African-non-Americans in Black Liberation

Subject: African-nonAmericans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 01:47 PM

Rushing around, so shorthandly--

Thinking how often some Carribean people of color have been credited with African-American "firsts." Odd-- we see color, we assume American?

Folklore and examples please.

~S~

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 05:49 PM

No one has a thought?!?!?!?!

(refresh)

~S~

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:09 PM

Who are you thinking of? Toussaint L'Ouverture? Marcus Garvey? Walter Rodney? Who supposes they were American?

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:54 PM

Poitier, Belafonte...

~S~

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 09:34 PM

Sidney Poitier was born in Miami, but the family moved to the Bahamas. At age 15, he returned to Miami.
He may have dual citizenship, since he was an ambassador from the Bahamas to Japan, and later 'ambassador' to UNESCO. In 2009, he received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from Obama.
Born in Miami, he is a U. S. citizen.

Harry Belafonte was born in New York City, thus a U. S. citizen. His father was Jamaican; Belafonte stayed with him in Jamaica for five years before returning to NY and attending high school. He served in the Navy in WW2. He supported the freedom riders, and civil rights. More recently he caused controversy by calling George Bush a terrorist.

I don't think your examples are particularly good.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: GUEST,Al de Harleg
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 10:20 PM

OK, let's wade inwith my big European feet! The whole Dance Music/Rap thing owes it's origins to Dub which started in Jamaica in the 60's. Sound systems would have competitions between themselves to see who was the best/loudest/bassiest and then DJs started to'toast' back and forth putting each other down. Jamaicans in New York (such as Bob Marley) developed this into rap while dance music was coming up and... Voila (as us cheese-eating monkeys over here is supposed to say) you got a global industry.
Stirring more controversy: West Indians in the UK were doing rap/ toasting 10 years before you New Yorkers!
As they say the music goes round and round and it comes out.....?

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 11:24 PM

Rap? What has that to do with music?

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:18 AM

I heard of an American journalist talking to camera in South Africa about the racial divide there.
She felt unable to refer to people by their colour, and resorted to "African African Americans."
It may be apocryphal.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:46 AM

I don't think it is apocryphal that a well-meaning American lady, when Nelson Mandela visited the US shortly after his release from his long imprisonment and triumphant return to politics, said to him, 'President Mandela, sir; speaking as an African-American, what do you think of...?'

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:25 AM

Re: Poitier, Belafonte-- part of my thought process (I am SO rushed for time right now) was that the different heritage (island cultural influence) MAY have given them enough of a different worldview from "totally"-AA's of the time that they may have seen a different way to deal with racism. (I do NOT mean to minimize their courage or achievements, I'm just looking at cultural DIFFerence.)

Just as people of color in other non-US cultures whose particular variety of longstanding mistreatment gives THEM a different worldview.

I think of an old friend with whom I have lost touch-- Njoki from Kenya. She had an amazing way of seeing the racism HERE as silly, because it was not the racism she had known as a child but a different-seeming one. So she also had a way of sailing through preliminaries to make new friends and bring truth where there had been confusion. SHE was often said to be the "first" in the local community we shared, and even her thick Kenyan accent did not always dawn upon people as they mis-spoke her heritage.

So I am looking more at HERITAGE than citizenship.

And also the Mandela example above is along the lines of my thought process.

~S~

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:29 AM

PS--

Why this is above-line is because I hope to see music or other folklore items illustrating cultures of origin for any people-examples posted, that might help illustrate the worldview I suspect underlies what I'm thinking about.

Thanks,

~S~

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:41 AM

If that *is* a tendency in America, I suspect it's to do with a degree of cultural insularity. There might be less people from the UK (or indeed France for example) that would tend to automatically presume that all innovations by non-African born Black people, are necessarily by Black Americans. But then there has always been a lot of cultural exchange with, and immigration from the Carribean here.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:46 AM

Heh he! Nelson Mandella a "Black American"!?

I think I mis-read your opening title to read Non-African rather than Non-American.. but nevermind.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:53 AM

Precious McKenzie!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precious_McKenzie

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:44 AM

CS, in the UK, is there any term like AA?

~S~

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:58 AM

"Black British" would probably be the most general Susan.
And the one that Black people tend to use themselves.

I don't know what the ratio of African to West Indian (Carribean) is here, but there's lot's of 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation West Indian communities in London especially.

Never heard anyone using "African" as a specific term of reference - it might happen of course as I'm not overly familiar with Black British culture (although my fathers partner is Black, and I grew up next to a West Indian family when young) as it's mostly confined to the cities.

