This should set folk music back 100 year

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:11 AM

That comment was preceded by the words "Just to rub salt in the wound". You have grievously let your critical & literacy standards slip, I fear, 'mel'boy' old·darling!

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:09 AM

'"it shot right up the charts and was played on our tv's Top Of The Pops for about 8 weeks running."
Er.... it that supposed to be a recommendation?'

Of course not, melodeonboy. Can't you read! In unlikely event that maybe you can, look at my posting again !!!!!

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 03:57 AM

Read Folknacious's post on 23 Sep 09 - 08:35 PM. As I said, is it really any worse than Puff the Magic Dragon or The Weavers' version of "Goodnight Irene"?

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 03:38 AM

The awful truth is only just beginning to sink in that the Legendaires video wasn't a parody.

Surely it must have been, you can't make up something like that and be serious?

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: eddie1
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 03:01 AM

M Ted
Your second link is great - if played with the sound muted!

Eddie

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 12:48 AM

A gift from all us Pat Boone loving folkies to you, MelodeonboyPat Boone and the Kingston Trio

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:41 PM

Interestingly enough, it wasn't necessary even after the "Folk Scare" to have a rock soundtrack to make a huge hit. Didn't happen very often. But Judy Collins had a huge hit in, I think, 1969, with "Amazing Grace"--and no instruments. Only "gimmick" was the chorus backing her up. Admittedly it was just amazing at the time that it was such a "pop" smash.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 08:50 PM

"it shot right up the charts and was played on our tv's Top Of The Pops for about 8 weeks running."

Er.... it that supposed to be a recommendation?


I do remember seeing one performance of the silly buggers miming on television and not being aware that, quite apart from the fact that anything mimed is naff by deinition anyway, miming a mandolin riff by pretending to play a fiddle is really the pits!

What next on this thread? Pat Boone fans?

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 08:18 PM

Are there any recordings around of what All Around My Hat sounded like before Steeleye Span put the words of Farewell She to it?

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 05:48 PM

Sorry, the first link should have been this one: Modern Folk Quartet Live

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 05:45 PM

The lesson here, such as it is, is that commercial recordings are a product, made for sale by a team of people, and that the performers named on the label are often not the ones who make most of the decisions.

Often you have bands that sound like thisModern Folk Quartet Live teamed with high power producer/promoters to create records that sound like this:Modern Folk Quartet--This Could Be the Night

Given the situation it is probably a mistake to make any determination as to which is more traditional.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: mg
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 03:51 PM

It sounded nice to me. I don't care if perky blond ever picked apples or drove a steam engine..she has a nice voice. And dresses like Nice Catholic Girls of the era. I like hearing music by pretty voices. mg

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 02:30 PM

The awful truth is only just beginning to sink in that the Legendaires video wasn't a parody.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 02:14 PM

And the tone is not "nasty". Just a bit of ribbing--on a topic which has come up before.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 02:12 PM

Early in the thread "vex me considerably".   And for no discernible reason.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Maryrrf
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 01:47 PM

I also was reading this thread as a little lighthearted fun and was surprised that it took on a nasty tone. Why????

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 01:45 PM

If not irony, then certainly a bit of humor missed by some. "Two nations divided by a common language", I think is the quote.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 01:35 PM

It's interesting to try to discern the pedigree of this sort of stuff. I'd say the "Legendaires" are actually trying to mine the "Seekers" vein--with about 1% of their talent--and missing a fourth.. Admittedly I absolutely love the Seekers--and always will. And I don't care what you call them.

As for "All Around My Hat", the contrast between the pristine, yet gutsy, beauty of the a cappella vocals and the godawful obligatory thudding drums and absurd electric guitar, is, shall we say, striking.   It's a shame they had to ruin the song in order to sell it.

As has been noted, those who live in glass houses.....

And it is also interesting that some who regularly take Americans to task for missing irony may possibly have done so themselves re: "set folk music back 100 years". Just a thought.

