Lyr Add: England My England

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:30 PM

How the heck can you say that Churchill is NOT part of England?

Where did I say that Churchill was not part of England, Lizzie? Just reading into my words what you want to see, much like the tabloids you quote do with thier news stories.

Look back, read again and try to comprehend what I am actualy saying. If not at least quote me verbatim rather than quoting your own interpretation. I think you will find what I actualy said distincly different to your slant on it.

But before we get hung up on the niceties let's remember the point of the thread. It was asking for information on the song. It has long since been established that it was written and distributed by persons of dubious intent. Apart from which it is a particularly bad example of teh songsmoths talent!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM

The Daily Mail is a bad and evil thing.

"Also, our colonial influence was not all bad. "

True but in getting to some kind of understanding do you see it is about 50/50?

Going to other places, taking over countries and shipping lots of stuff back. And we didn't even leave them Morris dancing - we left them Cricket.

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:27 PM

yet I am a racist xenophobe facist.>>>

yet I am a racist xenophobe facist??????

Left the ??? out there...


Also, let's deal with the Spitfires memory of mine, shall we?

When I worked in Harley St. as I've said before, Douglas Bader was a patient of the Cardiologist I worked for. He was an incredible man, one to whom we owe a huge debt. Dr. Spurrell, his Cardiologist, had modelled his life on Bader's courage, after having seen 'Reach for the Sky' at the cinema when he was a young boy.

He grew up to fly Spitfires. Ended up buying one with some pals of his and they spent many happy hours stripping it all down and re-bulding it.

So yes, I'm afraid that Spitfires also are in my memory bank..and of course, my dear Dad was an RAF Navigator too.

In short, don't tell me what I can and can't think about my country or the memories that flow through every part of me.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:20 PM

"Where evil has been done, decent Britons have changed it, e.g. slavery, colonial exploitation. Also, our colonial influence was not all bad.
As I said, tyranny and intolerance has been overcome here, and without needing invaders to come and sort things out for us."

Excellently put, Keith and I couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:18 PM

"When you were rhapsodising over village greens, cricket and spitfires, I told you that this chocolate box vision was somewhat undermined by the realities of the past: rural poverty, enclosure, childhood disease and death, and the many iniquities of the class system.... "<<<<<<

No, you told me that my words about England, which were in fact my actual memories too, did not exist, expect on biscuit tins. I have since assured you, many times over, that they actually EXISTED and still do, in many parts of this country. Just a few weeks ago in Torquay they were all out playing cricket on the green there, with the church spire in the background and the sea to the front.

It exists. It has always existed. It is PART of English culture, both past and present....and future.


What you **actually** said was this.....and I have taken this from a PM you sent me a while back:

"...What I actually said, after a long, misty-eyed bout of whimsy from you about spitfires and cricket and church bells and village greens, was (and this was a thought that has since been echoed by many of your countrymen) the England you were trying to conjure up was a sentimental image that ony existed on biscuit tins and Hovis adverts, and it did not take into account the real, multicultural society that we live in...."


"...You responded (and this is the important bit) that I would have to have "England running through every part of me" to be able truly understand your vision. The implication being that, as I was not born here, I could never properly understand or appreciate England in the way that you could...."

You took that to imply what you wanted it to. And I told you that if I had gone to live in America, then I would still never know that country as well as you, still never have the memories you have because you have half a lifetime's more memories of America than I do and always will.

I would never dream of telling anyone that their actual memories did not exist, apart from on biscuit tins. (!!)

I have SAT on village greens, heard the sound of leather against willow..whilst the bells rang out the hours...and it is a vision I love.

I have never seen the Notting Hill Carnival, apart from on the news, because I have never lived in Notting Hill. It looks great fun in some parts and a bit dodgy in others when things get a little out of hand. I have seen the Glastonbury/Bridgwater Carnival of Lights, though, because I used to live down the road..but that ain't on Albion Heart either.   And things can get out of hand in Glastonbury too sometimes.



"And the fact is that the real, living breathing England of 2009 has, for the majority of people, regardless of culture or origin, a lot more to do with urban culture and diversity than the treacly, whimsical nonsense you were espousing at the time. You would not accept this."

I still don't accept it. England is not 'urban culture'...it is a huge variety of cities, towns, villages, countryside, beaches, coastline, lakes...Urban culture is not and never has been a part of my life, because I have never lived in a city. And that is a hanging offence????????? I identify far more with cows, sheep and tors, than I do with urban culture and clubbing....Yeesh!



"You also went on to launch one of your nasty, hysterical attacks on my culture."

