New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:44 AM

Sorry we couldn't make it but I hope you will keep this thread going (or a fresh one) with upcoming dates.

Blessings
Rhiannon

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:37 AM

Glad it went well Paul.
Sorry not to have made it down - I was "stranded" across in Burnley all day, at any rate till it was too late to make anything of the evening. I'll try to clear the daytime diary for 18th November...

Subject: Ballad Club in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:06 PM

Well, we came and sang. Twelve enthusiasts turned up and we had an evening which was as close to a house concert as anything except…the brilliant acoustics and the real ale bar! So we sat and sang, compared versions ( for example three 'Lady Margaret's - all wildly different and equally fascinating). Discussed why 'Demon Lovers' don't always sink the boat and why 'Barbara Allen' may be misunderstood. There were guitars and concertinas as well as some great deliveries. Some tried new stuff, all chatted about meanings, hidden and otherwise. Body count low so far. Some beautiful singing, lovely songs and not a boring moment. Next one on 18th Nov. Looking forward to it. Oh, yes, the beer was great!
Paul

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 02:40 PM

Not long ago we had a visiting Dutch lady at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club. She sang a ballad in Dutch, having outlined the plot first. I don't speak Dutch, but I could recognise a familiar metre and echoes of some of the turns of phrase common in Scottish ballads - 'up and spoke the youngest brother', and that sort of thing. Fascinating. The tune would have suited a British ballad, too.

Child does quote European and Scandinavian tellings of stories similar to the ballads he collected or assembled.

Valmai

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 12:24 PM

Now a Grimm element would be a real plus. I wonder how many of the Child story lines feature in other European traditions? Which brings me to the point that your ballad can be from any tradition whatsoever. If we include American versions we should also include European ones too?

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:52 AM

On a related topic, the Guardian is currently publishing a series of collections of Great Fairytales. Part 5, entitled 'Wisdom & Folly' includes one called Clever Gretchen, which I think is from Grimm. The final part of the story is in essence The Devil And The Feathery Wife. Not Child, but definitely a happy ending.

Valmai

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:48 AM

"I sing Hind Horn too; don't think the bridegroom was too happy with the ending, though."

Well, two happy folks out of three (and not a single corpse) ain't bad for a Child ballad. The beggar got a fancy coat out of it as well. Willie O' Winsbury's a good romantic choice, although I'm a bit worried about his future father-in-law's barely disguised hots for Willie.

Unfortunately I can't make the first one since I'm accompanying the very talented Dave Ruch to a gig over this side of the Pennines. Next time, I hope. And thanks Paul for the plug for 'Trial & Triumph'.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Willa
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:56 AM

Have just learned Child 100A (William o' Winsbury0 which has a happy ending. Hope I can make it sometime, Paul

Banjiman: I think Wendy's 'The Vistor' would get a definite thumbs up!

Brian Peters: Yes, I sing Hind Horn too; don't think the bridegroom was too happy with the ending, though.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: GUEST,Fay Hield
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 06:16 PM

Hoping to be there, if not this month then the next.
Cheers for setting it up, it'll be grand!
Fay

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 11:56 AM

And if you can't make it…don't know any then get to Brian Peters' ballad show at the LanternTheatre, Netheredge, on 30th Oct. and either get your ballad fix or; become enlightened.
Paul :-)

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 01:45 AM

Just a reminder that we start next Wednesday at 8.00pm. Hope you can turn up with ballads and with/wthout accompaniment (that means you can bring a friend or an instrument or both)
See you there
Paul

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: John Routledge
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:50 AM

Looks like a great night. Will sort out some suitable material.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: GUEST,Drumshanty
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:22 AM

An excellent enterprise, Paul - hope I can visit sometime. It's a long time between Whitbys when you want to hear a ballad sung. We could do with one of these in Edinburgh that's for sure.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 11:53 AM

I shall do that now. Thanks for the support.
Paul

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 02:34 AM

Vic and Diva, thanks for the helpful information about Stanley Robertson and The Laird o' Drum.

(Paul, you and Liz are listed at the Tenterden Festival next week-end but I can't tell from the programme when you're appearing; could you put something on the Tenterden thread?)

