A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.

Subject: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 08:17 AM

This Move on down the line was intended to be my last posting on the 'Forum'. It is difficult to find the right way to say goodbye to the The Mudcat and the many friends I have made here. For there appears to be more criticism given to those explaining their reasons why they feel they can not stay, than is given to those who are directly responsible for those people leaving?

The fact that no one appeared to notice it, says a lot about the current climate of The Mudcat. Instead of lyrics added maybe it should have been B/S, or even 'positive thread creep', the latest Mudcat euphemism for crass rudeness. This 'positive thread creep', I think was the 'straw that broke the camel's back'.

For as Dick's thread pointed out, these measures are unnecessary, for here, unlike in real life, if you ignore things (and threads) you don't like, they will go away.....end of problem.

I also thought that is more polite to say goodbye and thank you for sharing with me a lot of thought, information and honest good fun.

Also to provoke a little thought. For I and I suspect others who have left, also do so with a heavy heart. This place was special to me because I thought it was big enough and welcoming enough for ALL.

I intend to look in from time to time and will hopefully, return if or when I feel that welcome is again there for all.

LOVE AND PEACE: Roger Gall.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Allan C.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 08:31 AM

Hate to see you go, buddy. I have enjoyed your posts: your humor, your sense of conviction, musical knowledge, etc.. I didn't ever click on your farewell song because I mistook it for "Buddy Better Get On Down The Line" for which I already know the words. I won't argue with you. I can see your point(s) quite well. I, too, was starting to have second thoughts about the direction this forum was starting to go. But my decision was to "stick it out" and to possibly even be a part of the change back to the positive. I am glad you will still stop by from time to time. Thanks for having been here. I will miss you.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From:
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 08:31 AM

Please, Roger, don't leave, this is the first time a posting has actually made me cry, and I'm at work!!! There have been some nasty and vicious things said, that is true, and people have given the words a lot of credence, far more, in fact to them than to the warm, funny, barmy posts that outnumber them hundreds to one. It is unlikely that I will ever meet you or any other Mudcatter, but I was just getting to know your cyberpersona so well, and now you are going to leave me, and I never said anything nasty. Love, Bron.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 08:38 AM

Shambles,

I have not had the time to read every thread for some time now, so I skipped the "Move on Down the Line" thread. I figured it was about the song done by the Kingston Trio "Buddy, better move on down the line."

It saddens me every time someone decides to leave because they feel harrassed or unwelcome.

It certainly has been an unpleasant time for many on the Mudcat recently, and that saddens me as well. When I read the thread on "Thread courtesy", it helped me to realize that the 'Cat can survive controversy.

There are several people whose emotions on certain issues lead to less than well reasoned discussion. I also note that there are some who seem a strong need to make their point again and again as if to try and convince others of their points of view. I feel I slid in that direction on the "gun threads" a few months back.

If I catch myself, I pull back and take a breather. I cannot change a person's thoughts. I may have some influence, but if that doesn't work at first, repetition does not improve my chances of success.

I would also note that each and everyone of us who has slipped beyond the bounds of reasoned discussion have also contributed mightily to the positive forces on the "Cat and so I welcome them as members.

I do hope you will come back. You have contributed several worthy songs to the Mudcat and you have been generous with your knowledge and opinions as well.

As a last note, you will not find me discussing the politics of "the troubles" on these threads. Firstly, because I am right ignorant of the issues. Secondly, if I was knowledgeable I still would not because it is inflammatory. The beliefs are firmly held and have been so for a long time.

Points may be offered to explain a song, but beyond that I think we get too far from the soul of the Mudcat.

I would suggest you may wish to take the same approach.

May your rest away from the 'Cat restore you and may you return soon.

Love,

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: j0_77
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:01 AM

Well - darn ! Now I have to do a Whois and research the Internet to find out where I read more 'Shambles' grrrrrr

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: alison
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:03 AM

Hi roger,

I hope you change your mind... we've lost too many people in the last week or so. Come on over to "Mudcat Tavern" it's getting friendly again........

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:27 AM

Roger, I'm sorry you leave too. I dearly hope when you sneak back in a couple of days, weeks, months, Mudcat'll be in such spirit that you'll come back gladly.

