BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?

Subject: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:15 PM

Just wondering.

Here's the definition of dyscalculia...

http://www.dyscalculiaforum.com/viewpage.php?page_id=18

I've known for many years about this particular problem, and I've known for about 20 years that I have it, but I've never met anyone else who had it, or I never knew anyone had it, anyway. Anyone here who has this or knows someone who does?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:29 PM

Can not do math in my head. I have to write down the problem. I excelled in math but only because I recognized the wording in problems - the teachers were not very creative so the problems repeated the same issue with different numbers. I have a phenomenal memory and excelled through memory although I had no clue what the math meant.
This weekend I was watching TV and a cartoon show came on in which the characters used fractions to save the world. My brain simply glazed over. It was geared to 10-12 year olds and I was mystified. But give me a pen and paper and I can solve almost anything.

I also have zero sense of direction. The sun rises in the east and I still can't find east. Made for interesting flying lessons but that is another story. My co-workers think it is hysterical that I need a map of Old Port just to find my way around the corner. Can't explain why but I am always lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: Cats
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:11 PM

I have about 20 students at school with this diagnosed. It is not as commonly diagnosed as Dyslexia but in the realms of Special Needs teachers it has been known about and worked with for many, many years

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:18 PM

I read in the dyscalculia forum that the actual numbers of people who have it are about the same as dyslexia, but that far fewer people know about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:25 PM

There are also a lot of people in there who are saying that a lot of people are unwilling to believe it exists even when they are told that it does. That's certainly been my experience over the years.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:51 PM

I am numerically challenged. I have to look back at a printed phone number for every single number before entering on phone keypad. Always incorrectly transcribing numbers. Math classes - a nightmare I still have.

Navigationally challenged too with trouble determining left from right.

I think all of these problems are linked.

On the other hand, I like sudoku. But it's not numbers to me, it's patterns, which I am good with. Also good at mechanical reasoning according to the Indiana tests.

Where my partner lectures, the college has dyscalculia on the list with dyslexia for receiving assessment and support. Guess things are a bit different in the UK regards this disability.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:03 PM

Just as there are savants who can do complex math in their heads, there are those who are just not 'wired' for numbers..in various ways. It should be more widely studied and teachers and parents told what to look for. There are ways to help and cope..*IF* the problem is identified.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

(I once had to show a flow chart to a project manager. He refused to look at, and explained he couldn't follow it. I said, "Oh, it's similar to a road map." He said, "I don't do road maps, either!"

I said "How do you get places?" He said, "I get directions like 'go 7 miles on route 45 and turn left at the white fence, then watch for the red mailbox'...etc." It was an awakening to me about the different ways our heads work.)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:04 PM

It's recognized as a disability in the US, but a lot of people are uninformed about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:43 PM

Yes...*I* was uninformed until today. It makes perfect sense that it IS a separate, but related problem, to recognized issues such as dyslexia.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:18 PM

Brains work in different ways at different times and under different conditions.

When I did the bellyflop in my kitchen and broke my arm, the first thing I did was try to stand up, of course. Then I knew I needed to call someone for help -- I wouldn't be able to get to the ER by myself, one handed. I wanted to call Jeri who lives near, knows the phone number of where Tom was working and has a very easy phone number to remember -- but I could not wrap my brain around it.

What I COULD do was call my up-the-hill neighbor -- whose phone # was our prefix (which I could remember) plus lower left hand corner, upper left hand corner, upper right hand corner and lower right hand corner.

I could remember the three number prefix that I'd known for almost 30 years, but I couldn't remember a simple mnemonic that had been in my brain less than 10 years. But I COULD remember a pattern of numbers on the phone keypad.

I found it fascinating.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:30 PM

My son has an uncanny sense of direction though suffering from a variety of learning disabilities.
Once we were driving across upstate NY on the thruway and came to a detour near Corning. I got lost, as usual. He, age 10, said "There is a church on the corner. Turn left and left at the park. It will atke us back to the main road." I was skeptical but he was right. The church, the park, the turns...I had covered this area for ten years as part of my sales territory. He had been there once on a trip to the Corning Glass Museum and a fair the summer before. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: GUEST,LynnT
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:56 PM

I have known for years that I have trouble distinguishing between, say, "430", "43,000", and "340,000" -- they are all threes and fours and zeroes, the order has no particular meaning to me unless I concentrate. Too many consecutive numbers and my mind just glazes over. It makes budget work tough. My interns do math in their heads, and they know they to carefully check any figures in documents I build -- just as I have to check their work for political correctness and appropriate phrasing for a given audience.

Still, there is a separate skill I have heard called "spatial-numeric ability" at which I excel -- I am very good at those tests where you choose which shape will result upon folding up an oddly-shaped piece of paper with markings here and there -- something that I have applied in costumery and woodworking, among other areas. I made my own patterns for stuffed animals and clothing since I was about ten or eleven. It also lets me judge readily whether one item will fit inside or mesh with another -- helps in packing cars, fitting chicken pieces into a pan, or solving picture puzzles. I seem to recall reading somewhere that this trait is inherited father to daughter, mother to son, and cetainly my dad had it but my mom emphatically does not.

Sound familiar?

