BS: BNP on question time

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 12:12 PM

And somebody only just faintly audible called back. "Oh no it isn't".

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 12:29 PM

The smug creep was boasting in todays papersd about the influence and credibility his ' common sense solutions' would be afforded on the ptogramme. Fortunately there's a music night on at the local, so I won't be tempted to bolster the ratings.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: folk1e
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 12:33 PM

Weather you like it or not BNP has polled 2% of the UK vote and as such have earned the right to media access.

It is interesting to hear an almost universal condemnation of the likes of Griffin as "Racist Thugs" without any attempt to gainsay his arguments. There ARE problems in parts of the UK that are ethnically based (the problems, not the places) and I see few solutions to these problems being advocated by any other political groups!

The solution to the BNP problem should be to remove their arguments not to call them names.

Whilst I am on my soapbox .....Who gave the jumped up Generals the idea that the "Spitfire" was their emblem to use as they see fit?
At least one potential Conservative MP has used it on his propaganda without causing the ire heaped on the BNP .... or does that not matter?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 12:41 PM

Maybe what matters is that the Spitfire flew in an anti-fascist war & is now being appropriated by fascists.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 12:41 PM

""Racism and sectarianism has existed for decades in our society and still exists....it is an unfortunate fact, but never the great danger to "democracy" that "liberals" claim it to be.""

I bet there were quite a lot of German pseudo intellectuals who thought exactly the same about Hitler, and if YOU can't see the parallels, your not as bright as you would wish to appear.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 01:20 PM

"Around 20 protestors from Unite Against Facism have arrived at the television centre. Organisers from the group say 16 coaches are expected in total.
They're gathered outside the main reception area in front of 7 policemen, chanting slogans including:

'Build a bonfire, build a bonfire, put Nick Griffin on the top,
Put the Nazis in the middle, and burn the fucking lot.' "


Admittedly, I laughed out loud when I read this. and my gut-reaction is to heartily agree with the sentiment, but on reflection I don't think sinking to the same moronic level as the BNP's rabble-chorus is in the least bit constructive. This sort of behaviour must be exactly what Griffin has been hoping for, and they are playing into his hands.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 01:57 PM

Why, what an inspired, hilarious, witty, original slogan. That will certainly settle their hash all right.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:09 PM

Looks like the circus is in town:

6.50pm:

Reports say two ambulances, blue lights flashing, have entered the rear of the BBC television centre... no further information available just yet.

6.57pm:

Around 25 police, in high visibility jackets, have just entered the television centre.

No information yet as to why.

A source inside the building says Nick Griffin is relaxed and affable prior to the recording.

7.03pm:

Three police riot vans have now entered the rear of the BBC television centre, as well as the two ambulances.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:30 PM

The latest:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/6409622/BNP-protests-descend-into-chaos-at-BBC-Television-Centre.html

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:34 PM

I'm guessing that this may well be his last television appearance :-)

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:35 PM

I learnt from this forum that "Build A Bonfire" is a United Kingdom children's taunt directed at teachers.

[I'm noting that information on this thread in case there are other Americans* or people from other nations who may have read about that rhyme and didn't get what Michael said about it not being all that original.

* Where are the Americans by the way? In my opinion, the issue of fascism is not just a UK issue. I think that Bruce is the only other "American" besides me who posts to Mudcat's anti-fascism threads.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:45 PM

For info — "Build a Bonfire", which, as Azizi implies, I have known since childhood, is sung to 'My Darling Clementine'.

To clarify: I yield to nobody in my hatred for BNP & all its works. I just wish the protestors could have thought of some less banal, and hence intrinsically ineffectual, expression of contempt. If they can't do better than that by way of polemic, it seems to me, they might as well pack up and go home for all the effect they are likely to have on anybody's thoughts or actions.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:00 PM

Azizi, be aware that the centre of politics in USA is well to the right of the centre here.
BNP is a nasty racist organisation, but it mainly campaigns on issues related to immigration.
It is much harder for immigrants to gain entry to your country, I believe. Proposing a policy like yours here would be slated as "fascist" by many on the left.
I note that you do not allow anyone in with diseases like Aids, TB etc.
Here that would not be an issue at all, and we would provide free drugs and treatment for life.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:03 PM

I meant to add also, that you do not allow people in with criminal records, even for minor offences.
No such restriction here.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:10 PM

Keith A - an interesting comment.

