BS: BNP on question time

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:20 AM

Bonnie Greer doesn't own the golly jam badges personally. They are on museum display as items of cultural history. To cite them is as fatuous as Nasty Nick's attempt to smear Jack Straw for the stance his father took on conscription before he was even born.

And who's this Azizi that's crept into the discussion? Baroness Warsi's first name is Sayeeda.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Ed.
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:28 AM

And who's this Azizi that's crept into the discussion?

If you have to ask that, then you're a total fool...

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:29 AM

"And who's this Azizi that's crept into the discussion? Baroness Warsi's first name is Sayeeda."

I've admitted to confusion, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:31 AM

Just a thought ahead of the inevitable next time The Beeb let him back on QT (cos let's face it, there's no way they'll pass up the sky-high viewing figures it'll generate!) Where was Benjamin Zephaniah? He's been on QT a few times in the past: he's witty, articulate, thought-provoking, Black British, a genuinely nice bloke so far as I can tell... well, everything that Griffin isn't, basically! Anyone else think he'd be a good candidate to make Quasimodo look even more dopey than he already does?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:43 AM

Mr Green....Agree absolutely.
Benjamin (who is a really nice guy BTW!)...How about Billy Bragg,...you can add more names here,!
Sticking up sad old politicians, who are being too careful of their comments, ahead of an election in a few months time...(Got to protect those expensives claims after all..)
Bob Geldorf anyone?
OK...Challenge to you all.
Panellists would be....(Living or Dead!)
1. Nick Griffin
2. ............
3. ............
4. ............
5. ............

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: bubblyrat
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:58 AM

I watched some of the programme,and some of the news coverage of it.I have to say that what frightens and worries me is not the BNP.It's not the "Fascist thugs" who seem to have thoroughly disconcerted many of you out there ( presumably their objective ??) ; what I found most disturbing was the behaviour of the screaming ,lawless rabble who were seemingly hell bent on storming the BBC building,with no regard to the protocols of legal peaceful protest. I feel really sorry for the police on occasions such as this.There are ways in which people can both legitimately and effectively make their views known about organisations like the BNP-----last night's riotous assembly was not,sadly,one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 06:18 AM

Okay, for living people, off the top of my head - BZ, Sanjeev Bhaskar (as he's really funny) and Tony Benn (just to show Griffin what a real politician is like!)

If we're going with dead people as well, I'd like to nominate my family's GP, Dr Amal Dharry. I was quite a sickly child (to use a Victorian expression) and I saw a lot of him when I was a toddler. He was patient, kind and knowledgable.

He was stabbed to death in 1981 by a racist thug, for no other motive than because he was Indian. I remember my mum trying to explain to me why he was dead, and even at the age of 5 the idea that someone would kill someone else merely because of the colour of their skin struck me as utterly baffling. I'm now 32 and it still does.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 06:58 AM

And where, bubblyrat, is your condemnation of the lawless, violent and intimidating thugs seen at every pro-BNP rally - and, indeed, who roam our streets and harass people going about their lawful business? That is what the police have to deal with every day of the year. It is totally legitimate to protest against these fascist thugs. Try to see the bigger picture or you will be accused of prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:02 AM

""There are ways in which people can both legitimately and effectively make their views known about organisations like the BNP-----last night's riotous assembly was not,sadly,one of them.""

Have you noticed anyone here supporting the actions of those rioters?

Before deciding that all the protesters were of the same stamp, it might be wise to scan your memory banks for evidence of all the previous peaceful protests which have been hi-jacked by opposing factions, precisely to evoke the kind of knee jerk response you have just demonstrated.

It may be that some small section of the protesters stupidly carried things too far. It may equally be that planted BNP supporters fomented trouble to make Griffin look like the victim of a witch hunt.

Perhaps we would be wiser to reserve judgement until we KNOW what occurred, otherwise peaceful protest is impossible in the future.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Joe Grundy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:09 AM

Racism also works the other way, Chris.
A lot of Black on White crimes are never publicised.

Overall, I thought Nick Griffin accounted for hisself very well against such a hostile baying mob.