But otherwise, we tend to speak fairly broadly of Whites and Blacks.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:07 PM

France was a fairly major Empire player in Africa and Asia once too - and as a consequence now has a substantial Black French community. Bit of a tangent, but I wonder how Black French people tend to refer to themselves?

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:24 PM

also British Chinese or British-born Chinese
There are Chinese communities in many major cities including London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Sheffield, Belfast and Aberdeen.

In the UK the term British Asian is usually used to refer to those of South Asian origin, particularly Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, as well as the less numerous Sri Lankans, Nepalese and Maldivians.

Black British has come to be used in recent years to define a British resident with specifically Sub-Saharan African ancestral origins, who self-identifies, or is identified, as "Black", African or Afro-Caribbean.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Lox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:30 PM

Al de Harleg,

It may be time for you to get a few recordings of The Last Poets - street poetry with a distinctly American Twang done over repetitive drum rhythms ...


Listen to them here ...

... and the roots of that trace straight back through to Africa without any detours to Jamaica, though the African tradition of improvised vocal expression also migrated to Jamaica, becoming the basis for Nyabingi drumming and ... you guessed it ... Ragga.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Lox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:39 PM

Then Al,

you might like to check This guy out.

Gil Scott Heron is widely considered the Godfather of Hip Hop.

Combine This with a groove and you get the first Hip hop.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: GUEST,G. I. Joe
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:53 PM

Here in the states we had a chap fill out his college application as African American and was accepted. When he came to register.He was rejected as he was white and not African/American.

Answer I am an American citizen. Born in South Africa of Boer parents.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 01:19 PM

Chinese & Asian communities in major cities likewise, yet Chinese community tends not to get referenced as often as say "Black and Asian" which tend quite often to get lumped together in that exact fashion in speech and media. Not sure why though.

Also I've known Asians who self-reference as "Black".

Go figure ;-)

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 01:51 PM

Not so strange, I think, as here a generic term oft used is "people of color," meaning, usually, "I am darker than the people with [most of] the big bucks and when sh*t rolls downhill, I'll be your nearest ally."

===

Misc thoughts while cleaning:

It's complicated. Every few generations the PC terminology changes, and yet the older people still alive at any one point are still proud of the earlier referent and would prefer to keep using it. (It's not just the privileged group that gets confused.). There is a very apt statement from Whoopi Goldberg on this point.

Another line of thought-- I KNOW Obama is tired of always [having to be portrayed as] being The Black Man. His heritage is so much more multi-layered than that. I see a little eye roll of "Oh, OK, if I must, I will bear that image yet again....." It is not accurate and not inclusive enough to call him an AA man, tho he is one. Tiger Woods, ditto. I bet Hoda Kotbe's head spins, often, too. LOve to have lunch with THAT one. She's so twinklingly cool.


Friends of color tell me that my read of these little hints of feeling are usually pretty accurate.

===

There is definitely this urge to simplify-- I think it's an essentially human urge to get ON with contact and also to avoid not only "appearing to give offense" but actually "giving offense." We all like to try so hard to get it all "right." When we get a message that we've messed up, of course we get defensive-- another human-bean-type trait not limited to cultural heritage. :~)

===

Perhaps the thing we all MOST have in common is that we are only human and, at the same time, so quite-gloriously human.

~S~

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:08 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: meself
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:26 AM

"I think it's an essentially human urge", etc."

My suspicion is that there's nothing "essentially human" in the Western world's (and in particular American) preoccupation with and angst over racial issues; seems to me it's rooted in the kind of thinking and theorizing that supported 19th century imperialism and the institution of slavery.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:32 AM

I am African American. I have refrained from posting to this thread, but feel the need to post the definition for and some history about the referent "People of Color":

"Person of color (plural: people of color) is a term used, primarily in the United States, to describe all people who are not white. The term is meant to be inclusive, emphasizing common experiences of racism. People of color is preferred to both non-white and minority, which are also inclusive, because it frames the subject positively; non-white defines people in terms of what they are not (white), and minority, by its very definition, places the subject in a subordinate position. "Person of color" has a positive connotation and has often been preferred by people of color in the US.

Although the term citizens of color was used by Martin Luther King, Jr. in 1963, and other uses date to as early as 1818, people of color did not gain prominence for many years. Influenced by radical theorists like Frantz Fanon, racial justice activists in the U.S. began to use the term "people of color" in the late 1970s. By the early 1990s, it was in wide circulation. Both anti-racist activists and academics sought to move understandings of race beyond the black-white binary then prevalent."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color

-snip-

The "P' and the "C" in "People of Color" is aways written in caps (to reflect its use as a racial/ethnic referent since the first letter of racial, ethnic referents -with the possible exceptions [for some people] of "White" and "Black"-are always written in capital letters).