Valmai

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:51 AM

Oddly I collected a version of Henry from a school pupil in the 1990s seems a popular one for kids?

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Liberty Boy
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:03 AM

Two from Ireland with "jaunty" tunes are Weelya Weelya Waulya, #20 The Cruel Mother, and Henry Me Son, #12 Lord Rendal. The first sung by children in Dublin, with glee, in the 50's.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: foggers
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 10:55 AM

Will see if we can make it up to Hillsborough on 21st

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 07:42 AM

Just uploaded our version of Child #102 - Willie & Earl Richard's Daughter (aka The Birth of Robin Hood) onto our myspace page - www.myspace.com/venereumarvum. This is the Lily Flower Mix, as featured on the download component of John Barleycorn Reborn (2006) - essentially an alternative ambient version of that featured on the CD itself. It's the same vocal track - Rachel & I singing live over drones on our Indian harmonium and old Weltmiester respectively - with an ambient track (realised by looping samples from the vocal track) in place of the other instruments.

I first came across this ballad in Rhymes of Robin Hood (Dobson & Taylor, Sutton 1976) in 1990 and being without a melody I set it to the melody of the Balladelle Bergeronnette Douce Baisselete by Northern French trouvere Adam de la Halle (1237-86) from his Le Jeu de Robin et Marion which, whilst not concerning Robin Hood per se, nevertheless prefigures much that we have come to associate with the legend and sets this off just perfectly. Rachel added her harmony part back in 2002 since which time we've developed a number of approaches, of which this one seems to be pretty definitive.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 06:09 PM

Of course here is! Thanks Dave

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 05:09 PM

Well,

there is this one.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 12:26 PM

Brian mentioned 'The Long Harvest' . I just checked my vinyl and discover I seem to have this set as well as the Topic set and some but not all of the other Macoll and Seeger stuff. Strikes me that these should provide a really useful source for wannabe ballad singers? Are there any other collections of recorded ballads like these out there ?

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 03:46 PM

You're welcome any time!

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: GUEST,Surreysinger at work
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 01:37 PM

"Oh! You Canna' Wash A China Cup Nor Mak' a Cup O' Tea"
How many deaths in that one?
Wish I lived closer to Sheffield Paul - maybe I'll have to negotiate a trip up from Surrey, just for the sheer hell of it!!

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 01:29 PM

The Laird O'Drum
Valmai said

"Rumour has it that Stanley Robertson did this one; can anyone confirm it?

I have a rather poor quality cassette recording of Stanley singing it made at a TMSA festival at Kinross sometime in the mid-1970s. It follows the way that his aunt Jeannie Robertson sung it. From Kinross we went up to Fetterangus in Aberdeenshire to stay with Cameron and Jane Turriff for a week and we took turns in recording songs from them whilst they made recordings of us singing! Jane recorded my favourite version of The Laird O' Drum - quite short by the standard of Jane's ballads. She insisted that it was called, Oh! You Canna' Wash A China Cup Nor Mak' a Cup O' Tea.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 12:32 PM

Right on Brian! Especially the last statement.
Paul

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 06:58 AM

Paul D wrote:
"I'm currently looking at the Child ballads with happy endings – it seems many have never been recorded or even sung!"

I once sang 'Lamkin' - one of the nastiest of 'em all, with few morally redeeming features - at a festival ballad session. After the conclusion, "The Lamkin was hanged, high up on a tree / and the false nurse was burned, such a villain was she", a few people in the room were visibly upset, but then the silence (punctuated with stifled sobs) was broken by Jeff Warner who said, in his brashest New England tone, "Well, at least there was a happy ending!"

The point being, what do you call a 'happy ending'? Many of the ballads feature revenge as a theme, and this can lead to a satisfying conclusion despite the bloodletting along the way. Or you do mean ballads with no nastiness, and a happy ending? In which case I nominate 'Hind Horn'.

The other Paul wrote:
"My worry is always that these accompanied and in some cases "modernised" interpretations will be frowned upon by by the cognoscenti."

I don't think there's anything at all wrong with accompaniment however weird and wonderful, so long as it doesn't get in the way of the story. Listen to Tim Eriksens's 'Long A Growing' on 'Songlinks', on which he accompanies himself on a mandolin with cigarette paper interlaced with the strings to give a strange, buzzy drone, and ends the piece with throat singing. As S O' P points out, droney stuff often works well in creating an appropriate atmosphere.

