A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:34 PM

Roger you have been one of the stronger voices here and I have always been glad to hear your words. I have been away a ton the last year and a half but still feel very close to many here . I hope to meet you one of these old days . THanks for all your input . Yours Guy

---

Back in the old days, we didn't have a technical means of closing threads, but this thread was supposed to be closed. You may continue this discussion in another thread, but this particular thread is closed - although I'm not going to bother to delete the recent messages.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,m
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:55 PM

The act of forgiving is something we owe ourselves. Nursing a hatred or dislike leads nowhere. Why do we forgive greater sins and get hung up on littler ones?

Seems we got that backwards. IMO.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:30 PM

"All I am saying, is give peace a chance."

And ease up on the peddle, brother John9.

Jerry

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,m
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:52 PM

Then how will we know we were ever here? In decades, a civilization in space will receive these words that have been hither-to-now posted and have but half a story. Deleting this could lead to intergalactic strife.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:34 PM

"This thread is closed. Any messages posted to it after this will be deleted."

That was on 24 Jul 99 - so I assume all the "revival posts" will shortly vanish anyway.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,m
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:08 PM

This is getting to be like the peace I envisioned.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:05 PM

The thread was revived in an attempt to embarass The Shambles, and by a person who is not a memeber of his fan club. I think on the whole that his cunning plot has backfired.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:35 PM

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" h eremarked, heaving a brick.

(Incidentally, if anyone else is reading this, that last remark by whoever-it-is was not actually true. More often than not when I've been posting in a thread along with The Shambles, we've been more or less in agreement. Not surprisingly, since we've exchanged tapes and sung together and have got on very well when we've met. We share some bees in our bonnet, just not this one.)

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,m
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:32 PM

Not quite the peace I had envisioned . . .

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow.
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:29 PM

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:25 PM

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Some of us have long since noticed you are often first in line when it comes to Shambles, McGrath.

And a warm goodbye to you.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:18 PM

Something went wrong there. Perhaps I pushed the delete button or something instead of the submit. (Those question marks were me too.)

Haranguing must means something else wherever it is you live, Sigh. My "harangue" consisted of a friendly suggestion to The Shambles that he should perhaps apply that quote to homself - Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change...

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:13 PM

??

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow (temoprarily uncookied)
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:01 PM

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Amos
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 04:29 PM

One can indeed...and persevere. Thanks.

A

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,m
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 04:20 PM

I have had the misfortune to take things in the worst way possible. It's something I'm learning to deal with I hope. And I seem to be getting better at it as the months go on. However, that said, it's time for a little peace to break out. Really.

Unlike Jerry, I have often lashed out when walking away would have been the right thing to do. That is wrong. Ya never know when people have had the worst day of their life, or if they carry aburden so heavy it weighs on thier very soul.

Realizing what I did doesn't excuse my own childish behaviour, but maybe saying it will allow me to move on from a limbo located between hell and purgatory. One can but hope.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 03:58 PM

John from Hull posted a very nasty personal attack thread against Shambles this a.m. which was quickly deleted. Others like McGrath have been haranguing him too. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this thread refresh is another instance of a member wreaking vengeance.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:53 PM

I don't know who refreshed this, but I appreciate it. It's not pleasant reading at times, and the most unpleasant things are between the lines. I've only been in here a couple of years now, and I've seen Mudcat have its ups and downs. Until recently, I didn't see it centered so much around one person. Not that I think the problem is one person. In my mind, anyone who accepts the actions of a person who is intentionally trying to offend, and hurt someone else is part of the problem. If nothing else, I hope that recent discussions have caused us all to re-examine how we conduct ourselves in here. I say "us all" because there have been two occasions when I got fed up with someone in here (in both cases, people I consider friends) and resorted to the easiest form of humor... sarcasm. I wasn't obscene, but I went for the easy cheap shot and felt badly about it afterward. In both instances, I PMd the person and appoligized (how in the world do you spell apologized?) Hopefully those incidents are left behind.

There are some in here who seem to think civility is a four letter word. Thank God (or whoever you prefer thanking) there are only a small handful.

