Tuning To CGCGCE

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 10:17 AM

"Punk all sounded the same, dinnit? :-) :-)"

I don't disagree on that..



but then again..

.. now I'm in my 50's I'm more mature

and much more into Psycho-Folk-Rockabilly

with big semi acoustic guitars in modal G tunings...

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 09:28 AM

Me neither, Leveller.
Mind you - Punk all sounded the same, dinnit? :-) :-)

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 08:59 AM

"most guitars, irrespective of cost or brand name,
sound more or less exactly the same
to most ordinary music listeners with more important things
in their lives to care about..."

Not to me, they don't. But then I don't get out much ;)

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 08:24 AM

matt ,no offence caused

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 11:41 AM

"Not that you're generalising or anything........

My 2 danelectros sounded fairly ordinary on everything"


YES.. of course I'm generalising.. most blatantly and foolhardily..

.. and its great fun !!!



A generation of Musicians like me have been arguing for the last 3 decades
of music technology development

that..

'objectively' most guitars, irrespective of cost or brand name,
sound more or less exactly the same
to most ordinary music listeners with more important things
in their lives to care about...

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: mattkeen
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 11:22 AM

Well sorry to offend with my addotional "k"


"Btw.. Danelectros sound superb in Minor Tunings. "

Not that you're generalising or anything........

My 2 danelectros sounded fairly ordinary on everything

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:39 AM

[oops.. missed copy & pasting this last paragraph ..]

My current favourite 'go to' guitar is an Indonesian made Squier Tele Standard.

I didn't like it much when I first got it,
so it spent about 6 years set up with a raised nut for slide playing in D.
But I recently gave it a reprieve as a standard tuning instrument..
.. and its now got such a lovely vibrant sustaining acoustic tone.
Big open Chords sound great on it.

Thing is, I still wouldn't be seen dead playing it out in public.
Not because of the Squier decal on the headstock.

But because it has a even too nasty for me rich claret/purple glitter finish,
I only aquired it to shut the wife up moaning that I only ever bought
Black or Red guitars; purple is her favourite colour...

and it was in a sale..

Btw.. Danelectros sound superb in Minor Tunings.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:03 AM

"the idea of having different guitars for different tunings would be great if I could afford to lay out two grand for another instrument"



I just use any old cheap guitar that can stay in tune and hold
reasonable intonation.
But then, most of my guitars are electrics with adjustable bridges,
and once an individual instrument is specifically set up for a particular tuning
it stays kept for that dedicated purpose.

I also find Baritone guitars & 6 string Basses very useful.
They can be capo'd up to what would be considered a lower tuning
on a standard neck guitar.

If I had more spare ££$$ I'd aquire more ebay bargain ok quality acoustics to experiment with...

My primary need is for effective recording tools
and what sounds good mixed down on a track.
So understandably, this would not be a suitable solution for folk club players.

Obviously, my priorities are functionality and versatility
at an acceptable compromise point
of reasonable sound/playing quality
and cost effectiveness.

... each to their own.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:36 AM

nic jones,not nick,         
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NIC JONES' Guitar Style by Mike Raven         




Nic Jones with Fylde Guitar

Nic spent many hours in the sound archives at Cecil Sharp house and was knowledgeable about traditional styles of both singing and fiddle playing. However, he also liked modern popular music, especially that of the American West Coast, such as the Eagles. This accounts for his "singing behind the beat", his characteristic easy listening sound, and also the modern chords and syncopation's that he often used at unexpected moments. This blending of the old and the new was done with taste and restraint; it was delicious.

His early guitar styles are very English, and some were quite lute-like. He used the standard tuning, and adaptations of it. His accompaniments are a varied and imaginative bunch - a tune played in counterpoint to the song melody, the tune followed in fourths below with a tremolo drone, a rock riff, a moving bass line, etc. Seven of these songs and their accompaniments are transcribed note for note by Nic and myself in my English Folk Guitar (1976). These are: "Annan Water", "The Butcher and the Tailor's Wife", "Dance to Your Daddy", "Don't You be Foolish Pray", "Lord Marlborough", and "Sir Patrick Spens". Nic was then influenced by Martin Carthy's Blues derived "monotonic bass, tune in the treble" technique and gravitated to open tunings. He admired Carthy and acknowledges the debt that we all owe to him. Equally, Carthy is quick to show admiration for Nic's work, especially these early pieces.