I thought I'd never see the day when the BNP would have 2 MEPs elected, what with me farmer's lung an' all ...

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:21 AM

""Racism also works the other way, Chris.
A lot of Black on White crimes are never publicised""

I don't know what news media YOU follow mate, but my telly screen is regularly, and frequently, passing on the details of black criminals' trials and convictions, as well as white.

I should get rid of that chip on your shoulder for a start. That should ease you breathing problems.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:45 AM

I'm well aware that racism can cut both ways. I'm not a halfwit and don't patronise me. However, my previous post concerned a specific event that is a matter of public record and that affected me personally. I note that you chose not to respond with a similar account of such an event, confining yourself instead to the rather nebulous 'A lot of Black on White crimes'. Why didn't you feel able to do this? Because they're not publicised? Then how do you know about them? Have you had or do you have a friend who has direct experience of such a crime? Or do you take your facts from the School of What Some Bloke Down the Pub Said? I suspect the latter, but am perfectly happy to be shown otherwise through evidence of the kind that I've supplied.

And incidentally Griffin didn't account for himself at all. He hid behind his usual cocktail of lies and inflammatory rhetoric. FFS, his opening gambit was to try and discredit Jack Straw by bringing up that his father was a conchie! Anyone with any confidence in the validity of their message wouldn't have to resort to puerile mud-slinging along the lines of 'my dad's harder than your dad'.

If that's your definition of 'accounting well for yourself' then I shan't wait with baited breath for a cogent and coherent response to my first paragraph!

However, before this gets too divisive, let's try and find some common ground. I too never thought I'd see the day when the BNP got two MEPs elected.

I'll remember it for the rest of my life as the first day I ever felt abjectly ashamed and embarrassed to be English.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 07:55 AM

As a co-panelleist, wouldn't you have loved to see griffin sitting next to Muhammed Ali in his prime?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:00 AM

Thank you Tug! That's an image that'll be with me for quite some time!

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:01 AM

Well said, Chris. As regards the election of two BNP MEPs, some of us are working to ensure that it doesn't happen again. As a voter in one of the constituencies wherE it happened, I say NOT IN MY NAME.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:10 AM

And who's this Azizi that's crept into the discussion?

LOL!

I don't creep. I leap.

Sometimes I read threads
but don't let out a peep.
Some comments put me to sleep.
And a few have made me weep.

But if I were on that panel.
What Griffen sowed
he would have reaped.
Cause I don't creep. I leap.


-snip-

Okay. I never said that I was a song composer or a rapper.

And I know that adding that "ed" ending to "reaped" means that technically that word doesn't rhyme with "creep". But I wanted to end with a bit of hip-hop braggadocia about how I'd take out that scum Griffin.

So there ya go.

:o)

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:15 AM

A memory I shall cherish for a very long time.

A member of the public saying to Nick Griffin

"There's a lot of us who would be happy to hold a whip round to buy you a ticket to the Antarctic. That's a colourless landscape which would suit you down to the ground".

And all the weasel could manage was a nod and a sickly grin.

The worst thing that can happen to the BNP is for Nasty Nick to remain their leader.

On a scale of one to ten his credibility is about minus twenty.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:36 AM

From a news report
More than eight million people tuned in to watch Mr Griffin on the programme - around three times the usual number of viewers and just over half of the potential audience.

   hmmmmm, as if they didn't know that would happen. Await ITV and other commercial stations queuing up to cash in on the advertising revenue. people who think he was 'unfairly treated' as he claims wil be calling for him to have a 'proper chance to explain his policies'. I'd wager that more than a few of the disenfranchised are now seeing the BNP in a better light. Well done BBC!

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 08:45 AM

And who's this Azizi that's crept into the discussion?

I don't creep. I leap.


