Rebel Flag meaning

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,biff
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:21 PM

while others say don't hate nothing at all except hatred

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 04:55 PM

Ya know... I was thinkin' about this will in North Carolina last week... Passions run very deep in the South and seems the further Sotuh you get the higher they run... There is a resentment that has been passed down... Some of it somewhat rational and some completely off the wall...

The Rational: Yeah, the Union made for some piss-poor victors... The war had allready turned when Sherman burned a 60 mile wide swath thru the South... What was that about??? And then after Appomatox the Union felt it needed to occupy the South until 1876 and would have stayed longer had a deal not been struck in the Hayes-Tilden election... Yeah, those sins are not easlyy disregarded...

The unRational: The "rebel flag" represents heritage, not hate??? Hey, here's what I'd like to see... Test all the folks who think that on their knowledge of history... I think that would put an end to this argument... Most of these folks think the 3 branches of government are: Anhauser-Busch, NASCAR and Walmart...

Nuff said...

B~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 05:32 PM

OK, McGrath, I give up- you ARE being wilfully thick & obtuse. Believe whatever fairytale you want. Perhaps you think you're being amusing or cute.

As far as "re-working" the flag, I seem to recall something about lipstick on a pig.

There are, however, quite a few in the UK who do see the Confederate Flag for what it actually is. Since you won't inform yourself by means of the published history works & the non-fiction sources pick up a copy of Ian Rankin's "Mortal Causes" some time. Or if that's too much trouble, watch that episode of the television series.

Of course, Rankin is a Scot...

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 03:24 PM

The American flag has historically symbolized both. Which is true of the British flag as well.

When South Africa changed, and repudiated the nightmare apartheid era, it would have been very understandable if the new South Africa had abandoned all the symbols of that time. But it didn't. The flag was changed, true enough, but when it came to the new national anthem, that incorporated the both the African anthem "Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika" , and the Afrikaans anthem, "Die Stem". Changing a symbol to mean something new can be a better way of robbing it of its power to do damage.

Here's a reworking of the Confederate Flag incorporating the colours of African Liberation that make up the Southern African flag which was put together a few years ago that might bear considering using. (And here's an article about it.)

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 01:21 PM

Thomas Jefferson said a lot of things. He, like so many politicians, was not consistent.
He emended his famous speech about "watering the tree of liberty".

The difference in flying the American flag at lynchings and the Confederate flag has more to do with the intention of the lynchers. The Confederate flag being flown has a specific intention and that is to support a system of slavery and the inferiority of a race. The American flag has historically symbolized the opposite.

I think Jefferson would have understood Lincoln in the context of the Civil War and emended his statement.

I don't think that the UK in its entirety would consider the proposition that flying this battle flag would be a positive in light of the sociology of the US regarding its position on slavery.
In short, not one person can speak for an entire UK.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 10:42 PM

And Mcgrath, the only one who is "Loading all the guilt for slavery and racism symbolically on the Confederate flag" is YOURSELF.

What is being placed "on the flag" is only the justly deserved portion of the the ACTUAL - not symbolic - slavery, racism, and white supremacy the Confederate Battle Flag represented AS WAS INTENDED AND ADMITTED and evidenced by its creators.

The distortion of history is attempting to erase or whitewash (no pun intended) what the flag represented then as well as now.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 10:25 PM

In the UK the Confederate Flag is generally seen essentially as the regional flag of the South, in the context of music. I'd see that as positive.

Its far from positive. Its ignorant and offensive. Its DOUBLY offensive when folks who have been exposed to the real history of this flag chose to ignore that history in favor of some fantasy.

McGrath, you cannot take a single statement by Lincoln the consumate politician and apply it unilaterally. You need to read the REST of his works including those from before the war.

Suggest you read Doris Kearns Goodwin's "Team of Rivals" to get a better understanding of the Lincoln administration.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 07:42 PM

While it may be true that the precipitating reason for the Confederate States to secede from the Union was slavery, the war aim of Washington initially, and for several years after the war had started, was not to end slavery, it was to "preserve the union". That was specifically stated by Lincoln.

And yet it is by no means clear that there is not an implicit right of secession in any federation. Thomas Jefferson seems to have believed there was: "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'"

Loading all the guilt for slavery and racism symbolically on the Confederate flag, and implying that the Union flag (in its various adjustments over the years) does not share that symbolic guilt, is to distort history and involves a failure in some ways to face up to that history, which is a "shared history". Both flags have been flown at lynchings.