In what way? Was it baseball caps? Gawd...I hate baseball caps, always have done, always will do. Terrible invention! I also dislike Corporate America, but then I loathe Corporate Britain too.

I seem to recall saying that if I had launched the 'America No Thanks' campaign, instead of Ian Anderson, then I'd have been called a racist, but because Ian did it, it was seemingly OK.


"That's whay I called you a racist."

Then you were wrong, weren't you.   


"I think the things you said at that time were at the very least xenophobic, at worst racist. I find the Daily Mail, red-top politics you continue to espouse deplorable. I didn't apologise then and I don't now. "

I would not accept your apology, after reading what you put about me on Facebook, so that truly is of no importance to me.


As I recall you inferred my father was a facist, simply because he used to read the Daily Mail. Whoa!!! The fact that Dad went to war er...AGAINST facists obviously completely went over your head then?????

I'm puzzled about the Daily Mail Leftie Hysteria, it has always puzzled me. It's the top selling paper in the country, it launches blistering attacks on the BNP, it often has very intelligent pieces in it which are anything but racist....so that must mean that most people in this country are er...racist then?

Of course it bloomin' doesn't.

The Daily Mail phobia within the Left is bizarre. I've always found it bizarre and always will. I'm not an Extremist of Left or Right, I support no particular party, because let's face it, they're all crappily corrupted....but I love my country and I have true and beautiful memories of it, some of which come only from yesterday, not purely decades ago.

I find The Sun far more worrying, and The Mirror, with their dumbed down words and nude women plastered everywhere, coarseness and vulgarity on almost every page.

What is it with Newspaperism in the folk world in England. WHY do you judge people on the papers they read? It's so weird!

I don't care about the colour of anyone's skin, nor their religion or background. I don't see people as 'class' but as people, pure and simple...yet I am a racist xenophobe facist.   

Cool, huh?

I do judge people though, but only on their souls....

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:03 PM

Where evil has been done, decent Britons have changed it, e.g. slavery, colonial exploitation. Also, our colonial influence was not all bad.
As I said, tyranny and intolerance has been overcome here, and without needing invaders to come and sort things out for us.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:58 AM

Well Lizzie,

as I have failed to explain I don't really know what being proud of England is. I guess that's my problem.

Looking back on what English people have done, ie culture in it's widest sense, some of looks good, some bad and some just history.

If you are proud of some stuff and ashamed (?) of other stuff what does that add up to? No? I don't know either.

I have sung old songs, danced Morris, been in mummers plays, ran clubs and groups and all that other stuff and enjoyed it. So people did it a long time ago - just like all the bad stuff.

Are you cherry picking the bits you like and simply avoiding all the bits you don't? Ok fine but that is why we keep going on.

And more importantly Suibhne O'Piobaireachd

Brilliant as ever

Les

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:37 AM

Geez, why are you so stuck in only the bad part of our history, Les?

What of the good things about England? Or do you deliberately choose not to go there?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:37 AM

Once we all lived in Africa then we spread out and have been doing so for around 200,000 years. Hardly a place on the planet does not have people from other places. The idea of people in one place going back to the bronze isn't much true.

Is Italy a country and a nation? Lots of people in the north are keen to cut themselves off from the people in the south. Could it be because they have a lot more wealth?

I will ask the question again:

"England or Britain" or some such thing, like many European countries went off around the globe taking over places and removing much wealth. This was bad and many of those places are still suffering from the consequences.

None of us a responsible for any of this and although we sill benefit from the advantage gained the original sin was not mine or our generation's.

So proud (?) of some things and not others?

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:03 AM

"England or Britain" or some such thing, like many European countries went off around the globe taking over places and removing much wealth. This was bad and many of those places are still suffering from the consequences.

None of us a responsible for any of this and although we sill benefit from the advantage gained the original sin was not mine or our generation's.

So proud (?) of some things and not others?

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:02 AM

Mr.Happy, "IMO nationality & countries are contrivances invented by the rich & powerful to further control & keep us under their thumb "

Surely nations grew out of tribal groupings that date back at least to the bronze age. Someone has already mentioned the Land Of The Angles.
You said you enjoy the Behan song, and posted all the lyrics.
You forgot to tell us what you enjoy about it, and how it is relevant here.

While I have your attention, may I remind you that you said on this forum that you had proof that I am a liar and a racist.
Will you now post that proof on this forum, or withdraw that gross personal attack?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:52 AM

"The real England is not that of Willberforce or Churchill or any politician. It is that of Ranjid that runs the corner shop, Fred who buys his sandwich there on the way to work, Natasha who bakes the bread and Ingrid who drives the bus. It does not matter one jot whether they like cricket, morris dancing, steel bands or curry on their roast beef."


