Stop the English Defence League

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 01:02 PM

Sorry, Guest was me. I still think there's no earthly point in adding to a 4-year dead thread.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 12:57 PM

Unfortunately, it hasn't. This thread should have. Why on earth did you feel the the need to resurrect what had been dead for 4 years?

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 12:05 PM

Too funny!

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/were-good-thanks-england-tells-edl-2013052870112

Looks like a UK version of The Onion.

The group has run it's course.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 01:13 PM

aROUND 60 Welsh Defence League thugs gathered in a Swansea city centre pub as they readied themelves with alcohol to swagger through the city centre.
They never made it.Some 500 anti fascists occupied the open space across the road and the WDL went nowhere.
They were soon snapping out nazi stiff arm salutes in their frustration. One local anti nazi resident hung an anti nazi flag from a window which the thugs did not notice for quite some time.Eventually it was noticed and grabbed by a thug and burnt.The South Wales Evening Post has around 50 photos on line [go to thisissouthwales.co.uk and click on photos. You will see the fascists saluting there in all their vileness.
Eventually the police escorted them back to the train station where they dispersed back to the bolt holes from which they emerged.
ifor

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 08:31 AM

the only reason i am opposed to sharia law in the UK is simple.
we have our own laws to govern the behaviour of the people in this country.
other countries have their own laws too, if we go to any other country i would expect to be dealt with within that countries laws.

i don't really know very much about sharia law.

i have to admit to missing out whole swaths of this debate as i just couldn't get my head round what was being talked about, i will try to go back and have another look. sorry for being very lazy.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 08:02 AM

Getting worried, are you, Den? Good!

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: mandotim
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 07:58 AM

Guest Den...This thread is not about the BNP, it's about the English Defence League. Surely you're not implying that the EDL and the BNP are one and the same, are you?

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:39 PM

Islam doesn't appear to be any worse or any better than other religions. Just the fact that it's a religion, I would think, would be enough to want to get rid of it.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 03:40 PM

I am aware for example of (I think it is) Jane Grey's case, with the summary "per anum sed non per vaginam cognovit", but I am not aware of the ecclesiastical courts having had jurisdiction in the UK to order execution. Buggery (save as saved by Wolfenden's Act) is surely still a crime, although I have not been to the Sexual Offences Act as amended today.

I agree that ecclesiastical matters have no place in civil or criminal courts.

I also agree that inapt criticism of Sharia Law ought not to found opposition to Islam. However, I do think that there are many aspects of Sharia Law (AFAIK) that are both wrong and inappropriate to have as part of our (UK - or English and Welsh, as the case may be) law.

But I do think that the Spanish Inquisition typifies Roman Catholicism of its era, and indeed Christianity for a long time. Which is why of course the word "Crusade" is so inflammatory to Muslims - not the Inquisition itself but the attitude it typified.

In short, I am in principle no less tolerant of Islam than I am of other religions - but also think that Islam has at least its share of irrational and intolerable rules, all based on theocracy not logic. Part of the problem of debating these things is that (AFAIK, again) the world of Islam did not have a period equivalent to "the enlightenment" - a technical term for the period when logic and science came to prevail in temporal matters and to outweigh "faith" as such. Hence the current Iranian constitutional problem. That is an irony, given the advances that the world of Islam gave to medicine and mathematics and I think engineering - but it does not of itself make Islam any more hateful than any other religion. Many countries of many religions still have physical punishments.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 08:39 AM

Richard, many people were in fact executed under ecclesiastical law...the courts sercular and temporal struggled for centuries to gain the upper hand. The cause celebre was the crime of sodomy....the responsibility for which was rested from the ecclesiastical courts, speeding their decline in indluence.
   My point, however, is that abuses of any legal code does not automatically condems the 'parent' philosophy. I am against all forms of eclesiastical interference in legal systems....I dislike, however,abuses of sharia law being used to whip up general islamophobia.
The use of these barbaric practices in SOME muslim countries, bespeaks the culture of that area, not islam as a whole, in the same way the the Spanish Inquisition is not typical of a christian response to mercy and forgiveness.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 04:04 AM

Wel, no Tug, because the centuries of capital punishment in these isles both before and afer the respective unions of Wales Scotland and Ireland were not effected pursuant to a code of ecclesiastical law, on the one hand, and because the proper application of Sharia law would not have permitted that stoning on the other hand.