There have been too many partings lately: Bruce O., Martin Ryan, Roger Gall. And if you read closely you'll see that others are contemplating this move as well (I remember Alice writing something to that effect). And there are others who just have left without saying a word (I don't mention names for they might have had different reasons). People they are who have helped to make Mudcat what it once was with a sound musical knowledge. If we do not rethink (and act accordingly) others will go too. Let's make Mudcat a place Roger would like to rejoin then we'll get Martin and Bruce back too, I hope.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Angus McSweeney
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:41 AM

I was a regular Mudcatter about 2 years ago and then again about a year ago. (I regularly go on hiatus for various reasons). And I have to admit that I was a little dismayed by what I found when I returned about two weeks ago. I haven't seen the really damaging threads - just their echo's. I intend to use this discussion forum as I believe it's intended - I scan down the subjects, click on the ones that interest me, answer the query if possible and move on. However, I have been involved in the past with trying to help bring a sense of community to this fascinating group - the original Fantasy Folk Circle threads pulled in over 200 responses (we had to start a new thread because, in those days it just took to long for the threads to post with so many responses attached). And we started a "musician humor" thread that allowed for some gentle rib poking at various instrumentalists (pity the poor banjo players!) So where am I going with this? We are in a large discussion with people coming in and out of the door all the time. Groups are assembled all around the hall - some are talking about early American folk music, some...well, you get the point. I visit the groups that interest me and I stay true to myself. Politics? Hmmm. I don't know why we want to bring that up. In the folk circle that I attend I would say most participants are left leaning folk like myself, but the songs stand for themselves. I cringe when someone chooses to make a spoken political point because 1) this is not a political circle, and 2) somone might respond. Don't get me wrong...I'm very politically minded, strong opinions, very verbal, and I love a rock'em sock'em politcal fight. But not in a folk circle and not on a folk and blues discussion forum. So what's to do? For me, it's simple. If it's at a folk circle I join in on the song and remain silent to the spoken editorial (even if I agree completely and strongly!) If it's a thread, I simply leave it alone and go to another thread.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:52 AM

Oh, Shambles, not you, too! You have given so much to this forum, and like the others above I don't check every thread so didn't see your words in Move on down the line. I hope you change your mind; you give so much to this place and I'm sorry that lately you haven't received in kind. Blessings on the journey, but consider staying on!
Allison

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: reluctant to put my name
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:54 AM

I am one of those who have been absent. I hope those who have changed the Mudcat from what it was into what it is are happy. I don't think it was ever intended to be a place where you can talk about everything except music and excuse it by calling it a sense of community. All you have done is make it uncomfortable for those who came for the music.

As to why I do not put my name, just look at what has happened to those who do, trashed by the ones who think they are free to deride those who do not agree with their point of view. I think you are not the majority, just the most vocal.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:55 AM

Shambles/Roger, I haven't been here at Mudcat very long, and I was just getting to know you. I've seen you around Usenet and have always respected your gentlemanly words. I'm sorry you find it too uncomfortable to remain here (for now, I hope) because I'll miss you and your voice of calm reason and conscience. I'm sorry that the the friendships you've made and the fun you've had don't outweigh the negativity.

Perhaps some of us (yeah, me too) are guilty of being a bit defensive when it comes to Mudcat. It's a wonderful place, but I think we want to see it as perfect. When someone says something negative, we sometimes see it as a threat rather than constructive criticism. We jump right in and to defend our "homeland" and ideals instead of allowing the critics to help us make it better. We take sides. We make mountains out of molehills.

Jeri

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:58 AM

And that is the proper response, Angus's that is. If one does not want to be a part of political discussion, then one should move on to the threads that are of interest. I am liable to alienate some with this comment, but it seems to me to be very selfish to leave such a wonderful place because you don't approve of some threads. Just stay with the ones you do enjoy and leave those that enjoy the debate to their's. It seems to me a little bit like stomping ones feet and storming off.

There is a distinction that I would make. This is different from the fella (you all know who I mean, won't say the name) that insists on taking his nastiness to the personal level and inflicts it in all threads. His attacks are personal and he makes it impossible to avoid him. If that is what was happening then I would leave. But instead of making it a show, I would just send personal letters to those that I were close to, explaining my decision instead of making a public display. I would probably do an email to Dick, Susan and Max, as well.

Hate to see you leave, Sham. I would have expected you to stay and promote and defend your views.

Mick

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 10:08 AM

Shambs, I, too, missed your other thread. I now I am one of those whom you refer to as expressing too much in BS, etc. There have been plenty of discussions about politics creeping into folk music threads and the like.

Still and all, I have ALWAYS enjoyed your posts, even when we couldn't see eye-to-eye and I really hate to see you go. from what I've seen in the old threads, the Mudcat goes in cycles, much like life. In the 7 months I've been ehre I've seen it go from almost all music, to all BS, to a mix. I know the past week has been really difficult. I've almost dropped out, too, but I will not give up the wonderful friends and music just because of one or two nasty postings.

Your songs are always thought-provoking and heartfelt. I hope you'll come back. You will be sorely missed, for I've always looked forward to a thread with "Shambles" listed as a poster.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 10:41 AM

I'm going to miss you as well, old son. Keep out th'oss road, and do look in again from time to time.

