Is This Man An Icon ?

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:27 AM

"Donovan, described by BMI as "a man of unfathomable talent"."

Wow, what the heck?

I mean, he is/was an interesting musician/performer/artist, but really that description is over the top. Folks who write such things are deluded, uninformed, cons, or just blissfully ignorant. One doesn't have to plumb the depths of culture far to find lots more deeper talent.

Unfathomable hyperbole.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:38 AM

I lost part of my post on edit, my computer clumsiness being "unfathomable".

Icon and unfathomable applies to Shakespeare, Bach, and a few others.

I rather like Donovan though, in the same way I like lots of other singer/songwriters. The best part of this thread is hearing experiences from folks who actually knew or met the guy.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:02 AM

For those that missed out, "Folk Rock" was a term that was coined in the 60's to describe the recordings made by coffee house style singer-songwriters that had rock-style drums , bass, and guitar.

The are two textbook examples. First, Simon and Garfunkel's "The Sounds of Silence" which was originally recorded and released with a simple acoustic guitar accompanimentSounds of Silence, original , and was then released as a single after drums, bass, and electric guitar leads were added by producer Tom Wilson Sounds of Silence ,Mono 45 . Second is The Byrds' "Mr. Tambourine Man", which was recorded using the same musicians and studios that were used by Phil Spector and Brian
Wilson for many of their hits. Mr. Tambourine Man, 45


Though it might seem artificial and even crassly commercial to add rock drums and the rest to "folk" music, the fact was that the underlying pulse for a lot of 60's "folk" was really based on R&B and Everly Brothers style Rock and Roll.

Dylan himself said that even on his earliest acoustic recordings, he was always playing rock and roll, and if you go back and listen, the recordings really do have a driving rock sensibility to them, even When it's just Bob and his guitar. Mr. Tambourine Man

Back to Donovan: even his early recordings have very strong R&B and Jazz sensibilities that run counter to the "Minstrel Boy" image that he cultivated when he was first performing.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:31 AM

70s Prog, true to the Zeitgeist always had its folkier side; Gentle Giant were amazing in this respect, and even as a recorder consort they could still tear the place apart. I never did get folk rock per-se, though I gave Battle of the Field a spin on our new turntable last night and it still sounds pretty good, but that's just an exception proving a rule - my darkest dreams are still haunted by certain Elves, all 700 of the little feckers! Malicorne were a cut above, but when you've been brought up on The Manband, Gong and Magma as well as Harry Cox, Seamus Ennis and Davie Stewart, then the whole concept of folk rock just pales. That said Bright Phoebus is a national treasure; I once argued with a bunch of Fairport fans that the only time R.Thompson et al had come close to truly honouring their folk roots was on Danny Rose, but I was very drunk at the time. That said, I like the story that Peter Bellamy accepted the invitation to become Fairport's singer. How would that have turned out?

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:47 PM

Donovan claims that he didn't copy Dylan, but rather, like Dylan, he was influenced by Woody; also, Donovan claims to have invented folk-rock, and that The Beatles got the idea for "All You Need is Love" from him. He also, claims - and believe him here - that he taught The Beatles to finger pick in a style that we now call "pattern playing", and that "Blackbird", for example, grew out of that style of picking.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:55 PM

There is no doubt that Catch the Wind caught a lot of peoples attention. I remember John Denver saying that he was obsessed with it at one point; and it has been covered by lots of artists. Here is a very early recording by Bruce Springsteen. Interestingly, one poster on Youtube points out that Bruce was only 17/18 when he recorded this, but, more to the point, Donovan was only 17/18 when he wrote it!

Bruce sings Donovan

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 03:16 PM

Dare I say that in my youth when hearing the likes of Donovan, Dylan, S&G, and others noted in this thread, they were all mushed together on the local rock station and, so, were considered rock and or pop-rock by most people I knew? Granted we lived in an isolated valley in the far reaches of Colorado, but I don't think any of us had heard of folk rock at the time. I may have been a bit young to catch all of the nuances of the times, though, I grant. I didn't care then and and don't now, though. I know what I like and I don't care what it is labelled.:-)

As for Americans, I would also say give Willson & McKee a listen. (Pronounced Mc-KYE) I've been one of their fans for years and Kim, esp. just keeps turning out more and more incredible songs and she is INCREDIBLE on the hammer dulcimer. Folks may remember I used to sing her song, The Pattern, in HearMe and PalTalk. You can hear more samples and other stuff on their website HERE. I see by their schedule, they are finally getting some much deserved recognition.

kat

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:35 PM

I know what I like and I don't care what it is labelled.:-) >>>

A fairf view for anyone living on a desert island. But, if communication is to be attainable, a reasonable degree of taxonomy or categorisation is essential. Were it not so, there wouldn't be quite so many 'What is Folk?'threads going on ad inf, would there?