Flags are strange and dangerous cultural artefacts. If it is possible to retrieve them from those who would use them to propagate hate and prejudice, is that such a bad idea? In the UK the Confederate Flag is generally seen essentially as the regional flag of the South, in the context of music. I'd see that as positive.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 07:37 PM

This man is deeply deluded. His personal experience belies the hangings, beatings, killings and mistreatment of slaves in the South. He says:

"The war was not about slavery. The South had the constitutional right to secede. Confederate soldiers were battling for their homes and their families. President Lincoln was a despot. Most importantly, the victors write the history."

The idea that there was a Constitutional right to secede is bogus. It was a basic flaw in the Constitution that the Founders were aware of and predicted the eventual Civil War. This was in no way a war between the States. It was a war by the South against the United States. Confederate soldiers would never have allowed this man to become a doctor.
He had to opt for physical education because that was what was available to him and yet
he is in denial about that.

Lincoln was many things but not a despot. Bush was a despot. Lincoln had compassion
for the soldiers in the South and took great pains to see that the breach was healed after the conflict. Unfortunately as we find today, with delusions by this man, the healing has been replaced by a pseudo Southern defense of their misbegotten heritage.

It it tragic that we hear a point-of-view by this poor man who attempts to salvage his
family's history as an enabler of Southern slavery.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 06:50 PM

McGrath, are you being intentionally thick? Enough of the white supremecist, "Loyal Slaves", war was not about slavery, Sons of the Confederacy bullshit, please. The "Black Confederates" card has been played before;it was crap then, and its crap now. What's next, a screed on "Jewish Nazis?"

This nonsense has been categorically debunked over and over despite what a handful of deluded or psychotic individuals may contend.

The American National Flag - stars and stripes, whatever you want to call it- in its many incarnations (hint: the design of the flag at the time of the Civil War is not identical to the current flag) has flown in its 200 year plus year history over a nation that tolerated any number of anachronisms and atrocities to today's way of thinking. However, the Confederate Flag was created and used by those who went to war specifically to perpetuate the system of race-based chattel slavery that supported the social system and economy of the south. It does not "share a history" with other U.S. flags in any way, shape or form.

As for "I saw a documentary which included people who fly the Confederate flag, and they said that it's a symbol
of the Southern U.S. Their intent was not to offend anyone." I can direct you to any number of documentaries and websites of white supremecist, skinhead, neo-Nazi groups that say precisely the same things about their display of the Nazi flag.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 06:19 PM

Nice link, McGrath. As I've suggested, the flag's "meaning" is not fixed.

In terms of international recognition, of course the Confederacy was not a nation. In terms of its everyday functioning, of course it was.

Besides a flag recognized by the majority of the population, the CSA had a fully functioning government, a loyal populace, a known boundary, a national currency, a postal service, organized and uniformed armed services, a national constitution, and so forth.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:36 PM

Here's a piece I found which puts a different angle on all this.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:12 PM

"...so the current flag of the German Republic is equivalent to the Nazi flag?"

A case of Godwin's Law...

My point was that the sharp distinction between the Confederate Flag and other American flags is open to question. They have a shared history involving a tolerance of slavery and oppression of black Americans.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:02 PM

I don't think it's offensive. I saw a documentary which included
people who fly the Confederate flag, and they said that it's a symbol
of the Southern U.S. Their intent was not to offend anyone.
That's how I feel about the Confederate flag, it represents the South.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:19 PM

Well, Simple, hows about the theory that you're a pompous, self-important, anti-historical, do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do arsehole?

You seem to think that a single quote from a single source somehow legitimizes and sanctifies whatever opinion you choose to expound upon.

One can cherry-pick quotes from a source or sources to support damn near any preposterous theory. But that's how cranks, not historians, operate.
Hence my mention of numerous works on topic which provide a more comprehensive, if more complicated, analysis & explanations - which you chose to ignore.

So fine - I'm tired of playing "Simple Seeker Says" with you - enjoy playing with yourself.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:04 PM

So, Greg, still no counter-theory. Interesting.

It's very simple.   Either you can come up with a theory to rebut mine--with logic, facts, sources, and direct quotes--or you cannot.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:20 AM

'"My [Lincoln speaking] paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.'