Steve

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: reluctant to use my name
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 10:41 AM

I did not intend to respond again, but I have to say this. Angus, I am sorry I made the unfortunate choice of words, sense of community. I must have unconciously picked the phrase up from you. I was referring to an earlier thread that someone used that phrase or something like it to say it was OK to bring up any topic they chose. In no way was I directing that statement at you.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Angus McSweeney
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 10:48 AM

I never gave it a second thought. Hang in there, you WILL feel comfortable to use your name again.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Cara
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 11:24 AM

I have been avoiding the fray here for te past week or so, but I am alarmed by the exits of so many from our ranks. Shambles, I am terribly sorry to see you go and hope that you'll reconsider sooner rather than later. Your thoughtful presence will be deeply missed.

As for the rest, I think it's shameful that we've come to a place where we're even considering censoring the forum (beyond what Joe and others already do with spam, etc). We are all in charge of what this forum is, and of what it becomes. Those of you who want to see more music threads, start the threads yourselves and your like-minded fellow Catters will join right in. If you want it, make it happen. And although it's been said many times, many ways, if you don't like the content of a thread, DON'T CONTRIBUTE. It really is that simple. But others have the right to start whatever thread they wish, until Max says differently. As has been noted elsewhere, the thing about free speech is that sooner or later someone will say something you don't like. All of us must accept that, and get on with it.

As for the flaming, which has been horrible to witness, we really do just have to ignore it and hope it goes away. That thing your mama told you about making bullies go away by refusing to act scared holds true here as well; you give people power by reacting to them. Take away the reaction, take away the power. That's hard here, because to leave nastiness unchallenged is counterintuitive; we want to defend ourselves, and our friends, and our forum. Or to extend the olive branch, when possible. But this community shouldn't be all-inclusive, necessarily; we have the right to exclude people when their bad energy outweighs their good.

I don't believe that we need to re-configure the Cat, or twist ourselves inside out wondering why some are unhappy. Just disengage from the flaming, stay away from the politics threads if they're giving you ulcers, and post threads on the topics that you want to discuss instead of feeling all bitter that no one else is. Some people are never going to see eye to eye; they can civilly agree to disagree on the threads, and take the personal attacks to the personal messages or face the censure of the group. That's cenSURE, as opposed to cenSOR. Now is the time to keep on keepin' on. This place needs to remain the best forum on the net. We will weather this storm.

Love to you all,

Cara

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The
From: annamill
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 11:32 AM

Shambles/Rog,

I haven't been following all the threads to closely evidently, because I'm not sure what could have happened that caused one of our best contributers to leave us. I've only been here a short time, but in that time, you are one of the people I've come to love and to expect great input from.

Can you clarfy why you are leaving when we need you even more? Too much BS? Too much contention? Nastiness?

Before you go, please try to explain?

I you choose not to, and just leave, then my love goes with you and I hope you feel you can come back. Soon.

If Shambles has already left, can anyone else explain?

annap

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 11:49 AM

Cara:

I think you said it well. I am very new to this forum and have made no meaningful verbal contribution to it, but have throughly enjoyed being here. I simply ignore the threads that I am not interested in and see no point in contributing to those that will, no doubt, hurt or upset others.

I do feel perhaps too much attention has been paid to one individual who appears to get "his/her" kicks from stirring the pot. Individuals of this sort thrive on dissension. If there is none, they creep slowly away into the night.

DougR

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: arkie
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 11:52 AM

Roger: I do not have much time for mudcat and when I visit tend to check on the ones related directly to music. Basically, I ignore the serious threads and the banter. Could not help check on this one, however. You have provided much in the way of information and insight. Thanks for that. Hope you will reconsider. Hate to see you and the others pulling out. It will certainly be Mudcat's loss.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: SueH
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 11:55 AM

Dear Roger

I shall be very sorry to see you go - I would like to see more people on the Mudcat from this side of the Atlantic.

I had thought things were starting to improve over the last few days....I suppose it's a case of just waiting to see.

Good luck anyway - if you're ever in Hertfordshire, drop in to the club (well, if it's the right day, of course!)

Sue

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 12:35 PM

Cara, that's the best description I've read! Says it all! Thank you, kat

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Paul G.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 12:36 PM

Perhaps I'm too much the cynic, or (and I would prefer the term) just a pragmatist. I find that people are going to behave like people wherever you encounter them, even here. We all deal with life's discomforts (including/especially the human ones) on a daily basis. We ignore them, we walk around them, we occassionaly confront them, but we can't exit the planet (reasonably) in order to avoid them. When I open a thread and find the content distasteful or uninteresting...even hurtful, I step out and into one that provides a more comfortable feeling. Perhaps I'll even start a diversionary thread -- one to stir positive, generally music focused commentary, in order to provide sanctuary from the nonsence...Sorry to see Shambles go, but there are alternatives to bailing out.

Paul G.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: LEJ
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 12:46 PM

I was sorry to see Martin leave, and felt bad when Bruce O left, but Shambles you are really pissing me off. You have always been a guy who enjoyed jumpimg into the fray on almost any topic, and a lot of times I said to myself "Self, now you don't have to express your point of view because Shambles already did." Who has been "crassly rude" to you? I mean other than me, right now?

