BS: American English usages taking over Brit

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:08 PM

Mortician and undertaker - both words are used here in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:12 PM

Where I live in the mountain west, people generally say undertaker. Other parts of America people may say mortician, but that's just another example of how a big country has regional differences.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:22 PM

Mortician is another late 19th c. word, which first appeared in an advertisement for burial services. A 1915 entry said the word is a "recent inovation due to a need felt by undertakers for a word in keeping and more descriptive of their calling." (OED)

In 1863, Hawthorne said "'caskets' is a vile modern phrase which compels a person to shrink from the idea of being buried at all." (OED)

In the U. S. and Canada, both mortician and undertaker and both coffin and casket are in common usage.

These, and other terms, may result from members of various occupations trying to glorify their callings. Political Correctness is bringing about more of these replacements, esp. in the U. S.; e. g. the word 'garbageman' is being replaced by 'sanitary' worker or similar euphemism.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM

And your 'garbageman' is our 'dustman' — see Dickens' Our Mutual Friend & Shaw's Pygmalion.

& so ad infinitum...

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:28 PM

Generally, it is "officers" and "enlisted" in the US military - "enlisted persons" is a relic of the misguided 'politically correct' movement and is not used. Actually, enlisted is the generic term and, when referring to specific individuals, one would use a branch-specific term, such as soldiers, sailors, airmen (yes, it's airMEN) and Marines. Marine gets capitalized - its important to them. There is also a set of ranks that is in-between - warrants or warrant officers.   I seem to recall from someplace that the British army refers to senior noncommissioned officers, such as the regimental sergeant major, as a warrant. The US military reserves the term for specialists.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 08:15 PM

You mean the "politically correct movement" as in the "Handbook for Marine NCOs" (1995)?: "Similarly, when enlisted persons speak of themselves or to or of other enlisted persons they should do so by rank -'Lance Corporal Daly,' not just 'Daly.'"

Or how about the "Enlisted Soldier's Guide" (2006)?: "Enlisted persons are eligible upon completion of initial MOS-producing courses."

As you say, "enlisted" is also commonly used. But the full term is still "enlisted persons" and has been for as long as women have held enlisted rank.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 08:54 PM

Whatever you say, Lighter.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 11:23 PM

' I seem to recall from someplace that the British army refers to senior noncommissioned officers, such as the regimental sergeant major, as a warrant.'

Artbrooks, I think you might be ref'ing here a recent series of posts of mine on the Help: Bless' Em All thread in which I spell out some of the complexities of senior non-com ['enlisted'] ranks in the British army.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:48 AM

Actually, I missed that thread - I think I was remembering something from an old (pre-Flashman) George MacDonald Frasier novel titled "The General Danced at Dawn".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 01:09 AM

Ah, Artbrooks - a fellow G MacD F enthusiast! Hurrah. I used to correspond with him about inaccuracies - particularly in Flashman In The Great Game where he recalls absently-mindedly humming Widdecombe Fair in barracks while disguised as a trooper of Native Cavalry on eve of Indian Mutiny 1857; & I pointed out that the Baring-Gould version which he obviously had in mind wasn't pub'd till 1891 — & he replied charmingly, as he always did, "Oh dear, that old fool Flashman misremembering again & I failed to pick it up in my editing!"

I think it a tragedy that he died before getting to the American Civil War so that we might find out at last how Harry Flashman contrived to fight on both sides and hold commissions in both armies. But perhaps that was policy on Fraser's part - just his little joke to keep us guessing!

I will refresh the Bless em all thread for you — I think you might find my observations, which come last of all, of interest.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:49 PM

"Morticians" is not an Americanism, it's a barbarism. I'm glad to see Bob Dylan doesn't use it:

"And the one-eyed undertaker, he blows a futile horn"

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:19 PM

Mortician -
Painting, Edvard Monk, "Office Christmas Party, London Society of Morticians, 1905." See it here:
http://www.dearauntnettie.com/museum/museum-xmasparty.htm

The first mortician was William Russel, who started a business in 1688.

Morticians Day is celebrated on June 16.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:05 PM

'Mortician' has invaded British medical and death literature. Sorry, McGrath, UK usage will yield to American every time.

Article about Scottish Television broadcast-

"A team of morticians from Glasgow is travelling to France to exhume and identify an estimated 400 British and Australian soldiers killed during the First World War and buried in a mass grave."
http://video.stv.tv/bc/news-090429-france

See "British National Formulary," Section on British Medical Association ..."and other risk groups such as morticians and embalmers ..."
betamedicinescomplete.com/mc/bnf/current/6488.htm

"Work and Environment
Certain jobs can put people at risk from hepatitis because they may involve contact with infectious body fluids.
-Healthcare workers
-Other workers who might come in contact with body fluids including morticians, sewage workers, ..."
http://www.britishlivertrust.org.uk/home/the-liver/liver-diseases/hepatitis-b.aspx

All three of the above citations from UK websites.