Actually, it's ALL of those things, Dave. You cannot deny the past and both Winston Churchill and William Wilberforce are both a huge part of that.


How the heck can you say that Churchill is NOT part of England?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:50 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqoTNVwhrAg

O'er grassy dale, and lowland scene
Come see, come hear, the English Scheme.
The lower-class, want brass, bad chests, scrounge fags.
The clever ones tend to emigrate
Like your psychotic big brother, who left home
For jobs in Holland, Munich, Rome
He's thick but he struck it rich, switch
The commune crap, camp bop, middle-class, flip-flop
Guess that's why they end up in bands
He's the green piece in us all
He's the creep-creep in us all
Condescends to black men
Very nice to them
They talk of Chile while driving through Haslingden
You got sixty hour weeks, and stone stone toilet back-gardens
Peter Cook's jokes, bad dope, check shirts, lousy groups
Point their fingers at America
Down pokey quaint streets in Cambridge
Cycles our distant spastic heritage
Its a gay red, roundhead, army career, grim head
If we was smart we'd emigrate

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:43 AM

So much evidence here that reinforces the concept of non-nationality.


Like, which version of England are we to discuss?

.........& for that matter, which variations of 'Britishness', Irish, Scot, Welsh?

IMO nationality & countries are contrivances invented by the rich & powerful to further control & keep us under their thumb

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:34 AM

dave, Dave write the song! It will be exlnt

Les

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:19 AM

The Far Left despise the Royals

I am far from far left and I do as well. The 'Royals' epiomise the class system that caused the slavery of the ordinary working person in the first place. Joe Stalin and co. proved that you cannot replace one class system with another either. Until people understand that the real enemies are the ones who wield the real power nothing will ever change. They feed us the fuel for these petty squables through their media in the hope that we will not notice the real injustice and carry on laughing all the way to the bank.

The real England is not that of Willberforce or Churchill or any politician. It is that of Ranjid that runs the corner shop, Fred who buys his sandwich there on the way to work, Natasha who bakes the bread and Ingrid who drives the bus. It does not matter one jot whether they like cricket, morris dancing, steel bands or curry on their roast beef.

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:02 AM

Well, I think that had to be said or said again and it is well said too

Thanks Ruth
L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:52 AM

"I was called 'a nasty little racist' way back. You know why? Because I dared to tell someone who'd not lived even half the years I have in this country that possibly I understood a little more what it was like to be English. that perhaps you had to have England flowing through you to be able to understand where we came from, how life used to be.

This was after I'd been told that my true and crystal clear memories of cricket played upon an English village lawn, in the shadow of the church spire, was a chocolate box vision that had never existed."

Actually, Lizzie, I have lived half my life in England, and half in America.

When you were rhapsodising over village greens, cricket and spitfires, I told you that this chocolate box vision was somewhat undermined by the realities of the past: rural poverty, enclosure, childhood disease and death, and the many iniquities of the class system. It is also undermined by the present, because (as I told you then) I do live in a rural village and I know that - for SOME people - this is a part of their lives. There are far more people in contemporary Britain, however, for whom your chocolate-box vision is a complete irrelevance. I also remember saying that your whimsical catalogue of England and everything about it that you loved did not seem to include things like Notting Hill Carnival, Mela, or any brown people.

You then told me I could not understand this vision of England because I did not have England "running through every part of me" - in other words, my blood was not English enough to ever truly understand this country. You did not disagree with this. Well, if that's true of me presumably it's true of every other person who lives in England but was not born here. So, in your Englands, we will always be outsiders. And the fact is that the real, living breathing England of 2009 has, for the majority of people, regardless of culture or origin, a lot more to do with urban culture and diversity than the treacly, whimsical nonsense you were espousing at the time. You would not accept this. You also went on to launch one of your nasty, hysterical attacks on my culture. That's whay I called you a racist. I think the things you said at that time were at the very least xenophobic, at worst racist. I find the Daily Mail, red-top politics you continue to espouse deplorable. I didn't apologise then and I don't now.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:29 AM

Here's a song about England I enjoy!



THE CAPTAINS AND THE KINGS

Brendan Behan

I remember in September, when the final stumps were drawn,
And the shouts of crowds now silent when the boys to tea had gone.
Let us, oh Lord above us, remember simple things,
When all are dead who love us, Oh the Captains and the Kings,
When all are dead who love us, Oh the Captains and the Kings.