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 10:22 PM

The Confederacy could just as well have have declared itself a ham sandwich. It was never recognized by the U.S. OR the rest of the nations of the world as a separate country.

Sorry, String, but South Carolina attacked U.S. Government property, not 'tother way round. And the ships with Gustavus Fox carried provisions only- no way they could have been interpreted as anything else. The Sumpter episode has been explored & documented pretty thoroughly.

Lincoln was simply following his inagural pledge to hold properties belonging to the government, and that beyond that there would be no invasion of the South or use of military force.

But Confederate apologists have got some mileage out of the "Lincoln manuvered the South into starting the war" shibboleth.

McGrath: so the current flag of thre German Republic is equivalent to the Nazi flag?

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 09:32 PM

"It's a guilt and a shame that has to be accepted and can be used positively,..."

                In any event, it's a development that can be used for positive purposes. It's hard to imagine an industrialized country today where slavery would even have a positive impact. One would have to educate the work force to a point where they would be able to function, and if that were done, it would be impossible to contain them as slaves.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM

As I understand it the Confederacy did declare themselves a country independent of the United States. The consequences at the time in the shape of war were appalling, and so was the aftermath of that war over a century and more, in the shape of continuing oppression of black Americans.

Perhaps it might have even been better if secession had been permitted. Perhaps slavery would have been ended in other ways, as happened over the following decades in other American countries such as Brazil. Nobody can ever know things like that.

The Confederate flag does of course have associations with slavery, and also with the oppression of black Americans over the years after slavery ended. But so does the flag of the United States. It's a guilt and a shame that has to be accepted and can be used positively, but only when it is accepted. And the same kind of thing is of course true of the flags of many, maybe most, countries.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 06:33 PM

Actually, history may reveal that Lincoln declared war on the Confederacy to get them to become part of the Union. The evidence surrounding Fort Sumpter isn't in yet. Medical supplies were interpreted as weaponry and gave Lincoln a green light.

Still, Confederacy can't escape its association with the system of slavery. Lincoln didn't care about that in the beginning but he changed his mind in office.

The Confederacy wanted to declare themselves a country independent of the United States.
We should all be grateful that they never became one.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 06:05 PM

Both flags symbolised a slave-owning country.

Sorry, no.

1. The Confederate States were not a country.

2. However they DID did declare war on the United States in order to perpetuate slavery.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:58 PM

Surely what was meant by "the slave trade" there was the international slave thread, outlawed in 1807 as a form of piracy, rather than the internal trading in slaves which continued in the States for the next 58 years, initially under the auspices of the (American) Union Flag, and, for the last couple of years of its existence, under the auspices of thew Confederate Flag.

Both flags symbolised a slave-owning country.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:40 PM

"What does the history of the slave trade have to do with whether or not the Confederate flag is a sign of bigotry in today's society?"

Since the Confederacy was a system that relied on slavery to support it, the slave trade was essential to its survival. Since the Confederate flag was a symbol of the system, it had everything to do with it. Many of the descendants of the Confederacy still support the idea that slavery might have been justified because of their supposed notions of racial inferiority. The question posed suggests a complete ignorance of the feelings of contemporary African-Americans.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:44 PM

"Basing arguments on Thomas..."    Fascinating that after all this time, the poster has not come up with a counter-theory, though he was cordially asked to do so--with direct quotes, logic, sources, etc, of course..   If you think Thomas misquoted the PM, for instance, let's have the exact quote.

Otherwise the carping we've seen so far bears a distinct resemblance to:   shoot the messenger.

And yes, threads do drift--but sometimes other worthwhile topics come up.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:54 AM

Another story here http://www.allvoices.com/news/4583628-nazi-symbols-probe-wearing
of inappropriate symbolism

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:09 PM

What does the history of the slave trade have to do with whether or not the Confederate flag is a sign of bigotry in today's society?

You'd have to ask the Simple Seeker After Truth and Fount of All Knowledge, LLC. He brought it up, and at great length.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:55 AM

Drift, my boy, drift...

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: John P
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:08 AM

What does the history of the slave trade have to do with whether or not the Confederate flag is a sign of bigotry in today's society?

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:35 AM

Well, Simple Seeker, I don't think there's anyone likes the slave trade much these days tho its still going on.

But if you're referring to the The Slave Trade... by Thomas, its not that I personally "don't like it" but that most reviewers panned it, and NOT because he doesn't adopt the slaves point of view, as the reviews make clear. I realize that ignoring 30 years of scholarship may not be a problem for you, but it is for others.