Imperceptibly Nic developed the style for which he is best known and which is widely imitated to this day. Towards the end of his career he used open tunings in C and G (see below) and a variety of rhythmic patterns that characteristically had a missing, damped beat. This took the place of the off-beat drum, endemic in modern popular music. He played with a plastic thumb pick and the nails of his right hand were bitten to the quick; like lutenists, he plucked the strings with the flesh only. To get volume without nails one has to pluck very hard. This leads to the strings frequently being lifted up and slapped down on the fingerboard. (Carthy, of course, plays with his nails, as do Classical players).

This "spitting" sound combined with damped bass strings (muffled by placing the thumb palm on the strings close to the bridge) was an important part of his very percussive, rhythmical sound. He dropped the idea of playing the tune as an accompaniment, which was, and still is, the essence of Carthy's technique, and reverted to playing chords, albeit with considerable skill and imagination. His classic Canadee-i-o accompaniment, for example, incorporated a scale phrase in tenths and some very tasteful "bends".

Technically, everything he did was quite easy, and Nic freely admits that. He was, after all, primarily a singer, not a solo guitarist. Today he talks about himself as being "a crap guitarist". Baloney! This is a mixture of false modesty and the fact that what he did was natural and easy to him and therefore needed little effort on his part. Unless one has to work hard at something one often undervalues one's achievements. Nic rarely used great barre and the left hand led the life of Riley. Most of his "sound" came from the right hand. Nic executed his chop, his missing beat, by striking down with his middle and ring fingers together. They struck the strings, mostly in the bass area, and then stayed there for a moment to damp the sound. The result was a subdued click. I have heard many people imitate this but almost all do it too viciously. The result is an unmusical clang, especially when amplified through a P.A. What many do not realise is that Nic executed this "damped click" by striking the strings very close to, and often actually on, the bridge.

On a number of occasions I had conversations with Nic about guitar techniques. He admired the skills involved in playing Classical and Flamenco and incorporated some of them into his own style. I remember him asking if it was fitting to use vibrato in folk guitar music. I said that I thought it was, if used with discretion, and subsequently Nic used this to good effect - listen to Canadee-io. The tremolo is another technique he flirted with. I also remember mentioning the use of "light and shade", playing louder and quieter, a basic musical effect used by almost all musicians except folk artistes. Nic also used this on occasion - hark to Canadee-i-o again.

From his fiddle playing came the "dips and raises", the slight accents and spaces that give the lilt so perfected by the top Irish fiddlers, which he incorporated into his singing style. It was these subtleties that lifted Nic above the pack. He absorbed and integrated all these and more so that they never sound contrived or unnatural. (It is noticeable that many world-class musicians play very stiffly at times, especially in the way they labour to make every note of an ornament equal and as strong as the main melody note, and their mundane, somewhat heavy, treatment of rhythm).

Another point of interest is that Nic sometimes uses his index finger to pluck the on-beat bass note, not his thumb which then played with less volume on a lower, off-beat, bass note. I have heard it said that Nic got this from banjo frailing, where the thumb plays an open string drone. But he refutes this, even though, I must admit, there are distinct similarities. I have heard a five string banjo player make a guitar sound more like Nic that Nic himself! Incidentally, Nic still has his old Fylde Oberon guitar. It was damaged in the accident, but was repaired and sounds fine.

Nic Jones' Tunings

Here are the tunings most used by Nic in the time before his accident.

G major D G D G B D

C major C G C G C C

G minor D G D G Bb D

C minor C G C G C Eb

G modal D G C G C D

C modal C G C G C D

He also used D A D G A D, which is very popular with Irish musicians today.

Here are some song titles and their tunings.

Canadee-i-o, Wanton Seed, Gordon, Ten Thousand Miles and Wanton Glove are all in C modal; Crockery Ware and Indian Lass are in G major; Isle de France is in G modal; and Miles Weatherhill is in C minor. He did, of course, sometimes use a capo to alter the pitch.