We have many goods for export, Christian ethics and old port
But our greatest boast is that the Anglo-Saxon is a sport
When the darts game they are finished, & the boys their game of rings
And the drafts and chess relinquished Oh the captains and the kings
And the drafts and chess relinquished Oh the captains and the kings

Far away in dear old Cyprus, or in Kenya's dusty land,
We bear the white man's burden in many a strange land.
As we look across our shoulder, in West Belfast the school bell rings,
And we sigh for dear old England, and the Captains and the Kings.
And we sigh for dear old England, and the Captains and the Kings.

In our dreams we see old Harrow, and we hear the crow's load caw
At the flower show our big marrow takes the prize from Evelyn Waugh
Cups of tea and some dry Sherry, vintage cars, these simple things
So let`s drink up and be merry, for the captains and the kings
So let`s drink up and be merry, for the captains and the kings

As I wandered in a nightmare all around Great Windsor Park,
Now what did you think I found there as I wandered in the dark?
It was an apple half-bitten, and sweetest of all things,
Five baby teeth had written of the Captains and the Kings.
Five baby teeth had written of the Captains and the Kings.

By the moon that shines above us in the misty morning light
Let us cease to run ourselves down and praise God that we are white
And better still are English, tea and toast and muffin rings
And old ladies with stern faces and the captains and the kings
And old ladies with stern faces and the captains and the kings

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:27 AM

I love being English and for all that is flawed about this culture, I identify with lots of it: a great language full of really interesting words, gorgeous woodland - currently at it's most attractive (arguably), an ongoing tradition of great quirky comedy, oodles of fabulous literature to dive into, those stodgy winter puddings, apple orchards and scrumpy, Kurryoke on a Saterday night down the Rose & Crown* and on it goes... None of it's "mine" in the sense of *owning* it personally that's why no-one can take it away, but it is "mine" in the sense that I (and of course all of us) have free access to it all at anytime it's wanted. The only think that really stinks about England is the poxy nationalists who keep jumping up and down about people stealing "their" England from them. Well wake-up call, none of that stuff I cited went *anywhere*, no Eurocrat or meany Lefty or immigrant spirited it away, it's all just sitting there quite unmolested all Englishy and nice ready to be appreciated and enjoyed. All it takes is putting on a pair of walking boots, or having a sense of humour, or having learned your ABC to get out there into England and 'reclaim' all that Englishy Englishness right back again.. Simples.


*I must confess I've not yet been to the 'Kurryoke', but I'm tempted..

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:07 AM

"England or Britain" or some such thing, like many European countries went off around the globe taking over places and removing much wealth. This was bad and many of those places are still suffering from the consequences.

None of us a responsible for any of this and although we sill benefit from the advantage gained the original sin was not mine or our generation's.

So proud (?) of some things and not others?

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:04 AM

"Who is the "we"? Does it include English people of all cultural and ethnic origins?"

I would most certainly hope so.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:56 AM

No Dave...certain parts of this have ALSO been hijacked by the Extreme Left. Both sides have their agendas and both sides are wrong.

The Left has given the Right power to take many of those in the middle forward, down the wrong path, because of their continuous suppression of so many things that England stands for.

You cannot tell a nation that they mustn't look back! Geez, half the world would roll over for our incredible history!

If you don't look back, then you can't look forward, because you do not know where you've come from, where you are now or where you are going to.

Christianity has been almost wiped out.
The Royal family likewise..

And whether you agree or disagree about either, they are both a huge part of our nation's history.

The Far Left despise the Royals, so....they had to go...all mention of them too, and anyone who DARED to mention them would be called a middle class ***t, with racist and classist overtones..

I was called 'a nasty little racist' way back. You know why? Because I dared to tell someone who'd not lived even half the years I have in this country that possibly I understood a little more what it was like to be English. that perhaps you had to have England flowing through you to be able to understand where we came from, how life used to be.

This was after I'd been told that my true and crystal clear memories of cricket played upon an English village lawn, in the shadow of the church spire, was a chocolate box vision that had never existed.

I explained to the American personn concerned that had I arrived on the shores of America and spent 10/15 years of my life there, I'd not have the same memories as someone who had lived there for over 50years..and that this person, being American and having lived the majority of their life over there, would, in my eyes, be far more American than I would ever hope to be. Yes, I would probably be an American citizen by then, but no way would I have that same sense of the past of that country, because I had lived all those years somewhere else...

That isn't racist. It's fact.

Don't come over here then start telling me how my country used to be decades back, because you weren't there. I was. I remember the communities, the kindness, the gentleness that was so often a part of England. It hasn't always been 'this way'...and no amount of screeching that it has will make that true. I've lived here all my 54 years..and I was raised by parents who were a generation apart..my father being so much older...and I have many of his values, I realise that...