And a bit of slightly delicious irony.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 01:05 PM

"it shot right up the charts and was played on our tv's Top Of The Pops for about 8 weeks running."
No mystery. It was rollicking good dance music for rock and rollers. therefore it appealed to the kids instead of the archivists. In other words, they breathed life into an old song which could have become a footnote in a history of traditional music. I say more power to them! I love to see someone like Nirvana performing In the Pines, Uncle Tupelo doing John Hardy, or the Grateful Dead doing Lonesome Road Blues. It blows the dust off of these tunes and brings new blood into what we call Folk or Traditional music. These songs are strong enough to stand up to these energetic bastardizations, and they will undergo these periodic resurfacings and modifications if they are good pieces of music, and whether the folks on this forum approve or not.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 12:51 PM

MtheGM

Must be some sort of awful moral in there somewhere, but I can't say I feel too inclined to try to sniff it out.

Mike Batt

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 12:04 PM

Re Steeleye Span's All Round My Hat: Steeleye were imo the best of the Britpop folk-rock lot of the 70s — better than Fairport or Trees or Mr Fox or Pentangle; & Maddy Prior the best singer of the lot of them, incl McShee and Denny; and with many other of the best revival singers joining them over the years, like Martin Carthy, John Kirkpatrick, Tim Hart .... And their approach was, maugre the instumentations [but as it was folk-rock it would be begging the question to object too strongly there] uniformly respectful of the tradition.

SO - there was much puzzlement over here when they took the tune of All Around My Hat, a poignant transportation ballad of a youth whose true love has been sent away for 7 years by an unjust judge on a trumped-up theft charge, and married it to the words of a quite different, and, again imo, not nearly as good or moving, lost-love song called 'Farewell She'.

And, just to rub salt in the wound, it shot right up the charts and was played on our tv's Top Of The Pops for about 8 weeks running. Must be some sort of awful moral in there somewhere, but I can't say I feel too inclined to try to sniff it out.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:27 AM

I forgot to add, I'm not championing this sort of singing just to be awkward, just pointing out that its a style thats 'of its time'.

And I hate Daniel O'Donnell and his ilk like poison.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:02 AM

With that lucid description, BSOG!!

THe cognitive dissonance that bothers some people, of course, is this bizarre nouveau-old thing where you dress in polyester and hair-spray and sing about being in rags on the road when you haven't got the foggiest what it was about to do such a hting. And do it with GUSTO!??!!! It shivers my BS alarm all to pieces, it does.

A

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:11 AM

"I know they're no more than a dumbed even further down Peter Paul & Mary clone on uppers (with apologies to the recently departed Mary) but you have to smile."

Indeed!

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Folknacious
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:03 AM

Yes, I've heard of Ian & Sylvia (Four Strong Winds?), but maybe We Five never made it to the UK. Or just passed me by. I wasn't that interested in US pop "folk" at the time, still am not, but that particular video has a very entertaining period charm like watching old episodes of Ready Steady Go and so forth. I know they're no more than a dumbed even further down Peter Paul & Mary clone on uppers (with apologies to the recently departed Mary) but you have to smile.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 07:43 AM

Folknacious, We Five had a hit with You Were On My Mind, an Ian and Sylvia song. But maybe you've never heard of Ian and Sylvia....

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 07:16 AM

I quite liked it!

DeG

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 07:12 AM

As so often happens with some of Mudcat's more esoteric threads, I'm floundering a bit. Wasn't this just an old track presented as part of a tribute site for those old 'film jukeboxes'?
Have I missed something, or has someone threatened to resurrect this style of singing, thus creating yet another in a long line of 'threats' to the 'genuine' folk music which some Mudcatters hold dear?
Or is this, as I say, just an old track which someone's dug out for our entertainment?
For the record, they reomind me of The Springfields, The Seekers and (dare I say it?) Peter Paul abd Mary.
I wouldn't mind one little bit if someone did revive this style of singing. I'd do it myself if I had just a tenth of the talent these three had.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 06:46 AM

But fair!

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 06:45 AM

"...they should be made to listen to daniel o donnell,for the rest of their lives."

Schweik, you're so cruel!

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: skarpi
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 06:34 AM

hmmmmmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 06:18 AM

this is very worrying,some idiot will start doing this again on the english folk scene.
the latest thing is morons going around with backing tracks,they should be made to listen to daniel o donnell,for the rest of their lives.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 05:22 AM

M.Ted

given that the British Folk revival seems to have revolved around this sort of thing All Around My Hat

No it didn't. Look at the dates. As Frank points out, this is a bit of folk pop and, as such, stands up pretty well. (The moustaches are a bit embarrasing I admit. I probably had one like that myself.)