At least stop in the Mudcat Tavern and let me buy you a virtual pint before you go.

You know, I don't quite understand what's happening in the Forum right now. I understand that the controversy and occasional taunts or ridicule get under people's skin. But WHY QUIT? And where else in this world or any other, will you find so many wonderful people begging you to stay if you DO say you are leaving?

Clueless. LEJ

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 01:29 PM

Well bugger me. Who's gonna follow me around now?

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 01:54 PM

Hi, Roger - I hope you'll be back. I hate to see us surrender a good, comfortable home to the bullies of the world. They've taken far too much turf on the Internet already. I've been distressed by this most recent flareup - even the good folks seem to be snapping at each other now, and taking offense where no offense is intended.
In the past, several of us have gotten together to calm things down by posting music stuff like crazy, but it doesn't seem to be working this time. Too many people are taking the bait and belaboring the negative stuff, and it's bringing the spirit of the whole place down. I spoke to you rather curtly in the "censorship" thread about this - I'm sorry if my words stung, but it is of utmost importance for us not to contribute to the destruction of the spirit of Mudcat by dwelling too long on the negative side of things.
It's up to all of us to decide what to do here. It's not the bullies that are binging us down here - it's the well-intentioned people. We've got a heated, 80-message debate going about Mudcat censorship that really doesn't exist (except in a very few, isolated instances) - we've generated a lot of hard feelings about sonething that really isn't an issue. We've got all sorts of people taking offense at things said with no offense intended - or at things said by people who should be ignored. We've got a million words of absolute crap from people trying to solve this mess - and only making it worse in the process.
There has been a combination of factors that have made it downright unpleasant around here lately, and I wish it would stop. It's up to all of us to decide what we want to do here. My opinion is that all this verbiage serves to make matters worse. We need to get back to talking about music and good times, or we might as well all just leave. We're destroying ourselves.
Don't take the bait, folks. Don't talk about this stuff any more. Stop taking offense at what people say. If you have nothing to say, don't post a message just to fill up space. (Non-musicans have plenty of good stuff to contribute to this forum, so please don't feel I'm saying you shouldn't be here - but we all should THINK before we post)
Talk about folk music, for heaven's sake!
Goodbye, Roger. I hope you come back. You're a good guy.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:12 PM

well, now see what truly caring can mean.

there is no way to promise you that it will again be what you want, but the door is open...glad you didn't say 'never'...

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: LOWCOUNTRY
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:37 PM

HOW DOES ANYBODY HAVE TIME TO READ ALL THOSE UNPLEASANT THREADS ANYWAY? I COULD NEVER AFFORD TO LEAVE THE CAT. WHERE ELSE WOULD I GET ALL THE GOOD MUSIC INFORMATION? AND BY THE WAY, THANK YOU, MUDCATTERS, FOR MUCH WONDERFUL INFORMATION, DISCUSSION AND ADVICE ON THE THREADS I CHOOSE TO CLICK ON. SORRY, SHAMBLES; I ALWAYS ENJOYED YOUR COMMENTS.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:12 PM

I was walking around town today thinking about the people I was in class with growing up and about how they were an interesting sampling of different people. There were kids who were bullies and kids who were patsies, kids who did their homework everyday and kids who spent every evening in detention. Some kids got smacked by the teacher and some kids who kissed the hem of her dress. There were cliques and clacks. People are different, of course. What we had in common was being in that class.

What we at Mudcat have in common is music... folk music to be more specific. Religion, politics, sex... just to name a few... are matters which separate people and make them individuals... sometimes heroic... sometimes ugly. Isn't it better just to keep the talk to music? That is our common bond!

All the best, Dan

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:19 PM

Sham, sorry to see you go. But I'd be sorry to see anyone go, even (if I guess right) the one about whom Max haas taken action. I have experienced a spikiness from you from time to time, and wondered why. But you were well informed, and sometimes witty too. The one who has offended (must they be a non-person now, too?) also seemed to me to be well informed, and sometimes witty, although sometimes more outrightly provocative for reasons I could not fathom. Anyone, surely, would be missed, and also they will miss the information and help more to be found here, I think, than anywhere else. I suspect most who absent themselves will pop back for a peek from time to time, and eventually present themselves again, even if under a new name. Let's hope so.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:31 PM

I do not know or understand what has going on the mudcat lately becouse I had some holydays, I sence something went wrong.

shambles please stay on the mudcat, but if you go I hope you come back very soon. shambles, be strong and may god be with you everyday, all the best skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: bbelle
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:34 PM

Sham ... I'm feeling very sad and misty-eyed ... I have thought so often of late that I would delete Mudcat out of my Favorites folder, but it's because of people like you that I stay. I, too, did not enter your Moving On thread, because I thought it had to do with the songs. The outpourings of warmth and well-wishes for my birthday reminded me what the Mudcat was all about. So ... I won't insult you by begging you to stay ... but hope you will reconsider ... moonchild

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:54 PM

Shambles, I too am sorry to see you go. Yours were among those contributions which made me stay after I first came to find the answer to a question, and then stayed to see if there was anything I could do in return. One of those who made me feel at home on the Mudcat, who made me feel it was worth staying here when things were a little shaky. Let the light shine (even if it's only on the tail of an insect).