Onward

Jerry

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Melani
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:48 PM

Just to add a music reference--one of my favorite statements about "things were better in the good old days" is a song called "When This Old Hat Was New." It's the usual "this is awful, and that is awful and the other thing is awful..." The chorus goes, "It was not so when Bess did reign, and this old hat was new." It dates from the time of James I.

So what else is new?

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:37 PM

I doubt it... it was likely just goof-off surfing mudcat loaded again...

Maybe it's time to have this thread moved to the BS section... Where if the 'rules' had been in place when it was started, it woulda ended up in the first place...

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:33 PM

The thread refresh may not have had to do directly with you, Shambles. There have been many people looking back to "the good old days" when everything was better. It could have been a reference to that. We hear repeatedly that there were no problems before. So, maybe it was about that. That's what I thought when I first saw the dates of all but the last three posts.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 07:53 AM

The reasons for refreshing this thread may be less than positive, however, one can only hope that something more positive results from it. This thread shows that the only course open to you, when you get to the point that you have tried your best to ensure that our forum is as good as it can be and it still not to your personal taste, is to remove yourself from it.

Rather than accept this reality, sadly, many still seem to think and encourage the idea that our forum can be changed to reflect their personal tastes by encouraging the removal of the contributons of others, that are not to their personal tastes. There were many nice things said in this thread, and it was nice to read them again, including the following - Goodbye, Roger. I hope you come back. You're a good guy.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Can we (meaning you) rename a thread?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14-Aug-04 - 02:30 AM

Wesley S came up with the following [posted in the latest 'hug and prayer complaint thread]- it says more in a few lines than I can ever manage, in my long-winded way.

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others

As it was not a suggestion of mine, is there any chance of you putting this wonderful common sense into the FAQ and in the headings of the various forums? [crediting Wesley S of course]

The starting point is setting the example that accepts that none of us here really have any control over the posts and ideas of others - only ourselves. That is something I would have thought that the Joe Offer I first came across and greatly respected in the forum, accepted and set the best example in.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:43 AM

bye bye.

Subject: This thread is closed. Thanks.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 02:47 PM

I dunno. I guess I'd say that Art is the quintessential Mudcatter, the one we all should emulate.

That being said, I would also like to say that many of us are licking our wounds from a fairly serious flame war - more serious because we thought that the 'Cat was immune from such unpleasantry. Well, I guess we weren't. I know we all have a lot more to say on this subject, but maybe it's better if we just don't say it. Please don't post any more messages to this or any of the other threads that were part of this whole mess. Try to discuss things privately if you must. If there is a compelling need to analyze all this in public, please wait a few days until the air clears, and then start a new thread. I think it's better to just let the matter die.
Now, Art, will you go out into the other threads and tell us some jokes and stories? We've had a nice, toasty campfire going for 24 yours already.

This thread is closed. Any messages posted to it after this will be deleted.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Chet W.
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 02:38 PM

The last few posts here reflect exactly what I've been pondering during my morning chores. It seems like a lot of my friends don't like to think about or know about or get excited about anything new that's different or important, politically or otherwise. I guess it's a matter of comfort and, well, laziness, but how many times have I tried to discuss a big idea or play some new interesting (to me anyway) music to friends that seem to at least hold the same basic values as I do, and they're not interested. They've retired from novelty. Their opinions are not subject to change, so they don't enjoy a good argument. I wonder if we're all just jaded from modern culture (why won't they let JFK jr. die in peace, with his family around him?). I really don't know what it is. But I do notice that the times when I get lazy about politics or social issues or ethics or whatever, my creativity level goes down with it.

Would appreciate any thoughts, Chet

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Night Owl
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 02:36 PM

Thank you LEJ...for the above post AND the campfire!!

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: LEJ
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 02:15 PM

Mick and Mark, you guys are right on the money with your comments. Art, anybody who doesn't see the essential common sense and good humor in your posts is missing the boat, whether you are talking about Folk music OR politics.

Can we reach a point where we are able to integrate camaraderie and music? Can we find threads where the choice is not simply between "Seeks Clarification of Second Verse of Barbara Allen" and "BS/ What are Mudcatters Middle Names"? I think we are reaching the point. Take a look at the "Mudcat Campfire". A natural setting was created that was conducive to conversation, humor, story telling, AND traditional music. Fans of all of these Mudcat genres would benefit by taking a seat by the fire.