I'd have thought being confused by someone with a Tory life peer would be cause for considerable alarm.
And are you really unaware of the overwhelming importance and ubiquity in broadcasting of the Dimbleby dynasty?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:05 AM

http://www.youtube.com/user/QuestionTimeBNP#p/u/0/-jQsTtbR1OU

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:17 AM

Do I hear an echo? ;o)

Here's for true confessions:

I never heard the name "Dimbleby" until last night while reading about the show with Griffin and the rest. And I still know nothing about Mr. Dimbleby except for what Richard wrote in his 23 Oct 09 post about him being "a flagship political commentator for the BBC"
etc.

That's the extent of my knowledge about "the overwhelming importance and ubiquity in broadcasting of the Dimbleby dynasty".

And I know absolutely nothing about Tory life peers, Baroness or otherwise. But-to quote a comment that I made in an above the line thread on another subject-I'm neither proud nor ashamed of that fact.

Some might say that I'm culturally deprived. But I know that it's just a matter of there always being more to learn about other nations as well as about your own nation.

But enough about me. On with the show! As Ed Sullivan used to say.

You do know who Ed Sullivan was, don't you? And if not, maybe it's because you live in a different nation than I do or you're a different age, and have different interest than me.

So The Borchester Echo, please excuse my feeble play on words regarding your screen name and my attempt to include a touch of lightheartedness to this thread. It seems to me that heavy duty threads like this might need a light touch of lightheartedness. But I definitely recognize the seriousness of this subject.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:21 AM

Sorry, pressed button too soon.

You can see whole thing on that link, G-Man digging himself into a big hole!

One've the highlights, among many, was when an audience questioner's Freudian slip caused a loud ripple of amusement & many nodding heads, when he addressed him as 'DICK'!

Too right, what a dick!!

More 'know your enemy' stuff here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin#cite_note-Ryanp62-22

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:23 AM

Azizi,

For your information, David Dimbleby here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Dimbleby

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:26 AM

Mr Griffin came across on this programme as an incompetent idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:41 AM

"".....an incompetent idiot""

That's about right.

He's not even competent at being an idiot.

How dumb is that?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:51 AM

it is nice to see you making a good and intelligent contribution to the thread JB. keep the in depth analyisis coming please.

now .... did anyone else notice that our loverly nick, kept making huge mistakes when he got annoyed or flustered?

like when he was talking about section 28?

i love the fact that 8 million people tuned in, and watched an incompatant fool.

greer, although funny, was abit of a wasted seat as far as i could see.

someone said something about the consevartive woman, wazzi? is it?
that she was blatantly homophobic? i have never heard of her before.

most of what she was saying made sense, she was the one who tackled immigration with any sort of forward vision as far as i can remember. i will rewatch the programme just to make sure of this.

i thought jack straw was very good at not letting nick draw him into the my daddy did this arguement. it must have been very tempting.

on the whole i thought the programme was brilliant. nick had the oppotunity to speak up, but was happy to let them others do most of the work. he came accross as way in over his head.
he tried to makehim selk more likeable by laughing at himself, and was sucking up too much to greer. in normal cercomstances we would have blanked her or insulted her, but knew he had to appear reasonable. greer did turn her back on him alot, i am not sure if this was a snub, or she was talking to the audiance?

have a great day everyone

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 09:58 AM

Thanks for posting those links, Mr. Happy.

Here's a link to a post-program discussion that I find interesting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2009/10/do_you_speak_race.html

Do you speak Race?
Mark Easton | 12:42 UK time, Friday, 23 October 2009


[And let me say at the onset that I have absolutely no clue who Mark Eston is and what his politics are either.]

Here's an excerpt of that blog post:

"A telling moment on last night's Question Time did not involve Mr Griffin at all. It was an exchange between Jack Straw and a black woman in the audience.

This is what she said:

"The parties must listen because, one of the things, I am sitting here and every time Jack Straw or somebody or one of the panel says 'Afro-Caribbean', I am cringing."
(The justice minister holds up his hands in apology.)

"Afri-CAN Ca-RIB-bean!" the woman corrects him.
Discussing race in this country is to walk on egg-shells. When even an experienced signed-up multiculturalist like Mr Straw gets caught out, it becomes obvious how difficult it is even to find the language in which to conduct a grown-up debate about it...

