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folklore: Irish Language Query

Bryn Pugh 14 Oct 09 - 10:11 AM
GUEST 14 Oct 09 - 10:26 AM
Bryn Pugh 14 Oct 09 - 10:44 AM
Michael Harrison 14 Oct 09 - 01:55 PM
Herga Kitty 14 Oct 09 - 06:34 PM
GUEST,TheSameGuest 14 Oct 09 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,The same guest... (for clarity) 14 Oct 09 - 07:23 PM
Michael Harrison 14 Oct 09 - 11:45 PM
GUEST 15 Oct 09 - 02:28 AM
GUEST 15 Oct 09 - 02:45 AM
GUEST 15 Oct 09 - 03:39 AM
Bryn Pugh 15 Oct 09 - 05:04 AM
Bryn Pugh 15 Oct 09 - 06:07 AM
GUEST 15 Oct 09 - 09:13 AM
Jim Dixon 15 Oct 09 - 09:22 AM
Bryn Pugh 15 Oct 09 - 09:29 AM
Jim Dixon 15 Oct 09 - 09:50 AM
Bryn Pugh 15 Oct 09 - 10:40 AM
GUEST 15 Oct 09 - 10:52 AM
GUEST 15 Oct 09 - 11:52 AM
Jim Dixon 15 Oct 09 - 12:30 PM
Declan 15 Oct 09 - 04:25 PM
Bryn Pugh 19 Oct 09 - 07:58 AM
GUEST 19 Oct 09 - 06:29 PM
Bryn Pugh 20 Oct 09 - 05:19 AM
GUEST 20 Oct 09 - 06:19 AM
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Subject: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 10:11 AM

I don't know whether I have mentioned this previously, but I have a fascination with the Irish Free State, the precursor of the modern Republic of Ireland.

IFS existed in time for 15 years (1922 - 1937) so thst it is, effectively, 'frozen in time'.

I collect coins, banknotes and stamps of IFS. I have a raft of Georgie Five overprints with (in a Gaelic script - on some stamps in red and in others in black)

"Rialtar Sealadach na h Eireann 1922" which I believe translates as "Provisional Government of Ireland 1922".

Recently I was chuffed to mintballs (US - delighted) to have acquired a Georgie Five overprint with "Saorstat Eireann 1922", again in a black Gaelic script. I know this to translate as " Irish Free State 1922".

With this came two twopenny (da pinginn) stamps of Eire, with the following overprint in green (Gaelic script) :

"1941 I Gcuimne Aiseirge 1916".

Is any Friend on the 'Cat who has the Irish able to translate for me ?

I am a fluent Welsh speaker, but the Goidelic Celtic languages remain an arcane mystery to me. I apologise for the fact that my keyboard does not lend itself to the fada. In the overprint above there is a fada over the "U" in

"Gcuimne" and a dot over the "M". There is a fada over the "E" in "Aiseirge" and a dot over the "G".

Kind regards - ag Canmoliaethau - Bryn


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 10:26 AM

"Rialtas Sealadach na h Eireann 1922"
Irish Provisional Government 1922. Note Rialta s

1941 I Gcuimne Aiseirge 1916
"In memory of the 1916 Rising"

Best Wishes


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 10:44 AM

Thank you, Guest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 01:55 PM

I have been and remain "into" Irish history and the "In Memory of the 1916 Rising" would be one hell of a fine thing to hold. That's a nice acquisition BP.

Now, if you could only find an old coin from the late 1500's or the 1600's with the harp on one side and the suffering face of Cromwell with a pike stuck up his ass on the other. Now, that would be some coin! No politics here, huh? Cheers,................mwh


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 06:34 PM

Coin from late 1500s not very likely as Oliver Cromwell only born in 1599.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: GUEST,TheSameGuest
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 07:08 PM

Bryn pugh

I can remember having the 1920's overprints as a youngster - but don't recall the other example. Can you describe the stamp? It sounds more like a fist-day-of-issue cancellation to me?

Best Wishes


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: GUEST,The same guest... (for clarity)
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 07:23 PM

I recall the "Rialtas sealadach" overprints from my youth - but not the "I gcuimhne.." case for the 25th anniversary. Offhand, it sounds more like a first-day-of-issue cancellation than an overprint. Can you describe the stamp?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 11:45 PM

Gee, you got me! Cheerio,.......................mwh


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 02:28 AM

I recall the Rialtas sealadach overprint from my stamp-collecting days. I don't recall the 1941 (25th anniversary) example. Can you describe the stamp itself?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 02:45 AM

In fact there's a set for sale on eBay currently.
Click here


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:39 AM

Incidentally, note that there is no "fada" on the "u" of "cuimhne". (that h replaces the dot you mention on the m) Maybe you have a real rarity!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 05:04 AM

Dear Friends,

The stamps - there are two, one quite heavily cancelled, one much less so - are exactly like the ones currently on EBay, but in a bloody sight better nick (US - condition).

In my coin collection I have farthings of Georgies Two, Three and Four, with the crowned harp and "Hibernia" on the reverse.

Regards, Bryn


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:07 AM

I have now had the chance to examine the stamps under a high powered glass.

Guest - there is no fada over the "U" in "Gcuimne" - I mistook part of the cancelling stamp for a fada.