My guess is that the old ballads were sung on these islands almost exclusively without accompaniment for several hundred years, and that putting guitars and things behind them dates back only as far as the 1960s. However, Ewan MacColl for instance wasn't didactic about it: the groundbreaking 'Long Harvest' collection that he and Peggy Seeger put out in 1967 used (I quote) "sparing accompaniment on 5-string banjo, guitar, Appalachian dulcimer, concertina and autoharp". Peggy has always used banjo to accompany ballads.

The only thing I really disapprove of relating to ballad singing is a lack of committment.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 01:52 PM

Frayed knot - they're only on our albums, but we'll no doubt throw them into the mix at the session. Basically the one is a selection of mermaid legends grafted onto Child 289 and the other is Childe Owlett set in a modern secondary school where he does nothing wrong except to make the mistake of being alone in a room with an adolescent girl with the same moral outlook as the original Lady Erskine. It's not a happy ending.
Paul

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 12:19 PM

"you haven't heard my version of the 'Mermaid' or 'Giles Howlett' then?"

Anywhere we can hear them on-line Paul?

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 12:07 PM

We're certainly not going to be precious about this project. Paul's posting is useful in opening up the discussion. In many respects what we're hoping for is not dissimilar to this thread but with the advantage of being able to hear and see each other whilst discussing and being able to have an evening full of singing too. As for modernising, hmm…you haven't heard my version of the 'Mermaid' or 'Giles Howlett' then? Accompaniment has to be part of the mix too. Don't get me wrong,   Ilove unaccompanied but I also like accompaniments and the plan is to have room for both. The only restriction here is that it's not a 'folk' club and so we are looking at a tradition (note: not The tradition) of narrative songs and the singing of them.

Now – I have had contact with Burton St. and the frequency will now be the 3rd Wednesday NOT the 4th as advertised. Sorry about my lack of counting ability.
Paul

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 11:38 AM

As you know SOP the Mrs performs and has recorded some interpretations of traditional ballads.

Paul, for interest you can hear The Blacksmith & Gypsy Laddie
here and decide if they pass muster. They're certainly not unaccompanied though. Just ignore the other stuff on there if you want to.

She's also written some (v. traditional sounding) ballads as well..... she might be up for your challenge of trying to sneak one past you Paul!

I also do some of the American(ised) ones with banjo.

My worry is always that these accompanied and in some cases "modernised" interpretations will be frowned upon by by the cognoscenti. Especially as you've accused the Mrs of producing "pop" music previously Paul! Hence my interest in listening rather than playing.

We will try and get down though (but probably seperately due to baby sitting duties). I'm encouraged by your admission of using raga for accompaniment that we won't feel totally alienated.

Thanks

Paul

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 11:06 AM

Banjiman your very welcome looking forward to seeing you there.
It's not pedantic to point out a cock-up. It's well observed and thanks a lot. I am inclined to go with 21st but will check with the venue re frequency and get back on thiis listing post haste.
Siubhne you are dead right about the Max Hunter stuff. Its a real treasure trove of amazing songs (many very economical versions of big ballads) and some of the finest singers ever like Almeida Riddle to name but one. By the way I love your website As for accompaniments I thought I was being a bit wild using Indian raga for accompaniment but Tibetan Singing Bowl? Wow! (It makes perfect sense to me but I'll look forward to hearing it.
This brings up the point about the idea behind this venture. The songs are the thing, beyond that there's the whole thing about their relevancy today and how we bring them to life for audiences. Which goes right back to Paul's question.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 07:01 AM

love the songs but struggle with "traditional" presentation.

I'm presently toying with a thread, something along the lines of Ballad Style & Presentation, the intention being to explore the relationship between Revival and Traditional approaches to ballad singing. Where is this thread? I hear you ask. Well, fearful of endless mudcat-slinging, hysteria, insults & premature closure I'm sitting on it just now.