People generally don't want to offend and the shifting sands of acceptable racial vocabulary mean that many dare not even step into the territory. It is a dangerous domain - one false move and you are branded a bigot.

Part of the problem has been the absence of formal public debate about race. Mainstream politicians have tended to opt out or dodge the subject, so the boundaries of acceptable discourse are poorly understood - even by our Parliamentarians.

Last night's programme saw all the panellists try to shift the discussion away from the question of race onto less troublesome terrain.

"This is not a race debate, this is a debate about resources," said the Conservative Sayeeda Warsi, adding that she didn't want a BNP-style discourse "about black and brown people". (I suspect few white politicians would ever dare employ the phrase "brown people", incidentally). All are happy to see the discussion shifted onto safer ground.

Nick Griffin used the expression "indigenous British people" to describe the constituency he seeks to represent.

"The whites!" retorted jack Straw, keen to push the BNP leader into the race debate. "Skin colour's irrelevant, Jack, skin colour's irrelevant," Mr Griffin responded, as anxious as the rest to avoid the elephant traps of a debate about ethnicity."

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:04 AM

Some stuff herehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Griffinabout Griffin's father.

Looks like the lad underwent some brainwashing during his early socialisation

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:07 AM

Someone ought to tell Griffin that when you start insulting someone else's parents       you've lost.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:07 AM

Mark easton is a BBC journalist.
He hosts a regular blog on their website.http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:08 AM

To be honest, I did think it was a bit daft for that audience member to get hung up on a relatively minor point of semantics when there were far deeper issues at hand. You have to choose your battles, really. Dimbleby even said "coloured" at one point, but it was allowed to pass by the panel and the audience, presumably because his actual interrogation of the policies of the BNP were rather more important.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:10 AM

Here's another excerpt of that same blog post written by Mark Easton:

"This is a problem because it is the recent arrival of people from different ethnic backgrounds into predominantly white communities which is the cause of one of the anxieties underlying the programme. It is not the fact that the new arrivals look different; it is that they behave differently. But neighbourhoods are being transformed because people from other cultures are moving in there. Rapid social change is often linked to ethnic change - and people are disturbed by that."

-snip-

Of course, this is Mr. Easton's opinion, and I'm not sure that I buy his view that "It is not the fact that the new arrivals look different; it is that they behave differently."

That was my first reaction to that sentence. My second reaction was to wonder how and when new arrivals to Britain are behaving differently. Speaking for myself (as I always do), some differences in behavior would cause me concern (like people walking around with no clothes on) while others would be either interesting, positive, or none of my business (like people chosing to wearing their tradition clothing or eat their foods from their culture of origin).

Here's a reader's comment to that particular portion of that blog post:

#3-1:13pm on 23 Oct 2009, The Magic Tramp wrote:


[The above excerpt quoted]

"There is a little logical inconsistency in your approach Mark Easton, ironically, one you share with the BNP.

The claim that people are concerned about immigrant behaviour is not born out by the facts. For example, Mr Griffin complained that he had a less sympathetic audience in West London because it is no longer a British city, that the 'indigenous' community is in the minority. However, the audience appeared to have a skin-colour mix that would suggest a high percentage of of them would be considered British by the BNP, yet there was an overwhelming support from the vast majority of the audience for positions that were against the BNP.

Similarly, if you look at the distribution of BNP candidates for local councils they tend to come from areas of low immigration. And, if the recently released BNP membership lists are to be taken at face value, then the membership from areas with high levels of mixed ethnicities is incredibly low.

So how is it possible that the rise of the BNP, and the general rise of racial concern in the population, is engendered by different cultural behavior but does not seem to provoke political action from the white populations in those areas?"