Stringsinger

What about Lonnie Donegan?

An English member of the American folk revival. Your point?

Then there were these Teddy Boys from Liverpool.

And very good they were too but I don't think they claimed to be "folk".

Are you saying that Pete Seeger is "folk pop"?

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 04:30 AM

When I read the title I wondered whether setting folk music back 100 years was meant to be good or bad.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 03:59 AM

I thoroughly enjoyed both the song and the video. Too open minded for my own good, probably.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 03:57 AM

Blimey! This thread is off the end of the cheesometer scale! Mind you, it's given me a few laughs.

Couldn't we just rename this thread "cheese"? After all, that's what it's really about!

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 12:11 AM

I think a good many of these videos were shot and presented in the doo wop era, a time when it seemed that everything had a tinge of it. Much as I enjoy doo wop to this day, I prefer my music straight.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Amos
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:26 PM

Man, drawing a comparison between the Weavers doing "Irene" and the smarmy artifice of early PPM or Debbie Reynolds is downright myopic. With all due respect, myopic!


A

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:31 PM

There's always the good, the bad and the indifferent.

Just do the best you can.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, on the road in Steveston Village, British Columbia

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:19 PM

Hi Lonesome EJ,

Crosby was on the opposite bill from me. We never worked together.
Could be Roger and Dave met in New York but that contract was signed
that night. Dave was doing pretty much the same stuff...kinda' bluesy.
I was doing traditional. About '64. You're right.

Dave,

The Cityfolkies were copyrighting everything that they could. Lou Gottleib got some money for Uncle Dave's "Rock About My Saro Jane". Bob Gibson copyrighted a lot. It was business.
If it was PD you could change it a little and claim copyright. If you check out Harry Fox Agency and the BMI and ASCAP listings you'll find out who copyrighted what and when.
You could rewire lots of PD material in those days. Then there was the Tom Dooley (KT/Frank Profitt) suit.

Copyright might be the enemy of the folk process.

Frank

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 years
From: Genie
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:19 PM

And, Lonesome EJ, this post of yours brought back a vivid memory of a bizarre (hilariously so) TV segment I caught in the '60s.

You said:
"When world's collided.

Some of the video still available from that era is nearly surreal in the juxtaposition of the old vaudeville schtick overlapping with the music and performers of a completely separate new era. ...
In the Hullabaloo clip, the costumes, set, and performers are completely out of place with the song, and then in walk McGuinn and the Byrds, like acid freaks stumbling into a Manhattan cocktail party, to top it all off."

The TV spot that brings to mind is of Joan Baez appearing on Hefner's "Playboy After Dark" to sing a haunting and stirring a cappella version of Dylan's "Tears of Rage" --
while Hef and the other smoking-jacket clad gents sat around on the couches with barely-legal-looking blonde "playmate" types (with stylishly straight shoulder-length coifs) in slinky gowns, all taking on "meaningfully deep" expressions on their faces as she sang.

Can you say "incongruity?"

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: bobad
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:17 PM

The stuff about the Scopitone is neat, I vaguely remember having seen them in action. There is a goldmine of performances that were recorded for them on YouTube and it even has it's own Facebook page.
Here is one cultural artifact for those of you who have a strong stomach: Fiesta Hippie.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 years
From: Genie
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:11 PM

Snail,

Was it really any more embarrasing than this -



or this -

Snail, I'm glad you included that Weavers TV appearance clip above. When I clicked on your "Puff" link , I immediately thought of Ronnie Gilbert in her formal gown and the other Weavers in their dress suits, so I looked up that video.
When I went to post it, I realized you already had. LOL

But an even more 'popified' version of Goodnight Irene by The Weavers was their hit Decca recording, backed by a full orchestra and sung at a tediously slow pace click here.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: deadfrett
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:43 PM

Frank, wasn't the GOOD MUSIC almost lost in the rush to copyright? There certainly were a lot of happy attorneys. Thank goodness they could only copyright their own arrangements. Dave

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Folknacious
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:35 PM

Actually I thought it was rather fun. There's nothing like period piece to make you wince and laugh at the same time, and A Mighty Wind was a great follow on to all that. It made me curious enough to Google for the Legendaires and found this on the Sandiego Troubadour site about another US group I'd never heard of called We Five:

From the third album (The Return of the We Five) on, the female vocalist would be Debbie Burgan, Jerry's wife. (Jerry, Debbie, and Pete Fullerton retained the We Five name after a business acquisition with the other band members.)

