Lyr Add: England My England

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 10:35 AM

This post is know reaching the point where people will join in and repaet all kinds of stuff that has been said and rebutted earlier.

I would ask anybody: if you can't be bothered to read the whole thread to read mikeofnorthumbria above or just don't bother.

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 10:25 AM

>>If you look at the story the pensioner comes off as a particularly predjudiced sort of person.
<<

He does doesn't he.

However putting him in prison for wanting to say he was English is a bit harsh.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 10:22 AM

Folkiedave, everyone gets free prescriptions in Scotland and Wales.

They don't in Scotland. I only started getting them free when I turned 60 a couple of months ago.

Put me in mind of a speech by the Australian Priminister some time ago, saying basically they welcome with open arms anyone who wants to go and live there and help Australia be the best at anything it does

He was lying. Australia's treatment of refugees in the last few years has been appalling.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 10:22 AM

Does being 60 give you free prescritions in England. Well I didn't know that one. So what you are saying is that I should be getting any medical things I need for free e.g. paracetomal, cough mixture etc etc.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 10:20 AM

It's the same on any form - And I always tick 'Other European' :-) If you look at the story the pensioner comes off as a particularly predjudiced sort of person.

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 10:15 AM

I'll be sixty next year Villan.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 10:06 AM

So does it come from there Greg?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:50 AM

I have spent my life researching English folk music. Which I think eminently qualifies me to say that that poem/song is a load of ignorant, sub-Fascist drivelling bollocks. Fit for nothing except being printed on the back of Nick Griffin's Christmas cards.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:47 AM

Keith, was Scottish or Irish or Welsh allowed on the Census?

If not, then I wouldn't have an issue.

I always fill in Britsh on forms, but I am still English.

Also how will you get free prescriptions in England, Keith?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:40 AM

Folkiedave, everyone gets free prescriptions in Scotland and Wales.
I don't get mine until next year.
Will English be a permitted nationality on the 2011 census?
It was not last time.
One pensioner went briefly to prison for refusing to fill in the last one with other than English nationality.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1841092.stm

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:31 AM

I get free prescriptions and have done so for six years.

As far as banning St. George's Day is concerned one place that did it was Sandwell. - they did it because fascist groups had used it as an excuse for violence the previous year.

Bradford's St. George's Day parade was a police organised event which whose route needed to be altered- again because of possible violence.

Thanks to co-operation between local folk groups and Sheffield City Council we are expanding St. George's day each year.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:22 AM

I read avery good article (Guardian I think) that exploded many of the myths about town halls not being able to fly the flag, banning Christmas, not being able to say blackboard etc. etc. Wish I could find it now. To anyone who is saying that we are not allowed to celebrate Englishness I would just say this. Just who are these people that are stopping you from doing it? Have you ever tried organising any celebrations yourself? Just stop and think for a minute. Why is St Patricks day celebrated more in New York and Chicago than in Dublin? Why is Burns night massive in Nova Scotia? Why is Eid a massive event in Rusholme, Manchester? Because people away from home have the strongest feelings for their old traditions maybe? Does anyone honestly think that they would be arrested by the "PC Brigade" (God, I hate that phrase) if they laid on Roast beef and plum duff on April 23? Come on, people. give it try. It doesn't hurt. Honest!

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:19 AM

Back to the song -
"To be Scottish, Irish or Welsh that's fine
But don't say you're English, that's way out of line."

If Scotland, Ireland and Wales are establishing their own identities then that does not diminish England in any way. It's Britain that is diminishing and good thing to.

"The French and the Germans may call themselves such
So may Norwegians, the Swedes and the Dutch
You can say you are Russian or maybe a Dane
But don't say you're English ever again."

I'm Scot's and I love England and many, many things English. The problem I have is the continued failure of many English persons to differentiate between Britain/GB/UK and England. I love the fact that the words and symbols of England are being re-claimed from the far right.

