what does Tone Deaf sound like

Subject: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 06:27 PM

..from the inside?

I know I could look online and find all sorts of semi-scientific theories, but I think what I really want to know is why music would sound good to 'tone deaf' folks (using the term as a broad generality)
I'd like to know what people here think about how to help them Hear..or whether you think it's a hopeless cause.

Also, what's it called when it's timing/rhythm instead of tone?

Thanks,
M

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 08:14 PM

Does music sound good to "tone deaf" folks?

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Peace
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 08:17 PM

I have a good and old friend who's never been able to carry a tune--not even in a bucket. He loves music. I don't know why.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 08:27 PM

My dad was tone deaf and he loved music. His problem was that he couldn't tell how to match what he sang to what others were singing OR the way the tune went in his head. The problem wasn't his hearing, it was the hearing/voice control interface. As in "That's not the right note, but do I go up or down, and how far?" He knew something was off, but not how to fix it. I'd guess he could tell when music he listened to was 'off' or 'on' too.

Every now and then when I'm singing on my own and I don't know a tune very well, I'll go off the rails and lose it. I can think for a bit and get back on track. My dad was NEVER on track. I can also (and I've been told this is difficult) sing 'tone deaf' on purpose. The main reason for doing this is to be silly or drive people nuts.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 08:28 PM

I think it does sometimes, McGrath.

Think about how many times you've overheard somebody singing along tonelessly with mainstream radio gunk.
(Plus, if it was standard to have good musical ears, would stores and such be able to get away with constantly blaring such awful stuff?)

I'm trying to know how to help a kid who absolutely loves playing and singing.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 08:41 PM

Jeri,
That makes it sound like some kind of Tonal Dyslexia. I never thought of it like that (the only comparison I could come up with was 'color vs b/w')

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: terrier
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 08:43 PM

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=92572&messages=41
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=90541&messages=6
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43337&messages=7

You could start with these threads and go on from there.

If I sing sans instrumentaion I find myself drifting off key, so does that mean I'm tone deaf?
One could argue that it is just a matter of training to understand sounds perceived, but that doesn't seem to work with a lot of people.

'why music would sound good to 'tone deaf' folks (using the term as a broad generality)'
Different genres of music don't always sound 'good' to everyone. Not every one can understand why any one would want to sing 'unacompanied
folk songs', but that doesn't mean they're tone deaf!
'Conditioning', what we hear is what we are, so the results are going to be different the whole word over.

Also, what's it called when it's timing/rhythm instead of tone?
Not listening! Maybe, but some people realy do seem to have difficulty with grasping the notion of timing and rhythm.

When I was a kid at school, anyone who couldn't sing in tune was labled 'groaner' and nothing was offered to help these individuals. Maybe 'tone deafness' is just a product of my generation?

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 08:44 PM

I understand that genuine tone deafness is extremely rare and that most people who want to and are prepared to put in the work are perfectly capable of singing - it's just that it comes easier to some people that others.
At the risk of being called 'finger in ear', the centuries old, world-wide technique of cupping the hand over the ear really works I've tried it and I've seen it happen many times.
Only a start - but a good one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Little Robyn
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 09:08 PM

My Dad was tone deaf - the sort that couldn't hold a tune in a bucket.
My Mum wasn't - she sang in a choir at church.
I can sing in tune, hold a tune against a harmony and sing a harmony, with or without music.
My next sister is almost tone deaf - she just loves singing, especially the hymns on radio or TV, only she's likely to be doing parallel 4ths or 5ths and she thinks she's on the tune.
The next sister sings in tune - until I try to put in a harmony and then she's lost.
The last sister can sing in tune and hold the tune against a harmony, tho she doesn't do the harmony herself.
My first brother doesn't do music.
But the baby of the family (now in his 40s) is a musical genius and has been since he was a toddler. He had perfect pitch to the extent that people singing or playing off key caused him pain. I think he can deal with that OK now. He has made a career in music as a musical director here in NZ, for shows like Evita or Chess or Sound of Music etc. You can see him here.
His son also has perfect pitch.
At least if you're tone deaf you don't care - you don't know that you have a problem!
Robyn

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 09:09 PM

JimC,
Doesn't the cupped ear thing work for sort of concentrating the hearing (and muting the outside riff-raff) so the person singing can hear themselves without the confusion of outside voice/sound?

Would it really give positive assist for a person that was off while the rest were carrying key/pitch?


(in my area, music is done as a group..all of us together. That's not going to change and I'm trying to find gentle, unobvious ways of helping some who lack good musical instincts)

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: terrier
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 09:55 PM

Would it really give positive assist for a person that was off while the rest were carrying key/pitch?
No. That would merely amplify their own voice at the expense of hearing the other singers who were singing in tune. This is not a simple solution question. My strong belief is that the person/s in question would benefit from working with a smaller group, say three or four singers, who then, as a small group, could explore and practice the challenge of singing together and hopefully would gain a better understanding of the dynamics involved.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 10:41 PM

I agree that it's not a 'simple solution question', terrier.