I am not in favour of the application of Sharia law in the UK (nor the Torah), not even by the agreent of the affected parties in that those systems deprive or might deprive those properly the subject of the jurisdiction of the UK courts of rights that the governments of the UK have seen fit to bestow upon their citizens, rights that no secular UK court would hold could be waived by contract. But that is no reason to criticise Sharia law on false grounds.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 07:51 PM

It was an occupying militia determined to remove evidence of their rapes, wasn't it?
yes, but still carried out under Sharia law, just like centuries of capital punishment in britain carried out under the Christian law of 'Thou shall not kill'

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 06:37 PM

That is an admirable document.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 01:23 PM

[From the SACC mailing list - see http://www.sacc.org.uk]

SCOTLAND UNITED

'Scotland United' is a coming together of trade unionists, political parties, anti-racist organisations, and faith groups for one purpose to hold a rally to celebrate multicultural Glasgow on Saturday 14th November in Glasgow Green provisionally at midday. We are also calling for the banning of the anti-Muslim protest planned by racist bigots, including the Scottish Defence League and English Defence League (EDL) in Glasgow city centre on the same day.

Previous EDL demonstrations have seen their thugs attack Asian people, chant "Muslims out" and worse at passers-by and make "Seig Heil" Nazi salutes. It is vital that we do not allow these racist thugs to terrorise and intimidate Muslim and Asian people. It is not a time to hide but to stand up for a multicultural Glasgow, a multicultural Scotland.

The fascists of the BNP or the SDL/EDL can only defeated by mass action and solidarity. So Scotland United will be the bringing together of all who wish to live in a multicultural, multiracial, democratic society. We need your voices, your music, and your skills to show the true diversity of our city. So ask your workmates, friends and family to join our rally. Let's turn Saturday 14th November into a day that Glasgow and Scotland says loud and clear we don't want fascists on our streets.

There are four immediate steps you can take:

1. Circulate the statement below condemning the SDL and email Scotland United to add your name as a supporter of the statement.

"We the undersigned strongly oppose plans by the 'Scottish Defence League' - a group linked to the fascist BNP - to demonstrate in Glasgow city centre and march on the local mosque. The SDL is a racist group dedicated to attacking Asian people and Muslims. Islamophobia - bigotry against Muslims - is as unacceptable as any other form of racism. Its aim is to divide us by making scapegoats of one community, just as the far-right did with Jews in the 1930s. We have a simple message for these racist and fascist groups. We will not let you turn the clock back to the 1970s when their thugs could attack black and Asian people with impunity. An injury to one is an injury to all - and their attempts to target and scapegoat Muslims will fail. Today they threaten the Mosque, tomorrow it could be a Synagogue, Temple or Church. Today they threaten Muslims, tomorrow it could be Jewish people, Hindus, Sikhs, black people, lesbians & gay men, trade unionists, travellers or Eastern Europeans. There is no place for Nazis, racists or the BNP in GlasgowÌs multi-racial, multi-cultural and multi-religious community. We call on the Leader of Glasgow City Council and the Police to ban the SDL/EDL action."

2. Publicise and attend the rally called 'Scotland United' on Saturday 14th November in Glasgow Green at midday provisionally.

3. Please write to the Glasgow City Council and the Police calling for a ban of the SDL racist action.

Cllr Steven Purcell, Leader, Glasgow City Council, City Chambers, Glasgow, G2 1DU (steven.purcell -at- councillors.glasgow.gov.uk

Chief Constable Stephen House, Strathclyde Police, Police Headquarters, 173 Pitt Street, Glasgow G2 4JS (contactus -at- strathclyde.pnn.police.uk)