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 10:22 AM

' Of course, this is Mr. Easton's opinion, and I'm not sure that I buy his view that "It is not the fact that the new arrivals look different; it is that they behave differently." '

Mark Easton may well be referring to the fact that the largest sector of new immigrants in Britain DON'T look different - they are Eatern European. But they do, of course, behave differently - they have specialist shops that sell their food, they speak their own language in the street. Because new immigrants gravitate to places where they have friends or relatives to help them get a foot on the ladder, immigration does tend to be concentrated in particular neighbourhoods and towns - twas always thus, and not just in Briatin. So yes, SOME neighboruhoods (by no means all) are experiencing very rapid change. The problem comes when inflammatory and inaccurate reporting in the press, or within politics, exaggerates this change to make it appear to be the rule, rather than the exception. Given that Britain is still something like 90% white British, it really IS the exception: a number of places in Britain are very culturally diverse. An awful lot more aren't. What happens, IMHO, is that the former situation is used as a bugbear with which to frighten people living in largely white, middle-class places: "It'll be your street next. They'll take away your way of life! They'll make you live like they do!" People are frightened of change - they are told change will be forced upon them. They become defensive and insular.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:12 PM

You are quite right, Ruth. I used to be involved in multi-cultural and ant-racist eduction in Leicester. here there were several areas with high a concentration of people from Asia, and of asians expelled from East Africa. It was in the White Islands and Highlands, however, that one would met the most explicit racism.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:27 PM

I've several questions about British cultural practices/terms:

1. What is the meaning of the red flower lapel pins that the moderator and all the panelists wore during last night's Question Time show? (I also noticed that one audience member-The Black man who asked about immigration-wore the same pin.)

2. What does "Do a whip up" mean? I'm guessing it means informally gather up money from various people, like the [American] saying? "pass the hat." Is that right?

3. I've noticed that a number of commentators on British blogs and on Mudcat also don't always capitalize racial and ethnic referents such as "Asian" [see Tug the Cox's post above]. Is this a commonly accepted practice? It appears to be and if so the practice is different in the USA. I believe this could be negatively misconstrued if people aren't aware of the differences in such a cultural/national practice.

4. With regard to the statement "It was in the White Islands and Highlands, however, that one would met the most explicit racism.", are those locations in Britain? I suppose the name "White Islands" has nothing to do with skin color. Is that right?

I'm asking these questions just because I'm curious, though I realize these are minor points.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:45 PM

Bragga-what?

Azizi - have you turned into Mary Hip-hoppins?

Your rhyme was truly Supercalafrajalistic-hip-hop-braggadocious.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:53 PM

1. "What is the meaning of the red flower lapel pins"

Poppy's - worn to commemorate those who died in the first world war.

Sold to raise money to help war veterans and worn on poppy day.

2. Not "whip up" but "whip around"

"To Whip up" would be "to incite" as in "whip up a storm/frenzy" etc though someones gran might be known to "whip up a meal" at short notice.

3. In the UK Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are commonly referred to as Asians though they might be better described as south asians as opposed to other general Asian groups such as indochinese or orientals.

These terms refer to geographical generalities.

4 - sorry no idea :-)

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:54 PM

Thanks, Lox. I think.

(I think. Therefore I am.)

Beside that, I'm procrastinating focusing on a project that I should be working on.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

I am sure someone will cross-post but

1. The red badges are poppies - worn for remeberence day - Novemeber 11.

2. A whip round is a collection. To whip up is to agitate. A political whip is a ficed party line, so this all depends on context.

3. The capitalisation is, I suspect, just a web based movement away from proper punctuation.

4. White Islands and Highlands - Over to you Tug. It's a new one on me.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

White in white highlands and islands does indeed refer to skin colour.

    In most cities that have attracted non-white immigration, the poorer quarters in what is known as the zone in transition are ususually inhabited first, as housing is more affordable. Alongside these are prosperous areas with expensive housing...the highlands, and areas outlying the chief areas of immigration, the islands.
Asian is normally capitalised when referring to a group of people, if it is a noun rather than an adjective,lower case if it is a more general adjective. I'm a lazy typer!
The red flowers were the British Legion Poppy appeal for remembrance Sunday, raising funds for the welfare of former servicemen. No celebrity or politician could afford to be seen without one at this time of year. Try to wear a white one ( for peace) and you're likely to be lynched.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 12:57 PM

Sorry, a political whip is a FORCED party line. Unless it involves Sadie Whiplash, when there is almost always a Lord involved...

