BS: American English usages taking over Brit

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 02:24 AM

"I've never heard the word proven used by a Commonwealth citizen"

The word 'proven' is a common enough term in Scottish Standard English. There are other words which are thought to be more American but are also very common in Scotland like "gotten and pinkie" I think it is a mistake to think in terms like "British English" when in fact there are various types of British English.

It is like the full page article in the Daily Mail yesterday which claimed that Halloween was an American import virtually uncelebrated in Britain up until several decades ago. Of course it has always been a big to do in Scotland the only real difference now being that since the film ET kids tend to call themselves "trick or treaters" instead of "guisers".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:03 AM

Oh, proven IS sometimes used, in 'legal' language.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 12:08 AM

Right side.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 11:58 PM

Q, 'half six' is an abbreviation of 'half past six,' or as Americans might say six-thirty. But which side of the six IS the thirty?

We now await the substitution of 'proven' for 'proved.' I've never heard a Commonweath citizen use proven.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Slag
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 11:39 PM

Oh, and Bill_D! "Bloody" because that is one of the functions of a "pale". Lines drawn in the sand, barbed wire, razor wire, pales ("impaled"?), moats, Great Walls; they are all designed to set a limit with consequences for those who do not heed the meaning. Lines are drawn and enforced by those who have authority and power, from property lines to national boundaries (frontiers). "Bloody" because "bloody" is pretty much an identifiable English expression as is the term "pale" and after all, that's what this thread started off about.

Nearly every dictionary I have referenced shows the term "lawyer" with the preferred pronunciation (sorry. I don't have umlauts available) "lah' yer", but it is almost universally pronounced "loi'-yer" (which drives me nuts!). Are these people who practice loi? or law? Well, those folks do tend to have their own language, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:57 PM

On the subject of schools, I agree that it is good if people are able to speak and write both in their local accent/dialect as well as in a form of their language that is considered appropriate for academic settings. JtS is very much that way. His normal speech is perhaps a little less influenced by his Newfoundland origins (alas), and his speech can be very generic sounding (for North America) when needed, but he can and does talk in a thick Newfoundland dialect when he's talking to other Newfoundlanders.

I somehow lost my Rhode Island accent when we moved to Maryland. My siblings picked up the local Maryland accent, but for some reason, I did not. So my speech sounds much more North American generic and not resembling any particular place. I don't know what I think of that. I think I might prefer to have kept my Rhode Island accent had that been possible for me. I'm glad I don't have a native Maryland accent (sorry native Marylanders - different strokes and all that).

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:45 PM

I don't have any problem with standardized spellings. But we know that how things are spelled really has nothing to do with how words are pronounced and how they are used, which to me is a good thing. And it's definitely true that it's not uncommon for English speakers to not be able to understand each other very well. I don't have a problem with that, either, any more than I have a problem with there being many different languages in the world besides English, and many dialects within those languages. I like living in a world that is linguistically diverse.

I was thinking about asking you what kind of accent you normally have, Lox, knowing what I do about your background. Is it more like your place of origin, the country in which you spent your youth, or the place where you now live? Or a blend of all three?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:31 PM

The speech used by BBC broadcasters comes close to a standardized, common currency speech.
We get the complete BBC News Channel, by cable, and enjoy not only the news and business, but the many special programs that they present throughout the day. The language is good, 'clean' English, spoken with good diction; if they say pahs-ta, it is still understandable to those who say pas-ta.
Of course, the sports section causes head-scratching when the subject is kricket.

At the opposite end is "Eastenders," seen sometimes on television here.
And I can never remember if the slang expression 'half six' is 5:30 or 6:30.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:20 PM

Divided by a common language, thread Aug 08


Language - American/English, thread May 07


Two cultures divided by a common language


Searching on "language", all years, above are just 3 of the many threads that come up, including two called Mangling the English language.

Yup, we have gone off the specific topic in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:15 PM

I see Lox & I made similar points at about the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:11 PM

Is anyone else reminded of all the other threads we've had over the years about American English and British English?

