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Lyr Add: England My England
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Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Mike Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:03 AM There is great deal to be proud of in England - at least North of the Watford Gap. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:16 AM Taking pride in the arbitrary rock that your parents chromosomes happened to be located on is nonsensical - it's a bizarre contortion of common use of the noun 'pride'. To feel pride in one's heritage is frankly weird: when you think about it, it's feeling good about yourself because of things that other people have done. Other people. Not you. It's like a sketch that Mitchell & Webb did, which took the piss out of the insistence of couch-potato football fans that "We" won the match 4-nil, that "We" scored a blinder of a goal... Generally speaking one takes pride in something that one has actually done. I can neither be proud nor ashamed to happen to have been born in England. The only example I can think of, when this kind of pride-in-the-collective would have any kind of sense would be if, say, you felt proud of some courageous foreign policy decision taken by a government you had voted for. (Or, probably more likely, felt shame at some bloody awful foreign policy taken by a government you had voted for.) |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:37 AM Matt, suppose you were born into a hypothetical land whose history was all noble and which had been a great force for good in the world. Would it not be natural to feel grateful to have been born into such a country. And would you not feel a little inherited pride that your parents, grandparents, and all your forbears had contributed to making your country such a good place? |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:51 AM Well I am very pleased that I happen to have been born in the UK at the time I was, rather than, say, Rwanda. There are plenty of activists, politicians, freethinkers who have fought for benefits that make my life as a UK resident a hell of a lot easier than for a citizen of North Korea. But I can't say "pride" is what I feel. There's just something a bit pompous and weird in that. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: theleveller Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM Yes, I'm certainly against the blind and destructive jingoism that 'pride' can imply and, indeed, generate. This doesn't, however, mean that there can't be an affection for and an attachment and affinity to Britain (I don't think of England, or any of the other parts of the British Isles, in isolation) – and to a particular area that, for whatever reason, has special associations. I think it's important to have a 'sense of place'. For me that place happens to be East Yorkshire, where I was born and where my family has lived for several generations, but I've also felt at home in other parts of the country where I've lived and there are other areas that I feel particularly drawn to. My England (Britain) is a personal thing, not a nationalistic sentiment. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM so many of you,with one or two notable exceptions, appear to be so uneasy,if not actually desperately ashamed,about the idea of "pride" in your English national identity Where is that Mr Rat? Who has said they are ashamed by the idea of pride? The impression I get is that everyone, with one or two notable exceptions, are proud of England for reasons other than it's 'glorious' past. I have stated over and over again I am proud of Englands record on accepting other cultures and the tolerance that is shown for other peoples and ideas. I am neither proud or ashamed of 'England' because it is a lump of rock and mud that has no choice and I am not particularly proud or ashamed to be born in England because I had no say over that. There is nothing to proud of the bigots and narrow minded people who promote the facile nonsense in the song but as I have no control over them and they do not represent my England I cannot say I am ashamed of them either. As to your 'if you don't like it leave the country' attitude. Well, I think it says far more about your leanings than I could but I shall let other people make up their own minds. DeG |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM I take the point of Matt and others who have expressed similar opinions on this thread; but can't help feeling there comes a sort of Hegelian tipping-point where such extreme rationality and denial of what is generally regarded as an instinctual and natural emotion can tip over into a sort of anti-humanistic negativity. Did you not feel pleased in your schooldays if the school 1st XI won a match against a rival team, for instance, even if you weren't playing yourself? Do you not identify with any outside entity [football team, say; or your old school or college] and wish them well? If your old college/university is on University Challenge, don't you hope they will win, even tho all those young people are all so much after your time? Really not? Goodness, how sad! |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:02 AM Good one Matt. Leave now before tha mad ones return L in C |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:04 AM I guess I'm only fixating on that word because it seems to be quite an unhealthy fixation for some other people. And I think it's frequently used utterly unquestionably by perfectly well-meaning people in a particularly fatuous way. You can bet that all the courageous people who made the good things about the UK good did not achieve what they achieved because they were sitting around feeling proud about their great-grandparents. They were too busy getting on with stuff - seeing what was wrong and making it right. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:08 AM But, Matt, I bet you they were PROUD of their grandparents as well. Why do you regard the two things [pride & getting·on·with·it] as incompatible? |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:12 AM Perhaps they were inspired by the achievements of their forbears, and to continue the work that they had begun. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:17 AM " but can't help feeling there comes a sort of Hegelian tipping-point where such extreme rationality and denial of what is generally regarded as an instinctual and natural emotion can tip over into a sort of anti-humanistic negativity. Did you not feel pleased in your schooldays if the school 1st XI won a match against a rival team, for instance, even if you weren't playing yourself? " Sure, yes, of course - but it's significant that all the things you mention are things that you have a living and breathing connection to. But you'd surely think it a bit strange if someone was cheering on their great-great-granddad's college team on University Challenge, right? For me, it gets really daft when it's extended to art, as if Shakespeare's plays and John Dowland's music were written by some national collective that I am part of. When actually they were the creative work of two clever men who put the hours in. If anything, I'm probably less narked by the jingoism of national pride than the, I dunno, credit-taking of it all. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:28 AM it doesn't strike me as any more likely that one would be inspired by forebears from one's own country as by one's contemporaries from elsewhere there's also an assumption here that one's forebears share the same nationality or indeed culture as oneself, which hasn't necessarily been the case for a lot of people in the UK I suppose I'm making the point that there are vast swathes of people who are wholly uninterested in sentimentalising nationhood, for whom it's an irrelevance. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:31 AM "as if Shakespeare's plays and John Dowland's music were written by some national collective that I am part of." They were part of, and contribute to the totality of, a sort of national atmosphere, a gestalt. If you really don't feel that, then I honestly think you are the loser, that your extreme over-rationality is robbing you of something vital and valuable. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:39 AM It is observed that children in an ethnic or cultural group that have no positive role models from their group tend to underachieve. Must it not work in reverse if you are fortunate enough to belong to a group with a great, progressive history of achievement. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:47 AM Well if you could actually tell me specifically what it was I was missing out on, then you might have a point. But to talk of a "national atmosphere" is way too nebulous. You may as well just say "I'm enjoying this more than you". And then it's "No you're not", "Yes I am" ad nauseam. I get goosebumps reading Shakespeare. I get goosebumps listening to Ali Farka Touré. The country they're from is peripheral. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:47 AM 'there's also an assumption here that one's forebears share the same nationality or indeed culture as oneself, which hasn't necessarily been the case for a lot of people in the UK' It indeed was not the case with me, as a matter of fact. But it is where I was born, brought up, educated, have breathed and had my being all my life - so that I have absorbed its atmosphere culturally, as it were. I don't see that the fact that my ancestors were elsewhere at the time Of Shax & Dowland [to adopt Matt's two useful examples] disqualifies me from feeling part of the ambiance that their achievements are also part of. I say again — it is possible to be too objective & rational ... to the exclusion of some valuable emotional experience. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: allanc Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:56 AM Pride in one's country! I'm finding this a bit of a strange thread. I agree that there is no place for chauvinism but I'm struggling to understand why an Englishman shouldn't have pride in his country as much as anyone else does. Isn't it natural for people to have pride in their country's beauty;in its culture both high and low; in the achievements of its people both past and present; in its architecture; sporting achievements etc? There is surely a difference between a natural love and pride for your country as opposed to a chauvinistic attitude where one believe's oneself somehow special and better than everyone else? |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:08 AM Matt, I suggest that you go into an Irish pub on St Patricks night and explain to the revellers that being Irish is nothing to be proud of. Similarly, on Burn's night, tell those celebrating that Burns' nationality was and is irrelevant. Get someone to film you and put it on YouTube. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:09 AM Who said anything about excluding anything? And what is this valuable emotional experience? When you're enjoying a Shakespeare play, what extra endorphins get tickled by reminding yourself of the banal coincidence between the author's place of residence and yours? I'm not missing out on anything; I read books from all over the place; I listen to music from all over the place; and I feel no impulse to mystify that. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:10 AM BTW, Matt: if I happened to know which college such a remote ancestor happened to have been at, then of course I'd rather they won U Chall than the one some other bugger's great-great-granddad was at. I happen to have had an uncle who was at Trinity Hall, Cambridge, before I was born. So, unless they happen to be playing my college or my wife's, of course I like to see them win. Why? - I hear you ask. Oh, don't be so bloody rational ! |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:14 AM "And what is this valuable emotional experience? When you're enjoying a Shakespeare play, what extra endorphins get tickled by reminding yourself of the banal coincidence between the author's place of residence and yours?" Good questions Matt. & here's another — why, I wonder, do I feel so sorry for you for asking them? |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:19 AM Steady on, I may have no truck with nationalism, but I don't let that get in the way of a piss-up on Burns Night or St Pat's.... |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:23 AM Ah, well: if your idea of a valuable emotional experience is a piss-up, I suppose it's better than nothing... |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 11:25 AM Nelson Mandela and I have distant relatives in common. Should I be proud to be related to him? Or should I simply feel lucky to be around at a time when such a person lived the life he did and offers such a ............. dunno really role model? Too feeble a statement ........ incredible example of humanity? L in C |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 09 Nov 09 - 12:42 PM I'm not sure Matt's point is as a result of ultra-rationalism. I get a mad shiver down my spine when listen to English singer Peter Bellamy. I also get it when I listen to American singer Dock Boggs or Indian sarod player Ajmad Ali Khan or Scottish singer Lizzie Higgins (or Anglo-Franco-Aussie prog behemoths, Gong!)... I love the writing of William Boyd and Graham Greene and many other English authors but equally Americans Harry Crews and TC Boyle. And so on. I don't get why shared nationality should give me an extra frisson that should be missing when it comes to art and music created by people from other countries. And I'm not sure what I'm missing by not having a differently calibrated, um, frisson generator. I wonder, Mark, if Englishness is simply a more tangible concept for you than it is for me? Maybe you also feel more shame at the parts of English culture and history you struggle with than I do, too? It's an interesting area - the psychology of nationhood, I suppose you could call it. I get that extra frisson if I read something or listen to something that's fantastic by someone I personally know, but that's not about abstract concepts of nationhood, its about the pleasure in enjoying from a friend's skill and creativity. Maybe some people feel that way about everyone within their national boundary? I dunno. The one area where I think I might understand what you are experiencing is in the landscape. When I am stomping up Scafell Pike or Kinder Scout or round Malham, I get a real sense of overwhelming and almost giddy exhilaration and wellbeing. I get this at some of the wilder coastal areas too. I don't get this, though, in English cities and towns, most of the flat bits, pretty chocolate-boxy bits or the boring bits in between. I fully accept that others do. I can't say it's confined to England either - I've had the same feeling in the Himalayas, the Western Ghats ands the Australian Grampians. But my point is, maybe the sensation is the same, and maybe we all attach to different things. I'm not sure I'd call the sensation pride, but I could imagine that for some people, national pride might not feel dissimilar. Doesn't do it for me though! |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: The Sandman Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM I have pride when I have done something well. I dont feel a national pride,nor do I wish to sing God save the Queen,I would rather sing God Save Oscar Wilde, at least he was witty. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:22 PM Perhaps "pride" is the wrong word for the feeling we are endeavouring to express. "Solidarity"; "association"; "sense of oneness" — perhaps something like one of these would be better. Those who feel it, however you choose to name and express it, will know what we mean. Those who don't — well, then, you don't. We're all different. & I hope it keeps fine for you... |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:24 PM Exlnt poit: "Solidarity"; "association"; "sense of oneness" but with people who dun gud not with a country? L in C |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:45 PM Well, with both, LinC — but with the feeling enhanced if the achiever happens also to share the nationality. I mean, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven are all greater composers than any Britain has provided and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. But there is an agreeable feeling nevertheless to the thought that when it comes to writers, we can equal (& I should say pretty well top) any of them. Why? Just a gut feeling, I suppose. But I can see no harm in it, at that; or feel it in any way the sort of unworthy sensation that several posters to this thread seem to think I should. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:58 PM Bach, Mozart, Beethoven are all greater composers than any Britain has provided Eh? Tallis, Byrd & Dowland for starters and that's not even getting past the renaissance. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:41 PM Nice try, Diane. Beautiful all. I too love renaissance music. But not in same league as 3 Teutons I mentioned — & if that's the period you are urging, I don't think your 3 will match Palestrina or Josquin des Près at that. This last bit a matter of individual taste, I will admit. My initial assertion not so, I fear. And whom, post-renaissance as implied in your rejoinder, do you urge? Purcell seems to me the sole possible candidate. Sullivan? Elgar? RVW? Britten? Considerable all — but in same league as Bach or Mozart? Come now — not like you to let chauvinism so carry you away! |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Date: 09 Nov 09 - 04:45 PM "but with the feeling enhanced if the achiever happens also to share the nationality" No, don't get that Is it true that many current European countries did not actually exist as political entities until relevantly recently? L in C |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Allan Connochie Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:16 PM "No don't get that" But for instance just about everyone in Scotland loves to see a great sporting achievement at the Olympics, but it is 'certainly for most people' extra special if it is a British achievement and doubly extra special if it is a Scot. Do you think English people enjoyed joining in with the achievement Germany had in winning a World Cup just as much as they enjoyed watching the English team win it? I don't get why other achievements should be any different from sporting achievements. People like to see their own people succeeding - whether it is their town, region, country or whatever. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:14 PM Absolutely, A.C. If you don't get it, L in C, as I said b4, then you don't. Can only, as have also remarked previously, speak for way my own [& Allan's & those of some others] reactions work. A gut thing, like I say... |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: theleveller Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:38 AM "Considerable all — but in same league as Bach or Mozart? " I didn't realise that it was a competition. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:08 AM These last few posts are particularly interesting, not least because they are polite and thoughtful. Good point about sports teams and our support for them. Great to see the international rainbow alliance of footballers in "English" teams doing so well in European football and bringing world class football to England. "I don't get why other achievements should be any different from sporting achievements" British teams? Are the Scots pleased when somebody else beats England? Yes, quite a lot are very pleased. I would keep clear of sporting analogies some events (Man U v Liverpool) can be very, very unpleasant. "People like to see their own people succeeding" This is at the nub of this issue. I think I want to enjoy anybody's success if I can and as DeG and others have pointed out most of us have relations from from many, many countries. Music, for one, is a cooperative event for the performers, most of the time. As for the audience, it either touches you or it doesn't. That's it really. If you have to consider the nationality of the performers or the origin of the music before you know if you like it I suggest that, in that situation, you are not being touched in the same way that many of us are. Best wishes L in C |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:13 AM The maintenance of decent critical standards doesn't necessarily imply 'competition' in any meaningful sense — or are you trying, Leveller [& is this why you adopted that name?] to bring us back to that dreary plateau where nothing is allowed to be considered 'superior' to anything else; so that the pulp-beat·em·up-thrillers of Hank Janson [let's say] are 'as good as' the plays of Shakespeare or the novels of George Eliot or Jane Austen or Trollope or Dickens or Balzac? That's one of the most stupidly irritating manifestations of a kind of relativist egalitarian PC fatuity, unworthy of a person of [what I take to be] your intelligence. Honestly, now, do you really think it unacceptable to say that some writers write better, or some composers compose better, or for that matter some cricketers bat better, than others? So that schools have to have nothing but mixed-ability sets [tho I can't recall hearing of one with a mixed-ability football team]. Because that's where idiotic statements like your last post are leading, mate. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:28 AM Heritage versus nostalgia eh? My childhood included singing "He who would valiant be" at school assemblies, then donning pads and hitting leather with willow, hazy afternoons on the pavillion blah blah blah. yes, but a hankering of what was is not a comfort for the now. Unless you retract into your head and pretend it is. And that way leads to other problems... I was told to be proud to be English, and I was also told to be proud to be British. Either way, becoming an adult and realising how and why our nation is historically rich is a bit of a wake up call. Proud? No, not really. But that's how it is and you cannot change history. Other countries have people waving flags and being nationalistic, but up until recently the English way was to be more understated. And that's how it should be. Quietly ruing the shame of our ancestors whilst getting on with life. Such pathetic propaganda as the original poem in this post does work unfortunately. Look at us all debating it! |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: allanc Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:35 AM "Scots supporting British teams" I'd say the vast majority of Scots support any English competitor in sport against a foreign opponent and likewise with club football teams when they are playing foreign opposition. The exceptions being the English national football and rugby teams. I have an English wife and it of course irritates her somewhat that I don't actively support England when they are playing but the reason for that is the local derby thing involved and the fact that in both rugby and football they are the oldest rivalries in the world and one of the most intense. Admittedly in modern times the English may have lost that intensity in regard to the football rivalry as the likes of Germany and Argentina became bigger fish to fry, but it still exists in Scotland. Asking a Scot to support England is akin to asking a Rangers fan to support Celtic or vice-versa. Most probably won't do it. I've seen people say to their English friends "oh yes I hope they win" in order not to offend them but then sit down with big cheesy smiles when the other team scores. So basically when you see these polls saying lots of Scots would support England I'd take them with a pinch of salt. What people say they would do and what they actively do can be different things. Of course in regard to this thread Sootland and England are completely seperate concepts in the football world. Scots tend to naturally enjoy Scottish victories and vice-versa for the English. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:41 AM People who write books or compose music are simply doing that. They generally do it to the best of their creative ability, but surely it's not like a sporting competition is it? Most of the football in the world is mixed ability football. Go down the parks of the world and you will see millions of people playing football for the joy of it. few egos, no pay, few baying violent supporters and they are often parents. So what? No I don't know either. As for the best music I can miss-quote Carl Sagan "I don't hear music or think about what people are and what they do with my guts i use my brain - my emotions" Keep calm L in C |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:48 AM Not that long ago, club football was mostly-locals in MEANINGFUL competition... Poem 98 of 230: REREGULATE One Premier world-eleven v. Another such company, Or wage-caps and say half each-club's squad From the local-junior pod? And, perhaps, heed the cricket-fan's call To convert to county-football..? From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book) Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll) (C) David Franks 2003 |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:49 AM How about some regulation to the effect that if WAV posts outside his little box it must be with original thoughts rather than this sort of relentless spamming complete with links to his life's work? If you've got something MEANINGFUL to add to the discussion, WAV, by all means add it, but don't use these threads as a further opportunity to promote your meaningless xenophobic fascistic drivel which only serves to demonstrate how little you understand the culture you're so desperately trying to become a part of. You won't do that by miring yourself in half-baked observations you made six years ago! Besides which - football is still mostly about locals engaging in meaningful (?) competition. As I've said elsewhere, check out your local leagues, get involved as a supporter, and remember: the first ever world cup was won by a miners' team fielded by West Auckland in 1910!
If you don't like his poetry, leave him alone. This self-righteous mob harassing WAV and others, is an embarrassment to Mudcat. I must note, however, that WAV has posted this same "poem" six times at Mudcat, and people are certainly justified in thinking this may be a bit much. Since I am of an age where people often accuse me of repeating myself, I cannot find it in myself to judge WAV too harshly on this. WAV may be just another prattling old man, not unlike myself. I see no reason to react quite so strongly to his prattling. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:03 AM Firstly, S., if you read the posts just above, you'll see that my poem IS relevant to the discussion. Secondly, "Fascist" derives from a dictatorial Italian party opposed to communism; I am pro-democracy and have repeatedly criticised capitalism; there is no racism or fascism in my above poem, nor the rest of my life's work. Thirdly, it is you, NOT I, who has mentioned, on mudcat, having FRIENDS who make racist jokes at the pub, and referred to a recorder, made in Japan, as an "Engrish frute". |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:14 AM WAV you have posted three "poems" one on the Remembrance Day thread that is xenophobic; one on the Divorce Fair thread that is Homophobic, and one on this thread that is bizarre and mildly xenophobic. Why? Stu sans cookie |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:28 AM Once again, WAV - I criticise your published work, and you retaliate with irrelevant personal sniping. Suggest you modify your approach somewhat. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Folk Form # 1 Date: 10 Nov 09 - 08:51 AM The English, The English, The English are best, I wouldn't give tu'pence for all the rest. - Flanders and Swann Not my sentiments, by the way. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: alanabit Date: 10 Nov 09 - 11:46 AM I am very surprised to see this thread is still running. I wonder how many posts a good poem would have attracted? |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 10 Nov 09 - 12:12 PM I don't get the back and forth about: 'why are you proud?' V's 'why are not not proud?' - my feeling is 'why should I care if you're proud or not?' and 'why would you care if I am proud or I am not?'. There's no right or wrong in the matter, it's an emotional response based on triggers which either connect for you or don't. I agree with MattM, I'm sure those inspiring ancestors we might genuinely harbour respect for, were not wasting their time wallowing in how brilliant it/other people used to be, but were getting on with the job of sorting out stuff they thought needed sorting out *here and now*.. Like maybe writing plays, or preserving rare Buzzards or discovering brilliant science stuff, or something. Probably all of it in fact, which is no doubt why they don't post here.. ;-) Most unfortunately, I think that the "contribution" the vast bulk of nationalists who bray so loudly about Eng-er-land-ah and the foreigners and commies who magically stole it away somehow, is in fact to add a Minus Point to the collective value of this country's worthier historic and cultural achievements. Otherwise yes to Diane: Byrd et al over Mozart et al for me too, ta. |
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Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Date: 10 Nov 09 - 12:56 PM The fact that I think we must have said everything their is to say, many times, sometimes with grace and sometimes without should not stop anybody keeping on keeping on L in C 300? or too late |
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