Penny

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Ferrara
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:02 PM

Oh, Shambles, Noooo!!!! - I haven't been around lately but it's because I've been really under the weather. Bill told me there were some pretty rough things happening. But I'll miss you!!! -- Even if I'm not posting or even reading threads, you're one of the people that in my mind make up "my Mudcat". -- And I hope you'll be back, and I hope you'll be back soon.

Once again, skarpi, you've found beautiful words:

"shambles, be strong and may god be with you everyday, all the best" - Rita Ferrara

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:09 PM

I am sad to sea all this discussion and all I sea at the moment is a very large dark cloud over mudcat, but I hope that goes away and well see the light and all the good things in all mudcatters, this is bad and I am not feeling very well about this.

May god be with you all, skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: LEJ
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:17 PM

Skarpi... we are regrouping at the Mudcat Tavern. Come in, have a Guinness, and sing a song with us.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Chet W.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:17 PM

I have to say, too, that I've felt like it a few times myself, and did leave to varying degrees from time to time. But there's no place else like this. It has to be saved and it has to keep together. We had one person who would neither be reconciled with or made to feel unwelcome enough that he would go. Maybe he had to be dismissed. But, damn, this is such a decent bunch of people. Even bitter disagreements usually end up in a positive way. Let's not change our ways out of fear. My wife, who suffered under a communist government for much of her life, has been trying to teach me that you don't let the bad ones control your life, and that you do have that choice. Shambles, I hope you get over what hurt you, have a few drinks on us and thoughts about us, and come back.

I feel like your friend, Chet W.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Dan
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:30 PM

Hey, Shambles, what did the son-of-a-bitch say?

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Tucker
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 01:18 AM

I can understand Paul's feelings, the politics got to me too. My main attraction here was music and I must admit I indulged in Politics, after all it is part of life. I want to return, to share musical experience with my friends here. After all, I have liberal and conservative friends in my society and we don't eat each other (sic. Anyway, I am coming back but I am leaving politics on this side of the keyboard. Yeah it is very much part of music but for the most part we can tread lightly there. I found out that what we take lightly ie: the IRA and the songs are not taken so lightly by those trying to establish peace in Ireland. At any rate, when we meet, lets lift a glass, sing a song and enjoy each other's company. I like you all and we have music in common. Tucker

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Bill in Alabama
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 06:42 AM

Shambles-- Sorry to see you go, but I can certainly understand your decision. Hope to see you back; soon or late-- I hope to see you back.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Philippa
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 06:48 AM

I wonder why the discussions of Kosovo and gun control didn't provoke so much negative reaction as the Irish controversy?

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Reta
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 12:08 PM

Hello my dear friend;

Roger, do not leave the Mudcat. Everyone has already told you why you should stay and how to handle the hostile threads so I won't bother to go into that side of the fray. What I do want to say is this, when we give up and leave we are letting Dick, Susan, and Max down and casting all the hard work they have put into this wonderful site aside as if it counts for naught. Please don't do that to them and so many others who work so hard to help all of us who enjoy the 'Cat so much. I have been gone for a few weeks and was so dismayed at what has happened that I considered, (but only for a second or two,) leaving also. Why cut off my nose to spite my face? Stay Roger, the Mudcat needs you. I hope all will return, we are family.

Love and blessings to all. It's nice to be back. Reta

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Mudjack
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 12:44 PM

Come back Shambles, Come back Sham...
Wipe the tears from me eyes
Come back Shambles, wipe the tears from me eyes.
With all the flares of cybertempers, I have to question why is we have to get in a frenzy over what some one says when they cross over the line. Our sensitivity to such issues is exactly what the shit disturber is looking for, so what do we do? Jump right into the fire with the jerk and take issue when we know the best way to deal with it is to ignore it and let it pass. Come on Shambles, we're better than that. Come back and help get us on track.
After all this, I have decided when its my time to vacate the primises, I'll just be gone without any announcements as I'll close the door lightly so when I come back to look in, I can do it without a lot of hoopla.I admit I have this adiction to looking in on the cafe and resisting a post is impossible, truth is my time here is time I should be spending on honeydo's. That's why I'm here.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 01:52 PM

Atta boy, Mudjack.