I guess we don't link related threads in the BS section the way we do now in the Music section. It just seems we are going over and over the same things we've discussed in previous threads.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:06 PM

"I don't see the point in eliminating accents and dialects..."

Neither do I.... they DO make the world more interesting and provide continuity in culture. I have NO objection to preserving tradition and having a comfortable way to speak in their neighborhoods.
I just wish more places had something similar to the Umgangsprache in Germany, or the standardized high-level language the Swiss employ - especially written for the use. This way, even though areas might have their colloquial differences, they could also have a general "almost everyone understands it" way of communicating.
In the USA and most industrialized countries, it would be the 'basic' form used on the 'National' television news programs.

In this country, there are problems in many school systems as programs are often faced with many students who do poorly because they don't 'get' basic instructions.

This might seem a bit of a departure from the thread topic, but it applies in a world where many folks visit other countries for education...or just as tourists.

(*grin*...I had an interesting debate with MGAS (Hil) at the Getaway as we debated what my very large box of a Dodge vehicle was called...a van? a camper? a caravan?.. I think we settled on 'that very large vehicle')

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 07:41 PM

By the way, I wrote all the above in a very refined clipped English accent.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 07:38 PM

"I don't see the point in eliminating accents and dialects,"

Standardizing spellings etc does not equate to eliminating the differences, it is about referring them to a common denominator.

That way we are able to talk about English as a language, while being able to define subcategories within it in relation to a central - and evolving core linguistic fundament.

There are very few people who speak perfect english all the time in ther own home, but for weathermen, politicians, doctors, lawyers etc throughout the english speaking world, it is essential that diagnoses, rulings, forecasts, policies, and interpretations are clear and unambiguous, so that a man from the outer hebrides may do business with a man from jersey without quibblig over the meaning of words etc.

A dictionary is nothing more than a practical problem solving tool.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:52 PM

The important thing to avoid the kind of linguistic confusion Lox demonstrated there is to regularise spelling. That avoids the kind of problem that Lox demonstrated there. But spelling is only a rough guide to pronunciation as best in English.

Even where dictionaries include phonetic guidance about official pronunciation, that can have very little effect on how English speakers around the world (or indeed around England) may actually say them.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:41 PM

*accents or dialects

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:40 PM

If everyone pronounced every word the way they are given in the dictionary, there would be no accents of dialects. I don't see the point in eliminating accents and dialects, and in fact, I think the world would be far less interesting, fun, and even less beautiful if that were the case. I like to use the dictionary for word meanings, myself, but if I'm in an area where a word has a meaning or pronunciation that differs from the one in the dictionary, most of the time, I'm going to respect that the people I am among at that moment do it differently. I like some of them better or worse than others, myself, but I don't see the point in trying to tell people they have to say it the way it is in the dictionary if that's not how it is done locally.

One of the things I love about Newfoundland is that there is a different accent and/or dialect in just about every town or village, and I love all of them. I find it very sad that these are starting to go away because of the influence of television and films.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:48 PM

(I have always pronounced pasta the way Rita says it...and never even thought of other ways till this thread.)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 04:54 PM

Mthe GM

While you are at it, change off-license to out of .... Hmmm, doesn't make sense, does it?

"Off limits" was accepted into the Oxford English Dictionary because it is useful; defined as "outside the limits within which a particular group or class of people must remain; not to be frequented or patronized, esp. by military personnel; out of bounds."
This more specialized meaning, originally coined by the military, has proven useful.
Webster's has an additional sense; "not to be interferred with," which is later that the WW2 original meaning.

Off limits is common in Canadian writing, e. g., polluted bay water in Bay of Quinte, Ontario- "Raw bay water still off limits: health officials." Bellville Intelligencer. "City land off limits," Windsor Star.
Also see- Australian Customs Services notices, World Wildlife Federation articles (Fishing for Funds to be placed off limits for rule breakers), New Zealand where the Army training area, called "Off Limits," is hosting motorcycle races, etc.