The accepted abbreviations for People of Color are "PoC" or "POC", again notice the capital letters. The terms "Women of Color" and "Men of Color" are also widely used, although it doesn't appear to me that the abbreviations for those terms are common.

-snip-

For examples of the use of this term, read this essay and comments from the blog racialicious.com (where most of the posters are People of Color who are first generation mixed race-and not necessarily Black/White)-

http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/03/new-words-for-mixed-race-people-of-colour-with-or-without-white-ancestry/
-snip-

And, having posted this information, I choose to post no other comments to this thread.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:54 AM

My suspicion is that there's nothing "essentially human" in the Western world's (and in particular American) preoccupation with and angst over racial issues; seems to me it's rooted in the kind of thinking and theorizing that supported 19th century imperialism and the institution of slavery.

If you go back and re-read my comment I hope you might see that I did not say the preoccupation is normal. I meant to refer to the normal urge to move forward, which is a messy business fraught with misunderstanding.

===

People of color is preferred to both non-white and minority, which are also inclusive, because it frames the subject positively....

There are many instances (grant-writing has been one, social services and demographics have been another), where the preferred term IS either "non-white and minority," because the subject being discussed may be exactly the negative situation people are discussing changing.

An example is a recent energetic effort to discuss exactly those issues among our diocesan Bishop's Commission on Racism, where members of color of several different generations tried to figure out how to assess what is happening in our congregations. This included at least one parish, whose rector was astounded to learn that they had not been (and one STILL was not) recording baptisms of.... which term is preferred to use?

NONE OF THE ABOVE are "comfortabnle" or "preferred" terms, but it takes longer to CHANGE it if you don't start SOMEwhere. People energetically approaching action need space to use whatever words come to mind. In a well-faciltated discussion, folks working together in such an effort don't halt the discussion by shifting to semantics in a brainstorming session-- basic facilitating is that when it's someone's turn to talk, it's others' turn to listen. It works, too, if people actually take turns. (And I hope Azizi will take another turn.)

===

These issues are not dissimilar to the issue of African Americans being greatly offended by the European use of the term "Negro" in the category they name "Negro Spirituals," jumping to the conclusion that there is ignorance and/or a lack of respect goiong on-- when in fact the folks in Eurpope have absolutely no idea of the complexity of interracial (PC term "diversity") relations in the US, the many-layered nuances of thought and feeling about same, and the way there are so many strands of experience in a country as huge as the USA. What these European scholars are more usually focused on is the scholarshiop aspect-- documenting what the writers of the time, themselves, labeled as "Negro Spirituals." They see no reason not to faithfully use the term used when the songs were first documentd, out of respect for the work of the people at the time. They prefer not be revisionist. They prefer that over being PC, and it does not at all indicate insensitivity but rather simply a different focus on the topic: scholarship.

~Susan

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:35 PM

Person of colo(u)r was a dismissive if not derogatory term in much of the world in colonial times; it has persisted to some degree.

Black Canadians don't lump themselves together; those I know are Jamaican, Ethiopian or whatever, or just Canadian.

Asians are deeply offended by the term 'person of colour.'

The Canadian Census uses the term "visible minority, which is defined in the Employment Equity Act as "persons, other than Aboriginal peoples, who are non-Caucasian in race or non-white in colour."

Thus the Census separates Caucasian, Aboriginal, and Visible Minority (with subdivisions South Asian (e. g. East Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, etc.), Chinese, Black, Filipino, Latin American and Southeast Asian (e. g. Malaysian, Cambodian, Vietnamese, etc.).

By Caucasian is meant European generally, but the many Caucasian (by anthropological definition) groups in Pakistan, India, etc. get lumped with 'visible minorities' in the South Asian group. The northern tier of African countries also have many Caucasians as well as Blacks.
Similarily, 'Latin American' is meaningless with regard to colour.

If I was taking a census, I don't know where I would put the Japanese, Polynesians or Melanesians; I suppose 'Southeast Asian'. Melanesians and Tamil Indians are dark, but they cannot be classed with Blacks (of sub-Saharan Africa).

I would guess South Africans, a melange of races (Huguenots, Boers, East Indians, 'coloured', English and several distinct Black African language groups) would cause a census-taker to scratch his/her head before putting a tick in some category or other.

Hyphenated terms used in the U. S. such as African-American are seldom encountered in other countries.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: meself
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:39 PM

Very common in Canada, however.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:41 PM

"Common in Canada"-
Used by whom- white or black?