This is the best place I can think of for getting input from people who have mingled with music and I am confident that the subject will turn up some useful tidbits for me.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Gweltas
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 11:24 PM

When I was a school girl (many moons ago!) the few kids in our class that were tone deaf were labelled "crows" by our singing teacher and told to stand in the back row and mime the words!! Sadly, no attempt was made by the teacher to assist them to be more tuneful!! Looking back on it now I realise how cruel it was for the teacher to label those children as "crows" opposite their peers ......... who of course, took full advantage of the situation and teased them quite a bit.
My late father was tone deaf and on the rare occasions when he burst into song it didn't matter what song he sang, his own unique off key melody and rhythm was applied !! We weren't very encouraging either and a chorus of groans and protests would greet his efforts, although this didn't upset him in the slightest ! Fortunately, his three daughters inherited their ability to sing in key from our mother, who had a lovely singing voice.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Melissa
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 01:09 AM

Music was fun for my classmates. We got to choose which book we wanted to use and which songs (most of the time) It was comfortable, secure and something we liked.

I worked at camp for several summers. We did a lot of singing with the campers and each other. It was comfortable, secure and just part of being at camp.

Gweltas, you got me wondering how often monotone is tied with lack of confidence and/or insecurity.
It takes a certain boldness to put big enough intervals between notes.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Melissa
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 01:15 AM

..forgot to tie that in by saying that my class/camps were tuneful.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: GUEST,Top hat
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 02:26 AM

I have noticed, that when I give some people a starting chord, like "C", they will start to sing in the key of "F" (which is the sub dominate of "C") I then learn, that if they might sing in "C", to give them the chord of "G" to start.
I have a good sense of rhythm, but can't dance a lick. Am I rhythm deaf?

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 02:38 AM

I forget who it was but I read that very, very seldom is anyone totally tone deaf- the writer made the point that if you were tone deaf, you would speak in a monotone interspersed with occasional and random squeals.

As a teacher, he found that if he sounded a note repeatedly to the "tone deaf" one and waited until the person 'got' it, the person inevitably did, that by going up or down and past the note they always knew it and came back.

He said that most of us don't know why we can sing in tune without difficulty but that the person who is labeled tone deaf simply needs to 'learn' it. Kind of like being a good speller- some of us are and don't know why. Others have to study.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: terrier
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 07:47 AM

Some people study music for years and become proficient at an instrument, being able to play their instrument from music, but take away the printed music and they still cannot 'hear' sounds as others do and therefor cannot 'join in'. This forum has many threads asking for the chord sequence to this song or that song. To someone who can 'hear' the music and is able to work out the chords, it's difficult to understand what other people are hearing who can't work out the chords for themselves. Whilst I understand that confidence is required to get up and sing in public, that doesn't explain the difference of how sounds are perceived by the individual. How is it that people with no formal musical training at all can automatically play the chords that others find elusive?
I know many people who have been singing at sessions/clubs etc. for many years who seem to have bags of confidence, but who still cannot sing in tune with other people and have difficulty in starting a song because they can't find the 'right note'. The fact that they may have sung the song a hundred times in the past doesn't seem to help them to go back to the note they used last time.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: john f weldon
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 08:04 AM

Tone Deafness is a matter of degree. On a scale of 0 to 10, I'm usually about a 3. Practicing & playing along to recordings can bring me up to a 6. A few beers can bring me down to a 1. Singing is hopeless, especially singing along with others. Playing with others can be okay, but I usually watch their hands as well as listen.

When I was a little kid the teacher told me to mouth the words silently when the class sang, I was so off-pitch.

However, being no good at something hasn't stopped me.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: GUEST,Callingbird
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 08:22 AM

I once did a workshop with Frankie Armstrong and she demonstrated to some people there ,who believed they were tone deaf, that infact they were just as capable of holding a tune as the next person.

Unless someone has a hearing impediment or have suffered brain damage it is quite possible to teach them how to sing in tune.

It was the most amazing workshop.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 09:22 AM

good comment ,calling bird,a good starting point is to find a persons natural vocal range,then get them to sing slowly to an instrument,singing different intervals,singing half tones etc singing chromatic scales.
once a singer finds a song he/she is comfortable with,find your starting note,make anote of it and use it when you sing in public.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 09:43 AM

My brother is Dyslexic (NOT a condition that was recognised when we were kids) and was a classic "Couldnt carry a tune in a Bucket" case .
My SiL was a Church Choir singer , and has managed to get my Bro a good enough singer to now be a mainstay of the church choir .
So its a case of encouragement an practice !