4. Invite a speaker to your trade union, community or faith group. Please email scotlandunited -at- gmail.com

Yours faithfully

Aamer Anwar- Human Rights Lawyer, Osama Saeed- Scottish Islamic Foundation, Dave Moxham Deputy General Secretary STUC, Kenny Ross Fire Brigades Union Scotland Regional Sec, Scottish Trades Union Congress, STUC Black Workers Committee, Glasgow Anti Racist Alliance (GARA), Unite Against Fascism (UAF),Sejinder Singh Sikhs for Scotland, Indian Workers Association, Mohammed Asif-Scottish Afghan Society, Malcolm Chisholm MSP (Labour), Bob Doris MSP (SNP), Pauline McNeill MSP (Labour), Elaine Smith MSP (Labour),Robert Brown MSP (Liberal Democrats), Sandra White MSP (SNP), Shirley-Anne Somerville MSP (SNP), Dr Bill Wilson SNP, Anne McGaughlin MSP (SNP), Michael McMahon MSP (Labour), Alasdair Allan MSP (SNP), Patrick Harvie MSP (Greens),Bill Kidd MSP(SNP), Robina Qureshi-Director Positive Action in Housing, Tommy Sheridan, Solidarity, Rev Ian Galloway Church of Scotland, Marion Hersch UCU Exec, Scotland Against Criminalising Communities, Glasgow Campaign to Welcome Refugees, Elaine C Smith, Mark Thomas Comedian, Hope not Hate (Searchlight), Show Racism the Red Card, Stop the War Coalition, etc etc

A LOT MORE CONTINUE TO BE ADDED

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 09:12 AM

Richard Bridge "Is that real, or did someone make it as a pisstake?"

I think you can take it as deadly serious. The EDL have an IT consultant who works in the City of London. My guess is he put it together for them.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 08:39 AM

But it wasn't a stoning in accordance with Sharia law, was it? It was an occupying militia determined to remove evidence of their rapes, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: jeddy
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 08:38 AM

whether that video was real or not it is certainly powerful stuff.

those placards have certainly been photo shopped but there will always be those who believe them.

i can't deny that alot of the terrorists today are muslim, however the one thing that came to me while watching that was the mirror image of the old world christian church.

the pictures of the templar knights, are a mirror image of what they are trying to scare us with now.
our god is better so you should worship him.
our religion is superior, so thats the faith you should have.

did anyone else see that ?

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 08:15 AM

I challenge you to go and find me evidence of a woman stoned to death.

Somalia: Girl stoned was a child of 13

Wolfgang (repeating Amnesty's lies?)

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 07:16 AM

Is that real, or did someone make it as a pisstake?

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 05:08 AM

If there's anyone out there who thinks the EDL aren't a bunch of complete whackos, and very dangerous whackos at that, this might help you change your mind.

England, My England .

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:25 AM

Are you sure you are not Keith A of Hertford?

You border on the malicious.

Are you adding "malicious" to the list of insulting labels you apply to me for daring to disagree with you Royston?

Your smearing of people is truly malicious.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 08:58 PM

what did you guys thing of the programme?

jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:12 PM

To give you an idea of the racist thugs we are up against..about two years ago a BNP thug of about 40 was convicted of racially abusing a young asian woman who was walking by on the pavement.
He chanted racist and sexist obsenities at her and then started a seig heil routine.
Unfortunately for him a very brave welsh woman took down his car details and followed him to a depot of some kind and phoned the police. So he got his day in court.This bully was like a lamb coming out of court.
ifor

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 01:05 PM

I was in Manchester city centre last Saturday. There were rather a lot of shaven-headed 'knuckle-draggers' around (mostly spilling out of pubs). There were also lots of (what I think) were rugby fans and loads of other people (it was very crowded).

Like a complete idiot I wandered into Piccadilly, to get the bus home, at about 4:00 pm. Up until then all I had seen was an unusual number of the aforementioned 'knuckle-draggers' and a police helicopter hovering - I had seen no signs of any demo. The demo was, of course, in Piccadilly Gardens. I caught glimpses of the demo through the massed ranks of GMP's finest. I got to Portland St. where they had formed a line across the road. They were letting people out, but not in (I heard a copper scream, "go away!" at a rather inocuous looking youth). They didn't even glance at me - good job I wasn't wearing the jackboots!

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:50 AM

whats a suprise mr happy?

j x x x

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:39 AM

What a surprise!!

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:38 AM

thanks owen, you can be sure we will be watching.

les, i am not sure if there was that much violence, but i am still glad i didn't go. being hemmed in by that many police didn't look much fun, the fact that we couldn't have gotten out if we had needed to is enough to justify not going.

i salute all those who did go, for the right reasons.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:24 AM

They'll certainly be parading their stupidity tonight. In the Radio 4 trailer the investigator said he was taken up to a deserted warehouse where he was met by a number of EDLs (15 I think he said), wearing balaclavas. Investigator complained the balaclavas were intimidating. "How do you think we feel", replied one of them, "when we're confronted by Muslims wearing burkhas?" Hands up everyone who's going to feel more intimidated by a roomful of thugs in balaclavas than by a couple of tiny little Muslim women wearing veils. Before you answer, the rattling sound is my knees knocking every time I enter an Asian shop.