Let England and the other nations thrive but let's put the UK/GB state out of its misery.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:59 AM

>>i think the difference they are trying to talk about, is that look at the fuss that st.patricks day causes, or burns night.

on st georges day, in some parts of the country, taxis are told not to wave the georges flag, public buildings are not allowed to fly the flag either. in case of upsetting people.

it seems that our flag and our national pride have been stolen by football hooligans and facist thugs.not to mention our reputation of behavour in other countries.
most people just want to show support and some pride in where we come from, well thats my theory anyway.<<

Well said Jeddy and nothing offensive about that. Why can't those living in England get the same privelages and free prescriptions etc :-)

Subject: RE: England My England
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:56 AM

The issue this thread raises is complex and controversial. I'd prefer to avoid confronting it and just get on with the rest of my life. But unfortunately it's too important (and potentially too dangerous) to ignore. So here we go …

The song posted by Villan is a good example of the old adage that sometimes half a truth can be more misleading than an outright lie. That song contains two distinct messages, one quite reasonable and the other extremely questionable. The people who are pushing that song seek to blur those two messages into one, and then to persuade us that their position is the only possible one. And thereby to recruit more people to their shoddy cause.

First message – the reasonable one
For quite a while, English people have been encouraged to adopt a pre-emptive cringe towards the rest of humanity.   We have been told to walk about with our heads bowed down in penance for the sins of our forefathers, accepting personal responsibility and individual guilt for the Highland clearances, the Irish famine, the Amritsar massacre, the North Atlantic slave trade, the fire-bombing of Dresden, etc, etc. The song argues that English people should stop cringing, and instead show more pride in the honourable parts of their own history and more enthusiasm for their own culture.

On the whole, I agree. Why? Because the way that (some of) our forefathers behaved was not very different from the way people of almost every other nationality behaved at that time. The English (for a short while) did these dirty deeds more efficiently than many of their competitors. If they hadn't, their competitors would certainly have done much the same to them. That was history – the nightmare from which we are all trying to awaken. By all means let's apologise for misdeeds in the here and now – whether done by us or by those claiming to act in our name – but leave judgement on past sins to professional historians.

Second message – the dangerous one
The second half of the song, however, implies that the best way forward for the English would be to isolate themselves from the rest of the world. By withdrawing from the European Union (and possibly even breaking up the UK), by closing their borders to new immigrants, and by persuading or compelling recent immigrants to return to the countries they (or their parents, or their grandparents) came from.   This is impossible, and even if it were possible, it would be very, very undesirable.

Why? Firstly, because modern transport and communications technologies cannot be uninvented, and the globalised economy they have created cannot be dismantled. The free flow of capital, commodities, and labour between nations can be blocked temporarily, but only at an intolerable cost to the people of any nation whose government is misguided enough to go down that road. (North Korea is the classic example.)

Secondly, because "England" has never been a fixed, static entity. "Our" culture has been renewed and enriched for millennia by successive waves of immigrants – Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Scandinavians, Normans, Flemings, Huguenots and Jews – all of whom have eventually put down roots and contributed massively to the wellbeing of the wider community. Most of our more recent immigrants, whether from the former British Empire or from the European Union, are equally committed to their new home, and willing to share the burdens as well as the benefits of citizenship. (Look again at the names on the casualty-lists from Iraq and Afghanistan.) They have embraced many features of our indigenous culture, while enriching it with fresh ingredients of their own – from curries to carnival. This is A GOOD THING

So what is to be done then?
On this topic, I agree 100% with Billy Bragg – people from the left, the centre, and the reasonable right of the political spectrum have to reclaim the concept of Englishness from the irrational right, before they contaminate it any further. And before they move on from spouting inflammatory rhetoric to doing deeds our descendants will have to apologise for in the future.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:49 AM

Brian Sewell is very silly and should not be encouraged

L in C
But so is John

Subject: RE: England My England
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:47 AM

i think the difference they are trying to talk about, is that look at the fuss that st.patricks day causes, or burns night.

on st georges day, in some parts of the country, taxis are told not to wave the georges flag, public buildings are not allowed to fly the flag either. in case of upsetting people.

it seems that our flag and our national pride have been stolen by football hooligans and facist thugs.not to mention our reputation of behavour in other countries.
most people just want to show support and some pride in where we come from, well thats my theory anyway.