How restrictive are the US (and other Western countries) regards immigration compared to UK?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:21 PM

People can register their opposition to racist & fascist groups without comparing different nation's immigration policies.

There is already a Mudcat thread on immigration. This is not that thread.

I-for one-am not focusing on that issue.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:24 PM

Crow Sister,
If you are from the U.K. and want to work in the U.S. the only way is to find an employer first who will give you a contract and sponsor your work visa. U.K. citizens CANNOT currently apply to immigrate and get a green card as the U.K is over their quota for this 5 yr. period

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 03:36 PM

I differ Azizi, the whole Western world needs to be an an accord as to what 'fascism' and 'racism' actually means, and specifically in reference to its impact on governmental policies. In fact I find it interesting that there are not as many posts from the US, on their equivalent social/racial and political issues on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 04:50 PM

are you home yet fred?

how did it go from where you were?

i have been following the progress on the guardian website.
it sounds like it got out of hand at times?

i am really looking forward to watching it in just under an hours time.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 04:57 PM

Jade. Ignore this sick sad shite. I've just got back from the Liverpool demo, not the national one unfortunately, but it was very well attended. What's more, I haven't got a Facebook page, but Guest culd do with getting himself a life, or a good psychiatrist, or maybe both.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:28 PM

I note that you do not allow anyone in with diseases like Aids, TB etc

Before I moved to the UK from USA in 2003, the application (why can't I remember what the residency was prior to indefinite leave to remain which I now have) required me to have a TB test and provide verification that I was not carrying tuberculosis.

I am an American living in UK and I have made some comments against BNP on the threads. And got nasty fake profiles on Facebook created in my name/image for my pains.

I don't say much now, except to show I still am against the BNP. I am just to tired to get drawn into the long running arguments with people who won't even post under a semi real ID.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:33 PM

You would not have been denied entry with those diseases Virginia.
It is just that they are notifiable diseases here.
As I said, you would be entitled to free treatment and drugs for life.
USA would not allow you in if you were a victim of those disease as an immigrant, assylum seeker or anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 05:44 PM

Fair enough Keith. Wonder, if I wanted to go back to US they would let me in with rheumatoid arthritis, since it came on me after I moved to the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 06:43 PM

So, was that it? A shifty looking bugger who couldn't a question straight and spent much of his time trying to smarm Bonnie Greer like some grotesque parody of an Uncle Tom.
To be honest, I think that performance probably lost the BNP a heck of a lot of votes as wavering 'don't knows' finally saw the the Wicked Wizard was really rather a pathetic character.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 06:48 PM

There's a reasonable report on the performance here.
Griffin was really rather underwhelming.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 06:59 PM

A one trick pony which hasn't even perfected that one trick.

It was pure pleasure watching them pick him apart, a fish in a barrel.

If there's anyone out there who still thinks he has what it takes, a brain transplant would be in order.

All these years they've been looking for the missing link between primitive hominids, and homo sapiens, and all the time it's been right here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 07:20 PM

I'm not sure that really is a fair review. Watch for yourselves. It will be on BBC i-player. Greer and the Baroness really got on my nerves. The fact that everyone was attacking Griffin from different perspectives I think lessened the impact, but the meretricious debating points about the precise meaning of "indigenous" were trying, and it may well be that the consolidation of the three parties to say that Griffin was beyond the pale may inspire his core audience who believe that no-one hears their concerns (which may be because they are stupid, but that is a different issue).

The idea that we can lock population down at 65 million while people live longer did not get exploded as the economic suicide that it is, and Straw was I think unfairly restrained by Dimbleby while defending Labour immigration policies and rules - but there again he did not go on the attack as I would have thought wise on grounds (1) because the BNP Eurogains were not the result of immigration and (2) Labour's policy was not disastrous but in fact immigration is falling and there are measures to prevent it rising again.