This bunch of clowns then produced a swastika flag (hands up every law abiding tolerant citizen who would know where he could get hold of one of them), and tried to burn it. The purpose of this jape was to show they weren't Nazis.

The trouble is that the flag was made of some sort of non-inflammable material, and they ended up having to douse it with petrol.

"I'm not a racist, mate. It's just that I've got no brains."

Unfortunately, the programme won't be laughs all the way. The BBC have connected EDL to some high flying IT consultant who works in the City of London, and they've also uncovered links with the Ulster Defence Association. Nasty. Very nasty.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 06:56 AM

"To judge from the programme trailer on Radio 4 this morning, it should be very revealing."

I heard that and it seems that the EDL is yet another organisation for the inarticulate and feeble-minded. GUEST's post above reinforces that. It's so amusing the way they constantly shoot themselves in the foot by parading their ignorance and stupidity.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 06:42 AM

For your information Mr Guest (Steve or Helen B, or whatever alias you are currently using), organisations like the Council of Muslim Mosques have been very active in combatting Islamic terrorism.

But it's no use telling you that. You know perfectly well that every single Muslim in the world was behind those London bombings. Just as every single white person in the country was involved in the David Copeland bombings and Robert Cottage and Neil Lewington. Remember the campaign of terror which Column 88 sought to wreak on its opponents? Every single white person in Britain took part in that.

Well in your eyes they must have done. If the entire Muslim community of Britain, of the world for that matter, can be blamed for the actions of a miniscule number of pathological nutters, then you personally are to blame for every single act of aggression committed in the name of white people.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:23 AM

BBC2's Newsnight is broadcasting a feature on the English Defence League tonight, 12 October. The programme starts at 22-30hrs. To judge from the programme trailer on Radio 4 this morning, it should be very revealing.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 03:16 PM

The Manchester Council of Mosques advised people not to go to the demo because it would be violent and give the peaceful Muslims of Manchester a bad name.

The problem is that if thousands and thousands of ordinary Mancs had gone it would make an important point but the feeling that their would be violence put many of us off.

were we right?

L in C

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 02:23 PM

---------------------------
MtheGM at 02:08

Quoting Royston "-- What I said is that the actions of some states (and totalitarian states at that) can not be used to judge, condemn, summate, infer or insinuate anything Muslims or Islam. ---

Continuing: "THAT IS NOT what you said. You have shifted your ground. You asserted that a specific penalty was never exacted these days. Now you seem to be saying, "Oh, well, maybe it is at that, but only in the bits where the nutters have taken over" [which I repeat would be the whole of Saudi] "so you can't judge all Islam by it". Make your mind up where you stand.
--------------------------------

What nonsense are you talking about...only in the bits where the nutters have taken over. WTF, you say you want discourse but you can't even read the other side.

I talk about "regimes" in Riyadh and Tehran because they are respectively the capitols of Saudi and Iran. Jesus you're thick.

And how does your assertion I changed my position to one that now admits bad things happen, but you can't damn 2bn individuals for it against my comments:

04:53: MY FIRST POST: "I'm not aobut to start justifying the barbaric things that happen in countries that are essentially about 500 or more years behind us in history"

04:53: "So because some countries might be regarded as 'barbaric', you should not allow a hint of 'but' to come into a discussion about protecting our peaceful individual muslim citizens, partners and colleagues from a group of violent football hooligans."

07:02: "We still come back to the fact that what may or may not have happened in a village in Iran in whenever, is nothing whatever to with Islam or Muslims. Do you really not get that point?"

Now just sod off. Sincerely.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 02:10 PM

MtheGM

The reason this is important and why I will never let it go, is that Muslims happen to be - in so far as the far right is concerned - the 'new Jews'. They are being made scapegoats and victims for all our society's tensions and fears. Now it is Muslims. In the '80s and '90s it was Africans and Carribeans, in the '70s it was Asians generally. It is vile, it is insidious and good people, as you may yourself be one, get slowly caught up in it.