as for st george, as someone else said, shouldn't our national flag be the green dragon of alfred the great, as he had the vision of this country as one kingdom?

i keep saying that mudcat has gone downhill lately and i was going to give it a rest, as so many threads have decended into personal point scoring and i get bored.
this is the sort of thread that keeps me coming back and keeps me interested.
thankyou for proving that mudcat does still have some decenct people who can debat without it turning into a proper arguement.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:34 AM

Good post Mr el Gnomo. It has always intrigued me that those who want to proclaim their Englishness loudest fail to acknowledge that they are descended from a long line of invaders. Angles, |Jutes, Huns, Saxons, Normans and more latterly (and, for the most part, peacably although I discount Kilburn High Road on a Friday night in the sixties) Irish, Asian, West Indian have all contributed to the cultural diversity. And those who say get over it are spot on.

I watched John Prescott in dialogue with Brian Sewell on 't tele last night. Two fine Englishmen with nary a square foot of common ground between them; they could well have been from different planets.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:29 AM

"Whoever penned this ill-informed, jingoistic drivel is unlikely to be a fascist as adherence to such an ideology involves some understanding of economics and anthropology which is clearly lacking."

I doubt you'd need much more than the fingers of one hand to count the number of British fatshits who possess a grasp of economics.

Regarding anthropology, the evolutionary ideas of early anthropologists undeniably gave succour to fascist ideologies, as did the works of many other Victorian thinkers, Darwin, Spencer and Malthus among them. However, more recent social anthropologists,IE., those from the early years of the twentieth century onwards, have probably done more than any other academic discipline to explode the myth of racial inequality, which fascism has continually festered on.

BTW. Has English person ever been told not to call themselves English? I certainly haven't.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:28 AM

It seems the far right and trying to get into the folkie world - that alone shows how confused and ignorant they are. The world of folk is .............. erm ................. no I can't finish that

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:25 AM

I'm delighted to find myself in agreement with DelG.

When I had personal dealings with one of these nutters a few years ago, I naively thought I could persuade him of the error of his ways. When he started going on about the importance of the Anglo-Saxon/Scandinavian/Germanic gene pool, I pointed out that my ancestry was largely "Celtic" but, having been born in a Cotswold village, the son of a farmworker, I considered myself English. Discussions broke off shortly afterwards.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:20 AM

"St George's Field?"

Absolutely, Les!
"The crowd chanted 'Wilkes and Liberty', 'No Liberty, No King', and 'Damn the King! Damn the Government! Damn the Justices!'"

And Magna Carta, The Peasants' Revolt, The English Civil War, The Peterloo Massacre, The Levellers and The Diggers (of course), The Luddites, The Tolpuddle Martyrs, The Jarrow Crusade……etc., etc.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: oscdav
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:13 AM

Show me just one resident of these Great Isles that has pure Scotish, Irish, Welsh, or English blood. The whole of Britain and Ireland is made up of a mongrel race. Read your history, inwardly digest,celebrate and get over it.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:13 AM

Good one DeG. "English", or "Scottish" or anything else for that matter, is a moveable, individual feast. It's a wise child as knows his own g-g-g-g-ggrandfathers...

So, if being English includes a sizeable chunk of Scottish, Irish, Dutch/Flemish, Lancashire, Norfolk and who knows what else, then, ermm... ,well, yes, being English is OK really...

Crap verses, by the way.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:06 AM

Snail -               and I thought my post was bad.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:58 AM

GREEN WELLIES

How did Jesus and Joseph get tickets for Glastonbury?

Friends in high places.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:53 AM

How did Jesus and Joseph get tickets for Glastonbury? They're always sold out.



Sorry.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:45 AM

Good one Dave

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:37 AM

It's a really strange thing that some people who claim to be 'proud to be English' seem to have little grasp of what it actualy means. I like being English, I cannot claim to be proud becuase where I was born was a simple quirk of fate and nothing whatsoever to do with me! My Polish Father, and his Russian Father and Polish Mother were here becuase Poland had become to difficult to live in during the 1940s. Grandad (Deda to use the Russian term) was in Poland because the Communists made it too uncomfortable to be in Russia. My maternal grandmother was born in Rhuddlan, North Wales, and was here because her Father moved to find work. My maternal Grandfather's family came to Lancashire as strike breakers from Staffordshire. How can that have been anything to do with me?