The Baroness got a really easy ride on her historic homophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 08:02 PM

IF I had a Television I would have been tempted to stay home and watch , but as it was I went to the Folk Club! What I saw in the Guarniad Clip , Griffin didnt seem to score very highly .

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 08:48 PM

I didn't watch it....Whats the point of complaining about it being on, and then being suckered in to watching it. On my return home, however, I did flick between Panorama...hatred on your doorstep, and BNP wives on ITV 3, both deeply unsettling!

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 09:09 PM

Irony or troll?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 09:15 PM

Yes, I'm surprised at the amount of continual airtime that BNP Wives is constantly getting !!
I must admit that Question Time kept me away from the widdly didly pub session tonight (and I saved some money).

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 10:14 PM

I recorded Newsnight this evening on the video, shame i cant comment.
The Brown Broadcasting Corporation Sorry BBC gave the man seventeen seconds so in the uk we could not see it all.
All the rest was Postal Strike and historic holacousts in Europe
Blatant cencorship so Thanks CNN and Gervase for snippets.
The Media Rules then

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: jeddy
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 10:31 PM

richard, it was question time, not newsnight. my other half made the same mistake. i have recorded it for you azizi, it might not be the best quality coz i will have to capture it on the camara first, but if you send me your email, in a PM i will try my best to send it to you soon.

take care are all

love

jade x x x x x

ps is it obvious i am stoned?    LOL x x x

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 11:40 PM

Azizi, you should be able to watch the program here.

A non-event if you ask me, but I thought Bonnie Greer was wonderful. Shame about the rest..

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 02:03 AM

Thanks Jade, for your offer of assistance and Smokey for posting that hyperlink for viewing this program. Unfortunately, the BBC iPlayer doesn't work for people outside pf Great Britain.

However, I saw the entire program on 6 YouTube videos. Here's the link to the first part:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iKfrY9l2kY

The other videos weren't listed consecutively on that page, but they can be found if you look for them.

**

The Question Time format reminded me of a blend between a United States political debate with a panel of news reporters, and a town hall political meeting. I was most impressed by the questions members of the audience asked rather than the comments made by the other panelists. However, I thought that the moderator did a much better job at trying to get answers to the questions-and not just from Nick Griffin than most of the moderators have done the primary and national political debates that occurred last year in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 02:49 AM

I too found Greer and Warnsi a bit tedious. Don't get me wrong, I like Greer, just not in this setting.

Griffin's, ludicrous justification of Islamaphobia because the Koran objectifies women, cast in the light of the historic BNP statement that "rape is not a crime" was telling. Why did no one call him on that?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 03:13 AM

Hi Azizi.
Very interesting to get a US slant on our little islands TV progs! (No, Really!)
Hope you didn't miss the Griffin assertion that the the KKK had a non-violent section!. Almost fell off my sofa!
In fact, The programme will probably have acheived nothing, apart from one thing. Pro BNP people, and Anti BNP people, will just dig into there respective holes even more.
It's the disenfranchised and marginalised people of the UK who, having been left wanting by all the major political parties on such subjects as immigration, etc, That the BNP seem to be targeting.
(Although, having said that. The BNP acquired 2 members of the European Parliament earlier this year...not because more people voted for them ...they didn't, but because all the main parties here in the UK have lost touch with the inhabitants of these islands.
Did have a "Been there, seen that" moment, when Griffin was asked to define "Indigenous Britains"
Substitite "Folkies" for "Britains" and 1000 Mudcat threads hove into view!
But thank you for your interest!
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 03:16 AM

Someone should have asked him why, when he is out and about he is constantly surrounded by BNP thugs.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Smedley
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 03:40 AM

To me, Griffin came across as stupid, self-contradictory, bigoted, pernicious, petty, and waaaaaaaaaay out of his depth.

But then that's what I always assumed he is. In other words, nothing I saw changed my views.