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM

There is slightly more to the wearing of poppies in this situation because Griffin has been trying to appropriate it to his cause along with Churchill and the Spitfire. much to the annoyance of the British Legion. See here - http://www.nothingbritish.com/09/bnp-news-round-up/.

I must say Tug's reference to the White Islands and Highlands confused me as well. The Highlands and Islands usually refers to the wilder and less populated parts of mainland Scotland and the islands down it's west coast. Relatively poor areas compared to the prosperous Lowlands.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM

"Thanks, Lox. I think."

Doh - just reread the capitalization question.

And then reread my answer.

I answered a different question - take no notice of my bad grammer.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:15 PM

I appreciate the responses, including the pm responses that I received.

I thought I was following what was written quite well (What with British English being a foreign language and all) until the mention of Sadie Whiplash and her involvement with a Lord.

No disrespect intended, but the name "Sadie Whiplash" reminds me of Snidely Whiplash, a character in "the tongue-in-cheek Dudley Do-Right of the Mounties segments of The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show by American animation pioneer Jay Ward."

And the mention of "a Lord" is foreign to me as a 'UnitedStater' since we don't have any Lords beside "the Lord" (which I know you weren't refering to].

I know this is just a diversion from the more serious discussions about fascism and racism and immigration and more.

Yet these comments illustrate how assumptions about cultural "givens" can be misunderstood.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:22 PM

Poppy's - worn to commemorate those who died in the first world war.

The fallen of ALL wars I believe, although it is commemorated on the anniversary of the end of WW2, Armictice Day, Novemeber 11. Good camapaign poster this year showing the lone coffin of a soldier fallen in Afghanistan.

Azizi - You are kidding me? I bet you have never heard of Bishops riding round on kiddies tricycles while being pelted with cream cakes next. Do the have NO decent perversions in the US?:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:29 PM

I ended up being sickened by the whole thing, so much so that I haven't been able to put finger to keyboard until now.

Yes, Griffin is an odious crud, and God knows he asked for it - and deserved it. But watching the spectacle of four panellists, one MC and I don't know how many audience members all tearing into him was like watching the town bully receiving the kicking of his life. I ended up wanting to shout enough is enough.

To make things worse, I do not think last night's QT did enough to expose the inconsistencies and contradictions of Griffin's position. The debate seemed to go round in circles with various panellists becoming hung up on what constitutes ethnicity. I don't know, but I do not what constitutes a first class prat, and he was sitting just on Dimbleby's left side.

When the programme was first mooted, I predicted Griffin would end up getting massacred, and that's certainly what happened. However, I was hoping then that the rest of the panel would, by reason of intelligent debate, force out of Griffin, the said inconsistencies, and show that they are the inevitable end-product of trying to launder an ideology as nauseous as fascism.

Positive points? Well, it had to be good to see the extent to which fascism is still reviled in this country, and that the Nick Griffins of this world cut no ice with decent, thinking people. It was also good to have confirmed something which I've long suspected; that the man is a complete buffoon who couldn't lead a parade of donkeys. I've read, and listened to, some of his more moronic statements, about dropping unwanted immigrants out of planes over Africa, or about sinking ships of illegal immigrants, and wondered how anyone with a Cambridge degree and a public school education, and a modicum of intelligence, and a desire to make it as a credible politician, could come out with such guff. Had he, I wondered, been saying these things just to pander to his own supporters? Evidently not.

I'm also left wondering what on earth I've been worried about all this time. Is Griffin the epitome of odium ? Unquestionably. Are his policies anathema to anyone who doesn't walk round with a bucket over their head? Certainly. But a charismatic, eloquent demagogue, who is capable of leading this country into the kind of mass destruction wrought by Hitler and his henchmen ? Never in a million years.

The question I'm now asking myself is, where does the far right go from here? I doubt Griffin's performance did him much harm among BNP supporters in BNP heartlands. Indeed, he may experience a slight surge in sympathetic support. But whether or not QT got to the heart of the matter or not, for everybody else, he has been exposed as the emperor with no clothes; as the man behind the curtain shouting "Take no notice of that man behind the curtain", in the Wizard of Oz.