Out of bounds also is in common usage in the U. S.; "He stepped out of bounds, or the ball went out of bounds," etc.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 04:22 PM

In the US, at least, when a child goes to a parent or teacher and asks how to pronounce a word, the answer is often "look it up in the dictionary". This is supposed to be a learning experience.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 04:21 PM

That's as may be, but the dictionar also serves the purpose of standardizing definitions, spellings and pronunciation of words.

This is useful so that when we write each other letters we can understand each other.

Aiph woui dythunt woueed phoaind kerrm-moon-akay-shunn dyphykoulter.

That's one of the reasons for dictionary's - they aren't just collections of linguistic trivia.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 04:13 PM

Dictionaries can assert that they are giving "generally accepted pronunciations", but that doesn't make it true. As we can see, there are so many regional variations in word usages and pronunciations, I think it's often not possible to nail down a "generally accepted" word usage or pronunciation, especially considering the fact that even dictionaries are frequently not in agreement with one another.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:55 PM

Dictionaries can give "generally accepted pronunciations", but these don't necessarily coincide with the variation in how people talk, especially regional variations, even within countries. (eg Geordies!) Nor for that matter do they keep tag of the way in which speech varies over the years.

There's always a tension of opinion as to whether dictionaries should be primarily descriptive or prescriptive - should they record how we do speak, or instruct us as to how we should speak.

The general consensus, in the UK anyway, seems to be that the emphasis should be on the former.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:51 PM

No — I was the thread originator, and words and idioms were what I was talking about [as e.g. American military 'off limits; driving out traditional English 'out of bounds']. Other people drifted my thread into variant pronunications, changing names of places in different languages {which caused Alice to give vent to a most peculiar outburst and I hope she has got her temper back now}, and so on. All very interesting, no doubt; but only marginally or tangentially related to my original point.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:46 PM

How do you pronounce "pasta", Bill?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:45 PM

It looks to me like this thread is more about individual experiences with word usages and pronunciations than generally accepted ones. At least, that seems to be what the thread originator was talking about. So it doesn't seem at all off topic for people to discuss these things from their own perspectives. Besides, it's an interesting and informative subject. Also, what's generally accepted in one location might not be in another. Frequently there aren't any generally accepted pronunciations or usages.

What doesn't seem to quite make sense is when people insist that the word usages and pronunciations that are in use in their own locality are the generally accepted ones.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:42 PM

(and I am informed that in England, they often order in 'pitza'....)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:40 PM

re: pasta...My 2nd generation Italian wife says 'pahsta', and looks agahsta at any other pronunciation.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:37 PM

Gurney, I think the hole in the castle wall is called a "garderobe".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Slag
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:32 PM

Language lives in the idiom.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:28 PM

Why don't people look up generally accepted pronunciations rather than posting their local or personal usages and pet hates and excoriating variations?

Crow Sister- Decade in the Oxford English Dictionary is given as de-cade (with equal stress on both syllables), not dek-ade.

Someone called 'comedic' American, but the OED has an English quote from 18-something.
A catalogue I just received from the BBC describes a DVD offering of "Sensitive Skin" as follows: "Joanna Lumley ...absolutely electrifies as a recent widow in this warm and touching comedic drama."
Moreover, 'comedical' appeared in print in 1600 (OED).
A comedist is a writer of comedies. Etc.

Decay, Merriam Webster's Dictionary, gives di-kay as the preferred U. S. pronunciation.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:15 PM

From my reading, in mediaeval castles, the toilet (can't remember the term used) was a hole was overhanging the moat, which received the deposits. The effluvium percolated upwards back into the closet, where the inhabitants kept their spare clothing, because the smell kept the moths away.
Just the rich inhabitants, of course. Poor ones HAD no spare clothes.