Lynn T

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:01 PM

I do better with patterns than numbers, too. A few years ago, JtS had a Cougar with a number pad on the door. I had told him that I couldn't remember numbers very well. When he saw that I could open the car using the pad, he was confused. I explained that I could do it, not because I knew the numbers, but because I could remember the pattern of where to put my fingers.

Different numbers are easier for me to remember than others, too. JtS recently had to change cell phone numbers, and it really pissed me off, because the one he used to have was relatively easy to remember, but the new one is extremely difficult. I do better with numbers that sound like poetry when they are spoken, or that have easy shapes to remember and repeated numbers and zeros. A difficult number would be (just a random example) 497 673 2851. An easy one would be 303 404 5505 (easy shape and repetition) and my old childhood address, three forty five, Capron Farm Drive (poetic).

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:07 PM

I don't know if I have very good spatial numeric ability or not. Probably not for the oddly shaped pieces of paper test (thinking about that makes my brain hurt a bit), but maybe for being able to fit things together well in limited space.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:52 AM

LOL! (@ 08 Oct 09 - 01:11 AM)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:53 AM

(Shame that one's going to get deleted.)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 04:21 AM

Thank the gods there's name for it. The mathematical sciences are an arcane mystery to me.

I had the arse belted off me in maths classes at school. To this day I require a six figure telephone number to be set out in two threes.

I did, amazingly, pass 'O' level maths, at the fourth attempt, but I remain convinced to this day that I got through only on the sympathy vote. 'O' level - that dates me, don't it ?

And if I have to do multiplications or divisions - thankfully, occasions are rare - I prefer to do it longhand, or using my trusty slide rule, than a calculator.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 12:49 PM

I think some aspects of the 'skill' or 'problem' change with age.

57563, 54174, 66366, 48212, 123706....... those were my family's licence plate numbers from 1953 to 1957. But don't ask me what mine is today! It doesn't change, and I still can't remember it,

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:07 PM

Yes, I think that the difference is that those of us with dyscalculia have had problems with numbers all our lives. For instance, I have never been able to retain the multiplication tables, no matter how many times I've tried to learn them. Another thing that is common with dyscalculics is the need to use our fingers to help us add things up (we learn how to do it discreetly, however, so most people won't notice). These kinds of things don't change with age or situation, they're with us our whole lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 02:17 PM

4583371 my family phone number when I was a child. I am 51 now and can't remember my mobile phone number or my husband's. But I can remember my mom's phone number.
I can't remember pin for my credit card. I can't remember my internet account number for my current account.

I don't have enough bloody fingers sometimes, and yes I count discreetly.

If I have to count pages of a document for photocopy, I have to mark every 20th page with a sticky note.

We all learn coping mechanisms.

Back to the patterns thing -
I used to make little fabric applique books for babies. Numbers, alphabet, shapes and colours. No problems figuring out how to place the pages upside down , left to right etc. in proper order before stitching so that it came out in sensible order with all images etc in correct direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 02:39 PM

I think we all have our mental quirks.

For instance, I think I'm pretty intelligent, but I have a rather poor memory, especially for numbers. The only phone number I've memorized is my own. I have called my mother weekly for several years, but I still haven't memorized her phone number. I don't know my car's license number. I don't remember what year my car was made. I could never tell you what my salary was, closer than the nearest dollar per hour. If I wanted to know my annual salary, I'd have to do the math: $X * 40 * 52. There were times when I couldn't tell you how old I was, until I subtracted my birth year from the current year.

Of course, I have all these things written down somewhere, and can look them up, if I need to.

The most striking way I notice how different I am from other people, is when I play cards. (My favorite game is hearts.) I marvel at people who can count cards, and who can tell you, at any stage of the game, how many hearts and how many spades have been played, and who is short of what suit. I could never do that. At the end of a hand, a lot of people will want to have a post-mortem discussion: "When you played that ace, I thought you were going to...." I can't comment, because at the end of a hand, I can never remember who played what!

I can do math pretty well, though, at least in practical situations, because I have no trouble remembering the principles that math is based on. I just can't remember the numbers.

For some reason, though, accounting is a different story. Remember the joke about the sea captain that kept a slip of paper in his safe and looked at it every day? When he died, the company broke open the safe and found that it said "Port = left. Starboard = right."

Well, I needed a slip that said, "Debit = add. Credit = subtract." (Or maybe the other way around!) (Yeah, I know, it's not that simple, but I don't want an explanation!)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 02:49 PM

A lot of people with dyscalculia are able to understand the principles that math is based on but can't remember the numbers. That's how it is for me, too. I never got any better than a D in math (and often failed) until I was able to use a multiplication table while taking tests to help me do multiplication and long division. Once I was able to do that, I did very well in math.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 09:55 PM

Now I know! I always thought, and I don't know why, the numeric version of dyslexic was dysnumerate and of dyslexia was dysnumeracy! Wonder where i got that from?

Anyway - Can I do the first dyscalculic joke?

Did you hear about the mega computer that though the answer to the universe and everything was 24?

No?

Oh well, I'll get my coat...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 09:57 PM

BTW - I 'see' in numbers, can use binary and octal almost as easily as decimal but still can't remember my mobile phone number...

Subject: RE: BS: Any Dyscalculics in the Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:44 PM

That's the second joke. The first one got deleted. It was very funny, too. (An anonymous guest posted the 100th post.)