(Sotto voce - well, you DO feel a fool).

From the little I know of the Irish language, I believe the fada converts a short vowel sound to a long one. Are you able, please, to tell me the effect of a dot, which is over consonants ? Does the dot over a vowel have the same effect as the fada ?

Ag Canmoliaethau - Kind regards - Bryn


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:13 AM

The effect of the dot (eclipse) is to change the "sound" of the consonant - sometimes dramatically. In modern orthography the dot is replaced with a 'h'. In the case of g, the consonant effectively disappears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:22 AM

An féidir leat tuiscint a fháil ar seo? Aistriú liom é as Béarla go Gaeilge ag baint úsáide as Google. Ní féidir liom a léamh ar an nGaeilge ar chor ar bith. Ba mhaith liom fios a bheith agat cé chomh maith agus aistríonn Google.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:29 AM

Y mae drwg i mi. Nid yr wyf fi'n siarad Gwyddelwch. Byddwch'n gael yn y Saesneg, a os welwchi'n da ? Ddiolch yn fawr iawn. Cofio, Bryn


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:50 AM

As you can see, I've been experimenting with Google. The closest I can get is:

Rialtas Sealadach na hÉireann
Provisional Government of Ireland
        
I Gcuimhne ar Éirí Amach 1916
In Memory of the 1916 Rebellion

Google doesn't recognize "Aiseirge".

Bryn, Google was pretty confused by your Welsh. I only recently discovered Google Translate, and so far, I've been impressed with it. It not only translates better than Babelfish, but it has a wider range of languages.

I don't read or speak either Irish or Welsh. I only know a bit of French, and how to use computers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 10:40 AM

Hi Jim - I don't write Cymraeg very well.

What I wrote (or thought I had written !) was

Y mae drwg i mi - I am sorry.

Nid yr wyf fi ddim yn siarad Gwyddelwch - I do not speak Irish.

Bwddwch chin gael yn y Saesneg, a os welwch chi'n dda - Will you get in English, please.

Ddiloch yn fawr iawn - than you very much.

Cofio - "cheers", Bryn.

I can speak Cymraeg - reading and writing is a different caper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 10:52 AM

"Aiseirige" would now be written "Aiséirí" having at one stage been "Aiséirighe".


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:52 AM

BTW, Jim, that translation ain't half bad!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 12:30 PM

Bryn: Here's how Google translates your English into Welsh.

I am sorry. - Yr wyf yn ddrwg.
I do not speak Irish. - Nad ydw i'n siarad Gwyddeleg.
Will you get [it] in English, please. - A fyddwch chi'n ei gael yn Saesneg, os gwelwch yn dda. [Which translates back as: Will you be available in english, please.]
Thank you very much. - Thank you very much. (!?!?)

I have no idea why Google couldn't translate that last line.

Is the rest of it at least grammatical and reasonably accurate?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Declan
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 04:25 PM

Bryn,

The dot over a consonant softens the sound. In more modern Irish spelling it has been replaced by a 'h' after the letter. Also the spelling of Irish was standardised back around the 50's or 60s I think. So in standardised spelling the word is spelled ais-eirí, which may be why google failed to translate it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 07:58 AM

Jim - I think what Google is doing here is putting Saesneg (Bearla ; English) into the South Walian dialect, which is to Welsh as RP (or BBC English, also Oxford English) is to spoken English.

I speak the North Walian dialect of the pur a hen iaith Cymraeg, which is as different from the South Walian as chalk is to cheese. Indeed, when I am in South Wales I prefer to speak English, because "they" don't understand my

Cymraeg, and I don't understand "theirs".

Examples : SW "Milk" = LLaith

NW = LLefreth

NS "Now" = nawr

SW = rwan, which is a mirror image.

As in all spoken languages, there is the world of difference between the grammatical and the idiomatic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Language Query
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 06:29 PM

Jim Dixon, a few days ago wrote:

An féidir leat tuiscint a fháil ar seo? Aistriú liom é as Béarla go Gaeilge ag baint úsáide as Google. Ní féidir liom a léamh ar an nGaeilge ar chor ar bith. Ba mhaith liom fios a bheith agat cé chomh maith agus aistríonn Google.

Jim - that's not bad at all (at all) for a machine translation. It's not perfect but is quite understandable.

I posted a similar reply some days ago. It would be nice if the over-enthusiastic moderator who deleted that posting recognised that, though anonymous, the reply is helpful - and let it stand.


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Subject: RE: folklore: Irish Language Query
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 05:19 AM

Jim - further.

"Yr wyf fi yn ddrwg", to me, would be "I am bad", meaning "I am sick".

"Y mae drwg i mi", on the other hand is, in Saesnaeg "there is bad with me".

I have found, when using the Google Saesneg i Cymraeg, thst it pays little if any heed to the necessary consonant mutations characteristic of Cymraeg.

e.g "Cymraeg" Gymraeg" "Chymraeg" ; NGhymraeg".

"Plaid" ; "Phlaid" "Blaid" Mhlaid" ;

"Teulu" ; Deulu".


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Subject: RE: folklore: Irish Language Query
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 06:19 AM

To Mod: an elegant and sufficient solution.
Thank you.
    Yeah, but it would still be better if you used a name when posting.
    -Joe Offer-


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