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 09:46 AM

They sound like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOvnM0ybyLA


terrier, you could float this version by Jeff at 3 Stags - maybe he'd react differently??

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 11:04 AM

I am given to understand that the ability to perceive and reproduce relative pitch can be enhanced by repeated one-to-one recognition exercise with a trusted person

Play one note. Play another. Ask which was the higher. Repeat.

Get subject to sing one note. Play one. Ask whether it was higher or lower. Repeat.

Play note. Ask subject to sing it. Correct (nicely) as necessary - until it is right. Repeat.

Then repeat the last part with two-note intervals.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: terrier
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 11:48 AM

Mr H, that's the stuff of nightmares, don't do it again,ahhhhgh!

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Melissa
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 01:26 PM

good stuff, thanks.

Now, how to translate it into the gentle, unobvious way..
Any ideas?

I already sing along with him (partly for him, partly so everybody else can hear where we are) and pretty much stick with suggesting the same few songs (which means we've got repetition)

Is there a key-change trick to try?
Maybe he's trying keys that don't fit his voice.
Any suggestions on which direction I should move the key in an effort to find him?

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 03:54 AM

I had a friend who had been told at school that she "would never sing"... once i taught her the 'old folkie hand cupped to ear trick' and she LISTENED to herself more clearly & obviously, she DID improve a lot...

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: stallion
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 04:13 AM

Well Melissa the others here might call me stupid but i had the problem tuning a guitar to pitch pipes I resolwed it by resting my teeth on the body of the guitar and feeling the resonance through my teeth and it worked (I am very deaf anyway (75% hearing in one ear and 25% hearing in the other)and I suppose it opened up all my senses so after a number of years practice I didn't need the guitar and now sing un accompanied with a couple of others (the guitar playing hasn't improved in forty years but the singing has come on leaps and bounds) Believe me if I could do it anyone can. When I was 9 years old the teacher went around the class and asked us all to sing a nursery rhyme, we were marked on that performance for a grade for that years school report I got 0 out of 10 for music! It depends on how desperate you are to learn and how patient and dedicated are your teachers, I have had three big teachers, in the early years Jim McFadyen and John Grice and laterly Martin Bartlett from whom I have had an enormous amount of encouragement and support - and the odd grimmace and the rest is time, will power and tape recorders and oodles of practice, "use it or lose it"

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 04:55 AM

You're only tone deaf if you can't hear the difference between "God Save the Weasel" and "Pop goes the King"! Everyone else who sings out of tune is just having intonation problems.

For the great multitude of strugglers (I'm one myself)who are not tone deaf, but still hit clinkers from time to time, there's been some helpful advice in this thread. Now here's my two penn'orth.

We often hit wrong notes because we're trying to sing in an impossible key.   Each of us has a vocal range, determined partly by our natural endowment and partly by our level of training. And within that range, there's a comfort zone, where the notes can be produced with minimal effort. Untrained singers (that's most of us, folks) usually have narrow ranges, and even slimmer comfort zones. So, if we start a song too high, or too low, sooner or later we'll need a note that's out of reach.   At this point, we may quit and apologise. Or we may grab a note at random and hope it fits, or slide into another key until we break down again. The results are usually embarrassing.

So, it's vital to discover the limits of your vocal range, and your comfort zone. If you play the guitar, or some similar instrument, it can help you do this. First, play scales or familiar tunes on it and sing along with them until you run out of voice. That should tell you where your limits are. Then, choose a key for each song that puts all its notes within your range, and as many of them as possible in your comfort zone. It's likely that some songs you love won't fit into your range, whatever key you pitch them in. (But if you really like the tunes, you can always try arranging them as instrumental solos.)

Having found your key, you need to locate the correct starting note. Some songs make this easy for you. They begin on what schooled musicians call the "tonic" of the key the song is pitched in.   For those who learned the sol-fa method in school, it's "doh". Guitarists usually think of it as the root note of the song's home chord. Whatever you call it, it's easy to find - once you know what you're looking for.

However, plenty of songs start on notes other than the tonic/doh/root. These are not so easy to grab first time. And if you start singing on the wrong note, while strumming the right chord, you may find yourself singing in one key and playing in another, with interesting results. So, use the guitar to remind yourself of the starting note. Better still, work out a simple guitar phrase which leads naturally into the first note you're going to sing.   Then develop this phrase into a break you can play between verses, to give you that cue every time you resume singing.