Neatly ties up both usages, eh!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 02:21 PM

closet (from the online Etymology dictionary)

    c.1340, from O.Fr. closet "small enclosure," dim. of clos, from L. clausum "closed space," from neut. pp. of claudere "to shut" (see close (v.)). In Matt. vi:6 used to render L. cubiculum, Gk. tamieion; originally in Eng. "a private room for study or prayer;" modern sense of "small side-room for storage" is first recorded 1616. The adjective meaning "secret, unknown" recorded from 1952, first of alcoholism, but by 1970s used principally of homosexuality; the phrase come out of the closet "admit something openly" first recorded 1963, and led to new meanings for the word out.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

Consistency- what's that? It doesn't exist in the U. S.

I was raised with pro-cess (SW U. S.) and seldom heard praw-cess until I spent some time in New York. Pro-duce and prod-uce also vary regionally.

The Merriam Webster Colleciate Dictionary is based on the most common U. S. pronunciations. Here is what it has on those words:
Process- 1. prä-cess; 2. pro-cess
produce- 1. prä-duce; 2. pro-duce

Thus both are accepted in U. S. speech. Undoubtedly there are regional maps of the variation, but I am not going to look them up.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM

I should correct this one:

He decided at some point to try to adopt the US pronunciation of "produce" and he assumed that the difference in pronunciation would be the same as the difference with the word "process". He pronounces the "o" in "pro" as a long "o", and I use a short "o" when I'm saying "process" (but not when I'm saying "produce").

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 01:44 PM

Survival sometimes dictates openmindedness about accommodating new terminology. We were really thirsty while shopping, and we really needed to find a "water fountain", so we learned quickly once we discovered nobody knew what a "bubbler" was in Maryland. Of course, we pronounced it "bubblah", which probably made it even that much more impossible to understand.

It wasn't survival that helped me learn the difference between a milkshake and a frappe, but it was disappointment in the beverage I was served that facilitated my learning the differences. When I was still living in Rhode Island, we were touristing in the DC area and I asked for a milkshake thinking I would get flavored shook milk. I was kind of disgusted with the thick ice creamy "drink" I was given. After living in Maryland for several years, I had forgotten what I once knew about milk shakes in New England, and I ordered one expecting to be served a delicious thick, ice creamy "drink", and I was deflated to discover that I had been served only flavored shook milk. Live and learn.

On the subject of word usages and pronunciation differences between spouses from different countries, JtS and I still have mock arguments over the pronunciation of the word, "pasta". I like most of the Canadian pronunciations better than US pronunciations, but I'll never like the way Canadians pronounce words like "pasta". I say "pahsta", and JtS says "paasta" (the past part is pronounced the same as the word "past"). He says it's pretentious to say it the way I do, which I find ironic and amusing.

He decided at some point to try to adopt the US pronunciation of "produce" and he assumed that the difference in pronunciation would be the same as the difference with the word "process". He pronounces the "o" in "pro" as a long "o", and I use a short "o". So he was very surprised when he learned that I have never heard anyone in the US pronounce "produce" with a short "o". Why he picked that one word to change, I'll never know.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 01:18 PM

The things you can find!

The story of "bubbler"

and they provide a linguistic map of the use of "bubbler"

Obviously, this is an excellent example of what I mentioned above as 'naming items by the most common local commercial product name.', as in Jello, Listo, etc.
I can see why this would happen, but it frustrates me when folks stubbornly cling to their local nomenclature even after moving from an area and realizing that it was NOT a generic name. (not you, Carol...I realize you were only noting it.)
   Ah well, I am a philosopher...not a psychologist. I keep expecting reason from human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 12:15 PM

In reference to the Bubbler comment way up thread... that one is used in Rhode Island, too. I grew up saying bubbler, and when my family moved to Maryland, we didn't know how to ask for the public water dispenser, because we didn't know the local term for it (water fountain). I also grew up with the misplaced "r"s. When I first attended a school in Maryland, I was shocked to discover that I was spelling "idea" wrong. As far as I knew, idea was spelled, "idear". I don't recall having ever been corrected by a teacher in RI when I spelled it that way, either.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 11:27 AM

And in the "Oh Dear!" category:
From the Australian Prime Minister re: the oil leak disaster and fire:
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said Monday he was "deeply disturbed" at the latest turn of events on the rig, signaling the government's rising frustration that fixing the spill is taking so long.