There will always be a need for providing lyrics, song titles, etc. But for those who would stick around this forum and be here to answer, I believe other needs must be met.

LEJ

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 01:01 PM

Art,

Just to add my two cents to what everyone else is saying, please don't start denying us the benefit of your thoughts and opinions on politics and life (and the universe and everything). Many if not most of the songs in the DT data base are political in some way. I'd guess a great many of us got interested in folk music precisely because we found a poetic expression of our own socio-political beliefs. It was largely from that starting point many years back that I began to discover the simple beauty, and honest expression in all the music everyone here loves.

I've always regarded you as one of our foremost interpreters of the music and one of the most insightful. Don't be put off by cranks and trouble makers. I've heard folks say "It takes all kinds to make a world" but I have a suspicion that there are some kinds it just doesn't take. I saw a sign once that said something like "Non carborundum illegitimi" (Don't let the bastards wear you down), and I offer that advice to you and everyone here.

- Mark

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 11:37 AM

Art,

I am going to paraphrase you on this. I love ya to death, my friend, but you are wrong on this one. If the thread is political, controversial, out there......whatever, and you are not comfortable, just don't go there. I am shifting my focus back to the music as well, but if a BS thread comes up that I like, I will jump in, and once more tilt at the windmill of civil discourse on controversial subjects. If folks don't want to participate, God bless 'em and the thread will die.

Your free spirited commentary is as much a part of what makes the Mudcat special as anything. Stifle it and you will hurt this place. We have all learned a lesson from the past few weeks, but that doesn't mean that we change the essence of this place. My feeling on those that have left is that if they left because of lack interest, God bless 'em. If they left because of mean (as opposed to spirited debate) comments then shame on us for allowing it. But if they left because they don't like what folks are discussing, in threads that they didn't even have to go into, then they are selfish control types that really don't care much about this community. Otherwise they would not attempt to hurt it by their leaving. MHO.

You, Mr. Thieme are one of the most important people here because you are you. Stay the course. I truly have come to love you as a close friend. These comments are intended to be reflective of that.

Mick

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 11:27 AM

Art, I hope you'll continue to share your humor, stories and opinions. You're a loved and respected member of this cyber-community. For me, the history and humor of the people who make the music is an important part. How many folk singers have you heard that don't talk at least as much as they sing? Someone in a public speaking venue once said "I don't feel uncomfortable making you uncomfortable." Well, I don't resent feeling uncomfortable sometimes. The best friends I have and the greatest performers I've heard make me think. I can't live in a vaccuum where my beliefs are never challenged because others don't want to rock the boat. The music we sing is about history and politics and people - it's more than just nice sounds. Discussions can get to the point where everyone's had their say and their just butting heads, at which time it's appropriate to drop it. I'm not upset by debate, but by those who attack people rather than ideas.

With that said, I understand not everybody feels the way I do, and some people may be sick of argument and the responsibility of always being the lone dissenting voice. My purpose in writing this message is not to tell you or anyone else what they should or shouldn't write about, read or like, and not to revive old arguments - it's to let you know I've enjoyed reading your opinions and will welcome your future contributions - controversial or otherwise.

With apology for long-windedness - Jeri

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 10:40 AM

Art, this is crazy. Nobody could take anything you say seriously. ...Hmm, that didn't come out right.
Anyway, you get the drift: you should say what you damn well like. You are a creative spirit. If you start to stifle yourself you will eventually say what the hell is the point of being here. It's a question of generosity of soul: anyone who reads what you say with any sense in their heads can tell that you have this in the tone of what you say. Sure cyberspace is different, you have to signal a bit more carefully the tones and ironies, but it is a learning process for everyone. Backing off from that is crazy.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 10:26 AM

Shambles and all,

Please, try to keep in mind that 1/3 of the folks out there are against everything all the time. Sometimes more & sometimes less. That's how we get positive and negative results from elections.(Two sides of the same coin---that old paradox again). It's why we have a two party system where the entrance of a third party into the mix puts is like tossing a screwdriver into the gear box. It also assures us of very vocal majorities and very vocal minorities---as well as media. Boy, it sure is a noisy landscape. That also means the process leads to compromise that often a bunch of the people think is bogus. I never could've withstood what Bill Clinton has gone through recently. That said, I never could've stood what Richard Nixon went through either. (That does not mean I condone any of it!)