These two tips have helped me a lot – although, like most of us, I still have the occasional vocal disaster. I hope they are helpful to others.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 05:14 AM

Yes Mike, agreed there has been a lot of confusion here between tone deaf....ability to hear tonal differences, and ability to hold a pitch. I you sing out of tune, and know it, you're not tone deaf.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 05:23 AM

Rhythm, visuals, adjacent audience, and these days the physicality of sound systems all give an experience that we all appreciate (or hate). Most of us have the enhancement of the tonal cadences and the rich harmonies, and we should rejoice in that.

And I well remember several people who were hopeless at singing acapella to an audience, but put them in a shanty chorus (eg) the voice was sonorous beyond belief. Adrenaline tightens all muscles in the fight or flight syndrome. The larynx is a muscle so it too becomes twitchy, but it is not tone deafness.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Melissa
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 05:35 AM

I used 'tone deaf' because it seemed like a good term. What I really meant was "mostly droning, occasionally hitting notes spot on, not very pleasant to listen to due to apparently not being able to carry a tune in a bucket" which seemed unnecessarily wordy.

Singing the same song over and over in different keys is something I can do with him that won't give a rude "you sound like hell and it's time for us to either fix it or for you to give up" impression.
I'm trying to be good to the guy and was looking for suggestions on how to help him without being too obvious.

Thanks,
M

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 11:05 AM

I go to the library every couple of weeks. Whenever I see a book about the brain or neurology in the new books section, I check it out.

One of them (no, I can't tell you which) said that there is no such thing as a tone deaf person. To be tone deaf, a person would be able to hear, let us say, a barking dog and cooing baby, yet not be able to tell which is which. That just doesn't make sense.

What most people mean by 'tone deaf' is a person who hears a musical tone and can't duplicate it by singing. That doesnt mean they don't hear the tune.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 02:03 PM

My best friend was one of those told by a teacher that he couldn't sing, in the classic bad music teacher way. He can hold a tune, and his voice is not unpleasant. He prefers to sing punk type stuff he has written himself in my car, not in public. He does not sing carols in the college carol service we attend each year. They are always the same, so he ought to know them.

I suspect that starting off with a Carl Orff style method might help. Two notes, the ones used to call "Coo-ee" - if you want to be a real key eventually, G and E, used in call and response, extended to A, and then B and low D, giving a pentatonic scale as note recognition improves. Or any suitable pentatonic scale in the pitch suitable for the singer.

Penny

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 05:03 PM

Anybody who can talk can sing and anybody who can walk can dance. That's an African saying.
Develop your speaking voice ( listen to someone like Liam Clancy speak and then listen to him sing).Try to speak the words of a song niicely while bearing the tune in mind. Then try humming the tune.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 05:57 PM

Being able to hear and appreciate music isn't the same as being able to modulate your own voice to produce the notes you want. It's amazing that most of us seem able to do that instinctively.

Most people even if they can't manage to make the right notes can hear and apprecaite music pretty well.

There are some people who can't do that, with a condition called "amusia", for whom music is just meaningless noise - and sometimes that can happen to somone as a result of an accident or illness, temporarily or permanently. A nightmare, especially when it happens to someone for whom music has been really important. (And that's what I took "tone deaf" as meaning in my earlier post.)

Oliver Sachs has some fascinating stuff about all this in his book Musicophilia - here he is talking about it on YouTube.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Melissa
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 06:09 PM

That IS part of what I was wondering, McGrath.
Thank you!

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 06:42 PM

Leenia said
What most people mean by 'tone deaf' is a person who hears a musical tone and can't duplicate it by singing. That doesnt mean they don't hear the tune.

The acceptance of such a definition is precisely the problem. the problem. Tone deafness is the inability to distinguish , when listening to changes in pitch. Not failing to distinguish between a dog and a baby. It is also graduated and measurable, not an either/ or. Tests are available to measure the degree to which we can discriminate between pitches. As we clearly listen to ourselves ( finger in the ear helps) if we can't hear ourselves properley, then the feedback loop which helps us to maintain poitch, singly or severally, is disrupted, and a discord often results.

Subject: RE: what does Tone Deaf sound like
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 07:15 PM

I'm going to throw a new dimension into this argument, from personal experience.
I come from a musical family, and learned to play instruments and sing from an early age, and thought I had a reasonably good "musical ear" - until I was stricken with severe Meniere's disease. The appalling constant tinnitus took away any sense of pitch that I had: the only way that I could recognise even very familiar pieces of music was by the rhythm of them, the tune was meaningless: I was indeed tone deaf - much as McGrath of Harlow has decribed in the post 2 above mine. For several years my record collection was not listened to, the piano and guitar were not played, and I was totally miserable about it.
Then I got a fantastic ENT surgeon who put in a tiny drainage tube behind my ear, which took all the pressure off the cochlear hair cells, and the tinnitus abated (tho' never completely went away), the hearing improved, and, thank God, the sense of pitch came back, and I could enjoy music again.
So, yes, I do believe it's all about neurology.