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:46 AM

During the evil apartheid times in South Africa, Japanese people were defined as 'White' & Chinese as 'Black'.

Probably a further cynical political device based on economic standing in the world at that time.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:46 PM

The Aussie movie I am running now has some pretty weird stuff in this regard, too. I'm looking at a Maori face now that, if she moved here, would be assumed to be AA. It would entirely abrogate sharing her cultural wisdom.

~S~

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:21 AM

Movie noted above: Rabbit-Proof Fence.

Another we saw last night: Gran Torino. The people of color in this film are Hmong people, with one character in particular sorting out a number of Asian stereotypes with the main character, who sees only one, and that one, a painful one from his past. (He learns to see and respond to PEOPLE.)

A source for some of the cultural confusions I've alluded to above seems to be well-covered in a recent revise of a book detailing the history of Africa. This book is unusual in that it takes an unflinchingly honest view of colonialism, past and present. It seeks to focus on HISTORY, not political views.

I'm learning a lot. I am sure I will need to re-read it several times before tackling the longer history reference that follows it with more detail.

This first one is written by people whose own culture of origin is not too widely different from mine. It's full of concepts that take a bit of time to wrap the head around. I suspect that would be true not only for this "white" euro-american raised-poor bluntspeaker but for just about anyone of any experience I can think of. Well worth the study time.

I hope the second book on my shelf will include a bit of my own familiar culture and a bit if afro-centric perspective. Because the third one will be almost entirely afro-centric; by then I hope to have a good grounding of the basic facts of history from which to take in new info and perspectives that ALSO will be quite challenging intellectually and emotionally.

~S~

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:58 AM

"I'm looking at a Maori face now that, if she moved here, would be assumed to be AA."

Do you really think so? Polynesians aren't very similar in appearance to Africans. IMO they're very dissimilar.

So, all Americans with a slightly darkish skin tone (and who don't also originally herald from Europe), automatically receive the "African" prefix, *irrespective* of their actual personal ancestry and cultural origins? Or am I wrong on that?

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 12:03 PM

I didn't think there were any Maori in "Rabbit-Proof Fence" - I thought it was entirely about Australian treatment of Aboriginals?

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: meself
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 12:03 PM

I fear WY.... has confused Maoris with Aboriginal Australians ("Aborigines" - not sure what the preferred term is nowadays). (Maoris: New Zealand. Different bunch of people.)

Subject: Personal Learning Style
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 12:19 PM

No, when I watch a movie for study purposes I am also Googling around all kinds of things, and that's how I "put" a Maori face into the Aussie film.

The learning-the-unknown process is messy, as I have said elsewhere. For my learning style, that means letting it ALL in (as much of "Whatever I'm Curious About" as I can get immersed in), without regard for sorting it all out till later. There'a a lot in my soup right now. :~) Apparently it's the whole southern hemisphere at the moment. :~)

RE: "automatically" in a post upthread-- nothing in the US is automatic. It's all wet cats being hereded up ropes. :~) Country too big (and very largely-unexaminedly), diverse. Which is why it tugs me to Look Into It. I respond to those Tugs. Thus I learn.

~S~

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: meself
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 12:26 PM

"No, when I watch a movie for study purposes I am also Googling around all kinds of things"

Hmmm ... that strikes me as a little paradoxical - but whatever sorta kinda works for ya -

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 01:01 PM

Maori, Hmong, "all sorts of things," "whatever I'm curious about," etc.
Nothing to do with African non-Americans in Black liberation.

Subject becoming confused, more a subject for scrapbooks, not Mudcat.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 01:07 PM

I'm missing the err focus likewise.

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 01:12 PM

"The learning-the-unknown process is messy, as I have said elsewhere. For my learning style, that means letting it ALL in (as much of "Whatever I'm Curious About" as I can get immersed in), without regard for sorting it all out till later."

A short but clearly phrased question thrown open for general discussion on the board, might be useful?

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:42 PM

Once I KNOW what I will narrow my focus down to, of course-- I often do that. This is the pre-focus phase of a Self Directed Learner (adult ed term).

As I said in the OP, I'm short on time and thinking about a lot of things. It's OK with me if the replies are not too focused-- they have been more helpful than each of you probably knows, and I appreciate your time.

As far as movies and Googling-- sure, if it's study time, I'm multitasking wirelessly. I often have a doc open, too, to make quick notes. From there I gather learning resources in all media.

~S~

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 05:00 PM

Will SDL ever get on track,
No, never on track,
Focus still unknown;
Sinking down in the multitask morass
God knows who'll save her ---

Subject: RE: African-non-Americans in Black Liberation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:06 PM

???

Excuse me?

~S~