All that being said I repeat that I like being English. I will celebrate the diversity of our culture. I will have a Curry or a Pizza or Piroggi to celebrate St Georges day, I will play my Anglo-concertina for Abram Morris and sing a Scottish song in the pub. It's great! Why the need to keep harping on about the (in)glorious past?

And, yes, the song is shite.

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:36 AM

BBCW...'and did those feet in ancient times' refers to the story of jesus travelling to England with Joseph of Arimathea, a merchant. Legend has it that they travelled to Glastonbury, and that the holy thorn grew out of Joseph's walking stick, which was made of rosewood from palestine.
    Its a good old story, and 'jerusalem' is still sung with gusto, so don't worry too much if its not true.


   Anyway, I have always found it odd that people claim to be proud of something that they have no choice in. I AM, english. I'm proud of my achievements, vicariously both proud and ashamed of some of the deeds of my countrymen. I admit that I feel fortunate to have been born in England, but an accident of birth is more a matter for thankfulness rather than pride.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Silas
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:20 AM

Well, the myth that Harold was the rightful heir to the throne still exists in this country despite the evidence.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:14 AM

Good Soldier Schweik

who built Hadrians wall

The Romans under Emperoror Hadrian.

and why?

As a defence agaisnst the undefeated tribes in what is now Scotland.

why the boundary there and not further up.

Because the earlier Antonine Wall from the Forth to the Clyde proved impossible to hold.

Nothing to do with the topic but rather more interesting.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:12 AM

Bubblyrat,
I'm not sure that you can say the Jesus never came to the British Isles (not England then I agree - no Angles). If you take the Bible as a history book there is nothing in there about him between the ages of approximately 13 and 32.
Others have asserted that he travelled with his uncle and saw the known world.
There is also an assertion that one of the lesser known deciples was Welsh.
I don't have any links to any of this, just what I remember from various convesations, but lack of evidence is not not proof.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:07 AM

The 'trouble' actually started with them Neolithic Framers of the New Stone Age!

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:02 AM

Jesus, can't these people at least write *good* songs about England?

That's what I hate about Nationalist tripe like this. Is that it's so stoopid and embarrassing. I wonder if the writer has ever even come within so much of a whiff of Shakespeare? Not bloody likely judging by the err 'standard' of this football chant.

This isn't a proud celebration of English culture and history (of which there is plenty to rightly celebrate), it's a botched whinging little attack at other countries in Europe.

Whoever wrote it also obviously doesn't actually give a dick for (or indeed know dick about) traditional English culture either, or they wouldn't have randomly and erroneously picked on Shaw or the Union Flag, as representative of it!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:40 AM

GSS,I'm with you in what you've said, however the Romans got it wrong Hadrian's wall should have been built on the Pennines to keep the Tykes out of God's own county [ for non Brits. that's Lancashire}.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:35 AM

Yes agree there GSS and lets have our freebies just like Scotland and Wales.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:34 AM

Sorry, GUEST of 15 Oct 09 - 05:23 AM was me. My cookie had crumbled

bubblyrat

Harold's defeat at Hastings was actually a giant leap forward for this country

I think some of the English nationalists believe that that was when the rot set in. One of them called itself the Malfosse Society. Malfosse was the site in the Battle of Hastings of the last stand of Englands aristocracy after Harold was killed.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:30 AM

what evidence is there to prove that Harolds defeat was a giant leap forward for this country?.
it was a giant leap forward for william and his cronies who helped themselves to what they liked for the ordinary person it made very little difference.
anyway the whole concept of countries and their boundaries is ridiculous,who built Hadrians wall and why?why the boundary there and not further up. why ?
Geographically Wales England and Scotland,are inseparable,lets pull down the boundaries,and get on with trying to make the whole island a better place for everybody regardless of race.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:22 AM

Yes I would go with that

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:20 AM

Are there millions of christians in England? Has anyone counted and if so, why? It's a middle eastern religion, innit?
Whoever penned this ill-informed, jingoistic drivel is unlikely to be a fascist as adherence to such an ideology involves some understanding of economics and anthropology which is clearly lacking. Not having reached even the level of grasping that misappropriation of nationality of one of Ireland's greatest literary figures betrays a legacy of outdated yet ingrained imperialism.
Yes, BB's England Half English is massively more appropriate today, illustrating as it does how England is now.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:16 AM

Well put Mr Leveller!

