords can be substituted sometimes by minor chords based on the fifth note of the dominant seventh chord,they can also be substituted sometimes by dominant 11 chords,it depends to some extent on the melody note,the best way to decide if it is right is your ear.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: GUEST,JonR
Date: 06 May 10 - 05:29 AM

In answer to Richard, who said:

"all the white notes is C major or A minor scale. It can't matter which order they come in"

- Then how do you know whether it's C major or A minor? ;-)

Answer that, and you'll have an idea of why modes matter (or, OTOH, don't).

IOW, what about a tune that uses all the white notes, but starts and ends on Dm? Is it "in C major", or "in A minor"? Or is it "in D minor"?
Or is it - as us overeducated folk might say - "in D dorian mode"? ;-)
(NB: you don't have to care. It's only words...:-))

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: buddhuu
Date: 06 May 10 - 05:14 AM

Modes are certainly more than fantasy. I'd say they are of particular importance when trying to come up with appropriate back up to traditional session tunes.

I have a fair knowledge of music theory, including modes, but I still don't trust myself to play guitar in an ITM session. If, for example, the 'A' part of a tune is in a plain major key but the 'B' part is modal I can easily get caught out.

For most songs the basic chords are pretty simple, and it probably is true to say that the majority of songs in a major key can be covered by a common progression, so that's a good place to start your trial-and-error.

I, IV, V7 is probably most used - certainly it'll get you through the bulk of blues songs. *

I, vi, IV, V runs a close second and will cover most 50s rock and roll that doesn't fall under the I, IV, V7 umbrella. Certainly works for most doo-wop stuff! *

Any other chords will probably also be from the set included in that key, or there may be the odd passing chord - sometimes used to remove a clash between a melody note and the chord that would otherwise be held over that note. This can be a consequence of the kind of modal situation described earlier in the thread.

EZfolk.com has a great, simple chart showing the chords that occur in each key.

Chords will sometimes not sound quite as played on recordings because many artists will use inversions, substitutions and extended chords. Also, they may play in unusual open tunings that can make chord voicings sound pretty different. But the basic underlying progression, with all frills and affectations removed, is likely to be a standard progression built on the chords shown in that chart.

A friend of mine who gave me my early guitar lessons about 35 years ago used to say "Don't worry about anything that's not plain major or minor. The rest of it is just jazz."

Looking back he was dumbing it down for me with tongue in cheek (he's a good jazz player!), but it's pretty good advice when it comes to working out the basic chords by ear. At heart they will be simple.

A basic version of a song will usually work just fine with a major or dom7 chord, even if the actual chord played in the record that you can't figure out is a 13th chord.

Get the meat right. The exact seasoning will vary.

And for heaven's sake, don't accept chords taken from Chordie etc as gospel. The majority are innacurate - in some cases just plain wrong - although they can be a helpful place to start if you're really stuck.


(* In examples above, upper case = major chords, lower case = minor)

[/ £0.02]

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:39 AM

Silkie - Opening notes DDF#E. Chord sequence D going to A on the E note. Might or might not be the Baez tune, but it's the same as other singers use around here and the one my late wife used.

Modes - (I'm still in grumpy mode) all the white notes is C major or A minor scale. It can't matter which order they come in.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Sugwash
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:31 AM

To paraphrase a quote in Pete Seeger's 5 String Banjo tutor:

"I know about modes, but not enough to hurt my playing"

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: pavane
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:16 AM

Richard, the modes ARE different. If you play only the white notes, C major scale, you are probably in the the mode you are in depends on the start note (D=Dorian, A=Aeolian), and a choice of 5 others).
The major key is just one of the seven possible scales/modes.

As a general rule, in neither case should you use a G7 chord, but a G instead, because the G7 contains notes which the ear expects to resolve to a C chord at the end of a phrase. Dominant 7th chords are suited to major and(harmonic) minor modes only, for which they were invented.

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: pavane
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:08 AM

I stick the tune, in abc format (or from a MIDI if it is just the melody), into my program HARMONY and it does the rest for me. That's the reason I wrote it in the first place.

And it will play you the result, to check.

Get it from my site to try for free

Subject: RE: What is the process you use to work out chords
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 10 - 09:16 PM

Richard, if the tune you are using for "Silkie" is the same one that Joan Baez sang on her record, I think you'll find that the A chord you recommend is going to "clank" pretty badly, because on the first change, the note being sung is C, which is not in the A chord (A-C#-E). In the Mixolydian mode in which the melody is set, if you're singing it based on D as the tonic, there is no C# in the key.

You might be able to get away with an Am (A-C-E), but not an A major, especially at the points where you'd be singing a C and playing a C# in the accompaniment!

The otherwise major scale with the flatted 7th is what defines it as Mixolydian mode.

I'm not making this up. It's not just my opinion. Some five years of formal study of music theory and music history.

Don Firth

P. S. And modes are not just a "religious invention."