But Griffin has been extremely successful in one respect. His attempts to carve out a 'constitutional' popular far right party, and sell it as the patriotic way forward, have pushed the more overtly extremist elements into the background. British fascism has gone through a number of phases since the second world war. It began as a group of outright nazis, swastikas and all, who were oblivious to the fact that we'd just defeated, and been sickened by, the very ideology they were trying to sell us. They then tried donning various shades of respectability, but still racist, still undeniably fascist, and still fooling no-one. Then Griffin decided to take the respectable image as far as it would go, and he found out last night that it will not stretch far enough to hide the real agenda of the BNP.

I'd like to nurse a quiet hope that last night's debacle will mark the beginning of the end of the BNP; that enough people will now have seen through them and through their pathetic attempts to make a constitutional silk purse out of a fascist sow's ear.

But at the same time, I have a nagging feeling that some of those fascists who realise the democratic process is a dead end, will return to the more orthodox methods of fascism; of jack boots and street parades and terrorisation of ethnic and social minorities. Keep your powder dry, folks. We just might need it.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:31 PM

Just a ps to the above. Did anybody notice, almost at the end of Question Time, Griffin accused the BBC of being ultra-left? I'm surprised none of the media seemed to pick that one up.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 01:33 PM

Not really off the subject:

I just clicked on that webpage again and noticed how the hero of this cartoon series Dudley Do-Right is drawn as a blong haired White man. His lady love (Nell Fenwick) is also drawn as a White woman (with red hair). And Dudley rides a white horse.

But "Whiplash is the stereotypical villain, in the style of stock characters found in silent movies and earlier stage melodrama, wearing black clothing, cape, and a top hat, and twirling his long handlebar moustache. He has a henchman named Homer, who usually wears a tuque. In the cartoon's opening segments, Snidely is seen tying Nell Fenwick to a railroad track. He is the antithesis of Do-Right, a picture-perfect stereotype of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police do-gooder.".

-snip-

The writer fails to mention that the villain, Snidely Whiplash, is not White but a kinda greenish color.

Does this matter?

I say Yes, since these stereotypes continue to permeate Western society in myriad ways.

This is an example of how deeply rooted, pernicious, and often unconscious institutional racism can be.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: paula t
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 03:41 PM

It pains me to say it , but I believe that once some misguided person had decided to give Griffin the publicity and credibility of being on question time, the panel should have avoided the temptation to "gang up on him". That could be seen in some quarters as bullying. The last thing we needed was for him to become some sort of victim.
He should have been made to answer the usual questions about the recession, and other current affairs.I'm sure that would have shown him up as someone with tunnel vision, who has nothing of value to say, and no idea what to do about unemployment,crime, etc - issues which greatly trouble the people who voted for him .That would have been the only value in upholding the right to free speech.(Although why he has this right when he regularly commits the crime of inciting racial hatred I do not know.)

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM


You do know who Ed Sullivan was, don't you?

Of course I do and although I would never willingly watch such unremitting crap (in common with The Simpsons and Twin Peaks), I am sufficiently aware of the content (or lack thereof) not to lump such productions indiscriminately with the current affairs output of the most celebrated trio so far in the annals of broadcasting. I have no knowledge of the production rigours applied to David Dimbleby's programmes, never having worked on them, but when I was attached to brother Jonathan's On The Record, the standards of research demanded into issues such as the BNP predecessor the National Front and its French equivalent the Front Nationale were the highest I have encountered in broadcasting or print journalism. The annual Richard Dimbleby lectures stand as a testament to the outstanding career of their late father.

As for QT panellist Sayeeda Warsi, a Tory Shadow Cabinet member for something meaningless, I found it mildly amusing and extremely bizarre that someone managed to confuse her with a contributor called "Azizi" who, I imagined, might wish to set the record straight. Whatever. Since she says she neither knows nor cares about anything associated with the British political system, I am obviously wasting my time and breath.