If the fascists were still doing this to Jews then I would be advocating the same message with just as much fervour.

Stop and think. It is important!

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 02:08 PM

-- What I said is that the actions of some states (and totalitarian states at that) can not be used to judge, condemn, summate, infer or insinuate anything Muslims or Islam. ---

THAT IS NOT what you said. You have shifted your ground. You asserted that a specific penalty was never exacted these days. Now you seem to be saying, "Oh, well, maybe it is at that, but only in the bits where the nutters have taken over" [which I repeat would be the whole of Saudi] "so you can't judge all Islam by it". Make your mind up where you stand.

We have argued ourselves into the point where we are both getting to the punchy state of "My mind's made up; don't confuse me with facts". I am not, whatever you might think, Royston, a contentious man, and though I might find reasoned argument sometimes stimulating I can't bear an actual *ill-natured quarrel* which is what we appear to have degenerated into. Not making any accusations: no doubt as much my fault as yours. But I suggest we leave the matter there. Do not trouble to rejoin - not for my benefit anyhow - because I have done. I do not intend to open this thread again. We disagree. Let us agree to do so. Pax. Fanites, Cruzes...

Sincere regards - Michael Grosvenor Myer

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 02:03 PM

I don't think you read the US court decision, M. It was not the Supreme Court.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 02:03 PM

MtheGM

Last attempt at getting sense out of you.

I TOLD YOU!!! That some Muslim states are barbaric. They stone people. They amputate people. WE AGREE.

I GAVE THE PROOF of the barbarism - the Amnesty Report. Are you with me so far?

I accuse you of being a racist. Possibly unwitting. But your failure to listen starts to take you into the category of something quite nasty.

So, we agree that the Saudi and Iranian regimes are vile. Still with me?

I ask you to explain what you think that says about Muslims generally, all 2bn of them, or about Islam or about Muslim in Manchester, Birmingham or in Swansea who are being terrorised by football hooligans.

So don't come back and accuse me, again, of denying that bad things happen - because that makes you a liar. Tell us why you think that Islam and Muslims should all carry some punishment or shame or approbation for the actions of a handful of despots?

Or alternatively confirm that you agree that Islam and Muslims cannot be tarred with the brush of these acts.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 01:53 PM

I've already proved it's true on the evidence of a video. I can't obviously, prove the authenticity of the video, which Royston chooses to question. So, what do you mean, 'prove'? Constant reports and accusations occur which no-one has ever denied — the subject of my current challenge to Royston — tho, as I have said, occasional attempts do get made to :: justify :: them by appeal to the prevalence in those regions of Sharia. These are facts you have made no attempt to deny. You have simply called on me to "prove" what you know I am in no position to "prove", in a fashion which might satisfy the Supreme Court. But I think it reasonable to assert, yet again, that the absence of any denial from any person in whose interest such a denial might be, furnishes strong EVIDENCE, even if not "proof", of the truth of the assertions and reports. What more would you have me do before you are convinced - or even placed in a position to accept that the evidence suggsts that I might just be right and Royston might just not?

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 01:47 PM

MtheGM

Are you sure you are not Keith A of Hertford?

You border on the malicious.

I did not deny that barbaric practices are practiced by barbaric states.

I provided the link to the Amnesty report that explains just how bad things are - in Iran, in Saudi, in the USA. We are only - as you rightly said - 40 years into the abolition of state-sponsored murder.

What I said is that the actions of some states (and totalitarian states at that) can not be used to judge, condemn, summate, infer or insinuate anything Muslims or Islam.

We don't judge ourselves on the barbaric acts of our government, we don't judge Americans on the barabarism of the American President. Why do YOU judge untold and unknown Muslims on the random acts of bile of a group of unelected religious nutters in Riyadh or Tehran?

You need to ask yourself that question.

You didn't meet the challenge either. You just googled, saw some old unauthoritative photoshopped malice that matched your prejudices and you brought it back here. And it didn't even have the video rambled on about.

Damn, are you sure you are not Keith A?

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 01:36 PM

Er - that goes - "lots of people say this so prove it isn't true" rather than "I'll prove it's true". Did you read the US courts' verdict on that against the "birther" colonel?