Morticians, who in most European and North American countries are required to have training and a license, wish to distance their practice from that of the businessman-undertaker.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:01 AM

Going back a few years I don`t ever remember seeing the word `siblings`,
`how`s the siblings doing`, imagine asking this of some old friend here in Ireland, looks like another US import, Ooo MY GADD, I WAS LIKE,
Yes youse guys US speak is here to stay.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:31 AM

I think 'siblings' is less an Amercicanism than a catch-all term from sociology that has got out into the mainstream. Quite a useful word, to my mind — we have 'parent' to mean father or mother & 'spouse' to mean husband or wife — so why not a useful word to mean brother or sister?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 12:00 PM

Q, you post English usage

"Mortician -
Painting, Edvard Monk, "Office Christmas Party, London Society of Morticians, 1905." See it here:
http://www.dearauntnettie.com/museum/museum-xmasparty.htm

"The first mortician was William Russel, who started a business in 1688.

"Morticians Day is celebrated on June 16."

And tthen you go on to post this:

'Mortician' has invaded British medical and death literature. Sorry, McGrath, UK usage will yield to American every time.'

And then people wonder why we USasians feel bashed? tut tut

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 12:37 PM

"Sibling" is Old English, and even less of an Americanism than "mortician" - though unlike that last, it is a very useful word.

In fact the term that tends to be used in the UK these days is neither "undertaker" nor "mortician", it's "funeral director". At least it is self-explanatory and unambiguous. I prefer "undertaker" but I suppose with most people being burnt rather than buried these days, the blackly humorous pun isn't as relevant as it used to be.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:14 PM

These changes have rather spoiled the effect of my favourite back-of-lorry[truck] sign that I saw many years ago: "OVERTAKER - BEWARE OF UNDERTAKER".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:23 PM

Can't get more American than:

Lord, I told the undertaker,
"Undertaker, please drive slow;
For this body you are hauling,
Lord, I hate to see her go"

Somehow wouldn't work with "mortician", even apart from not scanning. Or "funeral director" for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:29 PM

MEtheGM, It has certainly come into the mainstream mostly newspapers I haven`t heard anyone on the street asking after the siblings, unheard of a few years back.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:32 PM

how are the siblings?

Ha, that's funny. I don't think ANYONE uses the word in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:43 PM

Well, you wouldn't say 'How's the spouse?' unless you were being facetious - but still a useful word

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:48 PM

I think that (in the US, at least), 'sibling' is more likely to be used as an adjective rather than a noun - such as 'sibling rivalry'.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:49 PM

I remember answering the 'phone when I was a mentally challenged kid (OK, I still am m c):

"Hello! Funeral Services- we undertake to take you under."

Ebbie, I deplore some of the usages, but we are stuck with them, once they become part of media-speak.
(the media also can shift pronunciations- e. g., covert has changed from kuv-ert to co-vert).

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 03:13 PM

Q, I still answer the phone from time to time with "St. James Infermery - you stab 'em, we'll slab 'em".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:10 PM

The invasion of "elevator" is diminishing the currency of an old joke in Oz.

Bloke from Beyond the Black Stump (I occasionally name Tibooburra if I'm trying to convince) has to go to The Big Smoke (Sydney) for the first time in his long life to sort out an insurance problem at the company's head office.

He finds the building and, like all such places, it has a huge forecourt with a wall of glass facing him. Set into the bottom of the glass wall is a set of doors, each with a sign "PUSH", so he pushes one and it opens so he goes through. Just inside, there is another glass wall with a set of doors, each with the sign "PULL" so he pulls at one and it opens so he goes through. Inside, there is a large space with its ceiling about 4 stories up and, opposite him, a huge wall of decorative marble. At the bottom of the wall is another set of doors, each with the sign "LIFT" and he's there for ages, struggling to get one open.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 01:52 AM

Is turnabout fair play? The Britishism Invasion, Language corruption is a two-way street (By Ben Yagoda in Slate.com)

"...language historian Dennis Baron pointed out recently that Brits have been whining about "Americanisms" at least since 1781, when John Witherspoon coined the term. So it may shock you to learn that British words and expressions have, of late, been worming their way into the American lexicon as much as the other way around. "

Check the graphs...

He's got a blog, Not One-Off Britishisms, and posts this excerpt:

"Advert (instead of advertisement or ad), bespoke, bits (instead of parts), brilliant, called (instead of named), chat show, chat up, cheers, a coffee, cookery, DIY, early days, fishmonger, full stop (instead of period, as in the punctuation mark), ginger (a red-haired person), gobsmacked, had got (instead of gotten), Hoover (as a verb), in future, keen on, kerfuffle, mobile (as in mobile phone), on holiday, one-off, posh, presenter (a television host), queue, sell-by date, shite, short-listed, snog (passionately kiss), sort out, spot on, starter (instead of appetizer), straight away, take a decision, top up, twee, wait for it, wanker, and whilst."

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 06:59 AM

One of my favourite US Science Fiction writers recently entitled one of his blog posts, "Well Whinge!" - which I thought was brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:08 PM

It doesn't much worry me if citizens of the USA have typewriters without a letter u, or the letter s, having to content themselves with a bare o in colour, and a z in all words ending in -ise.