It should be noted that today Nic only plays in the standard tuning, as do most of the younger folk players I see these days, especially the singer-songwriters. Personally I welcome this trend. The character of a stringed instrument is very much linked to its tuning. What is more, most of the melancholic, harp-like major 2nd, minor 7th and suspended 4th chords that are typically used in open and modal tunings are equally easily made in the standard guitar tuning). I know, EADGBE is a compromise to make playing in many keys possible. But it is an extremely good compromise, and one that has proved its worth over many centuries to millions of players of

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: mattkeen
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 07:38 AM

Ok before I drink a gallon of Philisan to fortify my over 50 brain

NICK JONES used mainly C G C G C D
Carthy now CGCDGA


Me (distancing myself from that illustrious company) CGCDGC


Phew!

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 07:29 AM

Ihave not had a need to use it,I find dadgbd dadgad,dadf#ad,dadgbe,dgdgbd,dgdgad, dgdgcd,and eadgbe covers my needs.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: mattkeen
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 07:24 AM

the leveller said: "And doesn't it sound AMAZING? Especially good for playing O'Carolan tunes."

Haven't got in to O'Carolan much

I got to this tuning by using an old Martin Carthy one (DADEAD) and then simply taking it all down a tone as I thought at the time thats what Martin had done.
Course he hadn't and he uses CGCGCA - but I had got used to the c on the top string and couldn't be bothered to work out tunes again!!!

Lots of people seem to use this C modal (sus2) tuning CGCGCD - thats the way Nick Jones used to do it and more recently Chris Wood

Anybody interested in tracking down chords for alternate tunings?
I have found this online tool very useful
http://www.gootar.com/folder/guitar.html

(not that there are many chords using C modal tuning but there you go)

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: Nick
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 06:50 AM

I use open C quite a lot and use Martin strings 13 - 56 or sometimes 12 - 54 on a basic Tanglewood guitar and don't seem to have any problems

And tuning from standard to open C only takes a few seconds so is remarkably little hassle

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: Stower
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 05:07 PM

theleveller wrote, "The problem with using heavier bass strings is that you have to file a wider slot in the nut". I use a 60 on the bottom C, considerably heavier than the standard 52 or 54, and I have not had to do this. A standard nut should take a 60.

GUEST,guest mattkeen wrote, "One word of warning - if you do put on heavier strings, make sure your guitar can take the extra tension if you tune back to standard tuning" - absolutely. But the point of using a 60 on the bottom etc. (as in my post above) is that you keep the guitar in open C or something near it. I sometimes tune the bottom C up to to D (just for the odd tune) and the top E to E flat and that has been fine.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: GUEST,Guest - Bagger
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 12:53 PM

Well, what can I say, I'm blown away, not to mention a little confused as to which advice I should take, but none the less chuffed, with your tips and recommendations.

I have to say that I'm a little sceptical that If I was to buy a heavier gauge Low E string (yes, for me standard tuning is EADGBE) that it would stop the rattling, regardless of my technique, as the string didn't just rattle when I lowered it to C, it was positively slack. But, I shall try again, with a heavier gauge.

It's the first time that I've been tempted away from "Standard" tuning, but it is about time I tried some different ones. I've waited much too long. I'll even have a go at the song in DADGAD.

Cheers Me Dears

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:56 AM

"This is exactly my experience too"

And doesn't it sound AMAZING? Especially good for playing O'Carolan tunes.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: GUEST,guest mattkeen
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:53 AM

The leveller:
I mainly use CGCGCD and don't have a problem with the low C. I use D'Addario 13-56 strings (I have had a tuning problem with some other strings) and play with quite a low action withgout any buzzing. I would suggest that your guitar might need setting up by a good guitar repairer and maybe you should look at your technique - ensuring you play the strings downwards rather then at an angle which will snap them into the fingerboard. One word of warning - if you do put on heavier strings, make sure your guitar can take the extra tension if you tune back to standard tuning (please don't try tuning the bottom sting up to C again - your guitar neck won't like the strain).