Mick

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 99 - 03:52 PM

Shambles,

I'm sorry to see you go, too. As Ferrara says, "you are one of the people in my mind that make up my Mudcat". Please retreat and regroup and drop by now and then. (That's a tricky subterfuge on my part, because I know that if you do that you will get caught up again in the Mudcat community - I bet you won't be able to resist posting just one little message here and there, and eventually you'll probably be back here in spirit again)

Love Helen

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From:
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 08:29 AM

I am sorry to see you go Shambles. I haven't been reading a lot of threads lately and the ones I have read are still good. Why don't you lurk for a while and just read the threads that look "musical". You might recapture some of your old "mudcat feeling"

Murray

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 10:26 AM

Shambles and all,

Please, try to keep in mind that 1/3 of the folks out there are against everything all the time. Sometimes more & sometimes less. That's how we get positive and negative results from elections.(Two sides of the same coin---that old paradox again). It's why we have a two party system where the entrance of a third party into the mix puts is like tossing a screwdriver into the gear box. It also assures us of very vocal majorities and very vocal minorities---as well as media. Boy, it sure is a noisy landscape. That also means the process leads to compromise that often a bunch of the people think is bogus. I never could've withstood what Bill Clinton has gone through recently. That said, I never could've stood what Richard Nixon went through either. (That does not mean I condone any of it!)

I too am out o' here for political talk of any kind from now on. The infamous c....m thread was instigated by me to point out the error of going in the direction of the BS threads. I was starting something I was sure would be taken as tongue-in-cheek. Ironically, that seemed to almost be the beginning of the decline until we now seem to be at the point where the mule (me at least) has seen the elephant. After I joined into the verbal frays, (if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em) my pronouncements on the sanctity of trad music must've caused some good people much distress. For that I am truly sorry. If my humor was sometimes overboard (blurted out 'cause it was funny to me) try to realize it was intended to just be a funny break from the norm---a way to insert comic RELIEF. I used to do it in my shows to defuse the negative effects of several people meeting their demise in most of my best songs---the ones I really wanted/needed to show people. But in cyberspace, things just don't seem to make it from the transporter pad to the surface without being mutated in meaning. Things that are stated as simple known facts by the writer are---probably 1/3 of the time---viewed as strident challenges and value judgments by the readers of this forum. It took way too long for me to realize the truth of this.

I plan to stick to what I know best---trad folksongs of the USA and lyrics to songs I want people to know about.

Art

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 10:40 AM

Art, this is crazy. Nobody could take anything you say seriously. ...Hmm, that didn't come out right.
Anyway, you get the drift: you should say what you damn well like. You are a creative spirit. If you start to stifle yourself you will eventually say what the hell is the point of being here. It's a question of generosity of soul: anyone who reads what you say with any sense in their heads can tell that you have this in the tone of what you say. Sure cyberspace is different, you have to signal a bit more carefully the tones and ironies, but it is a learning process for everyone. Backing off from that is crazy.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 11:27 AM

Art, I hope you'll continue to share your humor, stories and opinions. You're a loved and respected member of this cyber-community. For me, the history and humor of the people who make the music is an important part. How many folk singers have you heard that don't talk at least as much as they sing? Someone in a public speaking venue once said "I don't feel uncomfortable making you uncomfortable." Well, I don't resent feeling uncomfortable sometimes. The best friends I have and the greatest performers I've heard make me think. I can't live in a vaccuum where my beliefs are never challenged because others don't want to rock the boat. The music we sing is about history and politics and people - it's more than just nice sounds. Discussions can get to the point where everyone's had their say and their just butting heads, at which time it's appropriate to drop it. I'm not upset by debate, but by those who attack people rather than ideas.

With that said, I understand not everybody feels the way I do, and some people may be sick of argument and the responsibility of always being the lone dissenting voice. My purpose in writing this message is not to tell you or anyone else what they should or shouldn't write about, read or like, and not to revive old arguments - it's to let you know I've enjoyed reading your opinions and will welcome your future contributions - controversial or otherwise.

With apology for long-windedness - Jeri

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 11:37 AM

Art,

I am going to paraphrase you on this. I love ya to death, my friend, but you are wrong on this one. If the thread is political, controversial, out there......whatever, and you are not comfortable, just don't go there. I am shifting my focus back to the music as well, but if a BS thread comes up that I like, I will jump in, and once more tilt at the windmill of civil discourse on controversial subjects. If folks don't want to participate, God bless 'em and the thread will die.

Your free spirited commentary is as much a part of what makes the Mudcat special as anything. Stifle it and you will hurt this place. We have all learned a lesson from the past few weeks, but that doesn't mean that we change the essence of this place. My feeling on those that have left is that if they left because of lack interest, God bless 'em. If they left because of mean (as opposed to spirited debate) comments then shame on us for allowing it. But if they left because they don't like what folks are discussing, in threads that they didn't even have to go into, then they are selfish control types that really don't care much about this community. Otherwise they would not attempt to hurt it by their leaving. MHO.