When asked, however, my advice is to first listen to (and reverence) the traditional singers (the Child Ballads in the Max Hunter Folk Song Collection is as good a place as any to start) and, second, to simply do what feels best. There are no rights and wrongs - a passion for ballads is the main qualification to be a ballad singer, and I would think (& hope) there are no limits in terms of presentation as such, despite the nonsense one hears on the matter, which is enough to put off even a seasoned balladeer like myself, hem hem. I would think, Banjiman, you are more than qualified to take the plunge.

*

Rapunzel & I have got a few ballad currently playing on our myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/venereumarvum:

The Cruel Mother - live demo. From the singing of Mrs Pearl Brewer of Pocahahtas, Arkansas in the Max Hunter Archive.

The Wax Baby (The Witch Mother / Willie's Lady - live demo. Lacking a traditional tune (and eschewing Ray Fisher's Son Ar Chistre setting) I set this to a fragment of a Finnish lullaby which has further evolved over the years.

Alison Gross - a performance recording from one of our Fylde 2008 sets; Rapunzel sings to a Shruti Box drone, I sing chorus harmony and play dumbek & three-hole pipe.

King Orfeo - a dark-ambient rendering from 2002 in direct homage to Archie Fisher, featuring Saga Brass & subliminal spectral leakages by way of empowerment of the archetype.      

I've also got a couple of ballads on my myspace page (http://www.myspace.com/sedayne) presently:

King Orfeo - live demo, sung simply, self-accompanied on a Tibetan Singing Bowl.

Wife of Usher's Well - live demo, intoned whilst freely-improvising on adapted fretless guitar, with singing bowl & electronic Shruti Box.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: tijuanatime
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:44 AM

Sorry to introduce a pedantic note into this discussion, but 21st October is the third Wednesday of the month: is that the correct date, or should it be the 28th, in which case I might be able to get there.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Diva
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:25 AM

Sounds like a good one. Stanley did indeed sing Laird O' Drum

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:22 AM

Are listeners welcome? I'm still trying to get to grips with understanding the ballad singing style..... love the songs but struggle with "traditional" presentation.

It would be good to hear them sung well.

Paul

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 03:57 AM

Whilst I can't recall hearing Stanley sing it myself (though it is possible) a Google search for Stanley Robertson Laird O Drum will give you an indication of the extent of the association!

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 05:23 PM

Paul, I've just got to grips with The Laird o' Drum (Child 236): a happy ending and deaths only mentioned as a way of demonstrating the futility of class distinction (the main point of the ballad as far as I can see).

Rumour has it that Stanley Robertson did this one; can anyone confirm it?

Tootle pip,

Valmai

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 03:04 PM

There's King Orfeo (Child #19), a mainstay of my repertoire for 30 years & nae happier ending I can think of. Child #102 likewise, of course, which has bee a mainstay for getting on for 20 years. I think I'll get that one up on our myspace page tomorrow.

Got the heads up on this from Raymond earlier; we'll be with you before the year's out, weather permitting.

Hope it's a success!

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 12:49 PM

Thanks for the votes of support. I'm currently looking at the Child ballads with happy endings – it seems many have never been recorded or even sung! Not surprising really…ballad? No deaths? Why????

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 04:27 AM

Sounds great, Paul - I'll try to get along some time.

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 04:11 AM

Excellent scheme - good luck!

We once had a sweepstake on the number of deaths when we ran our all-day Sussex Singaround in Barcombe. You need a book of cloakroom tickets and a way of deciding how to account for large-scale deaths.

We decided on named or specified individuals, with ship sinkings counting as a nominal 100 and wars not counting at all. The MC had a flip-over cricket scoreboard to tot up at the end of each song.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 05:26 PM

Good luck Paul and all - fesh air at last!
Jim Carroll

Subject: New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 04:45 PM

New Ballad Club/Session in Sheffield
Burton St. Project, Burton Street.
Monthly Fourth Wednesday starting 8.00pm 21st October 2009
Real Ale Bar
Good public transport and parking

Format is part singaround and part discussion with emphasis firmly on the singing.
Ballads and broadsides providing they have the essential plot, story with characters who are named and having a clear development. (Would it make a film script?) This is not a folksong/singer songwriter cub. (Unless you can write solidly in the tradition and manage to pull a fast one that we fail to notice)
Unaccompanied and accompanied.
See you there.
Paul