Basing arguments on Thomas makes you very much like Major General Stanley: your knowledge has only been brought down to the beginning of the century.

If you care to rectify that and read a study or two from the last fifty years or so, then get back to me & we'll talk about it.

Til then, have impressing yourself woth your supposed erudition. I ain't gonna play.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 09:52 PM

I've been a bit busy--a bit too busy to monitor Mudcat below the line.


So Greg, you don't like The Slave Trade.   That's peachy.   Anybody who cares to read the criticism of Thomas' book will find that probably the top problem is that he does not consider the problem from the slave's point of view. However this has nothing to do with why British participation in the slave trade ended . So your criticism is a red herring in the issue of exactly why British participation in the slave trade was banned in 1807--and not earlier.

It's also interesting that somehow you have neglected to actually come up with a a logical countertheory to the one I have put forward--with direct quotes of course, as mine had.
One might be possibly tempted to hazard a guess that you have no argument to counter mine--- and that your criticism is so much hot air.   I'm sure you wouldn't want anybody to think that, of course.

I'll break my theory down so you can tell us exactly which part you don't understand.

1) West Indian interests had huge clout in Parliament.   According to Birth of the Modern (p 321), by another British historian, Paul Johnson: "Of incomes derived overseas including Ireland, William Pitt told the House of Commons in 1798, about 80% came from the
West Indies. The richest men in Britain were those with successful West Indian estates."

2) Saint Domingue provided a clear object lesson of a successful slave rebellion.

3) From the French Revolution up to 1802, the anti-slave trade movement had to contend with the suspicion of links to Jacobinism, since during that time France banned French participation in the trade.    In 1802, Napoleon re-instituted it, which removed that argument from the arsenal of the anti-abolitionists.


3) There were however still powerful interests in favor of the slave trade.   The British Navy looked on slave ships to some extent as the "nursery of the Navy".   The validity of this can be seen in the fact that not just Britons learned seacraft on board slavers-- e.g. John Paul Jones, a Briton originally of course, started his career aboard a slave ship.   Certain cities, especially Liverpool, were heavily dependent on the slave trade--not just shipowners, but rope makers, shipbuilders, and even bakers.

Wellington was at one point quoted as saying: Thomas p 546, that he was "bred in the good old school and taught to appreciate the value of our "West Indian possessions and neither in the field not the Senate shall their just rights be infringed, while I have an arm to fight in their defense, or a tongue to launch my voice against the damnable doctrine of Wilberforce and his hypocritical allies".




However, as I noted, in 1806 the West Indies were in debt, there was a large sugar surplus and the "old colonies" did not want any more slaves. Prime Minister Grenville, in January 1807, made exactly this point:   Thomas, p 555:   "Grenville argued that abolition was necessary to ensure the survival of the older Caribbean colonies: 'Are they not now distressed by the accumulation of produce on their hands, for which they cannot find a market?   And will it not be adding to their distress...if you suffer the continuation of further importations?"

This was the sea change. The West Indian interests, powerful as they were, did not themselves want any more slaves.   So they withdrew their opposition to ending the slave trade--and made this plain to their representatives--as reflected in the PM's quote above.
So the moral push to end the slave trade, a movement which had been for decades unsuccessfully trying to get such a bill through Parliament, was able to seize the moment.
It was the economics which changed--and dramatically tipped the balance in favor of abolition.

If you have a countertheory, I'm sure we'd all like to hear it.   Logic and direct quotes, of course, would be considered necessary, as I'm sure you're aware.

Thanks so much.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 06:48 PM

"Re-Mick's question about Americans wearing IRA symbols"

I honestly think that in Britain there has never been an aversion to people displaying their political feelings and Irish Republicanism was viewed as a valid cause so I don't think republicanism itself would cause any offence to the vast majority of people. Yes the symbols of terrorist organisations (both republican and loyalist) are viewed in a different light though I suspect Scots are more attuned and sensitive to them because of the measure of sectarianism within Scottish society itself. I remember my English wife seeing the Red Flag of Ulster symbol and not knowing what it was. Personally I think most English people are pretty relaxed to the subject and sectarianism is just about history in England. As to Americans displaying IRA symbols. I suspect that most folk would simply have dismissed them as misty eyed romantasists who didn't realise that the Prov IRA were a proscribed orgainsation not only in the UK but in Ireland itself. So I don't really think that too many people would lose sleep over the symbolism. There was perhaps a bit of an anti-American mood, especially in Northern Ireland itself, because of the allegations that the terrorist campaign was at least partly funded by Irish-Americans in Boston and New York etc. However that is a different matter.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 12:14 PM

Can't get further North than Canada can you?