Listening late last night & this morning to callerts and comments to other TV and radio shows, however, another discourse in emerging: that he was 'bullied, 'ganged up on', 'set up', and that the rest of the panel and the majority of the audience were 'unrepresentative'.

These views are coming, I would imagine, either from entrenched BNP sympathisers or from others at the right-wing end of the spectrum. They are seeing him as a victim.

All in all, the programme worked to confirm people's pre-existing views.

I always knew he was a slug, now I have some more evidence. But I have grave doubts as to whether anyone who previously supported him, or was thinking of doing so, had their ideas budged one inch.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 03:42 AM

I thought Greer and Warnsi came over as very credible and dignified. I especially liked the moment when Greer invited "Dick" Griffin to come and read the books on British history that she had put aside for him at The British Museum. She said he needed to read them. The poor woman hd to sit beside Griffin...... you could see her skin crawl when he touched her.

You have to admire Warnsi as well, I thought she was the perfect foil for Griffin given her background. She dismissed him and his arguments with just the right amount of scorn. I'm no fan of the Tories but I had to admire her.

Griffin himself came over as a unprincipled, one dimensional buffoon who was quite happy to try and re-write his own history ..... and everyone elses. I really don't think he gained anything from this TV appearance.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:01 AM

I think it is outrageous that the BBC should invite a man as boring as Jack Straw on it's show.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:14 AM

I wonder...(hopefully), how many of the protesters in London yesterday actually voted in the last Council/European elections here in the UK?
Of course I hate the BNP and all it stands for, but, we live in a democracy in the UK...so, come on people...vote for somebody. anybody!!! No it's not as much fun as being dragged out of a Television reception centre, but....It's the only way to go. Vote...!

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Jean Morrison
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:16 AM

Greer owns the finest collection of Robertson's metal badges in Britain. She has them on display in the British museum.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Jenny brampton
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:32 AM

Jade: '
ps is it obvious i am stoned?    LOL x x x ' is that funny? Is that something to be proud of?
JB

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:43 AM

Now we know you are a BNP troll Jean.

Frankly, I thought Greer's two cracks - one (repeatedly) about Griffin needing to read books or learn things, and the other about him having only a 2:2 degree (which I kind of like, since I have two) were feeble school debate stuff.

Straw I thought displayed that he was well informed and made some very powerful arguments, but was not very effective on the Labour immigration position - partly thanks to Dimbleby running interference.

Azizi, Dimbleby (the chairman) has been a flagship political commentator for the BBC for about 40 years and a major part of the delight of Question Time is that he puts all the panellists even-handedly on the spot, which this time he didn't. He had quite a pop at Griffin and Straw, a very minor dig at the Baroness and the Lib-dem, and appeared to let Greer do exactly as she pleased.

But overall although as I presaged the "the establishment ganged up on us" will be a chant from the BNP, Griffin probably undermined himself with anyone who was not already sucked into his doctrines of hate.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:49 AM

I though Straw was just about OK but missed a few glaring points that he should have made. Including the key point that immigration policy should have nothing to do with race. It was left to Azizi to make this point, Jack should have got in there first, he had the opportunity.

There was a Lib Dem on as well? Didn't notice!

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 04:54 AM

Silly remark about the Lib Dem, Banji. He was actually far the most fluent & cogent speaker. I am not a Lib Dem & think it absurd they are even regarded as a 'major party', as they have as much chance of ever forming a govt, or even holding a genuine balance, as of swimming the Atlantic. But Huhne was still the best of them last night, so don't be petty and fatuous.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:05 AM

MtheGM. As always these things are subjective. I have to say that to my mind Azizi was by far the most impressive on the night..... and I'm along way from being a Tory supporter.

I heard no fresh thinking from Huhne and I thought his presentation was poor. I am struggling to remember any significant input he had into the debate.

Agree my remark was a little facetious, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:09 AM

Azizi? I think you must mean Warsi. Azizi is our friend from Pittsburgh who contributes so much to these forums. Are you a bit confused?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 05:12 AM

Just Friday.... yes clearly confused! Thank you for the correction, and sorry Azizi!

Doesn't negate my point though.