My Dad epitomosed what 'being English' means, to me. It's good manners, tolerance, a sense of honesty and integrity. It's standing up for those who cannot stand up for themselves. It's about fair play and decency. We were known, and admired, for so many of these things around the world...and now we are despised. And part of that reason has been that we have let those with other agendas almost force us to despise ourselves. We have had nothing but the badness poured down on us, to the point where our young people can't believe that they come from a country that was once looked up to around the world.

We have let Hollywood turn us into the bad guys, but what is far worse is that we have turned OURSELVES into the Bad Guys, because we constantly bleat on about how terrible we've been, what we've done, how we deserve this or that to happen to us now...

Well sod that.

ALL countries have shitty parts to their history. And that is exactly what it is, history.

Speak to me of slavery, yes...but balance it out with also speaking to me of William Wilberforce...Speak to me of the Empire, but also balance it with the GOOD things the Empire did. Speak to me of the Royal Family, but don't wipe out the entire history, the amazing history that surrounds them..

There is a deeply neurotic faction in this country who love nothing more than to label anyone and everyone as a racist or a facist, if they feel threatened by those who dare to disagree with them. They use those words because they are the new ways to intimidate, isolate and suppress..the new 'you're a Commie!'...to which mud normally sticks.

Of course, they refuse to see their behaviour is as divisive and wrong as that of the Far Right, who also seek to drive out those they do not consider to be of their 'tribe'

I'm not frightened to talk about England, my love of England, my pride in being English. I'm not frightened about the abuse that comes my way...but many are, and so they keep quiet and fester silently....and then, along come the BNP who talk about much of what these people are feeling..and voila, into their arms they fly....



By trying to suppress the English from feeling English, 'they' have let in the Facists...The Extreme Left has done so much of it themselves..

You couldn't make it up, you really couldn't...

Yeesh!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Green Man
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:51 AM

If a man is standing in a forest in England
and there aren't any women in earshot
and he says something

Is he STILL wrong?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST,Spleen. Final contribution. Gotta go to work
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:47 AM

Fly the flag of Saint George or the Union Jack
Let the world know - WE WANT OUR ENGLAND BACK

Who is the "we"? Does it include English people of all cultural and ethnic origins?

Who do "we" want "our England back" from? Who is accused of stealing it from "us"? Where have "they" hidden it? What are "they" doing to it? Does it involve invasive procedures? What do "they" look like?

What exactly is it that "we" want back? England circa 1979? 1947? 1912? 1750? Do "we" just want the "good" bits? Or will "we" also accept child labour, no votes for women or workers, slavery, rural poverty, enclosure and so on? Do we want the mythical "Merrie England" beloved of Victorian fantasists? "We" never had that in the first place!

This inane ditty raises far more questions than it answers. Some of the questions have worrying implications.

Exploring these issues is not an attack on Englishness but is part of the debate on what Englishness in the 21st century really means.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:45 AM

I agree with all that Keith, well said but, (sorry sucking eggs I know) "England or Britain" or some such thing, like many European countries went off around the globe taking over places and removing much wealth. This was bad and many of those places are still suffering from the consequences.

None of us a responsible for any of this and although we sill benefit from the advantage gained the original sin was not mine or our generation's.

So proud (?) of some things and not others?

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:33 AM

A country as it is now is a function of its past.
The struggle against tyranny and intolerance has been more successful here than in many countries.
That makes us a destination of choice for millions of migrants and potential migrants. We can be proud of that.
There were many martyrs in those struggles.
Many knew that only future Britons would benefit from their sacrifices.
We can be proud of that.
In 1940 this country stood alone against the fascist axis, and against the odds, prevailed. That was my parents' generation. I feel proud of them.
My grandparents' generation made huge sacrifices to prevent the Kaiser's miltarist and fascist regime conquering Europe. I feel pride for them too.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST,Spleen again
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:33 AM

QUOTE: "Of course, it's OK for the Welsh, the Scots, or the Irish...but nope, not for the English"...

Who here is saying that? This is what I mean by paranoia.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:32 AM

Lizzie:

See, "here we go again....being told that having pride in our country is a bad thing"

No, no really. I just don't know which bit you are proud of and how you choose that and reject the rest and still call it "England"
L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:29 AM

Exlnt Dave.

Something I have noticed over a thousand years of running or being involved in folkie events is that the Press almost always get something wrong. The venue, the date, the cost, the people all these and more are endlessly given out in error.

I would say to anybody who quotes the "Popular Press" they get it wrong in simple incontinences things so don't trust them, and please don't quote them, when they write about anything a bit complicated especially where a degree of sensitivity is needed.