You, Mr. Thieme are one of the most important people here because you are you. Stay the course. I truly have come to love you as a close friend. These comments are intended to be reflective of that.

Mick

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 01:01 PM

Art,

Just to add my two cents to what everyone else is saying, please don't start denying us the benefit of your thoughts and opinions on politics and life (and the universe and everything). Many if not most of the songs in the DT data base are political in some way. I'd guess a great many of us got interested in folk music precisely because we found a poetic expression of our own socio-political beliefs. It was largely from that starting point many years back that I began to discover the simple beauty, and honest expression in all the music everyone here loves.

I've always regarded you as one of our foremost interpreters of the music and one of the most insightful. Don't be put off by cranks and trouble makers. I've heard folks say "It takes all kinds to make a world" but I have a suspicion that there are some kinds it just doesn't take. I saw a sign once that said something like "Non carborundum illegitimi" (Don't let the bastards wear you down), and I offer that advice to you and everyone here.

- Mark

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: LEJ
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 02:15 PM

Mick and Mark, you guys are right on the money with your comments. Art, anybody who doesn't see the essential common sense and good humor in your posts is missing the boat, whether you are talking about Folk music OR politics.

Can we reach a point where we are able to integrate camaraderie and music? Can we find threads where the choice is not simply between "Seeks Clarification of Second Verse of Barbara Allen" and "BS/ What are Mudcatters Middle Names"? I think we are reaching the point. Take a look at the "Mudcat Campfire". A natural setting was created that was conducive to conversation, humor, story telling, AND traditional music. Fans of all of these Mudcat genres would benefit by taking a seat by the fire.

There will always be a need for providing lyrics, song titles, etc. But for those who would stick around this forum and be here to answer, I believe other needs must be met.

LEJ

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Night Owl
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 02:36 PM

Thank you LEJ...for the above post AND the campfire!!

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Chet W.
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 02:38 PM

The last few posts here reflect exactly what I've been pondering during my morning chores. It seems like a lot of my friends don't like to think about or know about or get excited about anything new that's different or important, politically or otherwise. I guess it's a matter of comfort and, well, laziness, but how many times have I tried to discuss a big idea or play some new interesting (to me anyway) music to friends that seem to at least hold the same basic values as I do, and they're not interested. They've retired from novelty. Their opinions are not subject to change, so they don't enjoy a good argument. I wonder if we're all just jaded from modern culture (why won't they let JFK jr. die in peace, with his family around him?). I really don't know what it is. But I do notice that the times when I get lazy about politics or social issues or ethics or whatever, my creativity level goes down with it.

Would appreciate any thoughts, Chet

Subject: This thread is closed. Thanks.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 02:47 PM

I dunno. I guess I'd say that Art is the quintessential Mudcatter, the one we all should emulate.

That being said, I would also like to say that many of us are licking our wounds from a fairly serious flame war - more serious because we thought that the 'Cat was immune from such unpleasantry. Well, I guess we weren't. I know we all have a lot more to say on this subject, but maybe it's better if we just don't say it. Please don't post any more messages to this or any of the other threads that were part of this whole mess. Try to discuss things privately if you must. If there is a compelling need to analyze all this in public, please wait a few days until the air clears, and then start a new thread. I think it's better to just let the matter die.
Now, Art, will you go out into the other threads and tell us some jokes and stories? We've had a nice, toasty campfire going for 24 yours already.

This thread is closed. Any messages posted to it after this will be deleted.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:43 AM

bye bye.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 07:53 AM

The reasons for refreshing this thread may be less than positive, however, one can only hope that something more positive results from it. This thread shows that the only course open to you, when you get to the point that you have tried your best to ensure that our forum is as good as it can be and it still not to your personal taste, is to remove yourself from it.

Rather than accept this reality, sadly, many still seem to think and encourage the idea that our forum can be changed to reflect their personal tastes by encouraging the removal of the contributons of others, that are not to their personal tastes. There were many nice things said in this thread, and it was nice to read them again, including the following - Goodbye, Roger. I hope you come back. You're a good guy.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Can we (meaning you) rename a thread?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14-Aug-04 - 02:30 AM

Wesley S came up with the following [posted in the latest 'hug and prayer complaint thread]- it says more in a few lines than I can ever manage, in my long-winded way.

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others

As it was not a suggestion of mine, is there any chance of you putting this wonderful common sense into the FAQ and in the headings of the various forums? [crediting Wesley S of course]

The starting point is setting the example that accepts that none of us here really have any control over the posts and ideas of others - only ourselves. That is something I would have thought that the Joe Offer I first came across and greatly respected in the forum, accepted and set the best example in.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:33 PM

The thread refresh may not have had to do directly with you, Shambles. There have been many people looking back to "the good old days" when everything was better. It could have been a reference to that. We hear repeatedly that there were no problems before. So, maybe it was about that. That's what I thought when I first saw the dates of all but the last three posts.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:37 PM

I doubt it... it was likely just goof-off surfing mudcat loaded again...