MtheGM - come on, prove that it is even occasionally true - or better, prove what you implied, namely that it is the norm.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 01:18 PM

The reason I know these things are true, Royston, is that they are never denied; they are, occasionally, attemptedly justifed; but, I repeat, not denied — except, in this present instance, by you: a self-confessed, and for good personal reasons, friend-of-Islam — a designation I assure you I confer with absolutely no pejorative intent but as a simple statement of fact — who have no sort of official standing in the matter. Whom do you purport to represent among the lands and territories in question? You deny them, because, quite understandably, you can't bear the thought of such enormities persisting in a community for which you have such respect and affection. You will forgive me [a formula which unhappily frequently implies its opposite!] if I add that I suspect that, if you hadn't witnessed an amputation yourself, you would probably deny the reality of those too.

So — you issued me with a challenge which I met, though you purport to question the reliability of my evidence.

--- So here is a challenge back for you.---

Out of all the reports of the penalty under question that have appeared, from Iran, Saudi, Malaysia, Nigeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, over the past not-so-many years — all these, except at present Iran & Afghanistan, states with which we are in 'friendly' diplomatic relations — show me, for instance, a Letter to the Editor of The Times, or an authorised Press Release or statement, from an Ambassador or accredited diplomatic representative of any one of these states, denying that such things are part of their laws and asserting that they never happen. At best, I repeat, if driven into a corner where some comment is unavoidable, some junior attaché might mutter that they occur only in regions under Sharia Law, of which such sanctions are an authorised part: we've heard that from Malaysian and Nigerian and Pakistani representatives, as I don't believe even you will have the gall to gainsay — and if not from Saudi ones, that is because the writ of Sharia appears to run throughout the country; whence the prominent public amputation in the facetiously named ChopChopSquare to which you were a self-confessed witness.

I repeat: you issued me with a challenge which I think I met, whatever you might pretend [in either of the accepted senses of that word] to the contrary. Now let's see you meet mine.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 07:33 AM

And for the record MtheGM. I don't claim to "know it all".

I know a lot more than you about these subjects.

I have lived and worked in Muslim countries, my partner of 7 years was Muslim. We remain the best of friends as I do with my many Muslim friends and de-facto family.

If, from a population of 2bn people, you can only find a couple of highly questionable accusations of inhmumane judicial killing and on that evidence you make assertions or insinuations about all those 2bn people and their faith, then you are demonstrably ingnorant and you need to seriously question your assumptions about yourself and the world around you.

If one person is stoned to death, or hanged, or poisoned by a state or any other institution then it is one too many. I see no moral difference between Iran with 346 executions in 2008 -v- USA's 37. (Amnesty international - HERE) To do so is like arguing with the EDL and BNP about the exact numbers gassed or shot by Hitler and SS.

But you can't make assumptions about many based on the acts of a few. That is racism, that is bigotry, that is ignorance.

Or to put it another way; should you (or I) be punished or prejudiced against because our bonkers leader (Tony Blar) invaded Iraq? It's the same as judging Iranians or Muslims for the acts of their bonkers leaders isn't it?

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 07:05 AM

Correction to my earlier post;

The video on the "apostate of Islam" site was allegedly filmed in 1994, not 2004. There were no video phones in 1994.

2004 was Hajiyeh Esmaelvand.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 07:02 AM

On the subject of Hajiyeh Esmaelvand,

The video link is dead.

The photo is of a woman half-buried, but it is stated as being a representation of a woman buried in preparation for stoning. It is explicitly stated NOT to be of Hajiyeh Esmaelvand. There was a lot of internet activity about Hajiyeh Esmaelvand in 2004. There is no evidence anywhere that she existed or that she was killed - in spite of the intervention of Iranian dissidents, Amnesty International and the IHRC.

The IHRC and Amnesty urge caution with regard to stories from Iran because of the number of fakes, scares and misinformation by dissident groups and Western media.

The source of your story is a jewish, anti-muslim activist group in Quebec. The same picture pops up all over the internet with various claims attributed to it by far right, or religious fanatics of Christianity or Judaism. So should we rush to acccept it as gospel truth?

We still come back to the fact that what may or may not have happened in a village in Iran in whenever, is nothing whatever to with Islam or Muslims. Do you really not get that point?