This is exactly my experience too
Same tuning same make and gauge of strings

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 03:29 AM

The problem with using heavier bass strings is that you have to file a wider slot in the nut and this will adversely affect the set-up if and when you change back to a lighter gauge - in fact, you'll probably need a new nut. Personally, I'd never put anything heavier than .056 on my Lowden. Some makers, like Dermot McIlroy, state that nothing heavier than .053 should be used on cedar-topped guitars if they are ever brought into standard tuning.

"No one here has mentioned how well these "low C" tunings (open C, orkney tuning, etc.) sound on nylon stringed guitars."

Listen to the fabulous Anna Shannon's playing, especially Song Without Words, played on a 1920s classical guitar.

anna shannon

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: deadfrett
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 09:11 PM

I've used this tuning for years and medium gauge strings have always worked well. No breakage so far and the bass respose still knocks me out. Cheers

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: Stower
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 03:42 PM

I use a range of tunings on a range of guitars, with string gauges to give me the tension to suit the tuning. Strings Direct will sell individual strings for this purpose (at least, that's what I use them for). The following gauges work really well for me on a small bodied 12 frets to the body steel strung:

1st — E        .011
2nd — C        .014
3rd — G        .023
4th — C        .036
5th — G        .045
6th — C        .060

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: GUEST,Steve Byrne
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 02:51 PM

I use this tuning all the time and usually use sets of strings that are medium bottom, light top - some manufacturers call them 'bluegrass' sets. Both D'Addario (EJ19, yellow packaging) and Elixir Light-medium sets work well. Does depend on the scale length of your instrument too though. Another nice set, with a .061" on the bottom, is Thomastik Infeld's Plectrum 13 set, although they're quite soft sounding and not ideal for recording.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: HarleySpirit
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 01:42 PM

Hi,
No one here has mentioned how well these "low C" tunings (open C, orkney tuning, etc.) sound on nylon stringed guitars.
My gibson classical is strung up with "hard tension" nylons and hearing that loud "low C" will "knock yer socks off".
Just beautiful! Wow!
If you've gassed for a nylon stringed rig for a while, this might just give you the excuse to go get one!

Harley
Harley's Alternate Tunings Chord Charts - in Keys

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 10:57 AM

Good advice from a much-admired and respected Yellow-Belly! :-)

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 10:44 AM

One good piece of advice I gleaned from Martin Simpson was, as well as practicing your songs, practice retuning until you can do it effortlessly. Easier said than done!

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 10:08 AM

Bloody hell! It's bad enough having to re-tune between songs. Sod re-stringing as well!! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 09:56 AM

one other solution would be to tune,dadade,using an e string for your second,and a [b string] for your third.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 09:27 AM

Though the situation seems well in hand, I'll through this in, for what it's worth. My best friend and playing partner back in school favored an open C tuning--he used flat-wound strings with a 60 gauge string on the bottom. He favored really cheap, no-name guitars, which actually sounded great this way. I suspect that you could find say, a Hohner or Seagull, or some such instrument that would do surprisingly well--

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 08:45 AM

another alternative is to use or daf#ad or dgdgbd both are open chord tunings so you should get pretty much the same sound,
which you use, depends upon what key you sing in and how high you can capo up successfully,and still get a decent sound.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 07:42 AM

One last point, GUEST-Bagger - you don't **have** to do the song in CGCGCE. I've also done it successfully in DADGAD and even good ole Drop 'D'. I understand that it's nice to use the tuning you've heard Allan use on the CD, and those big, deep bottom notes do sound great, but it's not on a tablet of stone that you **must** use CGCGCE! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 05:20 AM

LOL! Glad to be of service, sir! :-)

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 05:03 AM

Can't disagree with what you say, Backwoodsman.

"I justified my GAS in terms of cigarrette-consumption "

Now that gives me an idea - I'll start smoking, then give it up. That way I can justify buying another guitar to mrsleveller!

Thanks for the idea.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 04:52 AM

Agreed, Leveller - a different solution to the same problem. Obviously, if you're using one instrument for radically different tunings there has to be a degree of compromise in the set-up, and it ain't possible to have the 'perfect' action in all tunings, but a good luthier can get the 'best average' which would work fine.