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:28 AM

English cultural identity (Folk music, morris dancing, St Georges Day etc)

Who wants a cultural ID founded on bogus volkish revivalism? Give me real, living, thriving, English culture - the sort of stuff that millions of English people are living day-in day-out which most certainly does NOT involve Folk Music, Morris Dancing, St Georges Day etc.. Such things are but the hobbyist concern of a tiny middle-class minority whose concerns are, I fear, somewhat misplaced with respect of the realities of cultural and, more importantly, individual identity in the UK today.

Enjoy it by all means, but the more you bang this shit as being our common heritage the more the nationalists are going to believe you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHF8SgmLXSc

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:24 AM

See, here we go again....being told that having pride in our country is a bad thing.

Of course, it's OK for the Welsh, the Scots, or the Irish...but nope, not for the English.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:19 AM

I posted what I was proud of about England itself earlier, Les. Multi-culturalism and, in the main, tollerance, was the gist of it. I also said there is no way that anyone can be proud of being born in England - It was not their choice. One can only be genuinely proud of one's own achievements - not accidents of birth. I was going to comment on the links posted as well but Mr cringe has done it far more eloquently.

Lizzie - you are quite right of course. None of the things you mention are racist. The trouble is certain parts have been hijacked by the far right and perpetuating the myths put about by the rags does nothing but help their cause I'm afraid. It is always worth checking out facts before quoting the headlines.

Cheers

DeF

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:07 AM

A well argued case Mr Cringe, well done.

I will now break one of my own bits of guidance - that people should read earlier post before they join and endlessly repeat what others have said - I feel sure you will let me know if I am doing so.

I genuinely don't understand what "being proud of England" or even "England my England" really means.

Quite a few things have happened in England in the last few thousand years and people alive know have nothing to do with, or are in any way responsible for, most of those things.

I guess most of us feel at one with those who opposed slavery and against those who favoured it. History is full of such stuff. I am not sure how pride fits into this.

Biology is what people are and culture is what they do. People in England have done lots of things so we have lots and lots of culture.

In the context of this site and folky stuff we enjoy old sings, tunes, dances and so on. They are very tiny part of our culture. As was The Compleat Dancing Master, Sonets, Music Hall, Black Face Minstrelsy, Bear Baiting, Witch Burning and general religious intolerance.

So, which bit of all this are we proud of? Pick a bit you like. But proud? Proud of it all - probably not. So what does it mean to be proud of England or English Culture?

I know what I like and I will try to give other people a chance to see and hear it.

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:41 AM

Ok, so we have an official from ONE council (Peterborough) in 2004 who cited "national legislation" - in fact planning laws on advertising - to ban flag flying except from a flag pole (note - all flags, not just St George's flags). Quite rightly the council then backed down, which brings them in line with the many other councils who turn a blind eye to such minor breaches of planning law. To suggest the St George's flag has been in some way singled out is more of a reflection of the willful paranoia of a narrow strata of the English population and the readiness of the media to seize on a "good" story than anything else. Of course, it will then be repeated and repeated and become part of the fakelore trotted out by those who wish to have us believe English culture is under seige.

This is from the House of Commons website:

"Individuals and organizations may fly the Union Flag whenever they wish, subject to local planning requirements. These have been relaxed recently. The DCMS Flags Protocol website advises as follows:

Under Schedule 1 Class H of the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007, national flags, the flags of the Commonwealth, European Union, the United Nations, English counties and certain saints can be flown without the express consent of local authorities as long as they satisfy the standard conditions for the display of advertisements generally and the conditions and limitations set out within Class H itself.
For saints' flags, the conditions are that they can only be flown in the county with which the saint is associated. This means that the St. Piran's flag may be flown freely in Cornwall, but express consent would be required for it to be flown elsewhere in England.
If any of these flags are to be flown no further planning permission is needed for the flagpole, however it may be required if other flags are to be flown"

The Union Flag and Flags of the United Kingdom, House of Commons June 2008

As for the Sun story, I suspect we'd have to look at the report they cite for the truth. Oh look, here it is: Childhood Wellbeing. And on page 65 of a 76 page report there are a couple of paragraphs on this issue - the very ones the Sun chose to highlight (interestingly they didn't highlighted the "aggressive defensiveness evident in many of the discussions" some of the parents interviewed displayed around race and immigration). It should also be pointed out that this was a small study, interviewing 9 groups of around 20 parents to elicit their perceptions. They were not expected to evidence their beliefs and assumptions (and of course, neither should they be in a study that is essentially designed to get people to share their attitudes and perceptions).

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:31 AM

prosecution - BBC site


National Flag ban lifted - 2006 BBC site

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:28 AM

Teachers and the flag

Peterborough Council and flags - BBC site

Prosecution
"We have rules and regulations that are set down by government and are in legislation and we have to abide to them and we can't ignore them."