"Do I think this is acceptable? No, I don't," Rudd told Fairfax Radio Network. "Are we angry with this company? Yes we are. Are were trying to do everything we can to get this under control? You betcha."

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: melodeonboy
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 09:51 AM

"Closet, in the English midlands, used to refer to the water closet or lavatory."


Also in Kent, I believe. My grandad always referred to it as the closet. It stil sounds slightly odd to me (however common it may now be) when people talk about hanging their clothes in the closet!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 08:30 PM

"The Latin is Labor. Schedule comes from Latin Sceda, which in classical Latin was pronounced with a 'k' but in 'Church' Latin lacks it." Q

I've noticed quite frequently that a concession is made that the Americans' pronunciations are more historically/linguistically accurate than those of the British. Why is that? And why don't we, the Americans, get credit for that? :)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Slag
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 08:20 PM

I'm shootin' from the hip here but I think if you looked up "pa" in Pokorny or some Indo European dictionary apparatus you would find that it is a root for such words as "paleo-" and "pastor" and "pasture" (and "power" and "father" for that matter). Specifically I seem to remember that it was the stone fence that separated the "tamed" land from the wild. Why do the English love their manicured gardens so much? Why do so many Americans go for things like rock gardens and "natural" landscaping? It all has to do with the "pale". It all has to do with civilization vs chaos. Hey? How much chaos can you tolerate?

Now, about shooting from the hip...!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Gurney
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 07:42 PM

Beyond the pale = outside the fence/city wall/palisade as has been said. We still nail 'palings' on a fence.

Closet, in the English midlands, used to refer to the water closet or lavatory.

Hood = Bonnet, on an auto = car.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 06:27 PM

Labour,labor and labur all have a long history. The Latin is Labor.
Schedule comes from Latin Sceda, which in classical Latin was pronounced with a 'k' but in 'Church' Latin lacks it.

Canadians are taught 'English' English, but due to closeness and television, pronunciations are mixed up. No problema.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:52 PM

Since pales in England go back quite a long way (in print 14th c.), beyond the pale" may go back before before its application to the Dublin area that remained under English law. One reference from 1347 refers to pales bounding a Seignur's demeigne (OED). The English 'pale' existed in the Dublin area by 1400, so McGrath could be correct.
There was also the English pale in France.
In any case, it is interesting that the phrase has persisted for such a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:45 PM

English is a street fightin' language from way back. It is not a static thing. I've been noticing many instances of people starting sentences with "So, ...." and I'm pretty sure that is relatively new in the media.

As for me, I've begin pronouncing schedule without a 'k' sound, which is not how I was raised, and using the long vowel sound for the word "process". I'm turning into a blankety blank canAdian!

At least I don't spell labor and flavor with a u.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:29 PM

Well...ok, thanks. I learn something everyday here.

I had heard the expression for years, but only knew it as an expression meaning WAY out beyond normal limits...

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:10 PM

"Beyond the pale" refers to the time when effective English rule in Ireland was confined to a relatively small area centred on Dublin - "the Pale" (as in "palisade"). The rest of Ireland was therefore "beyond the pale", and, since English law did not operate there, considered to be lawless.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:05 PM

In Ireland Dublin is referred to by non dubliners as "the pale".

The west of Ireland being definitely beyond the pale ...

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM

Does anyone remember which hollywood actor it was who described his film as "comedic"?

Ignorant actors have a large role to play in affecting language.

They are being interviewed and they don't know the word for something so, with the butter still ice cold in their mouths they invent a new one.

Then all the other actors copy them in an orgy of sycophantic reassurance.

Mr Cruise, it isn't "comedic", it's "comic".

And could everyone else stop copying him please.


(or whoever it was, though the first time I heard it, long before it became common, it was Tom Cruise who said it in an interview)