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 12:02 PM

The dynamics of racism is different in the South and North. The so-called "Southern Hospitality" is just a matter of dealing with societal problems differently. Remember that Nazi Germany also maintained a kind of superficial "civility" while committing atrocities.

There are parts of the South that eschew any kind of civil decorum. There are parts of the North that are polite and civil. These generalizations shed no light on the rampant racism found in every part of the country.

I have encountered both civility and open blatant racist hostility in both Northern and Southern cities. Yes, Virginia, there is North Hospitality as well.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:31 PM

I once read that a White Northerner doesn't care how 'high' a Black man rises, as long as he doesn't get too close; a White Southerner doesn't care how close a Black man gets as long as he doen't get too high.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: pdq
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:19 PM

Thank you, Lonesome EJ.

You are a gentleman and a scholar, and there are too few of us left.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM

Don't come to Page County, Va., jts... It's so bad here that there is a gas station/ general store that employs a black man so the "boys" take their "nigger jokes" outside... But, yeah, Southern man be perfectly willing and able to "smile in your face"... That's what the older bluesmen called it and, like I said, it is phony... Manners is manners and if someone is smiling in yer face and then callin' you a nigger behind yer back that person ain't all that mannerly... Least that's the way it is in rural South... City folks is prolly better behaved, I donno???

B~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:50 PM

Bobert,

I don't know what Southern manners are like when they talk
"with their buddies". I do know how they are when they interact with me and I have seen plenty of interaction between blacks and whites and I am quite willing to stand by what I have said. In general, southerners, both black and white in the few dozen cities I have visited, seem to have better manners.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:18 PM

OK, then, ONE MORE TIME!:

Here's One
and
Here's Another
and
Yet Another
and
And Yet Another


There are at least two or three more related threads, but I can't find 'em quickly.

Something of an eye-opener how ingrained institutional racism is and how little people really know about slavery, the abolition movement, the ante-bellum South, the Civil War and Reconstruction.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:03 PM

From Slavery in America Tony Siebert...
The harsher treatment of blacks by the Five Civilized Tribes, including the Seminoles, possibly stemmed in part from the larger number of enslaved blacks held by Indians after the removal(to Oklahoma). The number of enslaved blacks among the Creeks increased from 502 to 1,532; among the Cherokees, the number grew from 1,592, to 2,511; among the Choctaw, from 512 to 2.349; and among the Chickasaw, the number climbed from several hundred to around 1,000. For the Seminole, the number increased from 500 to less than 1,000, although most scholars dispute this figure as too high in view of the many who are known to have been stolen and sold by slavers or else who had run off to Mexico.

There you go. Whether you think 2511 slaves is worthy of mention I leave to your disgression.

Facts don't have an agenda? I didn't see many facts in your "from long articles about the civil war" post, so I suppose that statement is correct. The general and nebulous "There were at last 5000 black families in the slave states who owned black slaves" might qulaify as a fact in your eyes, but it sounds like horsedroppings to me, and I'd like to know your source, if you have one.

As you requested, I have sited support for my statement.
Your turn.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:59 PM

Don't waste your time EJ- we've been thru this whole "Black Confederates" "Loyal Slaves" "slaves had it better than free workers in the North" Neo-Cofederate bullshit with PeeDee & others before, and for them no facts need apply. I'll see if I can dig up the earlier thread & post a 'clickie' to it.

If they didn't "get it" then, they ain't gonna now.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:41 PM

Too bad that there ain't a large number of black Mudcatters 'er this discussion would have ended a long time ago...

As for Southerners having better manners??? Nah!!! Just different... Same "Ahhhh shucks, mam" Southerners use the word "nigger" freely when they are with their buddies... That ain't good manners... That's what the bluesman Son House referred to as folks "smiling in your face" and it is phony as a 3 dollar bill...

As for blacks fightin' in tyhe unCivil War??? Well, yeah... The only home they ever knew was the South and it was being invaded... That is a purdy lame arguemnt for rednecks flyin' the Confederate flag these days...

B~

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: pdq
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:52 PM

You must not even read what your posts, much less what I posted.