"Laws are in place and Peterborough has been known to prosecute people for hanging out flags in the World Cup season or European Cup season and we have to uphold this, there has to be a level playing field." explained Cllr Murphy.

The laws where councils could prosecute have now been removed, it would seem.

Bloody good job too.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:19 AM

On his Myspace "Gez" (cited above) says he wrote his flag song as a result of "the authorities" banning the flying of the English flag on St George's day. I would challenge him (or anyone else for that matter) to come up with one single genuine example of this happening.

Modern English identity seems largely to be based on an irrational paranoia about mysterious others who are out to piss on English fireworks. It doesn't have to be...

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:33 AM

"A sad consequence is that anything seen as trying to promote an English cultural identity (Folk music, morris dancing, St Georges Day etc) is seen as probably racism motivated."

I don't see it as that....Why would I think that singing, dancing, or celebrating St. George's Day is racist??????

You see, this is the part I don't understand...the part that makes no sense whatsoever.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:59 PM

There are several points worth separating and developing in this thread. Can't do much on it now as I've just got back from the Folk Club (and discussion afterwards) 5 pints worse for wear.

The problem seems to be that everyone's allowed to have a cultural identity apart from the English. There are Left, Right and Middle of the political road justifications for this. Because the Left, Centre and mainstream Right go along worth this (for their own reasons), it's left a vacuum for the Racist Right* to fill.

A sad consequence is that anything seen as trying to promote an English cultural identity (Folk music, morris dancing, St Georges Day etc) is seen as probably racism motivated.

*very important to differentiate between the Racist Right and the Economic Right. The real Fascists are the Econimic Right. To call the Racist Right "Fascist" is politiclly stupid. The Economic Right would have no problem fielding a Junta of Black Lesbians to front a real Fascist state.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:49 PM

Angle Land - England
                   Where did the Angles come from?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:21 PM

I like that... :0)

Not sure the Cornish would though.. ;0)

Subject: RE: England My England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:08 PM

What about the Cornish Flag?

They could incorporate it into the Union Flag,and put an end to "there ain't no Black in the Union Jack".

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:58 PM

'Song for Saint George' written by Gez (see link to his myspace page above)

It was this time last year when they told us to hide
To hide our St. George Flag away
"Take them down from your windows, they litter our streets
If you don't, they'll be much hell to pay
And we'll fine you if you choose to, so it's best you choose not
It's worse than the Union Jack
For St. George is dead and buried
We suggest you sit down, shut up, and please don't answer back

Just sit down
Just sit down
Just sit down
No, don't stand your ground"

On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my street
Find its Bank Holiday with her parties so sweet
Send my love to my country, be proud of this place
See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face
But I fear Monday morn' we'll regret we were born
In this country of green promised land
And we'll trudge off to work with no pride in our heart
And no love for our own countrymen
Oh the Irish - St. Patrick, The Welsh - David's Day
The Scottish - St. Andrew I'm told
Celebrated by all who arouse one and all
Old St. George has been left in the cold

Don't sit down!
Don't sit down!
Don't sit down!
Just stand your ground!

On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my town
Find its Bank Holiday with my neighbours around
Send my love to my country, be proud of this place
See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face
I know is I'm small, yet I try to stand tall
For my country on St. George's Day
Raise a glass to Old England my neighbours and friends
So they know that he's not gone away
I'll run with my flag in the cool winter spring
Through the fields and the streets of this land
You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England

You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England
You can take old St. George from my windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:50 PM

We're proud of our heritage and the Red, White and Blue

Fly the flag of Saint George or the Union Jack

Let the world know - WE WANT OUR ENGLAND BACK !!!! <<<<



Someone said, sniffily, above, that England's flag has no blue in it. Well yes, that's fairly obvious, as is what is being said there in those words I've quoted...that the English are proud of both *their* heritage and that of Great Britain too.

This thread...and no Villan, I am not flaming, just flaming mad...this thread sums up all that has given the BNP such power!


The instant, hysterical cries of 'Facist!' purely because someone has written some words about being fed up at not being able to celebrate their country. Oh fer goodness sake, you lot, grow UP!

This Extreme Left campaign to take England our of the English has failed miserably, causing a backlash they never envisaged...and that is to let the REAL facists *in* amongst people who are sick fed up of not being able to be proud of their country.

There is nothing wrong at all in looking back at England's past. Why the hell shouldn't we do that? We have the most amazing past, one that is so often the envy of the world. It's called....er....our HISTORY and it encompasses so much good, amongst the bad.