I too am out o' here for political talk of any kind from now on. The infamous c....m thread was instigated by me to point out the error of going in the direction of the BS threads. I was starting something I was sure would be taken as tongue-in-cheek. Ironically, that seemed to almost be the beginning of the decline until we now seem to be at the point where the mule (me at least) has seen the elephant. After I joined into the verbal frays, (if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em) my pronouncements on the sanctity of trad music must've caused some good people much distress. For that I am truly sorry. If my humor was sometimes overboard (blurted out 'cause it was funny to me) try to realize it was intended to just be a funny break from the norm---a way to insert comic RELIEF. I used to do it in my shows to defuse the negative effects of several people meeting their demise in most of my best songs---the ones I really wanted/needed to show people. But in cyberspace, things just don't seem to make it from the transporter pad to the surface without being mutated in meaning. Things that are stated as simple known facts by the writer are---probably 1/3 of the time---viewed as strident challenges and value judgments by the readers of this forum. It took way too long for me to realize the truth of this.

I plan to stick to what I know best---trad folksongs of the USA and lyrics to songs I want people to know about.

Art

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From:
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 08:29 AM

I am sorry to see you go Shambles. I haven't been reading a lot of threads lately and the ones I have read are still good. Why don't you lurk for a while and just read the threads that look "musical". You might recapture some of your old "mudcat feeling"

Murray

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 03:52 PM

Shambles,

I'm sorry to see you go, too. As Ferrara says, "you are one of the people in my mind that make up my Mudcat". Please retreat and regroup and drop by now and then. (That's a tricky subterfuge on my part, because I know that if you do that you will get caught up again in the Mudcat community - I bet you won't be able to resist posting just one little message here and there, and eventually you'll probably be back here in spirit again)

Love Helen

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 01:52 PM

Atta boy, Mudjack.

Mick

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Mudjack
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 12:44 PM

Come back Shambles, Come back Sham...
Wipe the tears from me eyes
Come back Shambles, wipe the tears from me eyes.
With all the flares of cybertempers, I have to question why is we have to get in a frenzy over what some one says when they cross over the line. Our sensitivity to such issues is exactly what the shit disturber is looking for, so what do we do? Jump right into the fire with the jerk and take issue when we know the best way to deal with it is to ignore it and let it pass. Come on Shambles, we're better than that. Come back and help get us on track.
After all this, I have decided when its my time to vacate the primises, I'll just be gone without any announcements as I'll close the door lightly so when I come back to look in, I can do it without a lot of hoopla.I admit I have this adiction to looking in on the cafe and resisting a post is impossible, truth is my time here is time I should be spending on honeydo's. That's why I'm here.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Reta
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 12:08 PM

Hello my dear friend;

Roger, do not leave the Mudcat. Everyone has already told you why you should stay and how to handle the hostile threads so I won't bother to go into that side of the fray. What I do want to say is this, when we give up and leave we are letting Dick, Susan, and Max down and casting all the hard work they have put into this wonderful site aside as if it counts for naught. Please don't do that to them and so many others who work so hard to help all of us who enjoy the 'Cat so much. I have been gone for a few weeks and was so dismayed at what has happened that I considered, (but only for a second or two,) leaving also. Why cut off my nose to spite my face? Stay Roger, the Mudcat needs you. I hope all will return, we are family.

Love and blessings to all. It's nice to be back. Reta

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Philippa
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 06:48 AM

I wonder why the discussions of Kosovo and gun control didn't provoke so much negative reaction as the Irish controversy?

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Bill in Alabama
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 06:42 AM

Shambles-- Sorry to see you go, but I can certainly understand your decision. Hope to see you back; soon or late-- I hope to see you back.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Tucker
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 01:18 AM

I can understand Paul's feelings, the politics got to me too. My main attraction here was music and I must admit I indulged in Politics, after all it is part of life. I want to return, to share musical experience with my friends here. After all, I have liberal and conservative friends in my society and we don't eat each other (sic. Anyway, I am coming back but I am leaving politics on this side of the keyboard. Yeah it is very much part of music but for the most part we can tread lightly there. I found out that what we take lightly ie: the IRA and the songs are not taken so lightly by those trying to establish peace in Ireland. At any rate, when we meet, lets lift a glass, sing a song and enjoy each other's company. I like you all and we have music in common. Tucker

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Dan
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:30 PM

Hey, Shambles, what did the son-of-a-bitch say?