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:22 AM

Not sure about that. That may be a bit like if there's no one to hear it does a tree make a sound in the forest when it falls. If no one tells me it's folk, is it still folk? Or vice versa, even.**bg**

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:52 AM

Icon maybe, maybe not

I've always loved Donovan's singing of
Black Is the Color (Trad)
Atlantis
Catch The Wind
Colours
Epistle To Dippy
Barabajagal
There Is A Mountain
Season Of The Witch
Sunshine Superman
To Susan On The West Coast Waiting
Universal Soldier (Buffy St Marie)
Wear Your Love Like Heaven
Guinevere
The Tinker and the Crab

After his double album 'Wear Your Love Like Heaven' & 'A Gift From A Flower to a Garden' which there were songs on which I loved & some of them I still do, I began to fade as a fan. (my kids loved falling to sleep to my singing of some of his songs from both of those, some 2 decades after I first heard them)
He also was on the scene when it came to protesting the Viet Nam War through music & his career suffered some for it too, not nearly as much or as bad as Buffy but he was cut too. He has possibily over 30 LP's to his name & I'm not gonna count the number of hits but I'm sure it's more than most here who are tossing the shit his way. Am I making anybody squirm.
I love Trad music as much as anyone one else here & probably am a bit stiffer about mixing it up with rock & singer/songwriter stuff but when he was in his prime he was well loved by those of my generation that didn't have their heads stuck up their asses or weren't straight laced trad-o-fucks.
I never met the guy but as far as I know anyone who did that I spoke to spoke highly of him (not like that Dylan guy, who was a pain in the ass to those that I've met who've met him, yet he's an icon), his accessability & his human humbleness.

Someone wants to give him some praise, "LET THEM" their are plenty of famous fucks out there in folkdom that got a lot more with folkies approval & who deserved far less.
Many folkies came to this music through the likes of him & a good few others of his time & day

If he were in my area, I'd go to see his in a New York second, as I would John Sebastain, Buffy St Marie, Spider John Keorner, Paul Butterfield, Richie Havens, Grace Slick, Jim Kweskin, etc.

Barry

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:23 AM

Who cares??...Practice your axe!...or ax....or acts!

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:43 AM

Good talk, Barry. I've just been listening to the Donovan/Troubadour retrospective, and it's all good. And we all learned "Universal Soldier" from him--

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: rich-joy
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:38 AM

Icon - no - but nevertheless, good at what he does!

But do checkout Donovan's biography :

"The Hurdy Gurdy Man"

from 2005 - I found it rather interesting reading!


Cheers, R-J

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: meself
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 09:05 AM

'And we all learned "Universal Soldier" from him-- '

Um - not 'all' of us - I didn't know he had recorded it until I read this thread - it was always a Buffy song to me. Not to take anything away from Donovan by the way; I always like him. Must say, I'm a little surprised by some of the antipathy toward him here.

Speaking of Buffy - warning: thread drift ahead - anyone care to elaborate on how her opposition to the Vietnam War effected her career (as per Barry Finn's post above)?

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 09:32 AM

Chimes of Freedom:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1PDaw7s3pY

I don't think it sounds like Catch the Wind at all [at all!]



**********

Irregardless [not really a word!] of my earlier post, I don't think Donovan's an 'icon' [whatever that's supposed to mean in this context], but I always enjoyed his performances way back when.

Catch the Wind's still popular in seshes all over this area [NW Eng & N.Wales] , as are one or two of his others, Colours, Why do you treat me like you do, Dona Dona

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 09:54 AM

I love my shirt
I love my shirt
My shirt is so comfortably lovely


Unfathomable talent - a bit of a back-handed compliment.


E-lec-tri-cal banana
Going to be a sudden craze

Not an icon but always fun to listen to.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:06 AM

just to add a slightly different perspective..

back in the early 70's when people my age were in their early to mid teens..

Donovan's career was loosely evaluted as divided into 3 phases.