Facts don't have a agenda.

Please support your statement that the Cherokee had enough black slaves to be worthy of mention.

One side of my family is Okie and part is Cherokee. The blacks who came west in President Jackson's relocation program were mostly escaped slaves who took refuge on Cherokee lands where they were treated as equals. The fact that state and federal troops could not touch them while they were on Indian lands (early 1830s) was one of the reasons for the relocation of most Indians to the territory west of the Mississippi River.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM

Oklahoma was a territory where slavery was legal. The tribes in Oklahoma fought on both sides of the conflict.
Your information seems to support somebody's agenda about blacks in the Civil War, and to be slanted, subjective, and inaccurate. I suggest that, instead of siting "a long article about the Civil War" and concluding with "for what it's worth", that you be specific about your source, and honest about your intent. If you are suggesting something along the old line of "blacks in the South were happy with their system and willing to go to war to preserve it" be honest about it. If you are suggesting that "black" families had and held black slaves and thus had an interest in supporting the Confederacy, you definitely need more specific and accurate information to support such a claim.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: pdq
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:07 PM

"I don't buy this. Unless Cherokee slave owners in Oklahoma were counted as black."

I hope you don't believe that Oklahoma was a state in 1865 or before, much less that it was a slave state. Perhaps you also believe that the state of Oklahoma was part of the Confederacy.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:58 PM

There were at last 5000 black families in the slave states who owned black slaves.
I don't buy this. Unless Cherokee slave owners in Oklahoma were counted as black.

"...black Americans marched to war with the Southern armies from the very beginning in early 1861. In contrast, the Federal government refused to allow black men to serve in its ranks until well into the conflict. It was 1863 before the North began using black troops in any large number, and only then after considerable opposition." Another specious or at least misleading statement. The Confederacy was extremely nervous about arming slaves, as you can imagine. The black Americans who "marched to war with the Southern armies" were primarily slaves, retainers, cooks,farriers, and washer women. It was not until January of 1864 that the attrition to the Confederate Armies compelled the CSA leadership to study organizing black troops. This notion was never brought to fruition, although it was considered several times in 1864.
On the other hand, it's true the Union did not pursue organizing Black military units until after the Emancipation Proclamation in summer 1862 for fear of alienating the border states, but after the proclamation, the enlistment of black soldiers was pursued in earnest. By the end of the war, 180,000 black troopers were serving, about 10% of the Union force.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:57 PM

No harm in a bit of thread drift - I wonder if there's been any research into how different societies rate when it comes to good manners and general friendliness. Lots of anecdotal stuff and subject impressions, but I've never come across any evidence-based studies.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:38 PM

Bobert,

For what it is worth, I have observed blacks and whites getting along much better in Phenix City, Alabama, Columbus, Georgia and Wilmington, North Carolina than I did in southern and central Ohio.

In the past I have attributed that to the fact that the races had been together longer in the South. I am not so sure of that now. For one thing, the specific histories of the southern towns I have lived in give more compelling reasons, for another, it is too small a sample to generalize. On the other hand, I have seen enough of the North and the South to firmly believe that manners are generally better, in public at least, in the stores, restaurants, high tech workplaces and hotels, in the South.

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: pdq
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:25 PM

...from long articles about the Civil War:

"The 1860 census counted 240,747 "free Negroes" in the slave states, 15,000 more than lived in the free states to the north."

There were at last 5000 black families in the slave states who owned black slaves.

"...black Americans marched to war with the Southern armies from the very beginning in early 1861. In contrast, the Federal government refused to allow black men to serve in its ranks until well into the conflict. It was 1863 before the North began using black troops in any large number, and only then after considerable opposition."

{for what that's worth}

Subject: RE: Rebel Flag meaning
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:09 PM

I've experienced that as well "EJ" another friend from Alabama was a perfect example of that. But the one to whom I referred was not. I think it was more a case of compartmentalization and rationalization. The word was from his home and heritage. He did not want to reject his grandparents values, so he internalized a different meaning. He pretty much admitted that when I pointed out how, I as and outsider felt about the word and how a person he might consider a "non-nigger" black might feel.

The issue is very complicated. But I think that education and integration is slowly winning over. Maybe in another generation or two that war will truly be over in the hearts and minds of the white South. But I don't think that Canadians and Brits using that flag are doing anything to help. Frankly, they should also have better manners then that.