There are times when I feel a little like England you know, because the Extreme Left has splattered untruths about me to, it has put many people off being close to me, put them off daring to stand beside me and with me....so I know exactly how their campaigns work.

They are often filled with more hatred than the people they profess to hate so much, being just as determined to weed out those amongst them who they feel 'do not belong'.

I love this country, it is my country, the land of my birth. It is where I grew up and it is where, apart from a short weekend in Paris about 30 years back, I have spent every single waking day of my life.

It is the country my dear Dad and his pals went to war for. It is the country Douglas Bader and his pals put their lives on the line for. It is the country Mike Harding's Dad gave his life for.

It is the most beautiful country. It is a country where half the world seemingly wants to come and live. Why is that do you think?

It is a welcoming, arms outstretched, falling over sideways to be called anything but racist country, where folks are welcomed from around the globe, regardless of race, colour or background.

It is a country of cricket played on village greens, where ancient trees still grow amongst the country houses....where the bells ring out from the church spires...and ancient woodlands still exist alongside motorways and new towns.

But......

.....it is a country that has lost her way. She has had her religion lambasted by the Extreme Left, she has had her history covered over. Her people have been brainwashed into denying her at times...

'They' bleat on about St. George not even being English, when the whole bloody point of the tale of St. George and the Dragon is about Good defeating Evil....and as a child, I loved the thought that my country stood for Good.

I was raised by a man who loved England, who had England running through his veins...and that blood runs in mine too.

Loving England does NOT make you a racist or a facist....

I have been called both.
I am neither.

I don't give a flying English arrow who does or does not believe that, nor who spreads vile rumours about me to the contrary, because *I* know, and that is way good enough for me.

People have been frightened into NOT admitting that they love their country. There has been a campaign of intimidation about this whole sorry affair...and those who have carried it out should shake their heads in sorrow for what they've done.

Yes, we love curry over here. Yes, we love The Nottinghill Carnival.
Yes, we love many things from other countries, but yes, we also love ENGLAND and there is NOTHING wrong with that.

As I have said before...I have no problem if the cricket of today is played by rainbow coloured people, under church spires on village greens....

What I DO have a problem with is people telling me that this is a 'chocolate box fantasy' of England, because it is NOT. I watched those cricket matches, I was there at the time...and they are amongst my many thousands of memories of my country.

I am deeply proud of my country, but also deeply distressed at what has happened to so many of her young people, who are drinking themselves into obllivion, and yes, the Extreme Left will of course deny this is happening, as ever...but tell me, why is it costing the NHS a fortune, if it's not happening?

We have young people who know nothing of their history!   And what is worse, they don't care. They simply live for the next party, the next club night out, the next Posh Spice new frock. They have no sense of who they are...no 'roots'.......

And as someone once said...

"We've lost more than we'll ever know round the rocky shores of England"


To deny this country, because you are shit scared of the BNP aligning themselves with you, is ridiculous. Take the flag BACK, don't burn it or tell others not to be associated with it for Gawd's sake!

You make the flag of St. George stand for the very thing it has always stood for, Good Over Evil....and you take it BACK from the BNP and from the Extreme Left to, putting it back into the hands of the English people themselves, of all colours.

Love my country......or leave it, but do NOT tell me to deny it...and in my not denying my pride, do not call me a facist or a racist, because that way of thinking has done more damage, given more power to the BNP than the Extremists could ever have dreamt would happen.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:24 PM

Odd, given that this is a music thread, that nobody's mentioned the fact that you need a license to play music in England…punishment is £20,000 fine or 6 months in prison!!! But not in Scotland or Northern Ireland.
In Scunthorpe a publican got a license extension (drinking) for St Patricks Day but was refused it for St George's Day.
No doubt someone will correct this but I always understood that the term 'English' was coined to embrace what had become a multi-cutural society some time in the late Middle Ages.
But then again…

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 03:27 PM

Gez's myspace - 'Song for St. George'


England, my England.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 09:12 AM

Nothing wrong with being english (or any other nationality really.) What's rather more dubious is the idea we should all be running around like headless chickens because the terrible beaurocrats in brussels or the 'PC brigade' (hahahahaha) are attacking us. Last time I was in England, 'englishness' seemed rather safe to be honest, so long as it doesn't get hijacked by far right idiots I can't really see the danger to a rather fluid and undefinable national identity.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:15 AM

Sounds like this thread has got to the end of its purpose.
Thanks guys, some very inbteresting comments made and helpful as well.
Thanks for keeping it free of flaming.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 04:23 AM

Jim McLean has lived in England for over 40 years and is 71 so prescription charges are not a personal issue. Incidentally I don't remember when I was last at the doctor's (maybe I've got Alzeimers!)