1] The really good post 'sunshine superman' psycedelic pop-folk-rock LPs and 45s
peaking with "Gift from a Flower" double LP boxset

2] The not quite so good late 60's early 70's tax exiled 'mature earnest artist'
and post breakdown career comeback phase..
All downhill after the best tracks on "Open Road" & "Cosmic Wheels"

3] The early dated solo 'troubadour' recordings which mostly sounded a bit dull
and trite in comparison, and were devalued by association
from all the 'cash in' cheapo budget label "Golden Hour of.."
type re-releases..

But if it wasn't for Donovan, I probably wouldn't have so easily got into Pentangle..
and then start scouring local Library's for other folk artist and 'Topic' LPs..

Then a few years later as Punk rock was raging
in the big urban cities,

Steve Hillage covered "Hurdy Gurdy" man..

and all the pieces fell into place..

.. my small market town in the west country become a natural breeding ground
for adolescent 'cider and mushroom and pothead pixie' punk folk bands...

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:26 AM

In his recording of ' Universal Soldier ' Donovan wouldn't sing,

" Without him how would Hitler have condemned him at DACHAU " , he sang some nonsense word for fear of offending anyone.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:30 AM

.........& the unforgetable 'Intergalactic Laxative'!!

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 11:02 AM

Dave H: I don't think that's the case! I'm sure Donovan just couldn't make out what Buffy said. American's, as you know, speak/sing in very strange accents!

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 11:05 AM

"Dachau" sounds pretty clear to me in this LIVE RECORDING.

Barrydarlin'...I think I am in love. Please don't ever stop telling it like it is!

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: open mike
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 11:54 AM

Buffy St. Marie is not an american,
she is Canadian, and they talk funny, too, eh?

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:11 PM

Dave Hansen--According to someone or other at "Straight Dope", Donovan originally sang, "Liebau"," which was the German name for the Polish town of Lubawka. During the war, Lubawka was the site of a training centre for the Hitler-Jugend (Hitler Youth). There was also a labour camp situated in the vicinity."

Meself--Donovan, not Buffy, had the big a hit single of "Universal Soldier"--

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:17 PM

Well, Buffy is a north American!

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:45 PM

In that live performance, I distinctly hear DUH-cow.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:59 PM

And, before I forget, contrary to what any of you may think, DONOVAN IS AN ICON!!!!

There, I said it, and it is true. He was and still is the ultimate symbol of the Peace/Love generation. They use his songs in movies, commercials, and even cartoons when they want to evoke those good old incense burning, pot smoking, Maharishi-filled days when we thought that all you needed was love.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:00 PM

Sounded more like Daccar to me.

Dave HANSON, note M Ted not Hansen

Dave H

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:00 PM

And lest we forget, this is the man who wrote Hurdygurdy Man. That alone should stand him in good stead for icon status.

When I was a kid, the one "folk" album in my parents' house was a budget Donovan album called "Universal Soldier". I loved it. Of course, at the time I didn't know it was "folk"... I only found that out later. Then I started posting at Mudcat and found out it wasn't...

It's enough to turn you mellow yellow.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:23 PM

Sorry I misspelled your name, DaveH, no slight was intended--I listened to the cut from Fairytale this afternoon, and he does seem to be singing "Liebau"--he did sing "Dachau" in later years, however. Till I read the "Straight Dope" account, I hadn't any clue as to what or why he was singing, however, and have no particular attachment to that explanation.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 11:53 PM

I am very nearly an icon. I was told the other day that I am already a cult. I think that is what he said anyway...

First there is no mountain
Then there is a mountain
Then there is no mountain
Then there is.

Makes sense to me anyway.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 02:49 AM

Fine by me M Ted, incidently I was a fan in his early years, still got the odd vinyl album and a CD or two.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 08:07 AM

Is being an "icon" worthy of great status than being "a legend in your own time"?

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: meself
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 08:55 AM

"I was a fan in his early years"

Meanwhile, (in the spirit of some of his lyrics), I was an air conditioner.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 05:32 PM

Well that's a breath of fresh air meself.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:16 PM

split it into 4 periods
1-learning the folk idiom eg to try for the sun
2 -psychedelic folk/rock eg Celeste
3 pop star..some good songs
4 shit

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

and btw i am a donovan fan
bootleg material from 65-69 proves the excellence of his talent
anything after 1973 is dodgy in quality

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM

I

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:02 PM

I cant believe some of the posts I have read.
Donovan is a good singer,his words are clear,he is not singing nonsense at any point in The Universal Soldier.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:07 PM

I think some of his later work should definitely be featured in the "wimp" thread that's running at the moment.

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM

"The Universal Soldier."

I think you know that was written by Buffy St Marie.