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Chet W.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:17 PM

I have to say, too, that I've felt like it a few times myself, and did leave to varying degrees from time to time. But there's no place else like this. It has to be saved and it has to keep together. We had one person who would neither be reconciled with or made to feel unwelcome enough that he would go. Maybe he had to be dismissed. But, damn, this is such a decent bunch of people. Even bitter disagreements usually end up in a positive way. Let's not change our ways out of fear. My wife, who suffered under a communist government for much of her life, has been trying to teach me that you don't let the bad ones control your life, and that you do have that choice. Shambles, I hope you get over what hurt you, have a few drinks on us and thoughts about us, and come back.

I feel like your friend, Chet W.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: LEJ
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:17 PM

Skarpi... we are regrouping at the Mudcat Tavern. Come in, have a Guinness, and sing a song with us.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:09 PM

I am sad to sea all this discussion and all I sea at the moment is a very large dark cloud over mudcat, but I hope that goes away and well see the light and all the good things in all mudcatters, this is bad and I am not feeling very well about this.

May god be with you all, skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Ferrara
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:02 PM

Oh, Shambles, Noooo!!!! - I haven't been around lately but it's because I've been really under the weather. Bill told me there were some pretty rough things happening. But I'll miss you!!! -- Even if I'm not posting or even reading threads, you're one of the people that in my mind make up "my Mudcat". -- And I hope you'll be back, and I hope you'll be back soon.

Once again, skarpi, you've found beautiful words:

"shambles, be strong and may god be with you everyday, all the best" - Rita Ferrara

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:54 PM

Shambles, I too am sorry to see you go. Yours were among those contributions which made me stay after I first came to find the answer to a question, and then stayed to see if there was anything I could do in return. One of those who made me feel at home on the Mudcat, who made me feel it was worth staying here when things were a little shaky. Let the light shine (even if it's only on the tail of an insect).

Penny

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: bbelle
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:34 PM

Sham ... I'm feeling very sad and misty-eyed ... I have thought so often of late that I would delete Mudcat out of my Favorites folder, but it's because of people like you that I stay. I, too, did not enter your Moving On thread, because I thought it had to do with the songs. The outpourings of warmth and well-wishes for my birthday reminded me what the Mudcat was all about. So ... I won't insult you by begging you to stay ... but hope you will reconsider ... moonchild

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:31 PM

I do not know or understand what has going on the mudcat lately becouse I had some holydays, I sence something went wrong.

shambles please stay on the mudcat, but if you go I hope you come back very soon. shambles, be strong and may god be with you everyday, all the best skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:19 PM

Sham, sorry to see you go. But I'd be sorry to see anyone go, even (if I guess right) the one about whom Max haas taken action. I have experienced a spikiness from you from time to time, and wondered why. But you were well informed, and sometimes witty too. The one who has offended (must they be a non-person now, too?) also seemed to me to be well informed, and sometimes witty, although sometimes more outrightly provocative for reasons I could not fathom. Anyone, surely, would be missed, and also they will miss the information and help more to be found here, I think, than anywhere else. I suspect most who absent themselves will pop back for a peek from time to time, and eventually present themselves again, even if under a new name. Let's hope so.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:12 PM

I was walking around town today thinking about the people I was in class with growing up and about how they were an interesting sampling of different people. There were kids who were bullies and kids who were patsies, kids who did their homework everyday and kids who spent every evening in detention. Some kids got smacked by the teacher and some kids who kissed the hem of her dress. There were cliques and clacks. People are different, of course. What we had in common was being in that class.

What we at Mudcat have in common is music... folk music to be more specific. Religion, politics, sex... just to name a few... are matters which separate people and make them individuals... sometimes heroic... sometimes ugly. Isn't it better just to keep the talk to music? That is our common bond!

All the best, Dan