Debbie was no stranger to the California folk scene. She recorded her first disc at 14 and was later a member of the Legendaires, a trio that later secured a recording contract with Mercury Records and worked with Mike Curb, a music industry veteran whose diverse curriculum vitae includes soundtrack music for American International Pictures youth exploitation films and a term as California Lieutenant Governor.

A short promotion film featuring the Legendaires is now considered a collector's item for devotees of the Scopitone, a '60s novelty that placed a video screen over the body of a jukebox. Scopitone music shorts are now all over the Internet, a pop culture renaissance that must provide Debbie Burgan with occasional moments of nostalgic reflection.

"In October of 1965 the Legendaires were asked to film a short film for a juke box, coin operated sound film on the Scopitone," said Debbie. "The Legendaires consisted of Michael Alley, Jeff Tonkin, and myself, then Debbie Graf. We had won the Battle of the Bands at the Hollywood Bowl and just returned from singing for President Johnson at the World's Fair in New York. Most of the product for Scopitone was produced in Hollywood by a company owned by Debbie Reynolds and film-maker Irving Briskin. Our film was shot at Griffith Park on the trains. It was very exciting to be involved in the project. We sang a song named 'Good for Nothing Bill.' There were dancers, and a hobo depicting the character Bill. We were standing on the top of the train at times, then the platform of the caboose.

"The dancers were doing a routine with the hobo, and we thought it was over the top, but we were just the singers," said Debbie. "It was the first time I had been taken out and had clothing bought for a project by the director. We all had make-up and hair done, as well. I don't remember making any money, but I did get to keep the clothes.

"At the time, there were 427 machines operating in California lounges, and over a thousand in the United States. I had some calls from relatives who saw us from several states away, and that was exciting. Each machine held 36 short films in color, and we were one of 26 films made at that time along with Debbie Reynolds, Kay Starr, Vic Damone, Bobby Vee, James Darren, Mary Kaye, Frankie Avalon, Vikki Carr, the Righteous Brothers, and others. Each film ran for about three minutes and was produced by Briskin. It cost a quarter to play them. Sadly, the Scopitone was short lived."

Not much implied about "folk" in there, but interesting.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:00 PM

Its the SINCERITY Man !! As kong as you can fake the sincerity - - - -

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: bobad
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 07:22 PM

Man, everything about that is BAAAAAAAAD!

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 07:14 PM

It may not be fair to bring up singers whose native language wasn't English, but as Jimmy Carter would have it "life isn't fair"...

The Jacob Sisters

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 06:32 PM

and Frank, your reminiscences about the Troubador are the kind of thing that make coming to the Mudcat worthwhile.
I had thought McGuinn and Crosby were pals in the Greenwich folk scene before coming to LA, but you imply they met at the Troubador. And how did Gene Clark hook up with them?
What kind of stuff were you and Crosby doing at the time? That must have been 1964 or so? Straight folk and traditional music?
Sorry, but I would buy you a beer if we were sitting in a bar, just to keep you talking.

Subject: RE: This should set folk music back 100 year
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 06:23 PM

Great commentary there, Don. The lines between Folk Songs and Singer/Songwriter Songs have always been a bit blurry to me, and your comments give at least some inkling as to why a traddy like Dylan decided to swing over into the songwriter mode.
The comments about the contrast between substance (a hardrock mining song, for example) and its presentation by a cleancut crew of college lettermen always struck me as incongruous and insincere, even as a lad of 11 years. Somehow, putting a drum behind those kids and letting them grow their hair long gave them more credibility to me as a teenager. But somewhere along the line most of us come to a place where we recognize that the strength is in the beauty and integrity of the song, not the style and popularity of the singer, and that the best a performer can do is find a song with meaning and try to do it justice.