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:50 AM

Your link didn't work, but I found the video on a website called "Apostate of Islam" - a religious nut-group that want the end of Islam. Are you content that this is a reliable source? Frankly the video is so poor that you can't make anything out on it at all. It is poor because they say it was filmed in 2004, but the image corruption is digital, not analogue. It was apparently filmed on a mobile phone, but there were no mobile phone cameras in 2004. Aren't you concerned about this source? And, not that it matters morally, the video itself claims to be an execution of four men, for crimes unspecified. You are claiming stoning of women for adultery.

So MthGM, who exactly needs to check their facts?

Keep digging old chap!

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:13 AM

- Photo : this woman is burried up to her waist in preparation for her stoning to death.
Hajiyeh Esmaelvand was killed in such a manner in December 2004. She was accused of adultery. She is but one victim of this law of the Sharia.
The stoning of women is practiced in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nigeria and Saudi Arabia.

Video of Stoning to Death (click here) -

Here you are, Royston. Found above just by googling "Women stoned to death". Try it yourself, see the photo, watch the video — if you have the nerve. I know we hanged people up to 45 years ago [not 30: not that that makes much of a moral difference; but your arguments might be more convincing if you took the trouble to get your facts right - to the pathetic defenders of the EDL, as well as to me: just think on that, Mr Know-It-All]. Your remarks about wallets in Saudi Arabia sound oddly like a defence or justification of their amputatory practices. Is that the point you really wished to make?

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:03 AM

Well now, I'm not on facebook, so if "Roy Stone" is one of the guest wanker's fake profiles then fine, I hope he/she/it has lots of fun.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Royston
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 04:53 AM

MtheGM

You might want to start a thread about your islamophobia problems because in this context it amounts to 'well, I don't agree with the EDL, but...' or in the alternative 'I'm not a racist, but...'

I'm not aobut to start justifying the barbaric things that happen in countries that are essentially about 500 or more years behind us in history. But I challenge you to go and find me evidence of a woman stoned to death. Go on, try it. You will find that in fact you are repeating other people's lies.

I've been to 'chop chop' square and I've seen an amputation. It is am incredibly rare event because for some strange reason few people steal. If you drop your wallet in Saudi you can relax. It will find it's way back to you before the day is out. But it's the same in most mid east countries including those with less draconian laws. What does that tell us about Muslims?

It's only thirty years since we stopped hanging innocent people for a sense of 'justice seen to be done'. The Americans have the most barbaric system of prisons and of state murder of the innocent and mainly black citizens and they have doctor-murdering religious zealots who call themselves Christian. Should that tell us something about Americans or about us?

So because some countries might be regarded as 'barbaric', you should not allow a hint of 'but' to come into a discussion about protecting our peaceful individual muslim citizens, partners and colleagues from a group of violent football hooligans.

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 12:57 AM

More than 30 people were arrested yesterday after thousands of demonstrators took to the streets in rival race protests in Manchester.

'Supporters of the English Defence League, an alliance of football supporters and far-right activists, were involved in skirmishes with police and a number of counter demonstrators from Unite Against Fascism in Piccadilly Gardens, near the city centre.

Police issued a stern message to troublemakers. Chief Superintendent Gerry Donnellan, of Greater Manchester Police, said: "If people come to Manchester to protest they are legally entitled to do so. If you are going to come to Manchester and think you can get away with shouting racist, inflammatory remarks, you can expect us to respond."

The EDL denies it is racist and insists on its website that it is a "multi-ethnic, multi-faith organisation".' [Just like the BNP. What a coincidence.]

Subject: RE: Stop the English Defence League
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 11:43 PM

Indeed, Jade. I had some sarcastic things to say about The Church's record in such matters on the 'Tommy Tiernan A Racist?' thread [qv], to demonstrate that the pleas of 'context' & 'satire' aren't always enough. But neither, in this instance, is the plea of 'you used to be just as bad'. 'Not any more,' is the answer to that. The Saudis &c are still doing it: unashamedly; selfrighteously — & claiming meanwhile that their 'Sharia' is the ONLY true Islam. I know all religions suffer from such fundamentalism: but they are not generally, you will surely admit, so MAINSTREAM as the imposition of Strict Sharia in these influential [OIL!] sovereign states. And as long as this situation persists, I don't see how 'Love Of Peace' can reasonably be claimed as an attribute of Islam.

I say again that this is perhaps a bit of 'drift', and intended in no way to justify EDL, which, I repeat, I despise. But it still seems to me a point to be made as part of this general discussion.