"Once that's done the neck really shouldn't flex"

I have to slightly disagree - wood is a flexible material, as is metal, and tightening the truss rod puts the neck under backward compression - so reducing string-tension will allow the compression to work more and the relief in the neck will reduce accordingly. How much the relief changes depends on the instrument's build-characteristics and the physical properties of the materials, but it does happen to a greater or lesser degree - the laws of physics determine that it's so. The essence of a good set-up is that it will allow for these fluctuations and give the best average action (one of the reasons a decent luthier will ask to hear you play, ask what kind of action you want, and ask what string-gauges/tunings you use before starting work).

Often I do use one instrument for multiple tunings and get an acceptable result, but when I'm with the band or need quick turnarounds between songs, I find the two-guitar solution ideal - Standard on the Martin, Low tunings on the Lowden.

"the idea of having different guitars for different tunings would be great if I could afford to lay out two grand for another instrument"

Absolutely, can't argue with that, except to say that I justified my GAS in terms of cigarrette-consumption - each guitar cost pretty much the equivalent of what a smoker with a 20-a-day habit would spend on fags in one year. I've never smoked. Cheap (and healthy) at the price, eh? :-) :-)

Re Newtones - they're fabulous on the Lowden, sound like shite on the Martin. Very odd!

Cheers fella.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 04:15 AM

Backwoodsman - the idea of having different guitars for different tunings would be great if I could afford to lay out two grand for another instrument (and lug it around with the all the other instruments). As it is, I have no problem using different tunings on the one guitar (a big-bodied Lowden) - just watch how many times Martin Simpson retunes during a set. I just think it's a question of having the guitar set up properly. Once that's done the neck really shouldn't flex unless it's a fairly lightweight model, although some makers do warn against using heavier string in standard tuning over a period of time.

BTW, I tried Newtone standard strings and, while they sounded brilliant in standard tuning, were terrible in altered tunings.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 03:23 AM

I mainly use CGCGCD and don't have a problem with the low C. I use D'Addario 13-56 strings (I have had a tuning problem with some other strings) and play with quite a low action withgout any buzzing. I would suggest that your guitar might need setting up by a good guitar repairer and maybe you should look at your technique - ensuring you play the strings downwards rather then at an angle which will snap them into the fingerboard. One word of warning - if you do put on heavier strings, make sure your guitar can take the extra tension if you tune back to standard tuning (please don't try tuning the bottom sting up to C again - your guitar neck won't like the strain).

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 03:23 AM

Bagger, you don't say what your 'normal' tuning is. If it's EADGBE, then the 'C' tuning is way lower and the reduced tension wil allow the neck-relief to set back somewhat, and that will effectively lower the action and make for string-rattles.

I have two guitars, one which I use predominantly for 'standard' and Drop 'D', and the other for 'low' tunings such as DADGAD, 'C' and 'C' Modal, and they are set up accordingly.

If you're in the UK, you might try ordering some 'C' strings from Malcolm Newton - www.newtonestrings.com - he'll make them in your normal gauges and the tensions will be the same as for a 'standard' set in standard tuning EADGBE - so they will 'feel' exactly like a 'standard-tuned' guitar. They're hand-made and not especially expensive, but there is a minimum order quantity - not sure what it is.

Subject: RE: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 02:52 AM

you need to buy a heavier gauge string for the bottom E.

if you can get hold of a .059" string, that will work well.

and tune it down, not up !

Subject: Tuning To CGCGCE
From: GUEST,Guest - Bagger
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 02:03 AM

I have recently bought Allan Taylors book of songs, We Must Journey On and in there is a song which I have always liked, Standing At The Door.

The trouble is he says that he has the guitar tuned to CGCGCE, which I believe is open C tuning, but when I try and tune the Low E (6th)string to C, 1, if I tune it down the string just rattles, it's just too slack and 2, if I tune it up - and I've done this twice! - the string simply snaps with a tremedous BANG!

What am I doing wrong? I'm using Redwing, medium gauge, professional, strings

Any advice will be much appreciated