Maybe it's time to have this thread moved to the BS section... Where if the 'rules' had been in place when it was started, it woulda ended up in the first place...

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Melani
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:48 PM

Just to add a music reference--one of my favorite statements about "things were better in the good old days" is a song called "When This Old Hat Was New." It's the usual "this is awful, and that is awful and the other thing is awful..." The chorus goes, "It was not so when Bess did reign, and this old hat was new." It dates from the time of James I.

So what else is new?

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:53 PM

I don't know who refreshed this, but I appreciate it. It's not pleasant reading at times, and the most unpleasant things are between the lines. I've only been in here a couple of years now, and I've seen Mudcat have its ups and downs. Until recently, I didn't see it centered so much around one person. Not that I think the problem is one person. In my mind, anyone who accepts the actions of a person who is intentionally trying to offend, and hurt someone else is part of the problem. If nothing else, I hope that recent discussions have caused us all to re-examine how we conduct ourselves in here. I say "us all" because there have been two occasions when I got fed up with someone in here (in both cases, people I consider friends) and resorted to the easiest form of humor... sarcasm. I wasn't obscene, but I went for the easy cheap shot and felt badly about it afterward. In both instances, I PMd the person and appoligized (how in the world do you spell apologized?) Hopefully those incidents are left behind.

There are some in here who seem to think civility is a four letter word. Thank God (or whoever you prefer thanking) there are only a small handful.

Onward

Jerry

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 03:58 PM

John from Hull posted a very nasty personal attack thread against Shambles this a.m. which was quickly deleted. Others like McGrath have been haranguing him too. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this thread refresh is another instance of a member wreaking vengeance.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,m
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 04:20 PM

I have had the misfortune to take things in the worst way possible. It's something I'm learning to deal with I hope. And I seem to be getting better at it as the months go on. However, that said, it's time for a little peace to break out. Really.

Unlike Jerry, I have often lashed out when walking away would have been the right thing to do. That is wrong. Ya never know when people have had the worst day of their life, or if they carry aburden so heavy it weighs on thier very soul.

Realizing what I did doesn't excuse my own childish behaviour, but maybe saying it will allow me to move on from a limbo located between hell and purgatory. One can but hope.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Amos
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 04:29 PM

One can indeed...and persevere. Thanks.

A

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow (temoprarily uncookied)
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:01 PM

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:13 PM

??

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:18 PM

Something went wrong there. Perhaps I pushed the delete button or something instead of the submit. (Those question marks were me too.)

Haranguing must means something else wherever it is you live, Sigh. My "harangue" consisted of a friendly suggestion to The Shambles that he should perhaps apply that quote to homself - Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change...

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:25 PM

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Some of us have long since noticed you are often first in line when it comes to Shambles, McGrath.

And a warm goodbye to you.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow.
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:29 PM

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,m
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:32 PM

Not quite the peace I had envisioned . . .

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:35 PM

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" h eremarked, heaving a brick.

(Incidentally, if anyone else is reading this, that last remark by whoever-it-is was not actually true. More often than not when I've been posting in a thread along with The Shambles, we've been more or less in agreement. Not surprisingly, since we've exchanged tapes and sung together and have got on very well when we've met. We share some bees in our bonnet, just not this one.)

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:05 PM

The thread was revived in an attempt to embarass The Shambles, and by a person who is not a memeber of his fan club. I think on the whole that his cunning plot has backfired.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,m
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:08 PM

This is getting to be like the peace I envisioned.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:34 PM

"This thread is closed. Any messages posted to it after this will be deleted."

That was on 24 Jul 99 - so I assume all the "revival posts" will shortly vanish anyway.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,m
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:52 PM

Then how will we know we were ever here? In decades, a civilization in space will receive these words that have been hither-to-now posted and have but half a story. Deleting this could lead to intergalactic strife.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:30 PM

"All I am saying, is give peace a chance."

And ease up on the peddle, brother John9.

Jerry

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: GUEST,m
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:55 PM

The act of forgiving is something we owe ourselves. Nursing a hatred or dislike leads nowhere. Why do we forgive greater sins and get hung up on littler ones?

Seems we got that backwards. IMO.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:34 PM

Roger you have been one of the stronger voices here and I have always been glad to hear your words. I have been away a ton the last year and a half but still feel very close to many here . I hope to meet you one of these old days . THanks for all your input . Yours Guy

---

Back in the old days, we didn't have a technical means of closing threads, but this thread was supposed to be closed. You may continue this discussion in another thread, but this particular thread is closed - although I'm not going to bother to delete the recent messages.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-