I wish however that they would remember a few important facts:-

No atom ever had a "Nuculus", it is a Nu-cleus.
Hence, there is no Nucular Energy, no Nucular Bomb, no Nucular Treaty, and No Nucular Family.

Without exception, they are "Nuclear", pronounced "New Clear"

This would not bother me at all, were it confined to the USA, but even our bloody newsreaders are doing it on the BBC, once the home of correct pronunciation.

GGGGRRRRR!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:29 PM

"Nucular" is not correct and I don't say it myself, but not everybody has had the chance to learn about the nucleus and nuclear reactions.

Meanwhile, people get along as best they can using the language they already know. And that language includes words such as:

particular
spectacular
funicular
orbicular
and perhaps more,

and these words serve to make "nucular" more natural than "nuclear."

I can't even think of another word anything like "nuclear."

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:38 PM

But that's just a reaction.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:52 PM

February.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 03:01 PM

Nucule- a small, seed-like fruit, a nutlet. Adj. nucular.

Doesn't grow up to be a mushroom-like cloud, though.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 03:05 PM

Doesn't Febuary follow January?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 04:35 PM

No ~ Febuary follows Janruary'

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 04:48 PM

That old song, "Shine on, harvest moon," just doesn't sound right if you sing January, FebRuary, June or July.
But the original score read "Since April, January, June or July," avoiding the problem.
Google tells me Ruth Etting was responsible for the February in the line.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM

Febuary follows Janruary, and then Mach goes by really fast.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 08:07 PM

Who's on first!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Dave Swan
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 01:29 AM

Jeri, go to your room.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 08:08 AM

Parents in UK telling their naughty offspring that they are grounded as punishment. I was sent to my room when I was small.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 08:21 AM

"Grounded' surely not same as 'sent to room'. 'Grounded' = not allowed to go out for certain number of days, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 01:40 PM

I don't know what to say, as I have just re-read the entire thread, and my brain is saying "uncle!"

(Is that an Americanism?)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Dazbo
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 04:08 PM

Do Americans use twice? I only ask as phrases such as "Seven Time winner of the Tour de France" are creeping into UK usage and really annoy me (surely it should be seven times winner...) but to say "two time winner of..." beggars belief when "twice winner of..." says it all. Mind you I'd find it odd to hear "thrice winner..." but it would make my day. (Once, twice, thrice a lady anyone?)

I'm glad it seems to be a two way street. Are some of the Britishisms appearing in the USA due to the Harry Potter books (e.g. snog) or where they all translated out in the US editions?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 05:10 PM

U.S.
Grounded with respect to keeping kids confined is an extension of the application of the electrical term, electrically in contact with the ground (1884). "Earthed" is an older term for electrically grounded, but I haven't heard it within memory (seen in books).

Two time, seven time, etc., could be newspaper writers' coinage (always striving for emphasis and/or simplification, not always successfully); in speech twice or seven times are still commonly heard.

I think we all tend to pick up usages we hear on the TV or read in the paper.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 07:05 AM

Reviving an old thread with a new example ~~ The Times the other day mentioned a game called "women's field hockey".

We don't have 'field hockey' in this country: we have hockey or ice-hockey. It is American usage to give priority of meaning to the latter and therefore to have to add the [to our ears] otiose modifier "field" to the real game. A Noel Coward character remarks to an American visitor who mentions "horse riding" ~ "We just say 'riding'. The horse is taken for granted." Similarly, hockey-wise, here in UK the field should be taken for granted.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 11:14 AM

I thought grounded was air force, as of someone breaking rules - like doing a victory roll before landing. Or commercial pilots if caught drinking. Or the plane itself, if iffy.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:08 PM

Hockey is the name of the sport at the Olympics; introduced 1908 but permanently added to Summer games in 1924 (FIH, founded in Paris in 1924, now(?) 127 members). Much of its formation can be credited to English "public" schools.

Ice hockey was introduced to the Olympics in 1920 and became part of the Winter program in 1924 (IIHF, founded Paris 1908 as LIHG, now 52 members).
The need to separate the games with modifiers has grown since that time, especially in those countries strongly supportive of the game on ice (Russia, U. S., Canada, etc.) where "hockey" is understood by most people to mean ice hockey.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:38 PM

Agreed, Q. The Americans feel it necessary to modify it with a 'field' to distinguish it from the there predominating 'ice' sort. But it is therefore, as I aver, an Americanism, superfluous in our leading daily paper

~~ the point I made in starting this thread, and have been making thruout it ~~

i.e. that there is nothing wrong with any of these usages where they belong ~ over there ~ but are grey squirrels to our red squirrels when they start to replace &/or render obsolete our own usages.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: meself
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:42 PM

"surely it should be seven times winner..."

I suspect that the "seven-time winner" usage could be justified; in fact, I suspect I could do it myself if I had a couple of hours to nose through Fowler and wrack my brains over the matter - but I don't today. Anyone who missed it the first time through care to weigh in?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:44 PM

If the British public wants gray [sic] squirrels, the gray squirrels will proliferate.

I like red squirrels as much as the next dude [sic], but we're talking [sic] linguistic Darwinism here.