L in C

St George's Field?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:11 AM

The problem with this sort of doggerel is that it looks backwards instead of looking forward. Of course our history and our heritage are important but there is as much a heritage of dissent, revolution and attempts to change the status quo as there is of jingoism and misplaced patriotism.

Today (well, in a 2003 survey) less than 18% of people are participating members of an organized religion and over half don't believe in god. The monarchy is a redundant anachronism and has been since 1649. There is greater cultural and ethnic diversity than ever before. Education is no longer for the privileged few. The ways we earn our livings had changed beyond recognition. Our needs and expectations are constantly evolving. Why do we persistently hark back to an age that was, for most people, far inferior in most respects – let's be proud of the real England of today and of how we can make it even better?

As the parrots on Aldous Huxley's Island kept repeating: "Here and now, boys. Here and now."

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Fidjit
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 05:44 AM

I prefer Billy Brag's, "Half English"

My breakfast's half English
I had a plate of Marmite sandwiches
Washed down with a cappuccino
Nice big curry about once a week
Next day a fry up of bubble and squeak
'cos my appetite's half English
and I'm half English too

It's more to the point.

Chas

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 05:23 AM

It's a widespread anthem amongst English nationalist groups, the sort of people who see the BNP as dangerously cosmopolitan.

Try Google "But don't say you're English, that's way out of line".

Subject: RE: England My England
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 05:22 AM

I am very proud to be English. I don't give a shit where GBS came from ,or whether or not St George ever trod this sceptred isle; Jesus certainly didn't either, but that hasn't affected the millions of Christians who rejoice here. Harold's defeat at Hastings was actually a giant leap forward for this country ,thanks to the French--our current Sovereign,who comes from a long line of Germans, is married to a Greek. Complex,isn't it ?? But that's England for you !!
-----and I am PROUD to be a part of it.
            By the way, Fascism has bugger all to do with it: if you don't know what the word means, then please don't use it, it just causes offence, and can lead to anger, resentment, and, regrettably, legal action.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 05:20 AM

"Saying My country right or wrong is like saying my mother drunk or sober". George Orwell. Well, approximately.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: alanabit
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 05:18 AM

I have had several of these e-mails over the past couple of years. Some people seem to find them funny, but I have serious misgivings about them. Someone is trying to propogate the idea that "Englishness" (whatever that might mean) is under threat and needs protection from all the usual suspects. I received this particular piece of doggerel some weeks back and just to clear up a few misgivings, I actually annotated it and sent it back.

I wonder how many readers even recognised the title and have read the short story (by DH Lawrence) to which it alludes. That was anything but a piece of breast beating psuedo patriotism. Shaw, of course was Irish. Agincourt, whilst indeed a famous victory, was actually fought so that a beaten army could run away and hop on the Calais Dover Ferry after an unsuccessful hooligan season. (England's excuse for being there was so piffling that even Shakespeare took the piss out of it at the start of Henry V).
No one wishes to decry the heroism of English soldiers at Arnhem, but we should also mention the very brave Scots, Welsh, Irish, Canadians and Poles.

"Europe is miles away over the sea." It is also close enough for a person of exceptional fitness to swim.

"We are proud of our heritage the red, white and blue." Can anyone tell me where I might find the blue in the flag of St.George?

In short, I reckon this piece of doggerel has little value as either history or poetry.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 05:14 AM

"Facts are just so inconvenient ..."

Amen. As a matter of fact Milton, Shakespeare and Shaw for that matter were never taught in my school. I do recall getting pumped full of Kipling though.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 05:10 AM

So now being proud of your country, your heritage and wanting the best for it is being a fascist. Dont you think thats just a bit narrow minded.